Epping TT Bake off (from pfm)

Given the circumstances regarding stands (as explained on pfm) I don't think there was much option, Steve.

*Any* T/T, not just an LP12, would be significantly hobbled sat on the floor. It's testament to how 'well-sorted' this particular one was that it sounded as good as it did!

Pete,

Many thanks for your informative post. I'll get to it later after tucking into some Welsh roast lamb and mint sauce, washed down with a cheeky little Burgundy! :cheers:

Marco.

P.S Could you just quicky confirm one thing - which Tannoy drive units do you use, oh and also if you're using original crossovers in them or not?

I agree there was no option but this means is that the circumstances were not allowing for a definitive comparison.

I'd really like to see the fruitbox put to bed ;) but I don't think it has as of yet.

The LP-12 was on a massive concrete slab with carpet on it:) That's the perfect support quoted by someone on PF on the Epping thread.

To be honest none of the turntables had proper support (apart from the PL-71 that was sat on a normal hifi rack).

The LP-12 was on a solid base - many hundreds of kilos.
The Garrard was on the low 18mm ply transport box that Mr Coco made for his plinth. The SP-10 was on Mr Coco's Sp-10 deck transport box 18mm ply.

I must try my TT on the floor and see if it changes the sound much. At the moment it's on the top shelf of my metal tubed (albeit sand filled) rack - at about chest height.

The PL-71 really doesn't care what it sits on, within reason.

Was something preventing the other decks from being placed on the rack?
The SP10 is clearly quite heavy.

Hi Pete,

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Richard's system is simply different to mine an follows a different philosophy, emphasising speed and presence whereas A valve/Tannoy system goes about things in a different fashion. I don't really want to get into the minutiae of differences because it all depends on you reference point. One man's 'coloured' is another man's 'depth of tone' and so on.

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Fair enough, dude. I was wondering mainly how you adjusted to the sonic limitations of the Cubes in terms of their physical size, with you being used to huge drivers in large cabinets shifting plenty of air. I've heard lots of musical sounding small speakers, but none I could live with due to their lack of scale. I just wondered how the Cubes coped in that respect, as for example the Audiosmile Kensai (a small speaker I very much admire) do a remarkable job of creating convincing bass despite their miniscule size.

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Regarding Tannoy colourations - yours may be different, as they're in different cabinets, but Tannoys aren't exactly renowned for being neutral. I'm under no illusions that they're uncoloured and I love them despite this (partly that is the flimsy GRF cabinet joining in) because they're colourful and in conjunction with valves bring a life to the music that I value. It's quite possibly distortion, but who cares when they sound this enjoyable. But they're not for everyone.

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I'm still a relative novice when it comes to big Tannoys, so I've far from heard everything there is to hear, but from listening to some examples of the breed, one thing has become clear, and this is that the Lockwoods do sound rather different from the norm. I think it's the fact that they've been designed and voiced as genuine studio monitors (the extremely inert nature of the construction of the cabinets and type of crossovers used influence things here greatly), and so exhibit less of the traditional colorations of current and vintage Tannoy dual-concentrics. The Monitor Red drive units also appear to be more neutral and less coloured sounding than the Gold versions I've heard, and also some of the more modern 'tulip waveguides'.

I can honestly say that I've never heard a pair of speakers before that get so much out of the way of the music, but that also put a huge smile on your face when you listen!

I don't mean to be critical of the original GRF cabinets you're using (you like how they work, so this is all that matters :smoking:), but one thing I learned when researching vintage Tannoy drive units was that the type and size of cabinet used massively influences their performance, and it was generally thought that the original cabinets coloured the sound more, due to being somewhat less inert than more modern versions, which put me off going down that route. This for me was a pity because I really love their retro look!

The Lockwoods, IMO, in comparison, are ugly buggers but it's very much a case of function over form. When you open the backs up and look inside the cabinets it's immediately obvious how much attention to detail has been paid to internal bracing and damping, and even how the shape of the cabinet itself (and port) has been designed to maximise the operation of the drive units. Talking to Roger from Lockwood about this, and the history of the speakers they supplied to the BBC and recording studios, using vintage Tannoy drive units, is a rather enlightening experience :)

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I've had people visit and upon initial listening, they wrinkle their nose and start pointing out that they're a bit coloured and this and then, then over a period of about 10 minutes they trail off, get accustomed to the colouration and enjoy the music.

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Nice one! However, that does sound a bit different to the results I get.

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From what I hear, the Rega arm is not normally a good match with the DL-103 due to the low mass and high rigidity, but this one had a tension bolt running up the middle which would certainly add mass. Perhaps this, coupled with the lightweight plinth allowed the energy fed into the arm by the low compliance cart to be effectively managed.

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Interesting. It's something I've never tried, so can't comment. The theory sounds good, though. Obviously you guys heard it work well, so that's all that matters.

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Whatever the reason, it did show dynamic contracts extremely well, it's just that it was rather raucous with it.

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The "raucous" bit is interesting, though. I guess it depends what you mean by that. If you mean "raucous" in comparison with your Io, which is an altogether more sophisticated performer, I can understand (perhaps I would have used "uncouth" instead?) No matter, but it shouldn't really sound raucous. I've heard the 103 sound like that on numerous occasions in the past and it's usually when there is insufficient mass on the arm (and headshell in particular) and/or the loading isn't right (cue Richard :eyebrows:)).

I've also heard it sound that way when VTA is out. Rega arms are crap for setting VTA accurately (unless Rega cartridges are used or those with similar physical dimensions) because they use spacers, which aren't entirely reliable, so if the arm was slightly 'tail up' this would have made the 103 sound brighter and more fierce than normal. I also wonder what the VTF was set at, as I've also heard the 103 sound as you describe when VTF is set too low (less than the optimal 2.7g).

Anyway, it's just a few ideas as to why it may have sounded that way. I bet that the 103 doesn't sound "raucous" when Richard uses it on his PL-71! ;)

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In the listening tests, it nearly always followed the LP12/Zyx, which tends to compress things and so the comparison tends to magnify this. As the SP10/Io nearly always followed it, it highlighted the crudeness.

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Yep, that would have definitely been a factor. Undoubtedly, even when everything is in its favour, the stock 103 (in its plastic body shell) does sound rather crude in comparison to much more sophisticated and refined cartridges. The various 'pimped' versions, not least the 103SA, go a long way to eradicating this crudeness.

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On the Io/Step-ups - when we initially tried Richard's MM stage, it hissed badly, indicating some kind of problem, so we reverted back to using the MC stage and plugged it in directly which resulted in a very, very quiet sound. As it turned out, I'd forgotten to switch on the magnet. In the meantime, I set my phono stage up and we used that for the initial listening with the Kondo step-up. It was a little bright for my tastes, TBH, probably because I run a 47kOhm load which leaves the MC rising response intact. With the Tannoys, this balances the roll-off over 10kHz (I've measured it, and they definitely do). Really, the Io should see about 12k through the transformer.

In the interests of keeping things consistent, we switched to Richard's MC stage and used the SF-Z set to a 1:10 ratio, rather than 1:100 and this gave a very different sound. Rather too polite for my tastes and constrained dynamics (normally this is one of it's party pieces). I tried using the intermediate ratio, but that didn't work so well. Ultimately, I cam back to my phono stage at the end and I was personally a bit happier, except for the brightness).

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Interesting. For me, it just sounds like a lack of compatibility and also synergy, which is not surprising given the specialist nature of the Io.

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On the SP10 - I've already in the past identified a slight 'greyness' in the midband with the SP10. In a similar way that I hear the differences between valves and transistors. It's a sin of omission - and not in the sense of lacking colouration, but lacking slightly in tonal colour and richness, a slight coolness if you will. As I have identified it myself, I feel it's a fair criticism.

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I find this interesting, as I've heard it myself with some SP10s and some 1210s, too. I suspect that it might be plinth/equipment support/feet related. One of the best SP10s I've heard, and that didn't display the characteristics you mention, was Dave Cawley's, which was housed in a solid wood plinth. My own heavily modified SL-1210 also doesn't display these characteristics, I suspect because of the Mana supports (yes they really do work!!) and the lengths I've gone to ensure that its main component parts synergise together optimally.

Much as I rate high-mass slate plinths (or Corian) for SP10s, I'm beginning to wonder if they are possibly responsible for adding a signature to the sound which causes this "greyness" and lack of tonal colour. It's just a theory, that's all, and perhaps it's also one of the reasons why the PL-71 sounds so good - the wood factor?

It's definitely made me think about plinths more carefully when I get my own fully refurbished SP10 from Dave. I will definitely do some careful research into the whole subject before I commit to the use of any specific material.

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That's why I use such a colourful cartridge and speakers...
As you know, I value tone and colour, so have built my system around that principle.

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That's fair enough, Pete. The bottom line is that you like the results and enjoy your music that way. As you know, I also value tone and colour, but I suspect in a different way to you, and so this means that I apply it differently when assembling my system. If you've read what I wrote about tone and 'flavour' in the HFW/classic cartridge thread, you should get a good handle on my approach as far as that's concerned.

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Of course, transplanting bits into another system is going to have it's issues, but despite that, it was an interesting exercise and we learned a lot.

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Indeed. Bake-offs like this are a fantastic idea and are something that we would like to promote more actively on AOS in future. The guys on Wigwam have been doing it for years :cool:

Marco.

P.S What drivers and crossovers are you using on your Tannoys? I've asked you this a couple of times now but you seemed to have missed it.

Hi Steve,

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The LP-12 was on a massive concrete slab with carpet on it That's the perfect support quoted by someone on PF on the Epping thread.

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Mmm... I've never tried that, so I can't say definitely what the results would be, but it goes against what I've learned about T/Ts over the years (specifically springy suspended decks like LP12s), where I've found that they generally perform best on some sort of rigidly coupled wall-shelf, or on a more lightweight, less 'massy' approach such as used on a QS Reference wall-shelf, or even better, on multi-phase Mana (wall shelf of not) ;)

Wall-shelves tend to work great with T/Ts because up there they're less susceptible to picking up vibration - the worst enemy of all turntables.

Surely just being plonked on the floor, carpeted concrete slab or not, would make it susceptible to picking up all sorts of floor-borne vibrations? All the slab was doing I'd imagine was adding rigidity and mass, the latter in my experience being something that the LP12 doesn't particularly like.

However, it seems to have performed ok, but one can't help wondering how much better it would've been on a proper equipment support...

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The PL-71 really doesn't care what it sits on, within reason.

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I'm curious, Richard. How many different types of supports have you tried with the PL-71 and were any of them wall-shelves? My Techy definitely responds well to being placed on a proper equipment rack (as has any other T/T I've used) :)

Marco.

The theory from pfm:

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Evidently, the carpet keeps outside vibration entering the deck to a minimum as well as minimizing subassembly oscillations all disturbing the groove/stylus interface less thanks to the gripping ability of the carpet when the TT is placed correctly (push the LP-12 down into the carpet a bit making sure all four TT feet are as stable as they can be considering the slight compliance of thin carpet.)

You do have to watch out for the baseboard being pushed up against the tonearm lead if the carpet is much thicker than commerical grade or fouling the lead directly if no baseboard is used. As you know, sound quality will be severely compromised if this is allowed.

I think it's fair to say the direct-to-carpet method eliminates energy storage if you think about it compared to any stand that I'm aware of at least. I'd say it's worth experimenting with.

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Interesting. I'll need to try this sometime, although it's hardly practical having kit on the floor. Energy storage, though, is precisely something that QS Reference acrylic stands deal with very effectively.

I also suspect that Mana supports would deal more effectively with eliminating vibration from entering a T/T than when it's is sat on the floor, no matter what is underneath it. The design priciples of Mana are very effective in that area, particularly where multi-levels are used. One to experiment with I think in future :cool:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Surely just being plonked on the floor, carpeted concrete slab or not, would make it susceptible to picking up all sorts of floor-borne vibrations? All the slab was doing I'd imagine was adding rigidity and mass, the latter in my experience being something that the LP12 doesn't particularly like.

However, it seems to have performed ok, but one can't help wondering how much better it would've been on a proper equipment support...

I'm curious, Richard. How many different types of supports have you tried with the PL-71 and were any of them wall-shelves? My Techy definitely responds well to being placed on a proper equipment rack (as has any other T/T I've used) :)

Marco.

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My house is built on a three foot thick concrete slab about 30ft by 50ft - the turntable (as well as the house) sit on that.

I have been over 40 years doing this, what do you think I haven't tried. It is only suspended suspension turntables or rigid no suspension turntables that suffer from this to any great extent - the PL-71 is neither.

From reading all of the thread on PFM the issue about TT's on the floor derive from the fact that the info about TT owners having to bring their own tables was lost when the original thread proposing the bake off got deleted in part and closed down. Therefore no one had a table for their TT. Richard had assumed that those taking part had remembered this requirement. Frankly I am a bit surprised that no one did bring thee own tables, supports etc. I for one would not attend any bake off (especially one designed to test out LP12, and others as fully set up in order to answer some questions and heated discussions as to what was best etc)unless my items could be as close to how I use them at home I.E fully optimised.

Richard I found your set up very interesting. I am sure many on AOS would love to see photos of your very unique set up. Maybe you might like to put some photos in the gallery section of the forum. It has helped me see where you are coming from and get an idea of your listening room.


Regards D S D L