Squeezebox Classic compared to TC-7520

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Originally Posted by nb2

Well I'd go even higher than 400 CD palyer for the Squeezebox dac quality.
You can have differences, but that is more a question of personal taste, than real higher quality.

The more I listen to different things, the more I think you finally need to spend some good money in a dac, if you want a real step up with good margin from this Squeezebox thing.

I'm quite certain it is useless to change the dac, if your speaker+amp setup can be upgraded for the same kind of money.

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For a Squeezebox owner though.....
IMHO theres NO WAY spending the price of a Beresford 7520 on amp/speaker upgrades (less than £160) would make any improvement.

But I titally agree on the general feeling of speakers first then amp then source.
I recently discovered room interaction with speakers plays a MAJOR part in the overall sound.

In my case, moving my setee back from the wall 4 inches amd removing the Toe-in from my speakers (having them facing straight forward) changed the sound significantly.

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Originally Posted by Gazjam

For a Squeezebox owner though.....

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Of course

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Originally Posted by Gazjam

IMHO theres NO WAY spending the price of a Beresford 7520 on amp/speaker upgrades (less than £160) would make any improvement.

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Not sure about that.
I think I could have done that when I replaced my amplifier.
The Creek evolution amplifier is now at 342£ on superfi.co.uk ...
It has been the case for several monthes I think.
Ok that's because there is now the new evolution 2

In my opinion, a lot of people could sell their current amplifier for less than 200£, buy this one now, and make a HUGE improvement, much bigger than a dac replacement.

I bought the Evolution 2 new because I wanted the direct AV input, I wanted to buy from my dealer where I made all tests, and anyway, superfi.co.uk doesn't ship to France.
(My dealer had also a discounted Creek evolution, but I choose the new one)

When I tried different amplifiers, this was the old version now discounted that I tested.
It wasn't in my list, I wanted to buy a Cyrus, a Primare or a Naim, all really more expensive than the Creek.
And I had to aknowledge that I really prefered the Creek (on my current speakers and for my ears of course, it could have been different with different speakers)

Strange thing to have to convince yourself that a much cheaper product than the ones you were looking at, is finally the best for you ...
(I really wanted the Primare, the more expensive, to be the best, because it is so beautiful ...)

Another way to get a free upgrade for a lot of people.
I think (that's just me) that many people have speakers too big for their room.
They could get HUGE improvement, replacing them by a more suitable model, even if this is a cheaper one.

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Originally Posted by nb2

You are talking about transports for the TC-7520
Did you make those comparison on the same amp+speaker setup, with the same material ?

If not, I'm not sure differences your hear come from the couple transport+TC-7520

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Sorry for the late reply, only just noticed this post.

Yes, I've always used the same amp + speaker setup for comparisons - Muscial Fidelity A3.2 pre-power and Shahinian Arcs - Quite a revealing setup (see my recent post in the gallery for pics). The only thing that was changed in the setup was the transport, so there's no question of where the differences were coming from. The transport is fundamental to how the DAC will sound.

I have a number of reference tracks stored losslessly which I have been using over the last 5 years or so that I have been using a computer setup so I am very familiar with how they sound or should sound now.

Have you tried using Foobar on your PC with the ASIO output plugin? If you're using anything else (this is assuming you're running Windows) then there are definite improvements to be gained.

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Originally Posted by lovejoy

Sorry for the late reply, only just noticed this post.

Yes, I've always used the same amp + speaker setup for comparisons - Muscial Fidelity A3.2 pre-power and Shahinian Arcs - Quite a revealing setup (see my recent post in the gallery for pics). The only thing that was changed in the setup was the transport, so there's no question of where the differences were coming from. The transport is fundamental to how the DAC will sound.

I have a number of reference tracks stored losslessly which I have been using over the last 5 years or so that I have been using a computer setup so I am very familiar with how they sound or should sound now.

Have you tried using Foobar on your PC with the ASIO output plugin? If you're using anything else (this is assuming you're running Windows) then there are definite improvements to be gained.

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All right that's interesting.
I'll be quite busy for a few days.
Not sure I'll be able to test a lot of things.
I never tried things like ASIO drivers.
Mainly because when I really want top quality, it is through flac files and squeezebox.
In this case, ASIO are useless.

Spotify has its own software.
For Deezer the interface is simply a browser (I usually use Google Chrome)

For movies or files which are not yet in my Squeezecenter library, I use VLC (from videolan.org) or the media player from satsuki pack.

I had a look at your setup pictures, it is very nice.
What's interesting with the squeezebox is that the computer can be in another room (ethernet wired is perfect up to 100 meters length ... and wifi is also a solution)
It is far more flexible than usb.
If money is not too tight, a squeezebox classic is quite cheap, even new, and can be returned with some dealers if you are not satisfied.
(I choose the classic over the duet, the duet controller seems nice, but it seems to have more issues than the classic, is more expensive, and the classic has a remote much easier to use than it seems).

[Edit]
which are your reference tracks ?
did you try others dacs than the TC-7520 ?

It should be a very interesting comparison. I'll be intrigued by your results. Certainly if you play the same FLACs through Foobar/ASIO as you would normally through your squeezebox.

I have a number of reference tracks that I have on rotation. Some are there to provide a test of dynamics, soundstage and excitement:
Tracks from Vangelis' "1492 Conquest of Paradise"
Shellac's "Excellent Italian Greyhound" (24-bit FLACs)
Muddy Waters' "Folk Singer"
Then for the emotional involvement where the transports really tend to show themselves to be failing:
Aimee Mann "Video" (From "The forgotten arm")
Neil Finn "Driving me mad" (From "One nil")
Shearwater "The snow leopard" (from "Rooks")
Kate Bush "Moments of pleasure" (from "The red shoes")
Then for shear 'rock out' value
Genesis "Firth of fifth"
Aphrodite's Child "The four horsemen"
Nirvana "Tourettes"
Future of the left "Manchasm"

Not an exhaustive list, but my current favourites when setting up a system.

In terms of other DACs, I still have a 7510 which got modded with new op-amps - the 7520 is WAY better. Before that I had a Densen B-410 CD player (either Beresford with a good source wipes the floor with it in my system) and then before that I had a DDDAC kit (from www.dddac.de) which was also excellent but being a kit encouraged me to tweak way too much, until I ended up breaking it :(.

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Originally Posted by lovejoy

Shellac's "Excellent Italian Greyhound" (24-bit FLACs)

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Thanks for your playlist.
I'm going to see if I can get some of them since I have few of them in flac.

One thing I forgot, if I remember correctly, the squeezebox cannot handle 24 bits.
Older versions of squeezecenter played them anyway forgetting some bits, now in recent versions, 24 bits material is converted to 16bits by the server before being sent to the squeezebox.

If your are really interested in 24 bits files, you should take the transporter instead of the squeezebox, but it is much more expensive, and may be others solutions should be considered.

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Originally Posted by Gazjam

IMHO theres NO WAY spending the price of a Beresford 7520 on amp/speaker upgrades (less than £160) would make any improvement.

But I totally agree on the general feeling of speakers first then amp then source.

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I can only agree with you Gaz.

IMHO, in the past (say 25yrs ago) one had to spend approximately equal sums on source to amplification to speakers to get the optimal sonic output from your system. Today, with the dramatic electronic advances/improvements and cheaper electronic manufacturing relative cost, that same costing ratio is now approaching; 1 unit for source (including DAC) to 5 units for amplification to 10 units for speakers.

IMHO a HiFi system is like a chain in being only as good as the weakest link. Without adequate amp/speakers to enable relative quality output, there is a limit (an absolute ceiling) to the benefit one will gain from upgrading the source (including DAC) beyond a certain point. But due to current costs, the source/DAC’s are the cheapest to experiment with until you hit that ceiling!

IMO the Squeezebox analog out suffers from "sins of omission" which means that it doesnt try very hard to add zing or relentless hifi type characteristics to its presentation. It is therefore quite listenable and many people would be quite happy with the sound. However, using the 7520 with LM4562 op-amps IMO gave a more open and realistic rendition to the music, especially on vocals and stringed instruments. Much more musical. This is on co-ax cable. Using toslink I found that the quality was more congested and lacked air and extension.

Agree... get the best speakers you can afford (without thinking you'll upgrade them next year), and Then start piecing together a system. You'll get the full pleasure each piece has to offer from the get go.

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Originally Posted by nb2

... if I remember correctly, the squeezebox cannot handle 24 bits.

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Actually the SB can handle up to 24 bit and 48 kHz. If you want to handle 24/96, you'll need a Transporter though.