Now you've cracked digital James,
Have a play with a Roon free trial with Qobuz,
SO much good music out there, if you can do digital!
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Now you've cracked digital James,
Have a play with a Roon free trial with Qobuz,
SO much good music out there, if you can do digital!
I've got an SMSL Sanskrit DAC put away, I must check out if it has the same chip etc as the SU-1 (I think it's an AKM) as it might work nicely in my system if it's that good. I used to use it with my RPi/headphone amp set up but never tried it in the hi-fi.
Just looked it up, I think I've got the 10th anniversary MK2 which has the same AK4493 chip, result [emoji16]
Nearly the same Lawrence - SMSL Su-1 has AK4493S chip.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
I can't imagine there's much difference, I wonder what the S denotes.
A bit of bedtime reading:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
https://www.akm.com/us/en/about-us/n...k4493sak4490r/
SMSL SU-1 DAC with CDP
Albums and tracks used for evaluation.
Ballake Sissoko - Album Tomora - Track-Berekoy
Sera una Noche - Album La Segunda - Tracks La Roca and Tauigto Militar
Agnes Obel - Album - Philharmonics - Track - Close Watch
Horror Inc - Album Briefly Eternal - Track-Phowa
John Campbell - Album Howlin Mercy - Track - Down in the hole ( Yes that old chestnut)
Set up 2
SMSL SU-1 DAC -USB - Rotel RCD 965BX - Croft 25R+ - Croft 7
Having had great results with File based audio I thought it would be good to give the SMSL SU-1 a try with a CDP using it as an off board DAC. My old Rotel still manages to spin those shiny discs so I lashed it all up via coaxial output from CDP to coax input on DAC. What I was to then hear was a surprise as in previous sessions my File based audio had always been my preferred route for listening to digital audio but this time the tables turned in favour of the CDP. What I heard on this first listening session with the SMSL SU-1 hooked up to the CDP was some of the very best digital performance I have heard in my system.
On the track Berekoy by Ballake Sissoke the string texture of the Kora not only improved but took on more weight and tangibility. It moved one step forward closer to reality and had greater transparency than previously heard via the MacBook Air. I held my breath as I wondered if this was just a one off with this particular track but it wasn’t.
Horror Inc - The Track Phowa took on more weight and even larger presence in the room and I noticed the bass performance of my speakers were now exciting the floor with huge impact and power.
Agnes Obel the track Close Watch had a more solid feel to it even though it has an ethereal sound. Imaging went up a notch and dynamics improved.
John Campbell - Down in the hole. I noticed on this track his vocal quality and imaging was noticeably better locked dead central and more 3D. The recorded ambient sound of this track sounded even more cavernous/spacious. There was a lush almost luxurious tone to the whole track, rich and very analogue in its sound. Very impressive but my final track got the goose pimps up.
Sera una Noche. The track La Roca starts off fairly slow and stays that way with brass instruments , an accordion and some drums. It is recorded in a fabulous natural ambient space and at first you think it sounds a bit of dreary until you hear the first drum beat then your interest is captured. What I heard via the SMSL SU-1 DAC was stunning. The huge soundstage and massive weight captured in this recording defy belief. For a moment it felt like my system had disappeared and I had reached complete transparency, nothing between me and the music. The sound was huge, controlled and spine tingling.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ca88c373_k.jpgECE029ED-9351-4D22-A10F-D174FDB0C9EF by , on Flickr
So did the SMSL SU-1 convert me to digital - err not quite….?:)
Having listened to SMSL Su-1 extensively now for the past week there are a number of factors that influenced the sound I heard from this DAC. First of all, and forgive me if this is obvious, I listened to this DAC in my system which is based on tube amplifiers and a fair bit of what I heard was influenced by the amps.
The SMSL Su-1 is I believe a neutral sounding DAC and therefore may sound quite different with Solid State amps especially those leaning to the more neutral or analytical side. For me using valve amplification with the SMSL Su-1 was a perfect marriage and it suited this DAC and my system very well. As always system synergy is what you hope for but don't always get. It also allowed me to hear my amps with a very neutral source unlike my vinyl which err maybe not quite as neutral!. :)
I get a large soundstage and great dynamics using the Croft set up so for that to be heard with the SMSL DAC is a big plus. Maybe the amplification was adding a bit of richness / juiciness to the proceedings but I like those 2nd order harmonics and distortion. I am not one for a completely neutral, zero distortion and hyper detailed forensic system. This leaves me cold and just gets you chasing detail and pixel peeping. Impressive maybe at first but not really conducive to long listening sessions and an enjoyable musical experience.
So I would suggest choice of amplification and speakers plus room interaction is critical and I feel I had all by ducks in a row when plugging the SMSL SU-1 into my system. It actually allowed me to hear the rest of my system and its performance for what it was which was very interesting and informative. With a turntable and cartridge there are so many variables that can skew the sound one way or another.
The SMSL DAC was a joy to listen too and blurred some of the distinct lines I have always heard between vinyl and digital. As I have mentioned it sounded neither particularly digital or completely analogue and probably was doing as Martin (Macca) has suggested which was to not throw any sound of its own into the mix. This therefore would suggest I was listening to a reconstruction of the digital recording without any embellishment from the DAC.
But even though I accept all that and agree with it I never the less still feel that digital audio does have a sound of its own, like vinyl has a sound of its own. The only way I can describe this is the perception of a "processing" of the sound. It does not sound completely natural like an all analogue system. This is how I hear digital. OK no more nasty harshness or clinical etching unless your system has these aspects already but there is still the awareness that digital audio has this processed nature.
The SMSL SU-1 allowed me to hear a smooth presentation with great presence and dynamics that on occasion could do some things my vinyl system can’t .But towards the end of last nights session I did some A-B comparisons of some of my favourite music which I know intimately. When I put the vinyl version back on it simply burst the digital bubble and I was bought back down to earth again and this was witnessed by other listeners in the room too. Where my vinyl beat the SMSL SU-1 was in two key areas. Natural sounding and realism.
Anyway that is the end of my review of this fantastic little DAC. I can’t remember enjoying listening to any other DAC more in my system and it let me listen to music for long periods without any fatigue. At £67 this must be the best value audio device I have ever owned and has gone a long way to improve the listening experience of my digital set up.
If its brought your digital closer to your Vinyl James that's a brilliant thing, especially for under £100.
Great write up mate, an enjoyable read.
Great review James. I may treat myself to one of these :)
Excellent find and write up James. I know what you mean with the 'processing', I put that down to the DeltaSigma conversion unfortunately which is par for the course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
However the price/performance now is astounding, as you allude to.
It would make a good stocking filler!:)Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
Cheers Alan I am glad I am not the only one who hears this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebottle
We are living it great times when you can buy products that have excellent price/performance.
A true audio bargain mate, :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
Great experimentation, as ever, Jim!
I keep trying.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakefield Turntables
I could be tempted to bring my Soekris R2R DAC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Would take the DeltaSigma out the equation.
Gary
I have had a Soekris in the system thanks Gary. Also had a few Chord DACs (FPGA). My last DAC had Burr brown chips and I have had Sabre DACs, they all sounded digital unfortunately, that's just the nature of the beast. Maybe R2Rs have a magic sauce?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryder5
No matter which way you slice and dice it digital has so far always had a slightly processed sound in my experience. Sounds great otherwise.
Pretty much like all vinyl sounds like vinyl.:)
Never got on with Sabre based Dacs, all sounded too ‘etched’ for my taste.
I have heard examples I think of most of the chips out there and I agree the Sabre can be a bit aggressive. Problem with all DACs is that whatever chip they use it all comes down to the implementation in the finished product. PSU and analogue output can completely change the sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
exactly right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
same Dac chip in a different Dac won’t sound the same.
worth getting Psu and output stage right, more influence (imo) than choice of Dac chip, unless you go FPGA like Chord, DCS and PS Audio, then it's down to Software.
even with that uber solution, if the PSU and analogue output stage isn't done right, the Dacs sound will take a big hit.
all a bit of a tangled weave this digital stuff.
the 1’s and 0’s part was done a while ago, it’s all the other stuff where innovation comes from I think?
In another thread I was asking for help understanding what was going on with the Spotify feed to my Dacs when using Spotify. I have 2 Dacs that take DSD processing a Topping D30 (up to 24bit/192 khz and an ifi Zen Dac v2 which takes up to 32bit/384khz. It shows a different coloured LED according to what it is processing.
It tells me that it is processing/giving out DSD. I understand that ASIO which windows uses converts this to PCM at 32bits and streams a "native" signal. I have the option to select a whole menu of different bit and sampling rates which I am now wondering if I am being tricked into thinking that the higher the rate the better the sound, or is the case that regardless of what I input, ASIO and DSD will put out what it receives? Sorry if this sounds a bit mixed up, but I am.
Link to ifi explanation here :-
https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/dop-versu...-similarities/
Totally agree Gary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
So much of the gear we use depends on top notch power supply, get that right and everything else has a good chance of sounding decent. I think amps more than DACs are dependant on great PSU and as I have found the better the PSU the better the sound. I use a Linear PSU at 5v with the SMSL Su-1 DAC and the USB /SPDIF convertor and it helps out a fair bit. Sound is definitely more spacious and effortless.
none of this will make any difference, you can't add what is not there to begin with whether you upsample, convert to DSD, whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin
Always telling that people need the little lights to tell them what 'resolution' they are listening to.
I'd just switch it all off. Spotify premium is a long way below CD (320Kbit/s compared to 1411kbit/s) and tests show most people cannot distinguish between them and those who can don't find it easy. So doing all sorts of magic tricks with it is certainly pointless.
Thanks for your thoughts. I have no problem with the way it sounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Mibbay a bit harsh Mate? :scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Digitals not as simple as some make out, sure, it WORKS but it's not always optimised to be its best.
I say you gotta try oversampling filters, upsampling, DSP and all that stuff, because even though its 'Digital', it still is privy to the rules of Synergy in your system.
Even in the mico universe of your Digital playback chain, Hell even your Dac or digital transport Topology.
This Games subjective,
Ones room/noise profile/ preferred system flavour ain't anyone elses, so there's no "one size fits all" outside of pedantic hifi dogma
I enjoy listening to Spotify through my Apple TV, it sounds great.
No one size fits all Amigo, it's all good.
(I enjoy other ways to play my music too, all equally enjoyable, or I wouldn't be doing em :) )
Think I am being misunderstood here, There's nothing wrong with Spotify, that's what I'm saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
There's nothing wrong with Spotify, yeah.
All singing from the same Hymn Sheet. :)
I spent today messing with room acoustics again! My room is not acoustically symmetrical as my furniture does not allow this currently and although I thought I had sorted first reflection points I have had a re think as I discovered an imbalance from my speakers. Luckily I can use the dual volume controls on the Croft to balance things somewhat but I think a more effect solution will be some more room treatment.
I need to build at least another panel or maybe a larger panel for the left hand side of the room so as soon as I can get some more materials I will get building again. It is very strange how sound imaging from your speakers is located by your hearing as obviously the speakers bounce the high frequencies off any reflective surface they can. And as I have found out room treatment can untangle the crazy reflections and produce much better imaging and depth from the speakers.
So I will be back to the staple gun asap!
The SMSL -Su1 DAC is still surprising me with its fabulous performance and is definitely the best bang for buck device I have bought and used in my system. It would be highly amusing to compare this DAC against some "High End" DACs out there as I am sure in a blind listening test it would whop a fair few. I have been reading a number of other folk around the audio community have indeed found this to be the case.
This got me thinking, are DACs at the upper end of the market just either overcomplicated, overpriced or both as indeed the job they have to do is mainly done by the DAC chip which costs peanuts. The rest of of the DACs design is really where the costs ramp up especially complicated PSU and clocking and not least features and Casework. But at the end of the day I am sure this all has marginal gains and like expensive cables there is a good sprinkling of snake oil.
Of course proof of all this is in the listening and as I have found from personal experience some of the more expensive DACs out there are very ordinary sounding and only marginally superior to very cheap DACs in SQ. Their features, casework and complexity and build maybe superior but the actual listening experience quite often does not justify the price. Again I liken this to my experience with cables where I have had some extremely expensive cables in my system and they have sounded no better or actually worse than some cheap cables.
To put things into perspective I have found far greater differences between cartridges and turntables than I have ever between DACs and there is certainly a massive difference in listening experience between speakers but maybe less so with amplifiers, however even these have greater impact on listening experience than different DACs.
All the rest of the mumbo jumbo around DACs ie R2R vs Delta Sigma vs FPGA , multiple power supplies, ultra clocking, topology, connection capabilities, Hi Rez etc etc just dances around the head of a pin. It begs the question just how many ways does digital audio need to try and resolve something that was meant to have been 'perfect sound forever". Apparently if you have followed digital audio for the last 40 years there have been unbelievable amounts of change which have resolved this perfect sound for ever. Digital was meant to have been sorted 40 years ago but if you have followed every twist and turn there has been always been something else discovered that has resulted in better digital sound.
In my experience it never was perfect and never will be.....?
A pic of the inside my SMSL - SU1 showing the AKM4493S velvet sound technology chip and some nice Japanese Rubicon caps.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b4386212_k.jpg617778A3-022C-4634-83D4-88FB02C235A7 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]Jurl], on Flickr
AKM data sheet on the chip used. It has some fantastic digital resolving capabilities.
https://www.akm.com/us/en/products/a...dac/ak4493seq/
I bought a behringer Ultramatch Pro some years ago mainly as it had an upsampling facility and I was interested to see what that brought the table. It is a real swiss army knife type of thing which is really for the pro user but at £100 I thought it was worth a punt. It uses the AKM4393VF Dac chip. I have not been able to find any info as to how this compares with the AKM 4493SEQ. However it was clearly good enough for Mr Lampizator to use his talents to improve on the Ultramatch (see link) and I found details on Audio Science Review where 2 versions of the RME-ADI-2 Dac were tested one with the 4393VF and the other an ESS Sabre chip. Neither showed much difference in the tests carried out.
The Behringer has AES/EBU digital input as well as all the usual digital inputs except USB. It has Balanced digital outs and balanced analogue outs. It is a really good performer and my most used or "go to" Dac, probably because I know its performance inside out having used it for several years.
So if your experience is similar to mine then there is nothing shabby about a lot of Dacs in the £100 bracket. I recently bought an ifi Zen Dac v2 as it was £115 at Richer Sounds. This is a USB only Dac using a Burr Brown Dac chip. There is RCA and balanced outs and the ability to uses one of 6 different filters including DSD and MQA. I use this in DSD mode and it is pretty good, a bit more in your face than the Behringer but nicely musical.
http://lampizator.eu/lampizator/tran...behringer.html
The AK4493 seems to be the 'go to' chip for reasonably priced high performance Dacs, the Topping E30 II uses it too.
Think it is one of the newer DAC chips AK produced after the factory fire. It certainly packs a high specification and it is used in their velvet sound DACs - whatever that maybe...???Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebottle
I'm not sure it's the SEQ Velvet chip though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebottle
Interesting Rob. I would certainly like to hear a Lampizator but I have a feeling the soundstage on them maybe a bit too big by all accounts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin
I would not be put off by what is said about the soundstage. I have 8 Dacs all of different vintage and different Dac chips and the Behringer does not stand out in that respect. You may have a problem getting hold of one as I am not sure they are made any more. There are 2nd hand ones for sale on ebay but if they have been used in a pro set up may be a bit battered. It could also be a sideways step for you unless you are intending to "Lamp" it. I modified loads of stuff over many years, but those mods seemed a bit of a step too far for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Interestingly there is going to be a review coming up of a Lampizator DAC build which was I think made available freely from one of his earlier DAC designs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin
It will have 3 separate power supplies and is doable as a DIY project so I will be keen to see how that goes. I will post it up on here when its available.
Pointlessly complicated and pointlessly expensive.
I can see lots of reasons for not wanting a cheap Chinese DAC like Topping or SMSL - don't like the looks, the build quality, concerns over reliability/longevity, doesn't have some feature that is required, ethical issues with buying Chinese products, no bragging rights on forums or with hi-fi cronies.
But it's a fact that they do the task of digital to analogue conversion perfectly (or as perfectly as is possible).
I actually think a lot of the cheap Chinese DACs look great, unobtrusive and discreet. The larger more expensive bling DAC cases look gaudy and excessive to me. I would want to hide them away as many of them just look OTT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
I agree with you regarding the cheap Chinese DACs ability to convert almost perfectly;) however what I am not sure about is the influence power supplies and analogue output stage has on the sound. My bet would be it does manipulate the sound somewhat but whether that is accurate or veering away from the "truth" or not is a guess. I think much of the extra stuff on higher end DACs is just there to make the sound more "palatable"?:) ( analogue??)
well you can see from measurements taken from the analogue outputs (so that includes power supply, analogue output stage, in fact everything) that noise and distortion is negligible at all audible frequencies. So it's not a guess, by those parameters performance is indeed as perfect as it needs to be. The signal going to pre or power amp is accurate to the source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I was listening to my Topping D30 today which was gifted to me recently out of the blue by a mate in exchange for some Pass Amp boards I gifted to him. Nice performer and is "up my street". Googled what is inside it and it is a CS4398. Years ago there was a thread on here about modding a cheap Dac board with a CS4397 in it. I only dug it out the other day and thought that I should give this more air time:)
So in fact all the additional "clean" power supplies and analogue output stage (op amps) actually count for nothing when analysed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
That's the difference between being "objective" and being "subjective". ;)
There are some DACs with internal power supplies that bleed noise into the signal. So it's possible that sometimes a better power supply will helpQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Better just to buy one that's been designed with some care to such things in the first place though.
I know op amp 'rolling' is a thing but then so is astrology. Maybe in some circumstances improvements can be had, but again, just get something that doesn't need improving to work optimally.
There’s a saying.
“Music is just squiggly air”
In Hifi terms I'd add to that and say music is squiggly VOLTAGE.
Voltage being analogue,
It’s privy to noise, variances in impedance and all the other electrical stuff.
Digitals never been just about 1s and 0s, or what type of Dac chip you have fitted.
it’s a SYSTEM, and as such it’s down to implementation and synergy even at a component level.
Its easy (relatively speaking) to throw together a Dac that “works” (or measures well :eyebrows:) but getting one to play music that can move you is another thing I think?
I’ve owned a fair few dacs over they years, all different price points and heard differences in them all.
As James alludes to,
what is it that makes a good Dac sound the way it does?
Its a system, everything depends on everything else.
In my experience there are three main aspects.
Assuming 'good enough' case dampening and no leaky RFI/EMI,
Its the quality of the Power Supply, Analogue output stage and competancy of the digital design.
In that order.
Power supply is the big ticket item for me, I've upgraded PSU's and improved the quality of incoming AC in a fair few bits of kit now and always a significant step up.
The latest is with a separate linear PSU powering separately the analogue output stage of my Dac.
Also upgraded the Dacs output transformers on the analogue board - I.e. better quality power - to great effect.
The Music that hits our ears is “wiggly voltage”, and it terms of the Dac if power supply quality and quality of the analogue output bit isn't done right the music suffers - far more (imo) than what conversion chip in in your Dac may or may not do.
Anyways
As always, its just a thought.
voltage isn't analogue it's just voltage. Digital information is represented by a varying voltage, as is an analogue waveform.
A DAC just converts one to the other.
Yes there's lots of ways that can get screwed up. But the analogue output of the DAC is the end point of that process. We can see at that point if anything got screwed up or not.
Your right Martin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Though voltage is also a varying voltage.
Its analogue...conceptually speaking (which wot I waz)
I.e. its not 'on' or 'off'
Its ALL analogue.
It's a waveform.
My point was that voltage (of any flavour) is subject to external factors, electrically speaking.
And yup,
The output stage just reflects what's came before, kinda like Ivor Tefunbruns's 'garbage in garbage out' analogy...
(i'll get my coat) :)
I always run my DACs with a linear power supply as I have found it is generally good practice to use the best power supply you have with a DAC as it prevents most unwanted electrical noise polluting the digital circuits.
It is a measurable and quantifiable thing that noise can be generated from the PSU and feed into whatever piece of kit you are using and corrupt the overall sound quality to some extent. Now I don't have the ability to run my current DACs analogue stage separately with a LPS but at least the digital section should be OK.
Whatever theories of other peoples experiences maybe with DACs I can appreciate they may not hear any difference but my own listening experience is such that running a DAC with a LPS brings about a more fluid and smoother sound which also has slightly more ability to show imaging and spaciousness in the sound stage. Conversely removing an LPS and using a SMPS brings about a slight coarsening/hardening of the sound and flattening of the soundstage.
It does not bring about anymore detail or transform the DAC massively but I can hear the difference none the less. Why it does this and how maybe a complicated theoretical but measurable actuality. I presume that electrical noise somehow alters some electrical components so they are adversely affected. I am not sure about how it affects the actually digital signal as such as I think the PLL circuit compensates for any corruption of data and so the packets of data are always reconstructed accurately in order to produce the final audible sound. However something is going on and power supply has a big influence somewhere in the chain.
Regarding a DACs performance I think as Gary has mentioned it is system dependant and therefore any given DAC can sound and perform quite differently depending on what it is hooked up to. The higher performing and resolving your system is maybe the more noticeable the differences maybe between different DACs.
It must also be recognised that the person listening subjectively hears the DACs performance or not as the case maybe. Some people maybe very sensitive to the sound a DAC produces where as some cannot hear any difference at all. This is purely down to their listening/ aural ability, their system and their subjective opinion.
So I don't dispute there are differences between DACs, however I have a highly resolving system and bat like ears and notice incredibly small changes in whatever I am listening too but my experience in listening to all the DACs I have heard would suggest there is not a massive night and day difference between any competently designed DAC just marginal differences in presentation and detail retrieval. Again this may come down to system synergy and how you hear a DAC in your room. This often gets blown out of proportion I feel and is not as significant as differences in other components.
I use linear PSs with all my Dacs all made by me. I was a member of many fora years ago where the DIY threads were very busy. On EDIT there was interest in well designed regulators for critical low noise use and 2 types of reg were designed by Teddy Pardo the Teddy Reg and the Power Reg for amplifier circuits and were the subject of a group buy.
"Teddy Pardo Audio is the world leading provider of high quality linear power supplies for audio equipment. Our vast experience in modding and building high-end audio equipment, taught us a major lesson: always start with the power supply!"
https://teddypardo.com/#:~:text=Tedd...power%20supply!
Another group buy was for a JLH Ripple Eater (John Linsley Hood) on the Rock Grotto forum
https://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/rock-g...pple-eater.pdf
EDIT Pink Fish Media - not Wigwam! https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/thre...eddyreg.39990/
If these are any interest to you I still have a board or two and some of the 2SA1930's and 2SC5171's the other transistors are readily available.
2SA1930's and 2SC5171's are for current limiting but if you don't need them they can be left. Details are in the build guide.
I put one of these in a separate box with DC connectors at both ends so that I can insert it between the PS and what ever I am powering, some others are built in.
Good to get another confirmation LPS is a worthwhile upgrade to use with a DAC. I know from amplifier design it also one of the most crucial aspects in their construction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin
I was watching an interesting review of a number of power supplies recently used to power a DAC, these include SMPS and Linear and the results were similar to what I experience. It also may explain why I am getting such good results with my SMSL SU-1 DAC which relies totally on an off board PSU to power it.