Printable View
i am confused...what is this "caiman" you guys speak of? will this be an upgraded TC7520 with the Mc5/6 mod?, new dac chip, and opamps? will it be using 4562 opamps and not compatible with 4032? :please:
also, when can we expect this new "caiman" to be available. estimated price tag?
It's a limited edition by Stan,with a 64x oversampling chip,I think the only commercial DAC around to offer this.Not sure when it will be available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lingling1337
Guys help out here because they want to, not because they have to.
Its a good bunch on here, but maybe its bad form after only 11 posts to come on here and try to be a cunny funt?
Lets try again, we're all friendly on here :)
sounds very interesting. stan, couldn't you just offer this as an upgrade package instead of making it a limited edition? :scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
i'm really liking my current TC7520 with the 4032 opamps. but definitely want to give the caiman an audition in the future. i have poor electronic knowledge and soldering skills too. :unfair:
The Caiman is more of a 'statement' DAC, designed to be a collector's item and at the same time leave the PCM179X series DACs for dead. But it's outside my own retail price comfort zone, so I don't fancy banking on that level of pricing for my daily bread.Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioFile808
A more intriguing prospect for TC-7520 owners is the forthcoming Caiman power supply. It won't be ready for some time yet according to the factory (undergoing EU type approval certification and those test houses take their time), but the prototype is so good I am hoping to offer a money back guarantee to European buyers if it doesn't improve even the bog standard TC-7520. I'll get a few samples and send them out as loaners for a few people to try out and comment on.
Stan
Hi Stan,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
Can I put my name down as a candidate for a loaner please? I am seriously in the market for the new PSU on the understanding that your opinion as to the improvement it offers is fulfilled (as your opinions usually are ;)). Whilst I don't have the ears, knowledge or experience in such matters as other members of the forum, if I can appreciate the improvement it must be significant ! :lol:
I shan't fall out with you or stop dealing with you if you can find better candidates :lolsign:.
Cheers,
Thank you, that makes much more sense. I'll stick to the standard opamps then.Quote:
Originally Posted by leo
stan, how many units of this limited edition caiman would you be making? i am definitely interested in trying it but don't think i have the funds to afford another dac right now.
Congratulations matey !Quote:
Originally Posted by lingling1337
You've been on here for five minutes and have started insulting people already.
The quote is just one from a number of slights your postings seem to contain.
You haven't even had the decency to say hello in the entrance hall - you'll find it at the top of the home page.
Drop the attitude and you'll get along fine here - if you can't drop the attitude then you should crawl back under the rock from whence you came.
Chris:steam:
Actually my rock is being remodeled, I'm renting a swamp at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratmangler
Stan, will the Caiman PSU be available in the States?
I am going with the flow. If there is enough long term interest I can always make a 2nd batch. I don't see it as a big money spinner though.Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioFile808
The Caiman PSU, which is suffering from a production delay, will transform your current TC-7520 sufficiently anyhow if you also do the MCL5/6 mod without even having to replace the NE5532. So don't feel left out in the cold.
STan
Many a true word is spoken in jest !! Just because you share it with other alligators doesn't give you the right to snap at every one you come into contact with. Chillax - we won't bite you, why bite us?Quote:
Originally Posted by lingling1337
You can rely on information given freely but not necessarily on information given reluctantly.
To GazJam,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
Oh dear, it looks as if I'm going to have to do some snipping after all:eyebrows:
Cheers,
On the subject of the Caiman, forgive me if this has already been answered, but why the LM4562 instead of the THS4032?
I haven't got the time to offer every combination of opamps on the market. If people don't like my choice then tough luck. Get a TC-7520 and plug in whatever you want. I have kitted out the the Caiman with what I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by lingling1337
Stan
Quote:
Guys help out here because they want to, not because they have to.
Its a good bunch on here, but maybe its bad form after only 11 posts to come on here and try to be ..........
Lets try again, we're all friendly on here
Quote:
Congratulations matey !
You've been on here for five minutes and have started insulting people already.
The quote is just one from a number of slights your postings seem to contain.
You haven't even had the decency to say hello in the entrance hall - you'll find it at the top of the home page.
Drop the attitude and you'll get along fine here - if you can't drop the attitude then you should crawl back under the rock from whence you came.
Quote:
Actually my rock is being remodeled, I'm renting a swamp at the moment.
Lingling - may I be the latest in a line of people queuing up to point out that your rudeness is not acceptable here - I'm sure this behaviour won't be tolerated for much longer if it continues.Quote:
Many a true word is spoken in jest !! Just because you share it with other alligators doesn't give you the right to snap at every one you come into contact with. Chillax - we won't bite you, why bite us?
You can rely on information given freely but not necessarily on information given reluctantly.
At: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17 are these words & others.............
Arete; Virtuosity and goodness.
Eunoia; Goodwill to those you address.
Phronesis; Using wisdom and knowledge in a practical way.
I'll be using the above as guidelines for how I use this forum, I hope you'll agree.
Things we really like here:
Friendly people.
Differences of opinion discussed sensibly.
Pictures and lots of them!
Humorous banter.
Liberal use of the smilies. etc etc
Things we don't like here:
Defamatory comments about any manufacturers or dealers.
Defamatory comments about any other member of this forum or any other hi-fi forum.
'Willy waving' (i.e. boasting about one's system in a monetary value sense).
Swearing excessively. The occasional bit may slip thorough, but nobody wants to hear 'f this' and 'f that' all day long.
...............which you should read carefully and then decide if you want to remain here to take advantage of the wealth of experience and friendly atmosphere. This is what makes AoS different from the places that you seem to have learnt how to relate to other people.
Please have some respect.
Easy there, no offense intended. I was actually wondering what sonic or other qualities made you pick the LM4562.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
I picked it because that's the one that has been tried and tested and found to be the best bangs for bucks by the various people who used it in their TC-7520.
Ok, thanks for the clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
See how far you get with a kind word? :)
So aside from the opamp swapping, anyone have any bright ideas for bettering the analog output stage? The DAC swapping is all well and good to me, but really, the digital section isn't near as important as the analog portion.
The op-amp swapping has nothing to do with DAC swapping.Quote:
Originally Posted by lingling1337
The op-amp swapping has everything to do with modifying the analogue outputs:doh:
Chris;)
I cited the DAC bit just as a way of showing that the digital section means less to me than the analog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratmangler
I'm not sure how the syntax of my post could possibly be that confusing.
Why cite the DAC thing at all ?Quote:
Originally Posted by lingling1337
In doing so you inferred that you were confusing the two.
At least that's the way I read it.
Chris:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratmangler
Quote:
Originally Posted by LingLing1337
.
Alright Smartass.Quote:
Originally Posted by lingling1337
Does it make you feel big to carry on the way that you do ?
It is very easy to be big and brave and "clever" anonymously.
I suggest you get yourself a decent therapist and stop coming out to play with normal people until you have sorted out your own personal issues.
Chris
Here Here to that but I strongly believe that it could justifiably be stated in much much stronger language.:steam::steam::steam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratmangler
To lingling 1337: -
If you don't like the way people react to your postings, why post at all?
Move on and see if you can find somewhere else where your attitude would be more welcome!!
Sorry to sidetrack this rather abrasive gent's contributions, but hello!
I picked up the TC-7520 from Stan on thursday.
I took it home, got it running in while I was out for the rest of the day.
On friday evening I finally sat down to give it a good listen and was a little disheartened. The stock opamps really didn't tickle my fancy at all.
To put this into context, I've been using a PC-attached breakout box, while not able to properly drive my K701s it did manage to convey incredible timbre and with it the ability to pick out instruments easily. It had practically no bass, channel seperation or soundstage. Like listening to a very good oil painting.
The Stock TC-7520 re-introduced the bass wholesale to the mix. It was present, not too dominant and fairly well balanced, but the fidelity was lacking. There was some distortion initially on busy pieces of music (mostly rock) but that cleared up within 24 hours. I found it hard to get into the music as I had before, usually I would sink into my chair for an hour or so with a good album on. This did not happen.
I had ordered the 4652NA's before I had even picked up the unit, based on the findings earlier in this thread.
I popped them into the unit a few hours ago and was considerably happier with the sound.
The stage is wider, presence is improved, easier to pick out individual instruments, and the rhythm is perfect (to my ears). Listening to Cat Stevens - Oh Very Young is absolutely beautiful in terms of arrangement, detail and delivery of rhythm. Hairs standing up on the back of my neck. The detail of all the little things going on in the music are available - Someone humming along during the piano solo always makes me smile.
Edit: I thought it was just the recordings but I've noticed a real sense of veil or mono-tonality with the 4562's, hopefully this will disappear in time (Or my ears will learn to deal with it, whichever is sooner ;) )
I'll end this review by saying this is an absolutely brilliant piece of equipment with the 4652NA's installed, nothing comes close in terms of price / performance.
There is still a nagging doubt in my mind though. I miss the timbre of the first unit, and with it, the ability to really follow an instrument through the music.
Will installing a THS4032 opamp on the HPA circuit provide this? Are there alternatives?
Or should I save my monies and attempt the MCL5/6 mod?
To all those who have contributed to this thread, you've been an invaluable help and I look forward to what you come up with next. :)
Hi Zebu (may we shorten it to Zeb ?),:)
Welcome to the forum - nice first posting and a welcome cotribution to the subject of the thread. I'm sure others more knowledgeable than me will be along with their two penn'orth shortly. Meanwhile can I be the first to pass you the obligatory first request(s): -
1) please post an introduction in the Welcome area of the forum, preferably giving details of your first name (we like first names on this very friendly forum) - (there will always be exceptions to the friendly response if we feel that it isn't being reciprocated, as you have obviously already noted!);)
2) please include detais of your audio set up and your tastes in music - what do you like listening to?
3) if possible can you post pics of your set up in the gallery area? - we also like pics on this forum.:)
Again, welcome - may your stay be a long, friendly and fruitful one.
Cheers,
Welcome bovine one, good to see someone on this thread actually interested in 7520-modding rather than lingling-modding.
Everyone's ears and kit are different, but its certainly worth trying the 4032 as they're only about a tenner and easy enough to fit. For me they expanded the bass, banishing that same mono-tonality you've just added (assuming its just in the bass you have that problem) and maybe slightly added a little detail to the treble.
A few weeks ago Stan said it should soon be possible to buy a spare opamp board. I'm hoping that this will allow the soldering impaired amongst us to try the MLC5/MLC6 mod out without preventing a return to using the 4032, may be worth waiting for that before snipping anything unless you're comfortable soldering. (Can you confirm this Stan if you see this?)
But from what I've read so far, the MLC mod may well be the mod to go for for the sound you're seeking - though I've see very little discussion of the effect that has on the bass.
Hi Zebu, welcome to the madhouse! :)
I know what you mean by the 4562 veiled quality - the vocals were especially well projected and real sounding, but sounded quite "flat" spacially to these ears.
LOVED the 4562 but swapped for the 4032 becasue of this.
They bettered the 4562 in a lot of ways, but I missed the "tingle" of the 4562s.
Then I heard about the ML5/6 mod.
Stan said it was recommended and it sounded like it fixed the problems I was hearing with the 4562.
I took the plunge and done the mod.
NOW THATS BETTER! :)
All the goodness from before but WITHOUT the veiled quality.
Only proviso I's say is that theres a little less deep bass than the 4032, but whats there is good and is secondary to the increased air and life about the music.
Id try the 4032 first though before you go snipping the Caps, it might be what your looking for.
Also, the DAC takes a long time (IMHO) to fully come on song - for me a good 6/8 weeks until it finally settled down to its best.
Best Regards,
G.
Hi ZebuTheOxen
Welcome to AoS - do the rest of us a favour and say hello in the entrance hall:)
I can't comment on the MCL5/6 thing as I have the TC-7510 (different beast), but the general consensus is that it is a worthwhile thing to do with the op-amps you have fitted.
The only suggestion I would make is play music through the thing for at least a week before you make any proper assessment of sound quality.
My TC-7510 took an age to settle down properly, both from new and each time I took a soldering iron to it (twice).
Enjoy your DAC and enjoy the forum - by and large we're a pretty good crew to get on with.
Chris:)
Apart from swapping the op-amps and snipping the ceramic caps out across the fb resistors to higher bandwidth theres not a huge amount to do in the analogue stage, maybe try alternative caps for coupling.Quote:
Originally Posted by lingling1337
If you want to try something adventurous why not build an alternative output stage on vero board, solder on SIL pins so it fits in the existing socket, simply unplug the existing riser board and plug in the new one
Thanks for the replies, all very helpful! I'll introduce myself a little better tomorrow morning, it's been a long weekend.
I looked at the previous posts regarding the THS4032 and people describe it as 'dynamic' and 'forward', which I'm not sure if that's what I'm looking for. Just to give you an example, on Johnny Cash - Help Me before I would really feel the resonance of his guitar, the pluck of the strings etc. while it's still there (and more) it feels a little buried or something. I can only describe it as a veil for the lack of a better word. Maybe it could be the presence of proper bass is bringing something else to the table, this may account for the flattened sound.
The only reason I mention this is because when I first got the K701s, guitars really grabbed me. I know it can sound that good, I just want it all! :lol:
I mostly listen to rock, or 'anything with guitars in' so I would definitely say it is a sound that I actively seek out.
Though despite what I've just said, I have been flicking through tracks and the percussion / rhythm with the 4652s is absolutely fantastic. Drums crash rather than splash, plus all the other goodness that comes with it. Truly stuff to gird your loins with ;)
Stan mentioned the MCL5/6 mod to me specifically when I picked up the unit, if someone else can confirm what Gazjam is saying, it's very likely that it'll be the sound I'm looking for :)
Looking at Leo's post above, the capacitors are in the analogue part of the circuit, so it would make sense that removing a bit of filtering could open up the treble. Fingers crossed!
One of the nice things about this dac is that the output stage is simple, Apart from snipping out ML5/6 , fitting metal can LM4562HA for the line out I'm quite happy to leave the rest of the line out as is
I have a few pairs of headphones including K701's (a mate is currently borrowing them), I know these cans give a lot of amps a hard time to drive, they can sound a little lazy with light bass, sort of stick hitting a cardboard box effect ;) soon as I get them back I'll try a few different op-amps and see how it performs
Oh, welcome to AOS btw:)
Hah, that really tickled me for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spod
Anyway, this MLC mod has me intrigued now. I might pick up a pair of 4562. How do those of you who have heard both compare the 4032 to the MLC modded 4562? Gaz?
EDIT: BTW, it would probably be helpful if we all specified what headphones we're using as that can really affect how we perceive different opamps etc. I'm on Grado SR225i.
Hi Zebu-(please explain your cattle based name). Thought I would add my two pennies worth. The 4562 has some lovely qualities especially in the mid-range. Acoustic guitar for example is a delight. Its about as close to being there as is possible. The reason I changed to the 4032 was because of a problem with excessive one note bass. I use floor standing speakers in a small room and consider the 4562 amplified the problem. The 4032 solves this for me but some may describe the sound as clinical or etched.
The ML5/6 mod plus 4562 may be an alternative but up to now I havent had the courage to try it.
I am surprised about the bass complaint made with the LM4562. It sounds far deeper and with more musical content to me and a few who tried it against the DAC1 (NE5532) and the DacMagic (NE5534).
The K701 has a dead low end on most headphone amps. So when you use it with the TC-7520 the enhanced bass can appear to 'sink' the midrange.
For K701 users and anyone who enjoys a wider bass range via headphones you can try the THS4032, or alternatively swap over the 47nF caps ( those big yellow ones on the top PCB either side of the headphone amp opamp, for a 100nF. I have instead soldered a 33nF cap in parallel with the 47nF from underneath the PCB so that I didn't need to desolder the 47nF. But that's for use with the K701. The added bass might sound a bit too much on the HD650 and other headphones that already have a fair amount of bass.
I added a modification page on my website at www.beresford.me that shows a number of the pictures taken by various AoS modders. I put some text with them as well. I hope to add and improve on that page over time. I hope it is helpful for a lot of people who don't know where to look for the various info.
Any useful suggestions on how to improve on that?
Stan
Have to say Stan that the website mod page for the 7520 is absolutely tops!
Are you planning a TC7510 one when you find a bit of spare time (what's that!).
Regards
Chris
I am looking for TC-7510 pics to post if anyone got any that I can have. Just email them to me at AoSPics@homehifi.co.uk. I'll worry about editing them etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrism
I'll add some extra mods etc for the TC-7510. I just need to find where my TC-7510 with WM8716 is hiding. That mod needs two extra bits of wire links added, which is why I haven't made it available in general. I just can't remember where the links go either:doh:.
STan
Agreed that its deeper but, to me, it sounded 'lazy'-like the bass notes were hanging around a bit longer than they should. Very probably this is caused by my system/room and wont be a problem for most people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
:doh:. It's the decay of the signal that you are hearing. People pay a fortune just to get their equipment to produce that level of accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Stan
This is an interesting point you raise Stan and one I have thought about a bit.
Exactly how long should the decay last? I know you are going to say however much is there but sometimes it leads to the following notes being obscured-drowning in bass if you like. After a while it can become tiring so personally I prefer a somewhat sharper sound.
This becomes worse when you are listening to floorstanders close up in a small room.
Dont ask me to change my speakers because I love them!
Hey Lingling, :)Quote:
Originally Posted by lingling1337
See my post #931 for this.
Gaz.
Jerry,Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
I experienced this too, but I found it goes away with the MCL5/6 mod.
More clarity across the board, just a WEE bit less deep bass.
Looking good, it just needs the text 100nf changing to 100pf for MLC5 & MLC6Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
Also I think some noted problems if using THS4032 in both line out and HA positions where as it was ok if used in one side only
Thanks Gaz,Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
Well it looks like I am going to have to try this mod. I think I have a rusty old pair of pliers where I keep the car jack and other tools. So after I have ripped out these bits do I need to solder a bit of wire in their place? Thats what I do when the fuse blows.
Only joking I'll be careful :lol:
Covenant,Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
I think my stereo setup is similar to yours. I have floor standing speakers with spiked feet. They are the Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs with dual 8" inch woofers and a bass port in the back. They produce a strong bass down to 30 Hz. My stereo room is small, about 11 feet by 12.
My observation with the stock opamps in the 7520 were very nice, and no complaints of the bass. I went straight to the LM4562NA with the ML5/ML6 mods and found that the quality improved immensely, it was nearly perfect.
My observations match Gazjamz in that with the LM4562 in the line-out driving my system, the low bass is just very slightly dialed back. the LM4562s go deep, they just don't go strong as before. My feet want to tap energetically to the music but feel there's something missing down low. From 50 Hz up, though, the LM4562 with ML5/ML6 is pretty much perfect, and if not for the bass, my 7520 modding would have been done.
Also, I just wanted to add that I was one of the 1st buyers of the 7520, so it came with that other PSU. When Stan sent me the upgraded PSU, the sound improved considerably, especially with the bass. These PSU observations were all with the original opamp.
I wonder then, if the Caiman PSU will improve things with the LM4562 and ML5/6 mods. We'll just have to wait and see:)
CD
I used a breadknife....Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
:doh: Jeez, and I was trying to keep that a secret till the time is nigh. You guys can predict the future:scratch:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Codifus
Stan