Cassette's Not Dead, Apparently!

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21-06-2009, 10:20
DSJR

I must confess that I'm still deeply suspicious of opinions being spouted as facts when the master recording often sounds multi-mono and "dry" and nothing like the syrupy "niceness" that is your average top end vinyl player (not necessarily a Technics SP10 or NAS Spacedeck), where all the "edge" has been "refined" out.

I still feel, rightly or wrongly, that all this "musical" expression, rhythm and "texture" is over-egged in a compressed analogue format like LP, as I never heard this exaggeration listening to music live (or when Revox recorded live concerts were recorded with a crossed pair of Calrecs played back on a half decent system).

I like NAS turntables because, rightly or wrongly, they seem to give the detail and drive without dissecting the playback. They out-tune a "typical" Linn and out-rhythm it too - the latest mods take the fruitbox out of the pricing equation as a full SL1200 or Spacedeck "system is less than the Keel mod). I've not yet heard a fully sorted SL1200 series, but the SP10 used to "do it" too (and that was in the old plinths as well). I've just remembered, our London shop sold the Rock II as well and although our Linn/Naim sales director all but ignored it, we sold a good few of these at the time and got on well with Max. This latter, as Neil may confirm, had a good way with LP's too.

To close on the analogue/digital thing, I remember a senior engineer at Castle Sound Studios (Linn used them loads) coming into our London shop (Linn had a flat in the block above for London visits) and saying just how much better their digital system was at capturing the music (and they did some stunning 30IPS 1/2" analogue masters in their day). I also have a copy of Linns Analogue/Digital LP, one side cut with the usual analogue recording system and the other side cut from a Sony PCM-F1 Betamax(?) digital system. Guess which side most Linn dealers preferred? the DIGITAL one, according to Linn, causing some consternation up in Glasgow I understand.. Calum Malcolm (I think it was, but it could have been Bill - long time ago) brought Linn's pro Numerik into the shop (a modular large 19" rack mounted thing nothing like the domestic model) and it forever banished any feelings that digital was inferior in any way. What gets me is how, for some reason, we still get differences in CD production when the glass master should be the same.

May I deeply and very respectfully respectfully suggest that ADM 9.1's are bought by music lovers, NOT audio enthusiasts who can move their rooms around to accommodate the stereo. It took me nearly five years living here before herself allowed the stereo in the sitting room and I didn't want to shut myself away in another room, away from my family, listening to music as I did when I first got a computer, stuck in an upstairs "office" tapping away ;) I did enough of that when I lived at home (Isobariks as headphones - beat that :ner:)
21-06-2009, 11:04
niklasthedolphin

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSJR

I must confess that I'm still deeply suspicious of opinions being spouted as facts when the master recording often sounds multi-mono and "dry" and nothing like the syrupy "niceness" that is your average top end vinyl player (not necessarily a Technics SP10 or NAS Spacedeck), where all the "edge" has been "refined" out.

What a confusion this adds to the Cassette debate IMO.

Technics TT's will never get status as top-end in any modification.
I'm sorry. This is my opinion.
Technics made some great entry level and DJ TT's.
And that's it.

But this really belongs in another debate.
And I think it's there to find.

Anyway...................
I wish freedom to speak (and write) were a little wider here.
Tim didn't earn to be banned or censored - again IMO.
Otherwise he will never get to experience the "magic" he mentioned in his last post.

Let's be more "containing" as I used to say in my profession as resocializing heavy criminals.

I mean.........................Tim's statements and opinions are not more frightening and segragating than when there was a debate about microphonics from gear hung on the wall or positioned on the floor - or was it cables touching a wall or not.
OMG!!!

"dolph"
21-06-2009, 11:32
Marco

Dave,

I agree with most of what you've written. There will always be examples where *some* digital recordings are superior to *some* analogue recordings, and vice versa. What pro-analogue people like others and myself contend, and from experience, is that the *best* analogue recordings, when they happen, are unquestionably superior to the *best* digital recordings - that's the difference, but we could go round and round disputing this all day. Therefore, I think it's best just to agree to disagree and move on :)

However this (in bold):

Quote:

May I deeply and very respectfully respectfully suggest that ADM 9.1's are bought by music lovers, NOT audio enthusiasts who can move their rooms around to accommodate the stereo. It took me nearly five years living here before herself allowed the stereo in the sitting room and I didn't want to shut myself away in another room, away from my family, listening to music as I did when I first got a computer.

...is, with respect, nonsense.

The likes of ADM9s (I'm not solely singling them out - they are just an example of the 'breed') are bought mainly by two different types of people:

1) Those who simply want an up-to-date, neat, cost-effective, decent sounding, all-in-one digital music solution with the minimum amount of fuss.

2) Those that come into the above category and are constrained by space and/or considerations of WAF, and perhaps can't afford anything more expensive that may be better.

That's it. Owning the likes of ADM9s has nothing whatsoever to do with one's status or otherwise as a music lover.

I would agree that there's a fine line between loving music and becoming a 'hi-fi obsessive', and that some manage this challenge better than others. I would contend though that those who are willing to go the extra mile (and own the necessary equipment) to obtain the highest fidelity and 'realism' from recorded music, and who in turn own large music collections as a result of that (that last bit is crucial), are indeed the most genuine music lovers.

I come into this category, and I'm certain that most of our members do too, which is partly why AOS is different from some other audio forums.

As for shutting oneself in a another room away from the family, this is indeed a consideration, but much depends on the layout of one's home and the lifestyle/desires of the people within it.

In my situation, I have a dedicated music room for two main reasons:

1) So that when I want to listen to music I can do so without disturbing my wife watching television, and vice versa.

2) So that I have a space where I can store all my music together and optimise the set-up (and thus performance) of my chosen equipment, which doesn't interfere with the layout of our lounge.

That last bit is quite crucial, because our small Victorian lodge house is full of the antiques we collect and is decorated very much in an 'Olde-Worlde' style, therefore the last thing we'd want is to have an 'ugly' hi-fi system in there spoiling the 'ambience' of the room. Multi-level Mana and huge Tannoy Lockwoods do not mingle harmoniously with Clarice Cliff, Crown Staffordshire porcelain and original oak Welsh dressers! ;)

In fact, let me be even more specific - there would physically be no room for ALL OF THAT and the TV! :)

So........ I have my own little 'den' which accommodates all my audio paraphernalia and music, and where my wife and I often enjoy a nice bottle of wine whilst listening to our favourite tunes. It is also a place where the 'crew' can go, listen to music, and talk about all manner of depravity (:eyebrows:), while their partners indulge in the 'girly' stuff downstairs.

All in all, I am most satisfied with this arrangement. I thus would never consider not having a separate 'den' like this in any house which I lived in. I'm a music lover and also a perfectionist who demands superb sound. I also like the best things in all aspects of life! :cool:

:gig:

Marco.

P.S There is no "syrupy niceness" with a heavily-modifed SL-1210 - just beautiful music heard with minimal possible coloration.
21-06-2009, 11:33
anthonyTD

Quote:

Originally Posted by niklasthedolphin

What a confusion this adds to the Cassette debate IMO.

Technics TT's will never get status as top-end in any modification.
I'm sorry. This is my opinion.
Technics made some great entry level and DJ TT's.
And that's it.

But this really belongs in another debate.
And I think it's there to find.

Quote:

Anyway...................
I wish freedom to speak (and write) were a little wider here.
Tim didn't earn to be banned or censored - again IMO.
Otherwise he will never get to experience the "magic" he mentioned in his last post.

Let's be more "containing" as I used to say in my profession as resocializing heavy criminals.

I mean.........................Tim's statements and opinions are not more frightening and segragating than when there was a debate about microphonics from gear hung on the wall or positioned on the floor.
OMG!!!

"dolph"

yep,
totally agree with you on this dolph.
A...
21-06-2009, 11:34
Marco

Quote:

Technics TT's will never get status as top-end in any modification.
I'm sorry. This is my opinion.
Technics made some great entry level and DJ TT's.
And that's it.

LOL! Let's not go there, Dolph ;)

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine!

Marco.
21-06-2009, 11:41
Marco

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyTD

yep,
totally agree with you on this dolph.
A...

Did you mean just the last bit about Tim, or the bit too about Technics T/Ts? ;)

Marco.
21-06-2009, 11:57
Marco

I think Anthony can speak for himself, Dolph.

Besides, I already know the answer (he rates it highly) as he's heard my system and the 1210, so my earlier remark was somewhat tongue-in-cheek ;)

Marco.

{Edit: ah, I see you've deleted your post now} :eyebrows:
21-06-2009, 13:14
tfarney

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L

Hi Tim

I think I can speak for those that hold the same view as me, those you are being critical of. No we don't believe in magic...this is not a case of belief or faith, but an acceptance of what we have all heard many times. We sit down to listen to our audio systems and others, and have repeatedly heard the superiority of analogue playback and recording equipment. Now that is not to say that all analogue equipment is equal, but there is a wide spread trend for mid priced well set up Turntables to better much more expensive CD players and for properly used and set up analogue recorders (reel to reel and cassette) to both record and playback a more natural copy of the music than a digital recorder. It should also be noted that even in digital recording there is the issue (which according to objectivists should not happen) that a CDR copy of a CD sounds better than the original...I have heard that too...bits are bits, is not, it would seem the case. Maybe jitter is the answer, but no one to my knowledge has explained this one yet.

You have heard what you have heard and despite analogues short comings (and none of us are saying analogue is not a compromise or perfect) but it consistently replays music in a way that is closer to the original. It captures the following better (I will re-quote Art Dudley again) "I confess to hearing more, not less, in the way of musical differences between analog and digital playback as time goes by: differences in their abilities to convey momentum, pacing, flow, melody, harmony, and overall intellectual and emotional involvement. And, again, the older I get, the less I find I can tolerate average-quality digital sound, even for background music-even as the opposite seems to be the case among so many of my friends, and even as my hearing continues its natural and inexorable decline"

The above is what we are hearing and you are not (I would love to know why you haven't). I can't explain or understand how it is that with your many years of experience you have not once had that sort of realization....that moment that exposes digital for the 2d format it is. Please understand I am not saying that digital can never better analogue just that I and many others have still to hear that....and we are not deluded.

Frankly I find your tone in the above comment to be sailing close to being insulting(in your opinion not with standing) There is no need to take that sort of tone in this discussion IMHO.

Are you willing to seek out the sort of set ups we have mentioned and have a listen again ? If you don't hear it fair enough but stepping out from the yoke of objectivity and becoming more subjective may help open your mind and ears. Measurements does not hold all the answers to what happens during the recording and reproduction of music or the human aspects in performing it or hearing it.

In my experience it is not usually a question of subtlety but of massive and obvious superiority that analogue is better (in the areas that matter most in music replay and recording). To many times I have seen others hear this too. Case in point Steve (Aquapiranha)...with in seconds exclaimed that once again vinyl had beaten CD when hearing my SME Model 20 mk1, Graham Phantom, Ortofon MC7500 against my Moon Andromeda CD player..." I must get myself a turntable" he said. The vinyl playback set up is bar the arm all S/H and at least 20 years old the Andromeda is one of the best CD (modern) players around (it should be noted that some members seem to have achieved this, having spent less money in regard to their TT front-end, than I have; even though some of my kit is S/H) If you want to be ultra critical there are somethings digital does better than analogue(in this case vinyl) but the essence,naturalness, dimension and emotion of the music is preserved and reproduced better to the best of digital and this finding also applies to SACD and DVD-A too ( I have also got both of these at home)

Regards D S D L

Dalek, please don't be offended by the "magic" remark. It was a dark joke, a direct response to this comment from Marco:

Quote:

i am sure there are many serious recording engineers out there that have worked through the decades of studio recording who would agree that tape despite its obvious draw backs ie, noise, wow flutter etc still has a certain magic and life to it than any digital source could ever capture.

But do I think analog lovers are deluded? I came home late last night, to find that a friend had sent me a file: Joni Mitchell singing "Summertime" on Herbie Hancock's album, "Gershwin's World." A file. Sent by email. I have no idea what the compression rate was, but it was obviously compressed. I played it back from my bog-standard Apple laptop through an untweaked Wolfson DAC and a pair of active speakers, bi-amped by big class A/B solid state amps. In other words, a system that is exactly the opposite of what is revered here, a system one would expect, according to the prevailing AOS rhetoric, to be not much better than an ipod and a pair of earbuds.

It was gorgeous, and I'm not just talking about the performance. The instruments and voice that floated, so precisely placed, in the air of my room were stunningly lifelike and present. To believe what is said here, in the most absolute, uncompromising, un-subjective of terms, I am required to not believe my ears. I am required to believe that what I heard late last night was flat, gray, lifeless, hard, ugly, thin, ragged and just plain wrong. I am required to believe that the thin veneer of age and cigarettes on Joni's vocal chords was not a revelation of sonic detail, the communication of deep experience and emotion, but compression distortion and digital artifacts. I am required to imagine the decay of the reverb on the clarinet disintegrating into grainy particles of distortion before it fades into inaudibility. I am required to believe that the compromises of digital are glaring and unbearable and that inner groove distortion, tape hiss, surface noise, clipping valves, the RIAA curve and honking horns are the natural sound of music and that what I heard last night was crap. And i know this is not a popular point in these parts, but I am required to believe it in spite of the fact that the preponderance of measurement and data supports what I hear rather than what I am required to believe. To make matters worse, I am required to believe it by people who declare subjectivism as they dismiss my experience in the most absolute terms.

And you're insulted?

Quote:

Are you willing to seek out the sort of set ups we have mentioned and have a listen again ?

Why? We have high-end shops; I could go listen to a top-quality vinyl rig this afternoon, but if I didn't experience vinyl sartori, the assumption would be that there was something wrong with the rig; the assumption would be that there was something wrong with my hearing, or taste. I've heard great analog rigs. I've owned great analog rigs. I know they can sound great. I disagree that they can ever sound more "natural" than digital well-done. Listening to another vinyl rig will not change my opinion or ease anyone's discomfort with my disagreement.

With all of that said, you hear what you hear. Enjoy it. I'll sink back into lurking mode now, and leave you to enjoy it. Maybe I'll have the wisdom to stay there this time.

ON EDIT: The above was written before I read Marco's recent posts, though I think it addresses them rather well. No need to ban me, Marco. I'll take care of that myself.

Tim
21-06-2009, 13:23
Marco

Tim,

First of all, this:

Quote:

i am sure there are many serious recording engineers out there that have worked through the decades of studio recording who would agree that tape despite its obvious draw backs ie, noise, wow flutter etc still has a certain magic and life to it than any digital source could ever capture.

...was a quote belonging to ANTHONY TD, not me! Are you blind as well as blinkered? ;)

Secondly, I have no intention of banning you. As I've said umpteen times in the past, arguing/disagreeing with me, or any other member of admin, is NOT a ban-able offence - far from it.

However, unless you change your attitude and begin to respect valid opinions which are contrary to your own, then you are no longer welcome here. Using AOS as a vehicle to have a pop at people whose approach with hi-fi is different to yours is not acceptable. Therefore, raise your game or go: the ball is in your court.

I'm afraid that snide and unhelpful remarks of yours such as:

Quote:

Any discussion that supposes that magnetic tape is the more stable archival vehicle than CD is not serious...

Quote:

I'm not arguing the superiority of the digital format, Marco, but its stability relative to magnetic tape. Not all things are subjective. Only in the world of the grossly uninformed is that one of them.

[Your view on the matter is not an irrefutable fact (such as, for example, 1+1 = 2), therefore how can alternative views be "grossly uniformed"? If evidence is given to support an alternative view, such as Dolph and Alex provided, then their view is equally as valid]. FACT.

and particularly this:

Quote:

I'm saying I agree that some recording engineers, like most AOS members, believe in magic.

...are neither humorous, nor acceptable within the boundaries of our ethos. Oh, and lastly, I have never once "dismissed" your experience; merely challenged it robustly after you have summarily and disrespectfully dismissed mine. This is the difference/fact you seem unable to comprehend.

Marco.
21-06-2009, 13:27
Spectral Morn

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney

Dalek, please don't be offended by the "magic" remark. It was a dark joke, a direct response to this comment from Marco:

But do I think analog lovers are deluded? I came home late last night, to find that a friend had sent me a file: Joni Mitchell singing "Summertime" on Herbie Hancock's album, "Gershwin's World." A file. Sent by email. I have no idea what the compression rate was, but it was obviously compressed. I played it back from my bog-standard Apple laptop through an untweaked Wolfson DAC and a pair of active speakers, bi-amped by big class A/B solid state amps. In other words, a system that is exactly the opposite of what is revered here, a system one would expect, according to the prevailing AOS rhetoric, to be not much better than an ipod and a pair of earbuds.

It was gorgeous, and I'm not just talking about the performance. The instruments and voice that floated, so precisely placed, in the air of my room were stunningly lifelike and present. To believe what is said here, in the most absolute, uncompromising, un-subjective of terms, I am required to not believe my ears. I am required to believe that what I heard late last night was flat, gray, lifeless, hard, ugly, thin, ragged and just plain wrong. I am required to believe that the thin veneer of age and cigarettes on Joni's vocal chords was not a revelation of sonic detail, the communication of deep experience and emotion, but compression distortion and digital artifacts. I am required to imagine the decay of the reverb on the clarinet disintegrating into grainy particles of distortion before it fades into inaudibility. I am required to believe that the compromises of digital are glaring and unbearable and that inner groove distortion, tape hiss, surface noise, clipping valves, the RIAA curve and honking horns are the natural sound of music and that what I heard last night was crap. And i know this is not a popular point in these parts, but I am required to believe it in spite of the fact that the preponderance of measurement and data supports what I hear rather than what I am required to believe. To make matters worse, I am required to believe it by people who declare subjectivism as they dismiss my experience in the most absolute terms.

And you're insulted?

Why? We have high-end shops; I could go listen to a top-quality vinyl rig this afternoon, but if I didn't experience vinyl sartori, the assumption would be that there was something wrong with the rig; the assumption would be that there was something wrong with my hearing, or taste. I've heard great analog rigs. I've owned great analog rigs. I know they can sound great. I disagree that they can ever sound more "natural" than digital well-done. Listening to another vinyl rig will not change my opinion or ease anyone's discomfort with my disagreement.

With all of that said, you hear what you hear. Enjoy it. I'll sink back into lurking mode now, and leave you to enjoy it. Maybe I'll have the wisdom to stay there this time.

ON EDIT: The above was written before I read Marco's recent posts, though I think it addresses them rather well. No need to ban me, Marco. I'll take care of that myself.

Tim

I think your WHY? question says it all in away. I am forced to conclude that you feel your journeys over and there is no more to hear or learn. Tim I have no problem with you having your view and I would defend your right to have that view, but how you have at times expressed that view is rather rude IMHO and at times lacking in any back up info...unlike the post you have just written. You have explained the details of what you listened to last night. Without hearing your experience I can't comment except to indicate that perhaps I might not have felt the same way...but I wasn't there. I can be moved by music of the TV or a portable radio, which hasn't the same quality of sound I normally look for. But the issue there is what is it in the music which transends the lack of quality but still effects you? That is something worth discussing I feel.

I certainly don't revere any system. My set up is away of getting me closer to the music I love and a set of compromises which works in the room it is positioned in.

I think this is a case of wanting different things from audio...or more likely simply hearing things differently.

However I am not insulting your objectavist stance but I do feel without a degree of balance in the form of subjective listening its a 2 d approach. Lets design it by measurement, not listen to it and put it to market. Measurements don't and never have told the whole story.

Quote:

I am required to believe that what I heard late last night was flat, gray, lifeless, hard, ugly, thin, ragged and just plain wrong. I am required to believe that the thin veneer of age and cigarettes on Joni's vocal chords was not a revelation of sonic detail, the communication of deep experience and emotion, but compression distortion and digital artifacts. I am required to imagine the decay of the reverb on the clarinet disintegrating into grainy particles of distortion before it fades into inaudibility. I am required to believe that the compromises of digital are glaring and unbearable and that inner groove distortion, tape hiss, surface noise, clipping valves, the RIAA curve and honking horns are the natural sound of music

Much of what you describe above is as a result (and I am not using this as some sort of general defence) but of systems and set ups badly matched and badly set up. No one has said that good digital is crap....just not as good in the important ways of reproducing music IOHO's. My system is very different to Marco's and I don't like horn speakers SO FAR (I have still to hear one I like...doesn't mean they don't exist).

Tim I think you have a journeys over mind set, unlike myself who will admit that the journey is never over and there is always more to learn and experience and as such all you are required to do is have an open mind and express your view without being rude.

Regards Neil

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