Macca's Lash Up 2: Lash Harder

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Originally Posted by Macca

Someone at that do I went to gave me a bastard of a cold so didn't do anymore listening until Sunday.

Tried 'em with a bit of Korn. Now that does also sound epic on the Focals, but with these - well I think I found their party trick. I mean it was just stupid.

I know what you're thinking and I was thinking that too. Are these just a rocker's speaker? What about the subtlety? The delicacy?

So thought I'd put on some Tull - 'Songs From The Wood' as that has a lot of acoustic instruments on. It was with some trepidation I cued it up.

Well I needn't have worried, it sounded magical. Like there was nothing, no device producing the sound at all, just the sound.

Later a pal came round, likes his music, plays guitar in a band. He like ZZ Top so I put on 'Tejas' for him. As first song kicked in I raised the level just a little bit to the 'bite point'.

His eyes widened up exactly like that German bloke at the end of 'Kelly's Heroes' when they tell him about the gold.

Upshot of that is he's borrowed some speakers and an amp off me and went off to set up a system.

I don't know if it is me burning in or the speakers but they do now sound pretty much exactly how I expected/hoped they'd sound.

Sweet, no edge, and totally effortless low frequencies and dynamic swings.

I'm still undecided if they are just a little soft in the upper mids, like with snares and ride cymbals and that. That would contribute to the smooth, relaxed nature I suppose.

I'll have to do some more listening regarding that as if it's there, it's subtle.

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Sounds like you have hit the sweet spot[emoji846]

I go with the philosophy of using just enough 'dedicated' treatment to fix any audible problems. As the room is large - 29 x 11 x 9.5 feet bass boom isn't an issue as the main mode is below what the speakers can output, but high frequency bounce still needs dealing with.

I'll start with the door.

This corner is next to the listening seats so I stuck some of this acoustic foam up as it's quite a lively corner and bounces high frequencies about. Since I need access I can't put anything else here. The tiles are from Studio Spares and are cheap, but do the job.

https://i.ibb.co/P4bxz6Z/door.jpg

Corner on the other side, again this was a bit lively hence the roll of insulation.
The bubble wrap is just there as it's a convenient spot to put it, but it's probably quite absorbent too so it can't hurt:


https://i.ibb.co/vLCsC9x/corner-1.jpg


A.V system

https://i.ibb.co/ZYTbFQB/av.jpg

This operates across the width of the room with some Beovox MC120.2 speakers
From the top:

Onkyo universal disc player - you got DVD, BD, CD, HDCD, DVD-A and SACD playback with this unit. They don't make them anymore
Pioneer DVD 565-A which is now just a back up
Parasound C/DP 1000 CD player
Technics SH8058 EQ
XTZ A1000D3 integrated amplifer, this has a DAC in it, sound goes in from TV via optical Coax.

https://i.ibb.co/hyvwntb/speek.jpg

One of the speakers for the main system - Speaker choice I find is very personal, I dislike a lot of speakers and others dislike my choices too. I did audition some serious cutting edge speakers like the Kii3 but in the end decided to go 'old school' with a big banger.

The acoustic panels you see here - I can't really tell if they do anything but I had them left over. IN theory they should cancel the HF reflections off the brick wall, with the speaker being so close.

Main corner where it all happens - main system electronics - TEAC, Sony, Krell plus the LP and CD storage.

https://i.ibb.co/GJsRLK9/corner-2.jpg


For acoustic purposes it helps to have a big stuffed bookcase like this in the corner as it scatters and damps high frequency reflections. My one remaining turntable is mothballed so the LPs are not used, bought most of them again on CD.

Opposite corner, again with a stuffed full bookcase albeit smaller. Can't hurt.

https://i.ibb.co/qk0s8hR/corner-3.jpg

And back round again to by the door where I've got some spare kit stored (there's lots more in my upstairs 'showroom' lol

https://i.ibb.co/R3VBj86/spare-kit.jpg

From top to bottom:

Topping E30 DAC (the original)
Soncoz SGD-1 DAC
Linn LK100 power amp
Marantz CD54 CD player (1984)
Nelson Pass DCB-1 Pre amp
Philips 'Black Tulip' pre-amp
NAD C320BEE integrated amp
Denon PMA250 SE UK integrated amp
Sony SCD XB790QS CD/SACD player
Samsung BD player
Panasonic DVD Player
Philips 'Black Tulip' power amp.

Over almost 40 years and owning and auditioning a lot of equipment I've pretty much sorted out what works for me, so here is my 'philosophy':

By far the most important thing is the loudspeakers and the room acoustics. With a digital source - any digital source even a smartphone - I'd say this is 95% of the sound quality right there.

In particular getting enough damping in the room to stop too much high frequency bouncing about. I find that very fatiguing. Of course you don't want to kill the place dead.

Most of that can be achieved with normal furnishings and then after that treat any still audible problems that you notice. Not rocket science and you don't need to spend a fortune - you aren't making a professional mastering suite (unless you are).

So spend almost all the money on speakers - and carpet, curtains, furniture, bookshelves and so on.

For source I no longer bother with vinyl as it's expensive and inconsistent - although when it's good enough I don't really have any issues with it, I just don't see the point when we have something cheaper and better instead.

Cables - yes mine are quite expensive even though I'm not a believer. I've done my share of swapping the damn things and straining for hear the differences. No longer spend time on that game.

Buy something quality that's not going to fall apart in your hands after a few plugs and unplugs, fit and forget, never think about them again. Just make sure speaker cable is thick enough to avoid any losses due to raised impedance. - that's my philosophy there.

Power - I don't use any power conditioners, regenerators, and all the power cables are just whatever was lying about when I hooked up. I really don't think there is any problem to be solved with such devices, unless you have pops and clicks from the fridge - or whatever -starting up. At least in the UK anyway there's nothing wrong with the mains power and any noise or distortion is removed in the transfer from AC to DC in the equipment's power supply.

Spend the money on better speakers and room instead! No matter what speakers you have there's always something better to save up for. I suppose if you really have have maxed out on the things that matter then it's somewhere else to go, but I'd still advise against it.

The danger of constantly swapping and comparing and upgrading is you forget to just listen to the music - which was the whole original point of the exercise. You can actually ruin that pleasure for yourself by never being able to get out of 'analysis mode.' Ask me how I know!

Anyway, there is my two cents for the day.

Good post.

Absolutely agree - and I completely share your philosophy Martin - contrary to what we were always "told" by the hi-fi press (admittedly when vinyl was still the main serious format) "source first" doesn't bear any fruit with today's digital front ends. I can barely hear differences between digital sources, and mostly struggle with amps as long as they have enough welly to drive what you have, but speakers can be "night and day" better or worse with everything else being equal. I think once you know what you like, it's fairly simple to find a system that gives you what you want so you can just concentrate on the music. And i have very little belief in cables making much difference if at all, particularly mains cables, and very little time for any other "snake oil" products.

Yeah, it's a philosophy that makes perfect sense to me too, though if you were to apply for a job at a hifi shop I'd keep much of it to myself ;) Mind you, you've enough gear there to open your own shop.

I look forward to hearing your new speakers, just waiting for your living room to warm up :) I suppose I could bring a puffa jacket but it would probably mess with the acoustics.

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Originally Posted by Alex_UK

Absolutely agree - and I completely share your philosophy Martin - contrary to what we were always "told" by the hi-fi press (admittedly when vinyl was still the main serious format) "source first" doesn't bear any fruit with today's digital front ends. I can barely hear differences between digital sources, and mostly struggle with amps as long as they have enough welly to drive what you have, but speakers can be "night and day" better or worse with everything else being equal. I think once you know what you like, it's fairly simple to find a system that gives you what you want so you can just concentrate on the music. And i have very little belief in cables making much difference if at all, particularly mains cables, and very little time for any other "snake oil" products.

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I've noticed at the NEBO meets that we start with a system and at some point stuff starts getting swapped in and out. Sometimes, like you say, the amp makes a difference if it doesn't have the welly (the rooms for these meets tend to be quite large too) and the speakers always make a difference - from 'well that's different' to 'not even in the same ballpark'.

But all the other stuff - well if you weren't watching it get swapped you wouldn't even know. Even going from digital to vinyl isn't much difference although admittedly the turntables that get brought along are always of high quality.

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

Yeah, it's a philosophy that makes perfect sense to me too, though if you were to apply for a job at a hifi shop I'd keep much of it to myself ;) Mind you, you've enough gear there to open your own shop.

I look forward to hearing your new speakers, just waiting for your living room to warm up :) I suppose I could bring a puffa jacket but it would probably mess with the acoustics.

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You might need more than the puffa jacket...right now I'm wearing military-issue thermals, sweatshirt, fleece, and one of those padded lumberjack shirts over the top of all that.

Great Post Martin!
I've waited some time to reply to this thread as I wanted to wait until your new speakers had run-in and that you had had time to get to know them. Clearly they have, and you are more than pleased with the results (a give away was the fact you were posting the titles of the CDs being played). This is good news; especially as they may be your final speakers.

You are fortunate in having such a large listening/living room. Mine is of roughly similar size but is only 25' long, 8' high and 11' wide (where the speakers are located) widening out to 15' at my listening position. Unfortunately there are large windows and a patio sliding door at the respective ends of the room. Given the arrangement of doors into the hallway and into the kitchen, there is only one place I can place the speakers. The end nearest the speakers is acoustical 'live', whereas at the listening end it is acoustically 'dead'; which as far as I can tell is the best way it should be. I haven’t bothered with any obvious acoustic treatment, but there bookshelves, LP and CD storage cases and soft furnishings to break up and absorb the indirect sound.

Even so, I envy the size of your room. Well done!

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Originally Posted by Barry

Great Post Martin!
I've waited some time to reply to this thread as I wanted to wait until your new speakers had run-in and that you had had time to get to know them. Clearly they have, and you are more than pleased with the results (a give away was the fact you were posting the titles of the CDs being played). This is good news; especially as they may be your final speakers.

You are fortunate in having such a large listening/living room. Mine is of roughly similar size but is only 25' long, 8' high and 11' wide (where the speakers are located) widening out to 15' at my listening position. Unfortunately there are large windows and a patio sliding door at the respective ends of the room. Given the arrangement of doors into the hallway and into the kitchen, there is only one place I can place the speakers. The end nearest the speakers is acoustical 'live', whereas at the listening end it is acoustically 'dead'; which as far as I can tell is the best way it should be. I haven’t bothered with any obvious acoustic treatment, but there bookshelves, LP and CD storage cases and soft furnishings to break up and absorb the indirect sound.

Even so, I envy the size of your room. Well done!

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I've really not had that much listening time with the speakers, partly due to work and then this cold weather hasn't helped. At some point I'll write a full separate review of them but I like to do that after a few hundred hours when I think if there's any problems I will certainly have noticed them.

Regarding acoustics I've read that 'Live end - dead end' is now outmoded but I'm not really sure why. Personally I think if it works, then it works. I have a few extra things I did not mention like thick floor to ceiling curtains and thick rug on top of the carpet right in front of the speakers to damp down floor bounce - although I also read a theory that if you eliminate floor bounce entirely it sounds unnatural. So who knows?

With the new speakers I have used a bit of PEQ to lift the top end, makes me wonder if I have not damped the room down to suit the Focals and it is too much for the slightly 'darker' sounding new speakers. But could just be they don't have as wide a dispersion as the Focal, and I mostly listen off axis.

It's a minefield really so I just tweak it by ear. Happily no bass issues as they are tough to sort passively.

Yes, floor to ceiling curtains are a help, as is carpet, or at the very least a thick rug in front of the speakers.

From what you say I may have eliminated 'floor bounce', but I don't think my system sound unnatural: I have had professional musicians listen to my system without complaint.

Since my speakers do not produce much below 40Hz, thought what they do produce is very clean, I shouldn't really worry about the size of my room.

Looking forward to reading a full review of your speakers. :)