Caiman passive output mod revealed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLED

Probably a question for Stan or Leo;

If you do not use the USB input on the Caiman, would there be anything to gain (thinking of noise back through the earth side) of removing the USB board? I am guessing not, but no one seems to have asked.

Cheers Andy

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Hmnn, good question...?

Oh...I noticed Hificollective have the 1UF ClarityCaps back in stock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLED

Probably a question for Stan or Leo;

If you do not use the USB input on the Caiman, would there be anything to gain (thinking of noise back through the earth side) of removing the USB board? I am guessing not, but no one seems to have asked.

Cheers Andy

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From the looks of it the USB board is powered by the computer, so I doubt it will cause any interference if it's not connected to a computer. That's what I'd put my money on anyway. Saying that I've removed my USB board as I'm planning on swapping it for a toslink socket. The Caiman+ wasn't available when I bought my Caiman. :doh:

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Originally Posted by MartinT

The AuriCaps won the day. I've now soldered in the 2.2uF 200V AuriCaps in place of the 5-way socket. I did it this way as I wanted to retain the protection of the muting relay. I took care to have the signal input flow into the black leads and output from the red leads, as advised in the Audience application notes.

The PCB holes had to be opened up and I did this with a needle file as I didn't have the correct diameter drill. No worries about through-hole plating as this (front) PCB is single-sided. the caps are held lightly in place with small foam sticky pads to prevent them from vibrating.

The AuriCaps sound fantastic: highly transparent, deep and tight bass, wide soundstage. I am well pleased with my Caiman and use it every day with Sky HD and Blu-ray inputs. I don't intend opening it up again for a long time :)

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/Caiman AuriCap.jpg

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Something Martin included in his 'final';) iteration raised a question for me. How exactly does the muting relay work and when does it take effect? Can it introduce artificial silences into the music? I am pretty sure that's not the case but I'm wondering if Stan's very first post might be the best way to do the passive mode, taking the output from as close to the DAC as possible, via the coupling capacitors straight into the output pin of the RCAs. Using Auri's or Clarity caps will make this quite straight forward.

Like a Dornier pilot over London, I await to be shot down :doh:

I would also like to read short description/review of the sound difference between Clarity ESA and Auricap, please?
Now I am perplexed which one should I go for? :scratch:
Thank you

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Originally Posted by RoboCopper

I would also like to read short description/review of the sound difference between Clarity ESA and Auricap, please?
Now I am perplexed which one should I go for? :scratch:
Thank you

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Didn't Martin say the Auricap "pipped" the Clarity ESA? :scratch:
The Auricaps more than twice the price, so if the ESA gets close and its good (and by all accounts its great) then either one would be a safe bet?

Is it twice as good as the ESA though? ;)

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Originally Posted by Gazjam

Didn't Martin say the Auricap "pipped" the Clarity ESA? :scratch:
The Auricaps more than twice the price, so if the ESA gets close and its good (and by all accounts its great) then either one would be a safe bet?

Is it twice as good as the ESA though? ;)

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Yes, I did read and I did check in the web thesaurus and dictionary, but English is not my first language, hence I wanted to read more detailed review which I could understand easily.
Even checking in dictionary word "pipped" does not do much for me as I never heard/used it although I made a conclusion that Auricap won big time.

Even if I have read all the books from Shakespeare or was Ali G brother :), I think I would prefer more "audiophile" approach in comparison of both caps as I used to reading those typical reviews.
Only wanted two sentences :) e.g.(highs are extended and sweeter, bass is more defined and tighter, 3d stage is bigger, mids are more real and "magical"). This could be all correct in fact, so no comparison needed :)
Hope you understand. I was just about to order Clarity ESA ,then I read new post about Auricap which I think I will order.:)
Thank you:help:

These are subtle differences, guys, not night and day!

The ClarityCap ESA sounded very clean with transparent midrange, extended highs and a non-harsh overall sound but slightly light in the bass. Note that I was using 1uF 600V but into a 47k load so plenty of bass extension. They were better than the Rubycons but not by so much that the Rubycons are embarrassed.

The AuriCaps better the ClarityCaps by a small amount of midrange transparency and liquidity (female voice is truly beautiful), very wide soundstage and a very tight but extended and slightly weightier bass. Note that mine are 2.2uF 200V but I don't think the value differences account for the difference in quality of the bass.

Does that help? I say again, SUBTLE differences. All of these caps are good!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoboCopper

Yes, I did read and I did check in the web thesaurus and dictionary, but English is not my first language, hence I wanted to read more detailed review which I could understand easily.
Even checking in dictionary word "pipped" does not do much for me as I never heard/used it although I made a conclusion that Auricap won big time.

Even if I have read all the books from Shakespeare or was Ali G brother :), I think I would prefer more "audiophile" approach in comparison of both caps as I used to reading those typical reviews.
Only wanted two sentences :) e.g.(highs are extended and sweeter, bass is more defined and tighter, 3d stage is bigger, mids are more real and "magical"). This could be all correct in fact, so no comparison needed :)
Hope you understand. I was just about to order Clarity ESA ,then I read new post about Auricap which I think I will order.:)
Thank you:help:

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hey Roberto, :)
Martins your man for the review then, for me though the fact he picked the Auricap over the ESA would suggest he preferred it.
You might not though, depending on your system and your tastes....and thats the problem innit! :)

Booyakasha!

Thanks Martin,
I have a feeling that I will order both caps :) ,as sometimes I do feel need for lighter bass.
:champagne: 4u

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gazjam

hey Roberto, :)
Martins your man for the review then, for me though the fact he picked the Auricap over the ESA would suggest he preferred it.
You might not though, depending on your system and your tastes....and thats the problem innit! :)

Booyakasha!

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Peace brother :) :rave:

Hi

You might want to try the following that have reviewed various capacitors


http://http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

http://www.ecp.cc/cap-notes.html

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0

Hi 'u070125',

Welcome to AOS :)

Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your first name, basic geographic location, system details and music tastes, as this is the requirement for all new members joining AOS.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by u070125

Hi

You might want to try the following that have reviewed various capacitors


http://http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

http://www.ecp.cc/cap-notes.html

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0

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Great links! :)
the first one doesnt work though?

Hi
Ive updated the first link. I hope it works ok

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

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Originally Posted by u070125

Hi
Ive updated the first link. I hope it works ok

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

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Wha-hey!
Great first post by the way :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MartinT

These are subtle differences, guys, not night and day!

The ClarityCap ESA sounded very clean with transparent midrange, extended highs and a non-harsh overall sound but slightly light in the bass. Note that I was using 1uF 600V but into a 47k load so plenty of bass extension. They were better than the Rubycons but not by so much that the Rubycons are embarrassed.

The AuriCaps better the ClarityCaps by a small amount of midrange transparency and liquidity (female voice is truly beautiful), very wide soundstage and a very tight but extended and slightly weightier bass. Note that mine are 2.2uF 200V but I don't think the value differences account for the difference in quality of the bass.

Does that help? I say again, SUBTLE differences. All of these caps are good!

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Martin,
Thanks for this, but the little :scratch: one in me can not resist but to ask you if you have compared your Ayre C-5xe MP universal player with Caiman in passive mode with Auricaps?
I remember that Ayre was better against Clarity caps, but is the difference smaller now?
Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by u070125

Hi

You might want to try the following that have reviewed various capacitors


http://http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

http://www.ecp.cc/cap-notes.html

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0

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Another good read:
http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm#A

All excellent links, but I prefer this last one as the photo from the top (burning in) page, reminds me of burning/testing of passive mod of Beresford :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoboCopper

Thanks for this, but the little :scratch: one in me can not resist but to ask you if you have compared your Ayre C-5xe MP universal player with Caiman in passive mode with Auricaps?
I remember that Ayre was better against Clarity caps, but is the difference smaller now?

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The difference is still there, but ever diminishing! The Caiman+AuriCaps is doing an extremely fine job and, if I were looking for a CD solution now, it would be a definite purchase with a decent transport (say, a CEC or Teac). Do bear in mind, though, that my Caiman is extensively modified with Elna Silmic II caps and a SuperTeddy power supply, so add this into the cost. Nevertheless, it creates a killer CD player for very much less than a thousand Pounds.

The Ayre C-5xe MP is a bit special; where it gains is in the sheer structural solidity of the soundstage and the extremely extended bass, not to mention shades of fine detail and resolution of harmonics (I love choral music and this is important as the CD format is not good for massed choral vocals). It's also very non-harsh and this is where the MP upgrade made gains. Without MP, the Caiman+AuriCaps would be pretty much its equal. However, the Ayre is not inexpensive and so you pay a lot of money for a small gain, as ever in hi-fi.

I cannot praise the Caiman highly enough; it represents STUNNING value for money as well as having been a very pleasant upgrading project.

(Sorry for my english…it is not my native language)
I was very curious to see any frequency response differences (passive mode) with resistance load vs capacitors values to my lab.

Three preamp input resistance: 10K, 20K, 47K
vs
Three Capacitor Values: 2.2/10/47uF

Equipment: Caiman, emu 0404 usb 2.0 sound card
Software: RightMarkAudio Analyser Pro.
Bit/Resolution of Measures: 24bit/96KHz.

Comparative Table with Capacitor of 10uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attac...1&d=1286301185

Frequency Response with Capacitor of 10uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attac...1&d=1286301308


Comparative Table with Capacitor of 47uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attac...1&d=1286301545

Frequency Response with with Capacitor of 47uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attac...1&d=1286301571

(continued...)

Comparative Table with Capacitor of 2.2uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attac...1&d=1286301866


Frequency Response with Capacitor of 2.2uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attac...1&d=1286301897

Τhe data tell the truth ... we must have enough attention to the selection of the capacitance whith a low input impedance preamplifier.

Excellent work Manolis! :cool:
That illustrates the relationship very clearly and should help people choose what capacitance value to aim for. Thanks.

But watch the vertical scale: -1dB is a very small amount, barely discernible, and how many active preamps do you know with an input impedance of less than 47k ohms? Coupling caps are not for passive preamps anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MartinT

But watch the vertical scale: -1dB is a very small amount, barely discernible, and how many active preamps do you know with an input impedance of less than 47k ohms? Coupling caps are not for passive preamps anyway.

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Could you explain a bit more about why coupling caps are not for passive preamps? I have a passive preamp and I've been told that because it uses a 10K Alps potentiometer the input impedance is 10K, so surely that would make using a higher value coupling cap (in the DAC output) rather important. Or am I missing the point you're trying to make. That's quite possible. :lol: Cheers. :)

Yes, you could use a higher value coupling cap into a 10k ohm pot, but you might start hitting the drive limits of the DAC chip and your gain remains low. I personally far prefer an active preamp that doesn't have so many gain/noise/frequency compromises.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HighFidelityGuy

I have a passive preamp and I've been told that because it uses a 10K Alps potentiometer the input impedance is 10K, so surely that would make using a higher value coupling cap (in the DAC output) rather important. Or am I missing the point you're trying to make. That's quite possible. :lol: Cheers. :)

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Yes, you'd need a capacitor approximately 5 times the value of one that'd produce the same low frequency rolloff as with a 47 or 50K potentiometer ;)

I have just had a thought, i'm not sure whether you'd like to try this but i think a PM to the Caiman designer might well get you more information. In theory the Caiman will output zero volts with no signal, the only reason DC blocking caps are used is because of the op amp output which can & often indeed does have a DC offset. No op amp is perfect so you'll get a bit of DC which will cause a bit of noise if it's allowed to conduct through the volume pot.

You might be able to get away with doing away with the coupling cap altogether if using the passive mod. Again i'd suggest a PM to the man himself. Assuming the DAC output to be zero with zero input i see no need for the cap at all, it might be able to be replaced with a bit of wire :eyebrows:

Just a thought :)

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Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant

You might be able to get away with doing away with the coupling cap altogether if using the passive mod. Again i'd suggest a PM to the man himself. Assuming the DAC output to be zero with zero input i see no need for the cap at all, it might be able to be replaced with a bit of wire

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You can't. As I remember it, the Wolfson DAC chip has about 2.6V on its output, which is why you need a coupling cap.

Ah, yes indeed you'd need a coupling cap. Sounds like it uses a 5V & ground rather than +/- supplies :doh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant

Sounds like it uses a 5V & ground rather than +/- supplies

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Yep, thus the favourite mod of replacing the +5V standard 7805 regulator with something better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MartinT

These are subtle differences, guys, not night and day!

The ClarityCap ESA sounded very clean with transparent midrange, extended highs and a non-harsh overall sound but slightly light in the bass. Note that I was using 1uF 600V but into a 47k load so plenty of bass extension. They were better than the Rubycons but not by so much that the Rubycons are embarrassed.

The AuriCaps better the ClarityCaps by a small amount of midrange transparency and liquidity (female voice is truly beautiful), very wide soundstage and a very tight but extended and slightly weightier bass. Note that mine are 2.2uF 200V but I don't think the value differences account for the difference in quality of the bass.

Does that help? I say again, SUBTLE differences. All of these caps are good!

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Thanks for your breakdown Martin, thats helped me a lot
I'm going to give it a go with some non polar caps i have had given to me and go from there

Just intalled Stans eBay recommendation 10uF film cap...

They only JUST fit in the case. and that's lying flat on the pcb.
Also, the connecting wire is quite short- so a permanent install in the Dac would need some hookup wire soldered on to increase the length.

I've got them in with the case off...too early for a final idea of sound quality but out the box they are better than the Nicheon Muse I had in before...a fair bit better actually in transparency and solidity in the soundstage?
Because of this you get drawn into the music with hardly any effort, regardless of what it is.
Also, the bass is awesome. My amp is 50k Ohms and it's a 10uF cap...it goes L O O W..
Good stuff, film caps are better... :)

Can I expect the sound to change over time the way the electrolytic caps did?

Ta.

Yes, the midrange becomes even more transparent and the bass fills out a little.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gazjam

Just intalled Stans eBay recommendation 10uF film cap...

They only JUST fit in the case. and that's lying flat on the pcb.
Also, the connecting wire is quite short- so a permanent install in the Dac would need some hookup wire soldered on to increase the length.

I've got them in with the case off...too early for a final idea of sound quality but out the box they are better than the Nicheon Muse I had in before...a fair bit better actually in transparency and solidity in the soundstage?
Because of this you get drawn into the music with hardly any effort, regardless of what it is.
Also, the bass is awesome. My amp is 50k Ohms and it's a 10uF cap...it goes L O O W..
Good stuff, film caps are better... :)

Can I expect the sound to change over time the way the electrolytic caps did?

Ta.

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Oohh, Mr. Postie delivered mine today, they're BIG! I shall install later and see how they sound. Are they bipolar or whatever it's called - i.e. does it matter which leg gets plugged into the +/- hole? (Sorry for getting really technical! :lol:)

Hey Alex,

Naa, doesn't matter which way they go in...
simples!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gazjam

Hey Alex,

Naa, doesn't matter which way they go in...
simples!

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Cheers buddy, going to get my screwdrivers now! :eyebrows:

I'll give this one another go to see if anyone can shed light on this;

Something Martin included in his 'final' iteration raised a question for me. How exactly does the muting relay work and when does it take effect? Can it introduce artificial silences into the music? I am pretty sure that's not the case but I'm wondering if Stan's very first post might be the best way to do the passive mode, taking the output from as close to the DAC as possible, via the coupling capacitors straight into the output pin of the RCAs. Using Auri's or Clarity caps will make this quite straight forward.

Like a Dornier pilot over London, I await to be shot down

Cheers Andy

p.s. not sure why I came up with that one, unless it's because I'm off to Dresden next week:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

All done, the case is a little bowed but its screwed down (I have to worry about little fingers) and there is sound coming from both channels... Let the burn-in commence!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLED

Something Martin included in his 'final' iteration raised a question for me. How exactly does the muting relay work and when does it take effect? Can it introduce artificial silences into the music?

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Hi Andy

As I understand it, the muting relay only kicks in when there is no signal lock into the DAC and ensures that no spurious noise emerges from the DAC in an unlocked condition. I don't think the relay enables between tracks as far as I can tell.

There may not be spurious electrical noise coming out of the Caiman, but I have noticed mechanical noise - ie. the muting relay opening & closing.

It can occasionally be annoying.

Any suggestions for a more mechanically quiet relay ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alex_UK

All done, the case is a little bowed but its screwed down (I have to worry about little fingers) and there is sound coming from both channels... Let the burn-in commence!

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How did you get them in Alex...?
I tried and gave up figured I'd need to solder extra wire onto them
Also, where abouts in the Dac did you put them

An help Appreciated...no little fingers here, but two yellow "candles" sticking out under my tellys VERY annoying! :)

Ta.

I just laid them flat as best I could - I suspect they are in danger of blowing the thing up as the legs are unshielded and touching all sorts of bits, but not each other, and nothing else metal... I would take a picture but I fear if I open the case again they'll fly out like a jack-in-a-box! :lol:

Been running in for about 12 hours now, having a "Daddy Day Care" day today so will try and have a listen when she has her nap in an hour or two.

I temporarily used some hook up wire to lengthen the legs - twisted and soldered(insulated stuff). One fits at the side of the USB point and the other near the pot. I can close the lid easily.

I suspect that they will be a temporary project and I will eventually end up with something that fits better, does not need extension wires and sounds better than the benchmark grey Rubbies (if it exists).

Regards

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MartinT

Hi Andy

As I understand it, the muting relay only kicks in when there is no signal lock into the DAC and ensures that no spurious noise emerges from the DAC in an unlocked condition. I don't think the relay enables between tracks as far as I can tell.

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Thanks MArtin, that makes sense. Do you know where in the signal path the relay sits?

heers Andy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLED

Thanks MArtin, that makes sense. Do you know where in the signal path the relay sits?

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Only a guess: just before the op-amp board sockets, i.e. in series with the coupling caps.

OK, if that's the case, we'll have to get Stan's definitive, then at least we could connect the output of the caps straight onto the RCA's.

Hmmm

been following this thread with interest.

I have a 7510 mk6 DAC and have carried out the wire mod and the passive output mod.
Agreed, it gives a massive leap upwards in sound quality.

Strangely enough the caps I have found to give the best sound in my system
are the humble little red, rectangular 0.47uF, 100V WIMA mkp I bought from Maplin, a couple of years ago for about 50p each.

I've tried Jensens, Mundorfs and clarity caps of the same value, but none were as good as the little WIMAs.

With my 100K amplifier input impedance, they give -3dB point of 3.4Hz, which is low enough for me. :)

Steve

I ordered some 2.2uF auricaps and received an e-mail today to say they're out of stock. Doh! :doh:

Bernie - did you order from AudioCap? Bad luck, I must have had the last two :)

They're worth waiting for. The best caps I've used as coupling caps.

Yep, they should have some more at the end of the month. My ClarityCaps are sounding pretty damned good so I won't exactly be missing not having them. You're comments just made me a bit curious about trying them.:scratch:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gazjam

Just intalled Stans eBay recommendation 10uF film cap...

<snip>...a fair bit better actually in transparency and solidity in the soundstage?
Because of this you get drawn into the music with hardly any effort, regardless of what it is.
Also, the bass is awesome. My amp is 50k Ohms and it's a 10uF cap...it goes L O O W..
Good stuff, film caps are better... :)
<snip>

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Doesn't it indeed! Listening to The Prodigy - Fat of The Land (which I'll admit isn't a bass shy recording in the first place...) but things are rattling and shaking in my room which didn't before, including the sofa and me! (I didn't realise my speakers were capable of doing that!)

I'll try some more subtle recordings later (making the most of having the house to myself for an hour or two :eyebrows:) but they do seem something of a bargain - thanks Stan (again!)