Why is HFW so biased against vintage cartridges?

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Originally Posted by Beobloke

I cannot help but feel that they will all be limited by the 40 year old technology around which they are based – magnets have grown stronger, wire has become higher quality and thinner and stylus profiles have become more complex and better suited to their task since the DL103 first came into life.

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This tells to me you dont know a great deal about these vintage cartridges and why they are liked by so many people.
They are other cartridges not mentioned SL15 and Coral share the same musical flavour.
There are vintage speakers and speakers in production that at a price have the same musical flavour.

The thing that the cartridges and speaker drivers have in common is.......
ALNICO MAGNETS....... not Neo magnets, they also have wire so thin you need a glass to see it well the Coral does:doh:

I'm in complete agreement, chaps - especially re: Alnico magnets! Every time I hear a cartridge that uses them, I love it :cool:

I'm afraid that to my ears 95% of modern cartridges sound cold, clinical, rather 'frigid', and tonally, way too bright and somewhat thin sounding. The vast majority all seem to suffer from rising treble peaks. Who voices them like this and why? :scratch:

To my mind they just don't sound natural or anything like how real music does...

Hi Adam,

Welcome to AOS. Good to see you join David here at last :)

I'm just off to bed in a mo, so will come back to you later on your earlier, very informative, post!

Marco.

P.S Did you get the PM I sent?

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I'm afraid that to my ears 95% of modern cartridges sound cold, clinical, rather 'frigid', and tonally, way too bright and somewhat thin sounding. The vast majority all seem to suffer from rising treble peaks. Who voices them like this and why?

To my mind they just don't sound natural or anything like how real music does...

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I've been thinking for a long while now that most modern cartridges are the equivalent to a tomahawk - pretty good as a tool for scalping jobs, but not much good for anything else.

Modern AT's? .........Ortofon's?.............no thanks!
Speakers have been going that way for a long while too.

Couldn't agree more, Chris!!!

Right, we'll continue this later guys and gals... :goodnight:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I'm afraid that to my ears 95% of modern cartridges sound cold, clinical, rather 'frigid', and tonally, way too bright and somewhat thin sounding. The vast majority all seem to suffer from rising treble peaks. Who voices them like this and why? :scratch:

To my mind they just don't sound natural or anything like how real music does...

Hi Adam,

Welcome to AOS. Good to see you join David here at last :)

I'm just off to bed in a mo, so will come back to you later on your earlier, very informative, post!

Marco.

P.S Did you get the PM I sent?

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And therein lies the essential difference between our ears, as I find a good deal of older items to be rather, warm, wooly, fluffy and "nice" (dammit, there's that word again!). I was at a jazz concert in Chichester Cathedral not long ago and sat barely ten feet away from the drumkit - it reminded me that a real, live, unmiked drumkit is actually a pretty bright and cold sounding device and that most hi-fi systems make a pretty poor job of reproducing this effectively.

Marco - Yes I got your PM, thankyou. Somehow I suspect your last request might be a long shot! :)

Adam.

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Originally Posted by Beobloke

And therein lies the essential difference between our ears, as I find a good deal of older items to be rather, warm, wooly, fluffy and "nice" (dammit, there's that word again!). I was at a jazz concert in Chichester Cathedral not long ago and sat barely ten feet away from the drumkit - it reminded me that a real, live, unmiked drumkit is actually a pretty bright and cold sounding device and that most hi-fi systems make a pretty poor job of reproducing this effectively.

Marco - Yes I got your PM, thankyou. Somehow I suspect your last request might be a long shot! :)

Adam.

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That makes two of us Adam. I get to listen to a variety of bands that play locally and the drum kit is just one part of the performance that stands out. Snare is very incisive and if you can get close enough the impact and force is clearly felt...nothing like the sound from Hi-Fi

Alnico magnets……I’ve seen them mentioned before on other forums and once or twice in HFW. What make them so special compared to the rare earth types?

They have a much lower BH max energy and rather poor coercivity in comparison…they are easily demagnetized. They’re also larger than rare earth types for the same magnetic strength; they do work at higher temperatures though….good for playing your vinyl when the ambient reaches +200c ;)

Yes they are used in ‘speaker drive units but is that because of more practical considerations? IE: they don’t cost that much, they are resistant to corrosion in their natural state and they can be easily cast into the size and shape you need?

Yes the DL103 and M3D, plus many other carts from that era use them, but isn’t that more down to practicality as Alnico was probably the only commercially viable solution back in the 1960’s….

I think there’s a bit of an Audio myth built up around these magnets but I’ll stand corrected if there’s something I’ve overlooked. :)

If you want that type of speed of sound from your hifi you'll need paper cone speakers and high slew rate amplifiers.

Stan

Hi Adam,

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And therein lies the essential difference between our ears, as I find a good deal of older items to be rather, warm, wooly, fluffy and "nice" (dammit, there's that word again!).

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I'm completely with you there (couldn't agree more, in fact!) but you're missing the point. I don't do "warm", "wooly", "fluffy" or "nice" - nothing individually in my system sounds like that, and neither does my system, collectively as whole - far from it :)

The point I'm making is that the best classic cartridges when synergistically partnered and set-up properly sound in my experience much more natural and 'real' than some of the falsely 'pumped-up', treble-emphasised, abominations foisted upon us by manufacturers nowadays.

This treble emphasis is something which they mostly all exhibit, and is measurable, too. One only has to look at the likes of the Lyra Dorian or Argo, OC-9, and even the ludicrously expensive VDH Canary that Noel reviewed in last month's magazine, for evidence of this. And there are many more such examples. Now, whatever way you cut it, the fact that there is this emphasis on the upper frequencies means that it deviates quite significantly from neutrality, and therefore in effect the sound produced cannot be 'natural'.

Experience tells me that the DL-103SA or M3D, used in their correct 'operating environment' (I trust you know what I mean by that) do not exhibit such treble emphasis, or the overtly clinical portrayal of music of many modern designs, but *neither* do they sound dull, "warm", "wooly" or "fluffy" - trust me, I hate that sort of sound with a passion and could never tolerate listening to anything resembling it. The 103SA or M3D just sound 'right', and give music proper weight and 'foundation', without the lightweight, 'toppy' and often anaemic presentation of many modern designs in comparison.

In my view, it’s all about choosing your compromises. There’s a sonic penalty to pay with the use of modern 'fine-line' styli (pronounced treble emphasis, and an overtly analytical, rather 'cool' overall presentation), just as there is with traditional spherical types ('warmer', less explicitly detailed sound). Neither is perfect, but I know which one for me sounds most like real music. You may disagree, and that’s fine. Noel touches on this point in his comparison between the Blue and Bronze Ortofon Cadenza MCs in this month's mag.

I don't really expect you to fully 'get' what I mean about the 103SA and M3D, simply because you've not experienced how these cartridges can sound like others and I here have, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet any amount of money that you would if you came and listened to my system and heard it for yourself ;)

Hopefully David will 'get' it when he reviews the 'SL-1210 MP' (complete with 103SA) in a forthcoming issue of the magazine :cool:

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I was at a jazz concert in Chichester Cathedral not long ago and sat barely ten feet away from the drumkit - it reminded me that a real, live, unmiked drumkit is actually a pretty bright and cold sounding device and that most hi-fi systems make a pretty poor job of reproducing this effectively.

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No argument there whatsoever. Reproducing a drum kit anywhere near realistically is something that's beyond most hi-fi systems, although my 30W Class A P/P Copper amp and (huge) Lockwood Majors with 95db 15" Tannoy Monitor Reds have a fairly good go at it! :fingers:

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Marco - Yes I got your PM, thankyou. Somehow I suspect your last request might be a long shot!

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LOL - indeed! One can but try. I bet he reads them, though! :eyebrows:

Marco.

P.S I'll get to your earlier 'introductory' post later. I'm not long up, so my wee brain hasn't fully kicked-in yet!

hi all,
there is indeed a diffrence between alnico and modern magnet material, but as some have already said,,, i too think it is probably due to its deficiancies rather than its merrets, [stay with me here] i would compare this diffrence to shock absorbers on a car, if you want comfort use soft ones, if you want the suspension to act as quickly as posible then fit more powerfull shocks! what i am saying is,,, the reason i think alnico based speakers and cartridges have this paticular sonic performance is because the magnetic feild produced is weaker hence the control over the moving parts is weaker...
anthony,TD...
PS, before i get slated for something i havent actually said, i would just like to point out that somewhere between the two technologies there is a compromise and neither in my opinion is right or wrong, just diffrent!