Truly amazed

Some years ago I bought some Kimber PBJ cable off the reel from the other side of the Atlantic. RA always puts direction markers on the same cable, which is sensible to ensure that each piece is used the same way, but these had nothing so I asked Kimber about directionality. Back came the straightforward reply that the cable is not directional as such, but "becomes" directional after about 2 weeks of use, and if turned around, will take another 2 weeks to become directional in the other direction. So direction does matter, but not for long. I hope that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Shuggie

Back came the straightforward reply that the cable is not directional as such, but "becomes" directional after about 2 weeks of use, and if turned around, will take another 2 weeks to become directional in the other direction. So direction does matter, but not for long. I hope that makes sense.

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It could also make sense that pulling the plugs out and reconnecting them removes tarnish and creates a clean contact ;)

I am still having trouble qualifying Kimber's statement that it takes two weeks to "become directional" because how do they test that hypothesis? The second they yank the plug out, the build-up of directionality suddenly vanishes :scratch:

Sure, pulling plugs out does have an effect; also dressing cables in a different way around the rack, but in the latter case I'm buggered if I can explain why that can have such a profound effect on listening satisfaction.

Kimber's point is probably the same phenomenon as new solder joints taking a while to sound "right", which is something that I have most definitely noticed for myself. Surely you have too, Frank? That aside, I don't particularly care about the issue, but was happy that as long as I used the Kimber cables the same way round, they'd be delivering the best performance, thus allowing me to forget about cables, directionality etc.

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I am still having trouble qualifying Kimber's statement that it takes two weeks to "become directional" because how do they test that hypothesis? The second they yank the plug out, the build-up of directionality suddenly vanishes

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Maybe you have misunderstood what I meant by Kimber's remarks. They are not suggesting that the directional effect, built up over two weeks of use, evaporates as soon as the cables are disconnected; and it is somewhat mischievous to imply that. They said that the directional effect is permanent until the cables are used in reverse, in which case the cables will settle down and become directional, the other way round, as it were. As for Kimber's "hypothesis", I do like to think that they know a thing or two about metallurgy, cable construction etc. Maybe they listen to their products too!

I think we need to be a bit careful here when talking about directionality of cables.
Some most definitely are and measurably so. Not all cables are built with the same wire and screen configuration.

Plain wire interconnects DNM Reson for example.
Two equally spaced conductors, one signal wire and one ground wire both connected at plug. Directionality shouldn’t be an issue with this type.

Coax style cables.
These have a centre conductor for signal and often use the shield for ground. Signal and ground (Shield) connected at both ends.
A lot is going to depend on how the RCA sockets are connected at each end and the connected components ability to filter out noise. But, I would be surprised if directionality was an issue.
My feeling with this type of cable is due to the ground/screen conductor having a much larger surface area than the signal conductor wire any RF noise the cable picks up, (that’s what the screen is for, it stops RF reaching the signal/centre conductor) may be introduced into the system; probably not an issue for balanced input/output components if balanced input has a transformer.

Separate signal conductors (one signal hot and one ground cold) plus screen.
These tend to come in three configurations.

Unbalanced.
Signal and ground conductors connected at both ends, screen not connected to plugs at either end.
I can’t see why these should be directional.

Semi Balanced.
Signal and ground conductors connected at both ends and screen connected at one end only.
These most definitely are directional. Whether the directionality is audible is another matter.
Any noise the screen picks up is grounded at one end of the cable. It is generally accepted that it is preferable to return any noise the screen picks up to source and ground it there, rather than sending it on to the receiving component and ground it there.
Once again a lot is going to depend on the input and output configuration of the relevant components.

Fully balanced.
These have signal and ground and shield connected to the plug at both ends; the shield is connected to the ground at both ends. This is the Pro audio favorite.

Its quite interesting to have a look inside the component enclosures and see how the ground is connected. Very few domestic Hi Fi components I’ve seen are fully balanced and even fewer are balanced and even fewer have a transformer (no physical connection from one side to the other) balancing stage.

One method of grounding shield I’ve used is to run the shield to ground using a long lead to my power condition box earth. In theory all noise picked up by the shield doesn’t enter the signal path in any of the components but you really need to do this with every shielded cable and equipment chassis earth. If its not done right you may get ground loop hum.

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Originally Posted by Shuggie

Kimber's point is probably the same phenomenon as new solder joints taking a while to sound "right", which is something that I have most definitely noticed for myself. Surely you have too, Frank? That aside, I don't particularly care about the issue, but was happy that as long as I used the Kimber cables the same way round, they'd be delivering the best performance, thus allowing me to forget about cables, directionality etc.

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There is no doubt in my mind that things like burn in do occur with any new cable. Even more surprising is if you leave a cable in a drawer unconnected for any length of time, you have to start the burn in process all over again. I have a mains lead here that sounds dreadful for the first few minutes of being connected up after not being used and gradually improves over a few hours.

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Maybe you have misunderstood what I meant by Kimber's remarks. They are not suggesting that the directional effect, built up over two weeks of use, evaporates as soon as the cables are disconnected; and it is somewhat mischievous to imply that. They said that the directional effect is permanent until the cables are used in reverse, in which case the cables will settle down and become directional, the other way round, as it were. As for Kimber's "hypothesis", I do like to think that they know a thing or two about metallurgy, cable construction etc. Maybe they listen to their products too!

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I knew my comments would be misconstrued as I was typing them :) It's the nature of that AC signal current flow back and forth through the cable that still leaves a big nagging doubt in my mind about directionality properties.

Now if we were talking about a DC current flow from one component to another then I wouldn't be quite as sceptical about the directionality issue. Part of that problem too is I have not heard the "directionality effect" despite the large number of dealings I have had within the cable business, that others say they have heard and perhaps if I did, my stance would of course be rather different.

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Originally Posted by Effem

I started this thread on the basis they were cheap AND sounded very good on two systems I have here, one solid state and the other valve.

I bought a single set out of curiosity based upon my findings with the Belkin PF30 and the results I obtained from that pair induced me to buy a second set without any hesitation and the two sets together in the chain yielded far better results than even I had anticipated.

Being the former owner of Krystal Kables I have had more cables through my hands than I could care to remember, some of which had some lofty price tags too I might add, so it completely took my breath away that these poverty budget wires could produce an almost ruler flat frequency scale that emphasised no element of the sound spectrum, inasmuch as they didn't have any bass or treble uplift or attenuation at all, or having a recessed midband as the overwhelming majority of cables tend to exhibit. At the same time giving increased top end detail and bottom end welly, which sounds like contradicting the previous sentence, but that is where the english language has it's own set of inadequacies.

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Well I'll be damned! Last night, sat down for a listen, and hey! -- I thought that everything sounded even better than usual.

Could it be that the Belkin had finally burned in? I haven't made any other changes since I've installed the Belkin interconnects. I honestly thought I was hearing MORE (and this sorta coincides with hitting the 20 hour burn in milestone for this cable).

Now I can't wait to get my hands on another pair of these (still sitting somewhere in the USPS purgatory), to connect them from the pre amp into the power amp.

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

Well I'll be damned! Last night, sat down for a listen, and hey! -- I thought that everything sounded even better than usual.

Could it be that the Belkin had finally burned in? I haven't made any other changes since I've installed the Belkin interconnects. I honestly thought I was hearing MORE (and this sorta coincides with hitting the 20 hour burn in milestone for this cable).

Now I can't wait to get my hands on another pair of these (still sitting somewhere in the USPS purgatory), to connect them from the pre amp into the power amp.

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It could be that you put your expectations away for a moment :) My best tip with any hi-fi purchase is to unpack it, plug it in to make sure it works OK then switch off and leave it alone, then actually listen to it a good few hours later - next day is even better if you have the patience. I have to go through this process tomorrow in fact when hopefully my new toy arrives :eyebrows:

All that excitement of the doorbell ringing, grabbing the box from the courier, signing the docket, then ripping all the packaging open and shoving it into the rack, all plays havoc with your adrenaline and stress levels, so you can easily make incorrect snap judgements about new components. This is the very same reason why blind ABX tests are doomed to fail once the word "test" is mentioned and/or having a strange environment to cope with as well stuffs it right from the outset.

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Originally Posted by Shuggie

Back came the straightforward reply that the cable is not directional as such, but "becomes" directional after about 2 weeks of use, and if turned around, will take another 2 weeks to become directional in the other direction. So direction does matter, but not for long. I hope that makes sense.

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Somewhere in Russ Andrew's documentation, he said the same thing. It may have been one of his useful system guides.

If you don't believe in cable directionality, try reversing just one channel. :eek:

Just as an aside to all this technical banter, if anyone is interested in finding out what the fuss is all about, there may be an opportunity for you to get some of the cables that started all of this off here:

http://www.bigoffers.co.uk

......as far as I can understand, the one in the original post are double shielded, all copper with silver solder:
4.9 metre pair for a fiver:
http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.p...s+(AV50300QP08)...

2.4m pair for three quid:
http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.p...udio+Cable+RCA...



There are also these:
http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.p...s+(AV50300QP08)...

And these:
http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.p...udio+Cable+RCA...

For all the above, it's £4.99 maximum p+p charge for whatever you buy from the site - up to a pallet load!!!!

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Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo

Just as an aside to all this technical banter, if anyone is interested in finding out what the fuss is all about, there may be an opportunity for you to get some of the cables that started all of this off here:

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Curses, you pesky lumberjack, I'd have been alright if it wasn't for you and your tempting links... pair of each duly ordered, (plus a "tadpole" mobile phone thingy which I couldn't resist for a quid - passed on the Ear Pick Earwax Remover though - yeuch! - some others might find it useful though - could be the next big upgrade!) Theres some great Belkin computer cables on there too, firewire etc.

Looks like Dave DSJR was right after all, in that he knew I'd cave in, but I did pretty well at holding out for nearly 2 months I think!