Shure M3D - yet another truly great classic cartridge

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Originally Posted by DSJR

To conclude on first listening, I'd say things got worse for Shure when the M44/55 series came along, these latter models sounding both dull and sharp at the same time. Even the V15 II needed a good few years of development into the era III version to get a coherent character. The M3D/N21 is a forgotten classic (Yes, you're right Marco!!!:lol:) and I look forward to giving it some when I can afford to get one of the arms sorted and mounted on the Tecchie.....

To quote Mr Spock, "Fascinating!!!" :)


P.S. No needle talk on this sample to speak of, but the counterweight is so far out the back I can't get the lid on when I've finished...................................

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First of all your expression that I have highlighted is precisely the definition of an oxymoron (from the Greek oxys: sharp and moron: dull), that is, an obvious and nonsensical contradiction.

But seriously, I'm finding this debate fascinating as the M3D was my first cartridge, which was then replaced with an M55E. Both were used in an SME, with the M3D tracking at 4g and the 55E at, I think, 1.5g. At the time (35 years ago) I thought the M55E was significantly better. Unfortunately I no longer have the M3D (fitted with whatever was the standard issue stylus: N3D?) but still have a sample of a 55E. I ought to revisit the 55E to see if it sounds as bad as you say, but I'm not sure if I can be bothered, if it really does sound that bad vis a vis modern cartridges.

Knowing that the M3D, has a low compliance (4cu according to my 1971 Hi Fi Yearbook), maybe the SME was innapropriate (I calculate the LF resonance to be close to 17Hz) and additional mass should have been added to the cartridge. Also, I wonder if the interest being shown in the likes of Ortofon SPUs, EMTs, early Deccas etc. as well as the M3D, is because they are of low compliance and are fitted with conical tipped stylii. I have yet to be convinced on the use of alnico magnets, but am open to persuasion.

Regards
Barry

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Originally Posted by barry.d.hunt

First of all your expression that I have highlighted is precisely the definition of an oxymoron (from the Greek oxys: sharp and moron: dull), that is, an obvious and nonsensical contradiction.

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It's a bit like the derivation of the word 'Politics'

Poly meaning many........
and ticks being parasitic insects.

Or:

'Expert'

Where an Ex is a has-been
and a Spurt is an uncontrollable drip.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo

It's a bit like the derivation of the word 'Politics'

Poly meaning many........
and ticks being parasitic insects.

Or:

'Expert'

Where an Ex is a has-been
and a Spurt is an uncontrollable drip.

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:lolsign:

Barry

Hi Dave,

Great news - nice one :)

You should've known yer uncle Marco knows best... :eyebrows: ;)

Seriously though, you had ME at one point questioning if I was hearing things or not, such was the severity of your 'anti-M3D-ness'!! :lol:

I'll add some further comment later when I've got more time. I'm sure the best is yet to come with yours, so enjoy!

Marco.

I have an M55E mk2 with the drop down stylus guard and will play with that as and when.

What I meant by the sound of the above being soft and sharp was that the M55 and V15 II have a severe suckout followed by a massive peak at around 16 - 19KHz, which has the deleterious effect of overloading many phono stages on surface ticks and pops. I found the M55E to have almost a tinsel effect which I didn't really like. The ADCs' generally sweet neutrality is far to my taste.

I'm looking forward to getting the Techie going.

P.S. I tried the N21D at 2.5 grammes and heard little difference on a quick listen, so 2 grammes it'll stay for now.

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Originally Posted by DSJR

I have an M55E mk2 with the drop down stylus guard and will play with that as and when.

What I meant by the sound of the above being soft and sharp was that the M55 and V15 II have a severe suckout followed by a massive peak at around 16 - 19KHz, which has the deleterious effect of overloading many phono stages on surface ticks and pops. I found the M55E to have almost a tinsel effect which I didn't really like. The ADCs' generally sweet neutrality is far to my taste.

I'm looking forward to getting the Techie going.

P.S. I tried the N21D at 2.5 grammes and heard little difference on a quick listen, so 2 grammes it'll stay for now.

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Interesting, both of the M55Es I had/have do not have a drop stylus guard - in fact I didn't know there was a Mk II version. Perhaps I will have to relisten to my sample after all. After trying the M55E, the next Shure cartridges I used were the V15 II (imp), then the V15 III, whereupon my interest in Shures ended. I had by that time been introduced to the Ortofon SL15E and was switching my allegiance to ADC, which I think are better designs (I still have the 10E IV, 25 and 26 models).

Out of curiosity, how much additional mass are you using with the M3D and what is the effective mass of your Dual(?) arm?

Regards
Barry

Dave,

Have you missed Barry's post above, matey? :)

Marco.

Apologies - yes, I missed it.......

The Dual has an effective mass of around 15 grammes I think (judging from a review of it's somehow less substantial replacement, the 704). the arm-resonances are distributed across the upper midband and with some cartridges like the B&O SP12 I have (with 1/2" mounting bracket) and a Pickering V15 TE I bought initially for the GL75, the handling "feedback noises" are horrendous. Interestingly, with the MC's I have it doesn't happen, nor with the ADC's/Sonus Blue to any extent.

I had some lead weights that I'd picked up from various far eastern cartridges way back in the seventies and I used a broad oblong one I found, which I estimate at 5 grammes. The total mass is almost too high for the counterweight to handle and although I was getting great results, I've been playing with various successes with the other "newbie" cartridges in my collection.

The lasting effect for now is of a big, generously hearted cartridge with midrange depth and delicacy it really shouldn't have. Since this is my first experience of the N21 version, I suspect this must have something to do with it. Shame is, the N21 deserves an EJ style tip - better than a conical but not a "full" eliptical in the traditional sense. Even so, The Finetone edition N21 stylus tracks well right through to side end and is great on older and possibly worn records (those UK pressed Epic and WEA LP's from the mid 70's are often hideous with a fine-line stylus as I suspect the grooves are too shallow...).

I found the M55E II, which came along in this form around the early eighties IIRC. The cantilever is crushed so I can't use it, but if you look on many of the US styli sites, you'll see the transparent stylus guard if an original is pictured. The next big thing could be the M75-6S that found its way into the later Garrard SP25 IV. Apparently, the basic body mount can be more solid than the upper-model M75's which come unstuck and the open body style can take practically any of the era's Shure styli - M75/91 series etc. to the V15 III series apparently.

The thing is, ADC's have a magic in the mid which I like very much. I found a new VLM Mk2 stylus and compared it to the XLM III and ZLM I have (same body for the test). The VLM has an "energy" to it which I think Marco would like, but I have to say that the XLM III with tapered cantilever and good quality tip and the ZLM with its fine-line one do have the edge in delicacy. The MC's I've been playing with have the potential to eat them alive though.

I'm reserving full judgement on the M3D/M21 until I have a more suitable arm/deck for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DSJR

Apologies - yes, I missed it.......

The Dual has an effective mass of around 15 grammes I think (judging from a review of it's somehow less substantial replacement, the 704). the arm-resonances are distributed across the upper midband and with some cartridges like the B&O SP12 I have (with 1/2" mounting bracket) and a Pickering V15 TE I bought initially for the GL75, the handling "feedback noises" are horrendous. Interestingly, with the MC's I have it doesn't happen, nor with the ADC's/Sonus Blue to any extent.

I had some lead weights that I'd picked up from various far eastern cartridges way back in the seventies and I used a broad oblong one I found, which I estimate at 5 grammes. The total mass is almost too high for the counterweight to handle and although I was getting great results, I've been playing with various successes with the other "newbie" cartridges in my collection.

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Hello Dave,
Thanks for your reply. I am puzzled by the lack of 'handling noise' you find with the ADCs/Sonus. Assuming a cartridge mass of 5g for the B&O SP12 and with a compliance of 25cu, using this cartridge in your Dual arm would place the LF resonance at around 7Hz, which might explain your findings. However the ADC/Sonus have a similar mass and compliance, yet you report no problem, despite the LF resonance being too low. :confused: Moving coil cartridges usually have a lower compliance, though not low enough to move the LF resonance to say 10Hz, so :scratch:.

When I had the M3D, I used it in an SME. It was fitted with the standard 'cooking' N3D stylus. I calculate that under these conditions it would have had an LF resonance of ~17Hz; this time too high. So using it in a higher mass arm with some additional mass makes sense.

I still intend to give the M55E a spin but it is slipping down my list of priorities.

Regards
Barry

The low frequency resonance is something to do with HOW MUCH as well as what frequency I think.

The Dual arm has a tuned counterweight (the main mass is suspended on a spring of somsort inside the cage to cancel out as much as possible any reactions with the chassis suspension) and this minimises the huge rise at resonance apparently. The "handling feedback" I refer to is a structural microphony whan I man-handle the headshell area and with the Pickering it's very severe. The ADC varients don't seem to do this and neither do the V15's or the heavier MC's.

The M3D would have a truly MASSIVE arm/cart resonance I suspect and an SME (even the pre-improved) would struggle to contain this I reckon. used with a very heavy arm with solid headshell as Marco does, should reduce the resonant frequency as well as the amplitude. The N21 stylus does seem a slightly finer and better damped device altogether, judging from my non Shure replacement.

Regarding arm-cartridge resonant frequency, an old pal of mine (Graham Holliman) used to use a Sansui direct drive (the one with the best W&F figures in an Angus MacKenzie test) with an ADC XLM - the very highly compliant one - and weight the headshell down even further, giving a resonant frequency of 5 Hz. Surprisingly, the thing was quite stable on most discs and on well recorded Decca pressings of things like Kings College Cambrige Choir, the sound through his JBL Paragon clones was palpable, if extremely coloured - the atmosphere of the venue easily felt as well as heard. Inserting a 20Hz filter as many phono stages do made the sound more "mechanical" somehow.......