Jimbos Audio ramblings

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry

I was told by a reputable music and audio shop that one should start with a VTF 0.25g below the maximum recommended value, and then experiment with with smaller values (in say 0.25g steps).
Contrary to expectation, more wear will occur to both record and stylus if the cartridge undertracks.

---

i usually did same oddly. dunno why but i agree that i'd rather it be slightly heavy than too light

Yes, I have followed that advice for the last 50 years with cartridges costing anywhere between £15 and over £1,000.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry

I suggest you follow the Linn school of arm/cartridge installation: tighten everything until the threads strip, then slacken off a quarter turn. :lol:

---

Yeah I remember that was the mantra.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry

I was told by a reputable music and audio shop that one should start with a VTF 0.25g below the maximum recommended value, and then experiment with with smaller values (in say 0.25g steps).
Contrary to expectation, more wear will occur to both record and stylus if the cartridge undertracks.

---

That makes sense. I’ve ordered a calibrated digital VTF gauge that’s supposed to be accurate. Once here I’ll try 2.1g and back off 0.1g and see where I like the SQ best, if there is any difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry

I was told by a reputable music and audio shop that one should start with a VTF 0.25g below the maximum recommended value, and then experiment with with smaller values (in say 0.25g steps).
Contrary to expectation, more wear will occur to both record and stylus if the cartridge undertracks.

---

The Pro-Ject Digital VTF gauge arrived this morning, not expensive £20, it comes with calibration weight, which I checked and is spot on 5gm, the spec says it is accurate to 0.01gm and will not deviate.

I first calibrated the gauge as in the instructions and then before doing anything else checked the existing tracking weight which I thought to be set at around 2.0gm using the balance gauge, the Pro-Ject gauge indicated 2.18gm, so quite a bit higher than I thought I had set. No big issue as still within the recommended 1.8-2.2gm tracking force advised. I did check the tracking force again with the anti-skate removed, this in fact added 0.15mg, so a reading of 2.33gm. So the effect of anti-skate devices on tracking force is possibly something to consider when setting up a cartridge, I seem to recall reading this somewhere once.

Next I adjusted the tracking weight to the originally intended 2.0gm, and then had a listen to two favourite test listening tracks. Result was a subtle improvement in clarity. Having watched the video posted previously https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ApPo7htUg I decided to completely check on the cartridge set up, playing particular attention to VTA, azimuth, and cartridge alignment(Zenith Error). I had heard that a stylus could be incorrectly mounted at the wrong angle causing 'Zenith Error" but had not really understood this before. Obviously without a very powerful microscope it is impossible to determine if this is the case or not, however using the starting point of getting the cartridge perfectly aligned so that it is parallel with a set up gauge is where I started. What I found was it was minutely out of alignment, having adjust this I set VTA, and azimuth and rechecked everything, then set VTF. I listened to my two favourite test tracks Ravi Shankar - 'Tala Rasa Ranga' on Portrait of Genius and Eva Cassidy - 'Fields of Gold' on Nightbird, what I noticed was a slightly more focused soundstage, and more top end clarity.

Maybe I was lucky and just happened to get the cartridge set up better, who knows?, I certainly think that if a cartridge doesn't sound quite right that minute changes to the alignment that improve the VTA and Zenith can be worthwhile, but this can be a very tricky and an exacting process, requiring patience and very minute adjustments and listening after each to see if it improves.

I wonder if anyone has had their stylus checked to determine how far off it is mounted?

Having done the above this then lead me to mount my Goldring 2500 MI cartridge which was already on another head shell. I have been pleased with it in the past but always returned to the Benz-Micro as I felt some detail was missing with the Goldring. I carefully checked the cartridge alignment in the head shell and this was slight off, once on the arm I went through the complete set up process, checking all alignments and setting a 1.8gm VTF. On went the previous two test listening tracks and I was immediately taken aback, the Goldring had come alive in the top end, detail that previously I thought was missing was now present and the soundstage was great.

So to sum up I think that spending time to carefully get your cartridge right is very important, I doubt it matters how much it costs, probably a badly set up expensive one will sound no better than a perfectly set up cartridge a 1/10 the price. If it does not sound right then adjust it by very small increments and listen carefully to it using easy to listen to tracks with clear instrumentation, and highs and lows, rock music is probably not the best for this, and use a clear female vocal recording to listen for sibilance and try and minimise it. I've certainly learnt something and the result is very well worth the effort.

The Goldring is staying on the turntable for now as I am rather enjoying it.

Great account of your trials and tribulations with cartridge set up there Adrian. I have to agree that even small changes in any of the set parameters does have a significant effect on SQ but as you mentioned best to move in very small amounts until you hear what sounds right to you. Add in the complication of vinyl thickness and it can be a bit frustrating but once your in the ball park I don't hit this is too much to worry about unless your really anal about cartridge set up with different weights of vinyl.

I am going to have a few sessions myself in the next few days to see if I can eliminate some of the slightly negative aspects I am hearing currently which are prominent in the midrange, namely a bit of hardness and forward presentation. Not sure this can be resolved by stylus set up but the article I linked to suggested this could be the result of incorrect VTA so I will have a go.:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Great account of your trials and tribulations with cartridge set up there Adrian. I have to agree that even small changes in any of the set parameters does have a significant effect on SQ but as you mentioned best to move in very small amounts until you hear what sounds right to you. Add in the complication of vinyl thickness and it can be a bit frustrating but once your in the ball park I don't hit this is too much to worry about unless your really anal about cartridge set up with different weights of vinyl.

I am going to have a few sessions myself in the next few days to see if I can eliminate some of the slightly negative aspects I am hearing currently which are prominent in the midrange, namely a bit of hardness and forward presentation. Not sure this can be resolved by stylus set up but the article I linked to suggested this could be the result of incorrect VTA so I will have a go.:rolleyes:

---

Thanks James, as you and others may be aware I listen to my system and LPs a lot so I think my ears have become quite accustomed to how it sounds, for good or bad, so I was quite surprised by findings, as I said I though I had cartridge set up licked, but obviously not, hitting the sweet spot is not easy, but can be achieved with knowledge and patience.

With respect to VTA and its impact on SQ, I have definitely experienced this, one TT and arm seemed to be more effected than others I have had. I came to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, the effect was exaggerated due to poor arm isolation from the platter and the platter had resonance issues. So lowering the arm as little as 0.5-1mm at the rear would result in what could be described as a bloated sound in the low registers, raise it up other way and the the bloat went but top end became forward and toppy, with sibilance made worse (possibly what you describe). I went back to basics and set the are height so that the head shell was dead level/parallel to the record, and set everything else up to spec, and test listened. After trying dealing in several VTF settings I found the best for me was with the arm raised at the rear very slightly by about 0.25mm.

With my current TT/arm I do not have the same issues and with the 3 main cartridges I use a perfectly level tonearm/head shell which seems to work for them all.

As you maybe aware I am a long time sufferer of the 2M Black and have spent years tweaking the alignment of this cartridge and definitely notice the difference VTA makes with the radical Shibata stylus. However I have come to the conclusion that it is probably best set up with the cartridge parallel to the record surface for all round listening enjoyment. Moving it into any other angle does probably find the sweet spot for stylus rake angle but it may not sound great on all records or to my ear.

set it to 92 degrees and leave it imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJSki2fly

Thanks James, as you and others may be aware I listen to my system and LPs a lot so I think my ears have become quite accustomed to how it sounds, for good or bad, so I was quite surprised by findings, as I said I though I had cartridge set up licked, but obviously not, hitting the sweet spot is not easy, but can be achieved with knowledge and patience.

With respect to VTA and its impact on SQ, I have definitely experienced this, one TT and arm seemed to be more effected than others I have had. I came to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, the effect was exaggerated due to poor arm isolation from the platter and the platter had resonance issues. So lowering the arm as little as 0.5-1mm at the rear would result in what could be described as a bloated sound in the low registers, raise it up other way and the the bloat went but top end became forward and toppy, with sibilance made worse (possibly what you describe). I went back to basics and set the are height so that the head shell was dead level/parallel to the record, and set everything else up to spec, and test listened. After trying dealing in several VTF settings I found the best for me was with the arm raised at the rear very slightly by about 0.25mm.

With my current TT/arm I do not have the same issues and with the 3 main cartridges I use a perfectly level tonearm/head shell which seems to work for them all.

---

if you have an off set headshell then you are also changing azimuth,that impacts the sound more than a 0.25mm of vta adjustment to vta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karma1967

if you have an off set headshell then you are also changing azimuth,that impacts the sound more than a 0.25mm of vta adjustment to vta.

---

My head shells are not offset, I think, but please explain?

hold out your right arm with your hand flat and pointing to the right,bending at the elbow drop your arm down and you will see your hand tilting,its the same with a tonearm.

Hey Adrian I have that Ravi Shanker album - Portrait of a Genius - It has been with me for the last 40 years and is a favourite. The recording is stunning and the music is sublime!

So do I. :)

Bloody hippies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macca

Bloody hippies.

---

I think attitudes changed when The Path to Spiritual Enlightenment was renamed the A500.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karma1967

if you have an off set headshell then you are also changing azimuth,that impacts the sound more than a 0.25mm of vta adjustment to vta.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJSki2fly

My head shells are not offset, I think, but please explain?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karma1967

hold out your right arm with your hand flat and pointing to the right,bending at the elbow drop your arm down and you will see your hand tilting,its the same with a tonearm.

---

Sorry I was talking a crock of poo, of course my head shell has an offset in the normal meaning of a tonearm design, I was having a brain fart moment.

I still don't get what you mean it causing azimuth change, maybe I am being thick.

If the head shell/cartridge mounting platform is set up parallel to the surface of the record when the stylus is in the record groove, then surely as the stylus moves across the record surface the cartridge will remain vertically aligned at 90 degrees to the record, in other words the Azimuth will remain stable as set. Do you mean the Horozontal Tracking Angle will alter, and that the stylus will only be perfectly aligned to the records glove at the two null points as the arm/stylus is set up to?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gazjam

I for one look forward to being old, incontinent and a burden on my Family.
One down already, two to go.


...Not saying which one mind.

---

But you're 35 and no trouble to your relatives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJSki2fly

Sorry I was talking a crock of poo, of course my head shell has an offset in the normal meaning of a tonearm design, I was having a brain fart moment.

I still don't get what you mean it causing azimuth change, maybe I am being thick.

If the head shell/cartridge mounting platform is set up parallel to the surface of the record when the stylus is in the record groove, then surely as the stylus moves across the record surface the cartridge will remain vertically aligned at 90 degrees to the record, in other words the Azimuth will remain stable as set. Do you mean the Horozontal Tracking Angle will alter, and that the stylus will only be perfectly aligned to the records glove at the two null points as the arm/stylus is set up to?

---

i mean if you set azimuth correctly and then raise or lower the tonearm at the back to adjust sra/vta you are also changing azimuth and will have to set it again. its why setting sra/vta is done first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karma1967

i mean if you set azimuth correctly and then raise or lower the tonearm at the back to adjust sra/vta you are also changing azimuth and will have to set it again. its why setting sra/vta is done first.

---

Sorry Jamie, I still don't get it, Azimuth as I understand it is the angle of the stylus in the groove, that is when you look at the cartridge/stylus from the front, setting the azimuth is getting the stylus perfectly aligned vertically at 90 degrees to the record, that's my understanding anyway. If you adjust VTA/SRA by raising or lowering the rear of the arm, it will change the rake angle of the stylus in the groove, in perfect world you want to get as close to 92 degree SRA as possible.

I found this very informative https://www.analogplanet.com/content...rake-angle-sra

and

https://www.originhifi.com/blog/3556...-Guide?q=35567

I didn't think VTA affected Azimuth:scratch:

Azimuth is affected by everything sadly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by struth

Azimuth is affected by everything sadly

---

I will keep that in mind when I next have a fiddle!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by struth

Azimuth is affected by everything sadly

---

How? Azimuth in the context of a stylus is defined as a vertical centre line through it, looking at the front of it, and correct setting of Azimuth is so it is at a right angle to the record surface, or have I misunderstood something here?

Or is it that due to the geometry of an arm tracking across the record the angle of the head shell changes very slightly, so it may be spot in the centre of a LP but slightly out at the outer and inner edges? If this is the case then the difference to the Azimuth must be minute, and with a modern cut stylus I would have thought likely to have minimal significance?

:scratch:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJSki2fly

Sorry Jamie, I still don't get it, Azimuth as I understand it is the angle of the stylus in the groove, that is when you look at the cartridge/stylus from the front, setting the azimuth is getting the stylus perfectly aligned vertically at 90 degrees to the record, that's my understanding anyway. If you adjust VTA/SRA by raising or lowering the rear of the arm, it will change the rake angle of the stylus in the groove, in perfect world you want to get as close to 92 degree SRA as possible.

I found this very informative https://www.analogplanet.com/content...rake-angle-sra

and

https://www.originhifi.com/blog/3556...-Guide?q=35567

---

it changes because your headshell and cartridge are offset to the pivot point,because they are they are moving in an arc when the tonearm goes up and down .as you rightly say correct azimuth is having the sylus tip sitting perctly in the groove,im just saying that altering your sra/vta after this will throw azimuth out.
have a look on the wally tools site,top of the google search results.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJSki2fly

How? Azimuth in the context of a stylus is defined as a vertical centre line through it, looking at the front of it, and correct setting of Azimuth is so it is at a right angle to the record surface, or have I misunderstood something here?

Or is it that due to the geometry of an arm tracking across the record the angle of the head shell changes very slightly, so it may be spot in the centre of a LP but slightly out at the outer and inner edges? If this is the case then the difference to the Azimuth must be minute, and with a modern cut stylus I would have thought likely to have minimal significance?

:scratch:

---

Michael Fremer would say absolute correct Azimuth is essential as it affects the stylus reading left and right channels. To get it bang on with no guessing it would probably best to use a Fozgometer.

https://www.mcru.co.uk/product/fozgo...h-range-meter/

@ AJSki2fly
you have a pm

Varying pressure can vary crosstalk. Sad but alas true. Also as carts, stylish and suspensions etc are all put together by hand so this adds another issue to azimuth testing, especially by sight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by struth

Varying pressure can vary crosstalk. Sad but alas true. Also as carts, stylish and suspensions etc are all put together by hand so this adds another issue to azimuth testing, especially by sight.

---

Then a Fozgometer would be the only absolute way knowing you have achieved perfect Azimuth.

Certainly will be one tool. There used to be a system called ..'someyhing'.magic..or magik. Need to look it up. It was a pc program and some tools that did everything under the one banner. Might not be going now tho.
The frog would be a good help I think. Azi is usually set close first then is set bang on after the others. Don't forget anti skate as it has an affect on stylus pressure etc both vertical and sideways

analog magik v2 its now called... its eyewateringly expensive tho so probably better with frog unless your a business or rih

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karma1967

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJSki2fly

Sorry Jamie, I still don't get it, Azimuth as I understand it is the angle of the stylus in the groove, that is when you look at the cartridge/stylus from the front, setting the azimuth is getting the stylus perfectly aligned vertically at 90 degrees to the record, that's my understanding anyway. If you adjust VTA/SRA by raising or lowering the rear of the arm, it will change the rake angle of the stylus in the groove, in perfect world you want to get as close to 92 degree SRA as possible.

I found this very informative https://www.analogplanet.com/content...rake-angle-sra

and

https://www.originhifi.com/blog/3556...-Guide?q=35567

---

it changes because your headshell and cartridge are offset to the pivot point,because they are they are moving in an arc when the tonearm goes up and down .as you rightly say correct azimuth is having the sylus tip sitting perctly in the groove,im just saying that altering your sra/vta after this will throw azimuth out.
have a look on the wally tools site,top of the google search results.

---

The very kind Jamie sent me a PM so I could call him so he could explain. Once I got the issue it is obvious what he is saying is true. I will try and explain for all to understand.

Hold your right arm out parallel to the ground with your right palm facing the ground, then bend your elbow to make a right angle to your upper arm keeping you arm level to the ground. Now cant your right hand out at the wrist to the right keeping it parallel to the ground, think of your hand as the head shell, and you arm as the tonearm. Now here is the interesting bit. Keep your hand fixed where it is and raise you elbow vertically, watch your hand as you do so, and you should see your hand rotates with your little finger going up and your thumb going down. If you lower your elbow then the opposite occurs. This demonstrates what happens when you raise and lower a tonearm at the pivot point, it creates a twist at the head shell which will alter the Azimuth, what ever it was set to. This is not immediately obvious when adjusting the arm, but this demonstration clearly highlights the issue.

So as Jamie(karma1967) rightly says if you change the VTA/SRA of your tonearm you need to reset the Azimuth afterwards to ensure that the stylus is correctly set up in the groove.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by struth

analog magik v2 its now called... its eyewateringly expensive tho so probably better with frog unless your a business or rih

---

I think AOS members should buy one as a group buy and pass it round.:lol:

DONT! it will drive you absolutely mental,i borrowed one a few years back and it did my head in,too many variables and constantly changing numbers you have to make sense off. if i was to buy a tool for azimuth id go for a fozgometer for ease of use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karma1967

DONT! it will drive you absolutely mental,i borrowed one a few years back and it did my head in,too many variables and constantly changing numbers you have to make sense off. if i was to buy a tool for azimuth id go for a fozgometer for ease of use.

---

10 folk need to throw £45 into the hat for a Fozgometer. I wonder if Andy Rexton has one?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I think AOS members should buy one as a group buy and pass it round.:lol:

---

i'd rather buy the polished turd;) its a cant win scenario trying for perfection; just use your eyes and ears:D
it usually works too

i think he bought one in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karma1967

i think he bought one in the end.

---

I had a feeling he might have one?

Hello Gentlemen, do you means this old thing ? :D

https://i.ibb.co/nLh5z9M/IMG-0553.jpg

My, this thread moves quickly. Yes the Fozgometer is a piece of cake to use. It works best with detachable head shells, you can still go nuts trying to set channel seperation up on fixed head shell tonearms like my SME V-12, so, I prefer using my SME 3012. You still have to pay close attention to cartridge set up, this device very very quickly enables you to see how much of a balls-up you've made. :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wakefield Turntables

Hello Gentlemen, do you means this old thing ? :D

https://i.ibb.co/nLh5z9M/IMG-0553.jpg

My, this thread moves quickly. Yes the Fozgometer is a piece of cake to use. It works best with detachable head shells, you can still go nuts trying to set channel seperation up on fixed head shell tonearms like my SME V-12, so, I prefer using my SME 3012. You still have to pay close attention to cartridge set up, this device very very quickly enables you to see how much of a balls-up you've made. :lol:

---

I’ve always wanted a shiny box with a needle to play with :lol:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

£450 for essentially a differential amplifier (read common or garden op-amp), a switch, and a meter! I'm sure such a device could be built for under £50.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJSki2fly

The very kind Jamie sent me a PM so I could call him so he could explain. Once I got the issue it is obvious what he is saying is true. I will try and explain for all to understand.

Hold your right arm out parallel to the ground with your right palm facing the ground, then bend your elbow to make a right angle to your upper arm keeping you arm level to the ground. Now cant your right hand out at the wrist to the right keeping it parallel to the ground, think of your hand as the head shell, and you arm as the tonearm. Now here is the interesting bit. Keep your hand fixed where it is and raise you elbow vertically, watch your hand as you do so, and you should see your hand rotates with your little finger going up and your thumb going down. If you lower your elbow then the opposite occurs. This demonstrates what happens when you raise and lower a tonearm at the pivot point, it creates a twist at the head shell which will alter the Azimuth, what ever it was set to. This is not immediately obvious when adjusting the arm, but this demonstration clearly highlights the issue.

So as Jamie(karma1967) rightly says if you change the VTA/SRA of your tonearm you need to reset the Azimuth afterwards to ensure that the stylus is correctly set up in the groove.

---

That description only applies to tonearms where the bearings for motion in the vertical plane are not at right angles to a line passing through the headshell and cantilever. I know of only two makes of tonearm where this applies: SME (excluding the cast magnesium models) and Fidelity Research.

I used to wonder about this, as when the arm/cartridge rides a warp, the cartridge will 'roll' slightly counterclockwise when viewed from the front, so upsetting azimuth. However I did some calculations based on the dimensions and geometry of my SME M12-R arm and the effect on crosstalk, and even with a 5mm warp the crosstalk was insignificant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry

£450 for essentially a differential amplifier (read common or garden op-amp), a switch, and a meter! I'm sure such a device could be built for under £50.

---

Your more than probably correct, however, I have one, I don't have to worry about buggering about making one and I know it works which probably adds a few less grey hairs in my beard. ;)

PS I paid nowhere near £450.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wakefield Turntables

Hello Gentlemen, do you means this old thing ? :D

https://i.ibb.co/nLh5z9M/IMG-0553.jpg

My, this thread moves quickly. Yes the Fozgometer is a piece of cake to use. It works best with detachable head shells, you can still go nuts trying to set channel seperation up on fixed head shell tonearms like my SME V-12, so, I prefer using my SME 3012. You still have to pay close attention to cartridge set up, this device very very quickly enables you to see how much of a balls-up you've made. :lol:

---

That's the Gizmo Andy!:thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by struth

i'd rather buy the polished turd;) its a cant win scenario trying for perfection; just use your eyes and ears:D
it usually works too

---

:lol:

'Fozgometer' is an odd name. Was the device designed by a Mr. Fozgo? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by walpurgis

'Fozgometer' is an odd name. Was the device designed by a Mr. Fozgo? :)

---

Hi, it's me!

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.f32836d2...pid=ImgRaw&r=0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry

That description only applies to tonearms where the bearings for motion in the vertical plane are not at right angles to a line passing through the headshell and cantilever. I know of only two makes of tonearm where this applies: SME (excluding the cast magnesium models) and Fidelity Research.

I used to wonder about this, as when the arm/cartridge rides a warp, the cartridge will 'roll' slightly counterclockwise when viewed from the front, so upsetting azimuth. However I did some calculations based on the dimensions and geometry of my SME M12-R arm and the effect on crosstalk, and even with a 5mm warp the crosstalk was insignificant.

---

By jingo i think your right barry,i've just checked my arm and if i understand correctly what you said above then a line drawn from the centre point of my bearings and at 90 degrees to them ends up running parallel to the headshell,so again if i understand correctly them my cartridge wont tilt to the left or right when moving the arm up or down.

i stand corrected said the man in the orthopedic shoes!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by walpurgis

'Fozgometer' is an odd name. Was the device designed by a Mr. Fozgo? :)

---

was made by a guy called fosgate. his nickname was foz..:eyebrows:

Another way of checking Azimuth which I appreciate is a bit rough and ready is find a test track that has some extreme left and right information in the recording. This will tell you if the cartridge is tracking left and right channels well. I use Andrea Vollenweider album "The Magic Cave". At the beginning when they enter the cave you hear drops echoing in the cave which are to the extreme left and right in your speakers. Its also an amazing track if you want to hear extreme depth in a recording. Quite spooky. It will tell you a lot about your cartridge set up and is very well recorded.