Are Hifi Reviews Flawed?

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Yes! Bias the bloody lot of them into class A though & you might not hear so much of a difference. I'd still prefer the low feedback version though, let it do it's thing with less restrictions...

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Me too, and I agree. However, one can only judge the results of equipment that is being sold in the current marketplace, hence why I quoted examples of two SS amps, from different manufacturers, which to my ears sound poles apart..... Incidentally, one of which I know from experience will have been born from extensive subjective assessment ;)

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I know we are going round in circles, been here before & all that :)

But you must take into account all the new readers to the site :eyebrows: So it all gets repeated once again & i'm only too happy..

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Ditto!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Indeed, Dave. I'm glad you mentioned the Beresford DAC, because along with Anthony's amps, it's another case in point, in terms of the sonic advantages of equipment made by small, specialist manufacturers.

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I’m going to have to disagree regarding the Beresford Dacs I’ve heard.
I haven’t noticed any sonic advantages over the mass produced Dacs in the same price range and if this is what people are going to cite as an example of “bespoke” product superiority then as far as I’m concerned its case not proven; not even close imo.

It would have been far better to have kept this general and not mentioned specific products, particularly products that feature heavily on this forum.

Fair enough, John, you're entitled to your opinion. May I ask what specification of Beresford DAC it was that you heard, and what is was you compared it to, particularly in terms of price?

One must remember what the Beresford sells for..... For me, it pisses all over any 'big name' DAC up to £700 or so, although I also very much like the new Rega DAC.

I don't use a Beresford, but I've heard some examples, and rate them, albeit not as highly as my own heavily modified Sony DAS-R1, but that occupies a different price point entirely!

I'm off now to reply to your earlier post :)

Marco.

I listened to the 7510 I believe it was titled, the first offering from Beresford when I first moved from vinyl to file.
I can’t remember the prices at the time but I also listened to the MF V-Dac, The HRT 11 basic, the Valab NOS Dac basic model and a kit Dac which I cant recal the details off atm.
I liked the sound of the Valab NOS Dac best overall using SPDIF but they weren’t particularly well made and there were then concerns about their reliability (small manufacturer struggling with quality issues)

However, I wanted to use USB believing that in time USB asynchronous data transfer would become the preferred connection method for the better Dacs to come.
The HRT gave the best USB performance even then (pre HRT 11)

I have now heard the Beresford Caiman in its standard form against the HRT 11+ and using USB the HRT is by far the better sounding Dac.

Its not that there is anything wrong with either of the Beresford models I’ve heard but imo their build quality leaves a lot to be desired and their sound is about what one would expect at their price point.

The Gatorized Caiman is a different kettle of fish entirely John (which is what I own), and having listened to most of the Caiman's competitors both below and slightly above its price point, the Caiman + Gator mod was easily the right choice for me. I guess it comes down to personal preference and the MK1 eardrum in the end ;)

We are getting slightly off topic however, my reason for bringing up the Caiman was to support the premise, not to 'Big Up' the product, although I'm perfectly willing to do that in the right thread :lol:

Hi John,

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However, the designer still has to have an element of repeatability to his/her design and if some amplifier designer is prepared to contribute to this thread stating that each amp he/she builds is built in isolation from the last unit built (ie none of the specifications of a previous build are used) and the final configuration isn’t measured and recorded then I’ll have to take their word for it.

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No, that's not what I'm saying happens at all. Of course the final configuration is used as the benchmark for all future designs. What I'm saying is that the best audio designers don't just settle for what measures well - that simply isn't good enough if equipment doesn't also sound superb.

Some will say that the two automatically go hand in hand, but that's not always the case, in my experience. I can think of plenty of kit that is claimed to measure superbly, yet sounds sonically inaccurate and 'lifeless', to my ears, based on how I know how real voices and instruments *should* sound. Basically, it fails at faithfully reproducing the source musical information.

Therefore, in order to determine whether equipment both measures well and sounds superb, BOTH objective and subjective assessment is mandatory during the design process. And as the latter is a variable process, no fixed 'objective design template' can exist in the world of the audio designer who continually strives for excellence.

Indeed, such a rigid and inflexible entity would be an anathema to someone who values the significant benefits of lateral thinking!

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Despite your views regarding Peter Walker and Quad amps they have a very high audiophile reputation so building by measurement and specification does at least seem possible even if you personally don’t find the results pleasing ;)

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Basically, I don't think that they make music sound real, as their sonic signature is way too 'rose-tinted' and coloured for that. And to be honest, they give valve amps a bad name, because their 'pipe & slippers' sonic presentation panders to the popular misconception many people have of how valve amps sound, when the reality is properly designed ones sound nothing like that! :doh:

I've already explained why I think vintage Quad amps have the following that they do :rolleyes:

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I’m not sure the “best” audio components are bespoke built Marco. I wouldn’t argue that there are some very talented people involved in “bespoke” audio but I suggest the really large companies with their enormous resources tend to rule when it comes to quality audio reproduction. Bespoke is cool, you get something individual and possibly unique. If you’re lucky you get value because the small manufacturer doesn’t have corporate overheads etc. This doesn’t necessarily translate into best sounding available and I doubt very much if it applies at all to equipment using newer technologies.

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Well of course there is no universally 'correct' way to build something, and so like mass-produced equipment, bespoke gear isn't always the best.

However, I believe that when bespoke equipment is designed successfully by someone who really knows what they are doing, usually a small, specialist manufacturer, the results are more often than not sonically superior to what is achieved by 'big name' manufacturers when mass-producing their equipment.

Let's examine my system as an example....

Going by what you say, huge companies like National Panasonic and Sony should have the technical wherewithal to ensure that their finished products perform to a very high standard, not achievable by a 'bespoke equipment bodger' - and they do perform to a very high standard.

But that didn't stop people like Mike New and Paul Hynes from transforming and improving the performance of my SL-1210 with their superb products, or Mark Bartlett, of Audiocom International, similarly transforming the performance of my Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1, with his judicious mods, did it? ;)

The point I'm making is that with bespoke products one can either design from scratch on that basis, or judiciously modify equipment which is already good and turn it into something really special that sonically punches way above its 'status', and which offers performance that isn't available on the mainstream marketplace at its particular price point.

Those are the significant advantages of bespoke building and/or judiciously modifying already good equipment.

And don't get me started on new technologies used in equipment somehow automatically guaranteeing superior sonic performance, as I'm afraid, to date that notion hasn't been conclusively proven to my ears... In terms of DAC chips, as far as I'm concerned, properly implemented good old TDA-1541s take some beating!

Marco.

I was going to write a dissertation but I then realised that I couldn't be bothered. The best HiFi equipment is designed by those who demonstrate both exceptional technical ability and a great passion for and understanding of, music. Such designers are more likely provide the customer with equipment that will consistently excel at reproducing music to a high standard. In the main, although not exclusively, these designers tend to own, or are employed by, smaller manufacturers... :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant

Yes! Bias the bloody lot of them into class A though & you might not hear so much of a difference. I'd still prefer the low feedback version though, let it do it's thing with less restrictions :eyebrows:

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That's probably the biggest factor, together with component choice. The fact is, few amps are class A because of the inefficiency and heat output, in fact even some that claim to be class A cannot be throughout their power band because they don't have enough heatsink!

As soon as you get into class B or AB you start to get the variations: how well is crossover distortion handled, how much feedback is applied locally and overall. Naim's topology (used to be quasi-complementary push pull) won't be the same as Meridian's. After that, capacitor choices make a difference. You can see how the design market for ss designs has taken many different paths, and that's before we look at sliding bias, class D, class T etc.

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The best HiFi equipment is designed by those who demonstrate both exceptional technical ability and a great passion for and understanding of, music. Such designers are more likely provide the customer with equipment that will consistently excel at reproducing music to a high standard. In the main, although not exclusively, these designers tend to own, or are employed by, smaller manufacturers...

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+1

Nail > head, dude! :clap: :clap:

And their passion and *genuine* understanding of music is what gives them the ability to design, and in the final analysis, voice equipment by ear, which excels at accurately reproducing the complexities of recorded music, in a way which is not attainable by those worshipping solely at the altar of measurements.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Mark,

I agree to an extent, as the behaviour of valve equipment is rather more 'organic', but there's still plenty of margin for fine-tuning the sonic performance of solid-state gear.

Testament to that fact, is the huge array (to my ears) of sonic signatures created by various SS pre and power amps, currently on the market. Try listening to amps from Naim and then to some from, say, Meridian, and you'll see where I'm coming from ;)

Anthony is well placed to comment on this issue, as he designs both valve and SS gear, as indeed for that matter, is Nick (lurcher), so as experienced audio designers, I shall ask them to offer their thoughts on the discussion :)

Marco.

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My own take is that the difference between Naim and Meridian is easily measurable and in fact the "different" distortion performance of CB and current Naim is there for anyone interested to see (not in terms of quantity, but where the harmonics lie).

One range of once hideously expensive amps (but now almost affordable) I'd love to hear again is the late 90's Krell FPB series, which were so unlike their harsh early 90's forebears and had effortless power and control, even into fairly sensitive speakers and at low volume levels. One range that was worth reviewing IMO..



P.S. The current trend for very low damping factor (less control over the speakers) and porty-bass, low impedance speakers isn't really compatible IMO either, although amps with extremely high damping can sound too lean and "bright" on some well damped (in the bass) speakers. All part of the hobby-fun aspect of music reproduction at home :)