Shure M3D - yet another truly great classic cartridge

Hi Darren,

We'll do it again, mate, in a couple of weeks. I may have some 'interesting' new speakers then, too :eyebrows:

The 'needle talk' is definitely not harming your records, so don't worry about that, but it shouldn't be as prominent as you're describing. I'll analyse more what my M3D does at the weekend when I fit the N21D stylus. It's something I've not paid much attention to as I've never left a record playing with the volume down. It could be louder because, like you say, your kit is in an alcove, but I'll let you know how my cartridge compares with what you've described.

Anti-skating should usually just be set to the same value as VTF, so 2 to 2.5 in your case. Something I do is to 'play' a demo record with no program or grooves cut on one side (there are a few of these for sale on Ebay), and adjust the anti-skate so that the stylus remains as much in the centre of the record as possible, with minimal drifting from side to side. This usually results in anti-skate being spot on but sometimes some further (slight) adjustment by ear is necessary.

The M3D really is quite special *IF* you've got the right 'bits' to make it work. But like I said a few pages back in the thread, it's not a 'normal', plug & play cartridge by any means - there are certain conditions it needs in place to perform optimally. If I were you I'd hold onto your M3D but go back to your 110 until we get together and I have a chance to look at your cartridge and arm properly. I've got some bits and pieces at mine which I'm confident will go a long way to sorting things. Let's not give up yet! :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Something I do is to 'play' a demo record with no program or grooves cut on one side (there are a few of these for sale on Ebay), and adjust the anti-skate so that the stylus remains as much in the centre of the record as possible, with minimal drifting from side to side.

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That's not the correct way to set bias. Using a blank record means that the point of the stylus traces the blank surface which does not exert the same force towards the centre of the record. There needs to be a groove in order to establish correct bias. My recommendation is to use a tracking test (such as on HFN69 or HFN75 test records) and tweak the bias in small amounts until the least mistracking is heard.

You're right, Martin, however as I fine-tune such settings (VTF, anti-skate, etc) finally by ear, anyway; for me it doesn't really matter. The other devices, such as the demo disc I mentioned, are simply to get things in the 'right ballpark' :)

Marco.

ok how do I adjust the anti skate on an alphason? I have a small weight on some fishing wire which hangs down a hole - I am assuming moving the anchor point of the wire forward and backwards along the length of the shart it attaches to changes the angle and thus the amount of weight acting on the arm

only problem is when I move it back and forward it doesnt seem to have any impact

might just wait for expert help - some of this stuff is hard to "get" shame they don;t do a manual that shows how to set up the aplhason - there is one on VE but it doesnt do the detail I need

shan't get rid of it before I see you Marco as its very possible my set up is less than optimal - it sounds ok now as it is so there is potential to be unlocked I suspect.

Rgds
darren

Dave,

I've been doing some listening today and the decision is *very* easy: go for an N21D - it's a complete no-brainer :)

I can't really wax any more lyrical about how superb the M3D sounds when optimised fully, but installing the N21D stylus just takes it beyond a joke at how laughably good this cartridge is considering its vintage - well actually, it's probably because of its vintage that it's so good!

Swapping out the (already excellent) N3D for the N21D and listening to 'So Long' on the album 'You're Mine You' by Sarah Vaughan on Blue Note (Capitol), her voice was rendered even more 'shmaltzy' and seductive than before, with the added sparkle and top-end extension of the N21D ably teasing out each intake of breath and inflection in the process, the band swinging in time behind her, which gave this track the spine-tingling and emotional rendition one feels is faithful to the original performance.

On the N3D, this track was made to sound 'heavier', with seemingly less dynamic range, robbing Vaughan's voice of a little of its natural extension and clarity, and making its lush, lilting intonations slightly more indistinct than with the N21D, such that one wasn't as able to connect with the feeling and mood behind the performance, or the sense of musicianship conveyed by the accompanying band. In short, with the N21D at the helm the music was reproduced more 'completely' and thus more believably, too.

On the practical and hi-fi set-up side, VTF is lowered from 3g to 2.5g with the use of the N21D, so those who baulk at exposing their delicate records to 'brutal' downforces can relax a little more when the stylus hits the groove. In short, anyone contemplating the purchase of an M3D should consider investing in an N21D as a no-brainer, as without doubt it provides a superior tip with which to trace the musical information on one's records, making an already wonderful cartridge that bit more special :cool:

Here's where I got mine:

http://www.turntableneedles.com/Need...163-1374.html#

Go for the genuine Shure tip. It may take a while to arrive from the States, but the wait is more than worth it!

Marco.

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shan't get rid of it before I see you Marco as its very possible my set up is less than optimal - it sounds ok now as it is so there is potential to be unlocked I suspect.

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Hi Darren,

Good stuff - I'm sure we can make things a bit better with the M3D than you're currently getting :)

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only problem is when I move it back and forward it doesnt seem to have any impact

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Although they are said to be better and more accurate, I'm not a fan of the 'thread & weight' type of bias adjustment. I like a dial that I can turn and see the setting as a numerical reading - it just gives you more confidence that things are set correctly. The anti-skate mechanism should be making a difference, though, even if you (seemingly) can't hear its effect, sonically.

Can you balance the arm using the counterweight?

If so, reduce VTF to zero and get the arm so that it's just 'floating' above the record surface and no more without touching it. When you've achieved that, you should notice the arm trying to pull towards either the end or the beginning of the record (unless the bias has been set to zero), and therefore adjusting the bias should bring the arm 'into line', keeping it still and just 'floating' above the record surface, providing that your deck is absolutely level.

If the arm doesn't respond as per above, the anti-skate mechanism is jammed or broken!

Marco.

Dial in bias is usually on a spring affair, although some better arms have a magnetic system.

The thread and weight system should work, unless the arm bearings have gone notchy of stiff. perhaps the weight is binding in the housing?

Marco, a very kind online friend has taken pity on me - watch this space......

Nice one, Dave. What arm are you going to be using, incidentally, with your M3D?

Yep, there's definitely something up with the bias adjustment on the Alphason if things are as Darren describes, which could explain partly why the sound isn't right with his M3D.

Marco.

I can't use the Duall I suspect, as although the mass isn't as low as I thought, it's not rigid enough (although the two mc's I'm currently playing with [MC30 Super and Stilton? OC9] have very well damped bodies that don't upset the arm at all).

I have a good Rega R200 (bias still works) awaiting wiring at Audio Origami (either from arm to amp or go the whole hog and re-do the lot in one piece from socket to phono plugs). This should work well on the Technics I reckon, either with Rega's plastic spacer or with an AO metal spacer I've seen him make for it on his excellent site.

The other arm is an unknown quantity. It's from a Kenwood KD750 and needs a full re-wire. Apart from slightly tight horizontal bearings (as noted in a 'Choice review as well as mine), the arm seemed to perform well and I love the drill-chuck arrangement for arm height.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...enwoodArm3.jpg

Respect to Paul (Pulse Studio) for the arm and photo....... This arm needs a bit more room thasn the SL150 can provide, so I'll put it on the TD125 when I get that one going.

Well, the (now VERY good) internet pal has sent me a "Finetone" N21 stylus and after messing around with screw lengths and adding some lead ballast to the Dual headslide I balanced it up, set tracking weight to 2 grammes, cued up and off I went!

The diamond looks like something out of a 50's autochanger - not the cantilever so much, which is a bit neater than the Shure original, but the shank is very (unfashionably) long on the cantilever and you can see the tiny diamond chip stuck on the end. Looking under a microscope shows the quality of the diamond polish to be very good on this one and rather better than an Empre 2000E IV I was given recently, which was supposed to have an eliptical tip profile (yeah, right...).

You know, it's not a bad cartridge at all, even in my lashup. I played with a B&O SP14 with similar conical tip and 2g tracking and it was as dull as ditchwater. Changing to the calibrated and far superior SP12 eliptical stylus (at 1.2g) added a little sparkle and superb tracking, but still rather muffled. The M3D/21 isn't anything like that at all!!!!

First listening on a little played but hooribly cut Elton John LP (Rock Of The Westies) showed that playing the upper part of the groove works wel with pressings made from worn-out stampers, any other special line tip getting too deep and having too much bass distortion. The N21 stylus clears the bass distortion completely, the mid is reminiscent of the Decca in its immediacy and the top end is a bit unrefined but not in the least bit fierce or spitty, which I found a surprise. The treble is held to side end as well, something else I wasn't expecting.

The other thing which amazed me frankly was the sense of depth and reverb, which other, more recent Shures just don't seem to "do."

To conclude on first listening, I'd say things got worse for Shure when the M44/55 series came along, these latter models sounding both dull and sharp at the same time. Even the V15 II needed a good few years of development into the era III version to get a coherent character. The M3D/N21 is a forgotten classic (Yes, you're right Marco!!!:lol:) amd I look forward to giving it some when I can afford to get one of the arms sorted and mounted on the Tecchie.....

To quote Mr Spock, "Fascinating!!!" :)


P.S. No needle talk on this sample to speak of, but the counterweight is so far out the back I can't get the lid on when I've finished...................................