Tell me about valve equipment

Ash may be a pal, but I don't agree with everything he says... To be fair to him though, he's demo'd me many of the things he's said on the forums and been shown to be basically right, so I have to give him credit for that.. For example, he recommended low capacitance cables as short as possible to connect his AVI source bits to his amps and when I complied with this (50 Ohm and 75 Ohm low loss coax from RS Components) and used decent plugs it was fine. Didn't stop me liking a titanium (or summat) interconnect from Sonic-Link which was silly money then..

As for vinyl, you of all people should know how easy it is to screw up a record player. Only a very few dedicated souls would bother to set everything up as well as possible - many would give up at the first hurdle and I think the B&W 801's Ash used at the time would have made mincemeat of any tracing distortion or surface noise - that little tweeter they had wasn't at all gracious as I remember.....

Quote:

---

For example, he recommended low capacitance cables as short as possible to connect his AVI source bits to his amps and when I complied with this (50 Ohm and 75 Ohm low loss coax from RS Components) and used decent plugs it was fine.

---

He's absolutely right, as far as that's concerned - it's exactly what the Mark Grant cables I use are!

*However*, you may have noticed that I used mains leads, as opposed to signal leads, in my argument. There was a reason for that ;)

Quote:

---

As for vinyl, you of all people should know how easy it is to screw up a record player. Only a very few dedicated souls would bother to set everything up as well as possible - many would give up at the first hurdle

---

How true is that!!! In my opinion only a small percentage of people who own a decent record player know how to set it up *properly*, and crucially, know what arm and cartridge to partner it with, synergistically. Most are just pissing in the wind, including the detractors; the majority of whom haven't heard a properly set-up T/T to form a valid opinion.

Marco.

:goodthread:....very :interesting: More please :popcorn::popcorn:.



Regards D S D L

You do realise, dahling, that keeping you entertained is my No1 priority in life :eyebrows:

Marco.

Quote:

---

I'd only add that the more a valve amp distorts to a "lesser extent," the more it will sound like good solid state. Given proper design and sufficient headroom, the differences are not dramatic. Given neither of the above, charm is preferable to edge every time.

---

There are tricks a decent valve amp can pull off that solid state amps cannot. It is easy to trot out all the clichés about valve amps until you hear one, as I did until I heard one.

Forget, warmth, sweetness etc as any solid state amp can be tailored to have these qualities. Valve amps have a much faster transient response enabling not just better dynamics but also the reproduction of texture and reverberations of notes. Lower perceived distortion at the top end enables much better separation between instruments, more convincing and realistic reproduction of decay of notes and in hi-fi terms, better imaging and 3D soundstaging.

Solid state amps measure better in terms of distortion when you pass a constant test tone through them but seem to distort more with transients. That edginess/grain that you hear with a ss amp is distortion and it's clearly audible. The benign distortions of valves are inaudible or do not detract from the music signal. A decent valve amp also will give you wide bandwidth and a very linear and tine-aligned response across the frequency range.

Basically, they capture the musical info on the recording more faithfully.

Steve,
Very nicely written, though I will disagree :ner:
He says sticking his head in the lions mouth (AOS where solid state is very much the under dog)
To quote your phrase "the proof of the pudding" :eyebrows:

Morning Tony,

I still have what your good lady told me regarding the sound AOS produced (with all-valve amplification) at Scalford hall firmly embedded in memory...

Did she tell you what that was? If not, I'd suggest that you ask her :eyebrows: ;)

AOS is not wedded to valves for reasons of nostalgia or 'romance'. We like them because, as discerning listeners and music lovers, experience tells us that they reproduce music more accurately in a real sense, as Steve has just described. I couldn't give a monkey's what type of technology my amps use.

If solid-state amps gave a better result to my ears (and those of others here), that's what we'd be using - but for most of us so far that's not been the case. I look forward though to being 'educated' differently, chez-toi. Have you come up with any dates yet? :)

Steve,

Superb post, mate. I concur fully, and will add more of my thoughts later. :clap:

Marco.

I agree about the "perceived" high frequency distortions that can plague some ss equipment, but when a good designer can get great results from a "mere" Class B amp with no edge or grain in the sound (AVI's Martin Grindrod for one), then I still have to say that there are no absolutes here.

I'd also say that valves haven't been used for recording purposes in most studios for decades now and most if not all current recordings go through a hi-tech computer of some sort, even the fabulous new classical recordings where extreme care is taken with the recording and production...

The thing is, valve amps done right are an expensive joy to behold and if they *are* done right, they can use their output valves for many hundreds of hours (unlike my Tube Technology Genesis mono's which ate their EL34's very quickly)......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

You do realise, dahling, that keeping you entertained is my No1 priority in life :eyebrows:

Marco.

---

Both you and Steve say it so well...so I am happy to read and be entertained and informed. No point in chipping in if some one else says it as I would say it (different words but message and content the same).


Regards D S D L

Quote:

---

I agree about the "perceived" high frequency distortions that can plague some ss equipment, but when a good designer can get great results from a "mere" Class B amp with no edge or grain in the sound (AVI's Martin Grindrod for one), then I still have to say that there are no absolutes here.

---

Dave, if the anodyne, non-descript, muzak emitting from ADM9s is the benchmark for what you describe above then I'm afraid we're living on two different planets regarding what we consider as a "great results"!

This rather 'emotionless', 'painting by numbers' type of sound, and musical presentation, is exactly why I don't like solid-state gear much, no matter how adept it can be in some areas.

You asked me earlier why I didn't like ss gear; it's not so much because of any 'grain' or 'edge', but rather a flat, uninteresting, what I would call, 'grey blandness', and 'sat on' effect with music (as if the top end has been lopped off as a result of limited dynamic range), in comparison to what I'm used to - which very importantly for me, doesn't ignite much interest, passion, or involvement in the music program. Even the best solid-state gear I've heard exhibits these traits in comparison with the 'open window' onto the music, and sense of involvement, that is provided by a really good valve amp.

The 'in comparison' bit is very important because unless you're aware of the difference you wouldn't know what was missing or what I'm referring to... I used to, for example, think my Naim 52/135s and 200W ECS monoblocks sounded fantastic! One is on a constant learning curve.

My love of valve equipment has got nothing whatsoever to do with 'charm' imbued on the music signal, but rather exposure to greater accuracy in a real sense of how music actually sounds, and not simply an admirable but ultimately cardboard cut-out of such, rendered in my experience by all the solid-state amps I've heard so far. The only solid-state amps I could live with are some of the huge (pure) Class A designs, as to my ears they get the closest to what really good valve amps do. Luxman and Usher do some fantastic stuff in that respect.

However, going back to AVI, experience tells me that their older gear was indeed excellent. The trouble with AVI, is when they took the decision to abandon 'legacy' hi-fi, as Ash affectionately refers to it, and steer the direction of their products towards computers, they lost the core values of what their designs were about. That's why their older stuff sounds great, and the current stuff (in comparison) is crap.

I believe it was something that they thought long and hard about, and was also largely forced upon them by changes in the industry, and the supply stopping from major manufacturers of key components required by them to produce their range of products. I think they made a mistake in targeting what the mass-market wants. The two ranges of equipment (traditional and computer-orientated) should have run side by side in their product portfolio, thereby maximising the range of customers who'd likely be attracted to their products.

A similar thing also happened to Naim, hence why the 'olive' range was abandoned and the new 'Reference' range born, although Naim stayed faithful to their core values before later introducing products designed for the computer audio market.

But will Ashley admit this? No chance! He probably knows it deep down. However, the harsh commercial reality is now that his company is focused solely in one direction he can't afford to pitch his stance on matters any other way!

Quote:

---

The thing is, valve amps done right are an expensive joy to behold and if they *are* done right, they can use their output valves for many hundreds of hours...

---

Indeed. And like I've said many times before, the reason why some people say untrue things about valve amps, aside from commercial bias or otherwise, is because they've never heard a really good one - therefore the benchmark they've used to form their opinion is flawed. As you say, really good valve amps cost a lot of money - that is unless you buy from selected specialist manufacturers who don't put their products onto the marketplace with profit making or 'badge snobbery'/'prestige value' as the primary goal (or you go the D.I.Y route and make your own). Witness the likes of Croft and Tube Distinctions... One day the penny will drop ;)

Marco.