No, I only get the weekend off. If I want a weekday I have to book it as leave and I've got none left between now and January. So would have to be a Saturday or Sunday, if you can do it.
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No, I only get the weekend off. If I want a weekday I have to book it as leave and I've got none left between now and January. So would have to be a Saturday or Sunday, if you can do it.
You are welcome anytime, Oliver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigman80
Sweet, I'll let you know when I have some days and we can pick one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Okies, as I'm probably the most free with my time, it's best if you guys propose the date. November's liable to be fairly busy for me, so I'd prefer to do it this month, and not this weekend, which leaves the following one. Saturday 28th Oct would be best.
But if it has to be November, I'll try and squeeze something in! :cool:
Marco.
Ah, struggling with October but leave it with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
No worries, matey.
Marco.
Krell has got a rep for "slam, bam, thank you, ma'am" .... but I've had 4 Krell amps and only one did the slam thing, mind you that one was awesome and the best I have heard in that aspect of sound! :eek: - a KAV250a power amp.
The others -- a refurbed original KSA50 power amp which if anything was a bit soft and polite, a 300i integrated which was perhaps a bit short of half way there and a 400xi integrated which took half a pace back again.
So whilst some Krells can certainly deliver that aspect of sound I would regard it as far from certain to do the slam thing just cos it's got a Krell badge on.
Real "slam" is actually very rarely had, ime, and it comes down to the amp. If the amp can't do it (and most can't) then it just ain't gonna happen.
Agree, a lot of Krell is actually on the warm side. Big, rich and bold, but not necessarily the quickest, which is what determines slam.
Amp, and also its relationship with the partnering speakers, Jerry [the two work in unison], as you ain't gonna get much slam with ANY amp, if on the end there are simply a pair of diddy-sized 'squawk boxes'! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
"Slam" is largely (but not all) to do with shifting air. And there is no shortage of it my system... :hairmetal::eyebrows:
We'll see whether we can introduce more into Martin's.
Marco.
Well, no, one of those quite rare occasions when I disagree with you, Marco.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
It's about control as well as air volume being shifted.
I've heard many a large driver sound soft and mushy and some quite small drivers sound nicely slammy when suitably amped.
Yes, that's why I said not all. Control, as you say, is the other part :)
So if you want to feel REAL slam, then you need an amp with enough power and control, driving capable loudspeakers, with suitably large cones, shifting plenty of air!
:rave:
I've got high-resolution recordings of drummers playing drum kits, which from the outside of the room, or downstairs, would probably fool most folk into thinking that there was a live drummer in there, such is the sheer weight and visceral intensity of the sound....
Marco.
Daft question, are we taking audio goodies?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Probably not, more playing around with set-up (mainly with speakers), although we may also be trying some different cables and mains leads.
Marco.
The other thing to consider, which may be responsible for the current lack of 'excitement' in Martin's system, is that big powerful solid-state amps, such as Krells, primarily designed for difficult loads, and providing speakers with grip [which he doesn't own or need], usually have a high damping factor, and in the wrong system that can have the effect of sucking the life out of the music - especially if needing serviced.
One thing you could try in the interim to us visiting, Martin, is plumb in the XTZ again. Or if you don't want to disturb the TV system, and still have a power amp from 'he who cannot be named', which I think you said that you had somewhere, use that, and then see if despite it resulting in some sonic compromises, the 'excitement' (and possibly "crunch") comes back...
Please do this when you can and report back :)
Marco.
Ah, that's ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
I might do that. It is only 30 watt amp but the speakers are an easy load.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
BTW we won't be able to play around with mains leads. The Krell comes with its own mains lead and the Sony ES cd player has a captive lead. The Parasound CD doesn't but I already have a fancy lead for that. It makes no difference whatsoever.
Not sure what all the discussion about 'slam' is all about. I've never mentioned there being a problem with slam. The issue is far more subtle, you'll see when you have a listen. Or you'll tell me that there's nothing wrong with it and it is all in my mind ;)
Don't think you've been totally happy since you got the JM Labs speakers Martin. You've been trying your best to make it happen but maybe you need to get back to something with big bass drivers?
Should be fine, as the JM Lab/Focals are fairly efficient and an easy load.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Okay dokes! :)Quote:
BTW we won't be able to play around with mains leads. The Krell comes with its own mains lead and the Sony ES cd player has a captive lead. The Parasound CD doesn't but I already have a fancy lead for that. It makes no difference whatsoever.
Marco.
John, I've never been totally happy even before the latest speakers. I got the JM Labs as I wanted a change from that 'vintage speaker sound.' But on balance I think I prefer the vintage speaker sound. So you are probably right. I might go back to looking for some big JBLs again. They just come up for sale so infrequently.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJo
your problem is:
P90SA passive pre
into
Krell KSA-50S power amplifier Specifications
Input sensitivity: 1.34V RMS. Gain: 26dB. Input impedance: 47k ohms.
Try an active pre
Happy Days
Interestingly, amp damping factor is considered to be irrelevant driving planar magnetic speakers. And planar magnetic headphones. Just thought I'd say. I have an amp with variable DF, and I can't really hear a difference on the Apogees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
What you need is the Jez Arkless buffer between passive pre and power amp. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tubehunter
He made me one, if you recall, and it works fab, but not needed in my current setup.
Jez reckoned the buffer would be in its element in this situation.
Happy to loan it to you to try out, Martin.
You won't - the mass of the diaphragms of planar speakers such as Apogees, Magnaplanars or electrostatics is very low; far lower than the mass of the cone of a conventional driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by User211
Good suggestion, Dunc! Martin could try the buffer thing, if he wants Jerry to loan him it, and/or I could take the Croft with me to perform active preamp duties :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tubehunter
Marco.
Yup... Like I said "in the wrong system", which yours isn't, so it doesn't apply ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by User211
Marco.
I'm not so sure. I have an Apogee bass panel foil hanging around. I'll go weigh it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
The buffer won’t add any gain though, and that Krell has low gain / low input sensitivity. As a comparison my amp has 0.8v input sensitivity and 33db gain, which on paper is a better match for passive or unity gain active (buffer) preamps.
Ah, I had no idea how the buffer thingy Jerry was recommending works, so that's out then. But Dunc's observation is right, so Martin needs to hear the Krell with an active preamp, to hear what he might be missing, and also his existing passive pre with a different power amp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yomanze
Marco.
https://www.ebay.com/p/12-Tall-Roll-...d=132227131178
If the mass of that cone in a cheap sub is typical at 140g, and the Apogee bass panel is equivalent to 3 of them, which it is supposed to be, we have 420g versus 46g i.e. a factor of ten lighter.
More of a difference than I appreciated as the foil/kapton/glue mix doesn't feel light. The bass panel's mass will be beyond that of a mylar only panel, but they just can't do substantial dynamic deep bass in ESL designs.
I don't think Martin has ever said that his system needs more gain :scratch:
If it doesn't then the buffer may well deliver the required goods.
Okay have put in a power amp that is intended to be a perfect match for the pre-amp. Not changed anything else. Going to have a listen to a variety of stuff before I comment further on SQ.
Re the compatibility of the Krell to a passive Duncan may have a point and Justin already advised me some months ago that I would not get the best out of the Krell with a passive. Problem is I am a bit short on active pre amps. I can use the pre amp stage of an old Harmon Kardon receiver or the pre amp stage of an XTZ A100 integrated, although the latter is hooked to the TV at the moment since it has a DAC with optical input but I do have another amp with a DAC in so I could swap that in and free up the XTZ.
But neither the XTZ or the HK have particularly impressive pre-amp stages.
Marco if you could bring your Croft that would be great. I know it is a pain to shlepp it with the power supply box and that. Oliver says he will bring the Slagle autoformer passive that impressed me at NEBO. So a bit of a bake off developing...probably have room for one more if anyone else fancies dropping over for a couple of hours.
Really appreciate all the help and contributions here folks. You're a bunch of stars.
was going to suggest a tvc or sagle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
That's based on a KSA50 and Jerry's 250a sounding dimensionally flat on Apogees. Though Jerry actually preferred my Air Tight over the Cayin valve pre with the 250, he was the odd one out of three. The KSA50 was bollocks with a passive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
I agree get Marco's Croft in and see what it adds to the party. Gear matching can be unpredictable, though.
The story of my life, that. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by User211
Yeah you don't like Tan-noise. Odd one out of, ooohhh... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
No I don't think it does. I barely get halfway to zero attenuation for most stuff, just beyond half for really uncompressed recordings. Using a buffer goes against my purist tendencies though ;) It is under consideration though. Thanks for the offer Jerry.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
QED (The mass of the polymer diaphragm of a Quad ESL is typically 100mg, or lower.)
For what area of panel? Which Quad etc? A comparable area to the panel I posted HAS to be more than 0.1g.
Cool, I'll be interested to know what you think, although I don't think what I've suggested will tackle the issue as effectively as what Duncan (and Justin) has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
No worries. Feel the love of the AoS community! :grouphug:Quote:
Really appreciate all the help and contributions here folks. You're a bunch of stars.
Marco.
But the buffer is exactly the circuitry that an active pre provides that makes the difference from a passive! :doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
You purists. :mental:
:lolsign:
Well, aside from anything else, it involves another set of cables! :ner:
Marco.
I dunno about that - I've come across many folks who share my aversion to the horrid things. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by User211
Well the new ones are a bit shit with the exception of Kingdom Royal (only when driven right) and even some of the Prestige ones can sound OK sometimes when they aren't suffering from a tendency to overdo bass in an uncontrolled way.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
Looks like I need to come over with my KIN and show you all how it's done :ner: :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
............... and get the TT connected again to show what you are missing ;)
I think you should. But what happens if the Croft walks all over the KIN? Runs the risk of an ahem KINshite verdict:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Firebottle
Is that a risk you can afford to take?;):):lol::eyebrows:
No it isn't, because it doesn't amplify the signal any whereas a pre-amplifier does. I think that buffer you have is designed to provide a better impedance match.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
Lol - you're on form today!!Quote:
Originally Posted by User211
However, I don't want to deflect attention from the main event (trying to fix the issue in Martin's system), with a 'willy-waving' sideshow between active valve preamps.
Therefore, unless Martin (as it's his gaff) particularly wants to hear the Croft in his system, in which case I'll duly oblige [no problem in shlepping it down], then if Alan wants to bring along the KIN, we can simply use that for active duties, and be done with it :)
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
The ONLY reason a passive preamp would possibly compromise your Krell is the sensitivity issue if used with old sources with say 500mV output not going loud enough - the KSA 50S needs 1.3V for full output. NOT AN ISSUE WITH CD sources or most other digital ones I believe - some phono stages have good gain as well ;) Even with my old tuners, I never ran out of volume travel, but head-bangers might possibly and it's on these low-output sources a line buffer would be needed possibly, but not particularly a digital source with a 2V maximum output, which would give some headroom.
One reason I sold the Krell to you (the main ones were financial and the potential overheating issue where I needed to site it) is the trap you're falling into here due to what I feel may be incorrect advice. the Krell carries a certain cachet and reverence about it, meaning a cheaper 'twin-pot-in-a-box' isn't going to be judged 'good enough' for the almighty Krell power amp, which because of its ability to drive itself up the side of a bloody house if needs be (oh alright, a 2 ohm loading) and the main reason for its size and considerable cost when new (even your baby one was four grand at least) - large power supply and beefed-up casework to accommodate it, means it can be used with all sorts of over complex expensive speakers and the current output helped with low impedance US-made panels too. To keep with the 'image,' a matching active preamp would be regarded as mandatory by these people to get the 'best' out of it, despite most older Krell or usual ARC preamps having a 'sound' to them (the ones I heard do, although it doesn't necessarily make them 'worse' as such).
Then of course 'ordinary cables' wouldn't be good enough, so a few more grand on these is deemed necessary to bring the best out from this amp as ordinary cables aren't expensive enough or good enough looking... - See where I'm going here?
Apologies for diving in too soon possibly, but the Krell amp is an AMP, not bloody audio royalty, and it's main function was to drive complex speaker loads of the time that many other amps would limit themselves with and to provide heaps of current into low impedance loads. Your speakers needed this ability far more than mine, and I have no money to get on the cachet bandwagon of a 'matching' preamp, whatever expensive brand that should be, let alone foo cables of the right price tag....
The only way your *particular* power amp really *could* be improved - and this following the Stereophile review - is by possibly using a fully balanced preamp (I'm thinking the Levinson ML28 as Barry here uses as a start, as I believe it's circuit is fully balanced from input to output, needing very careful component matching I remember and you can get the odd one for under a grand now I think). I follow a path that tells me that 'balanced' isn't really needed for domestic setups requiring shorter interconnect runs, but if the Krell is positioned in between the speakers and fed by several metres of interconnect, then *in this particular instance* it might give a better sound than a 'pot-in-a-box,' which is potentially better than anything else otherwise - you do know that transformer 'preamps' have hundreds of feet of wiring in and across the signal path and they 'will' add distortion of sorts, even if it's benign... A precision attenuator such as you have is but one high quality resistor ONLY in the signal path, the others just 'shunting away' not-needed voltage (I'm hoping that's correct enough to save censure from Rothwell and others).
If I've got it all wrong then I apologies. Krell is one of those brands build like an outhouse and designed for a particular market, as was Mark Levinson of old and other juggernaut amps on the domestic market. This particular market is a kind of 'club' which I used to hang on the fringes of and the chap who passed it to me originally was very much of this band of loyal followers, raving about the 'cheap' mains cable he'd just sold at a mere £760! (his was from further up the range as were his 'Transparent Audio Reference' signal leads). Last I heard, he had a D'Agostino amp and twenty grand ML panels used with his freshly restored once £20k Krell CD/Digital preamp. The KSA 50S was a temporary standby amp while his FPB 400 was being serviced...
So are you disputing the figures that Duncan posted earlier then Dave, in terms of the low input sensitivity of the Krell? Also, to your knowledge, has the Krell ever been serviced/re-capped? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Marco.