Come on, Steve, get your finger out! ;)
I'm sure it would provide some light amusement...
I'd do it but I'm not a member of the Naim forum.
Marco.
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Come on, Steve, get your finger out! ;)
I'm sure it would provide some light amusement...
I'd do it but I'm not a member of the Naim forum.
Marco.
And so it continues - the point of the arrow is always followed by the rest of it!
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=48649
Chaps
This was the very first line of this thread opened by Richard.
"We are all trapped into marketing think. It is the plague of this industry"
My view is that small hifi companies are totally useless are marketing their products. In fact they come across as bumbling idiots.
They just seem to cause arguments and alienate every one including potential custumers from the moment they open thier mouths. The gambit always seems to be " I am right, my product is unbeatable and everything else is crap and if you don't buy my stuff in the way that I want, you are a fool."
These guys should stick to their soldering irons and pay for a professional company to market their goods. We can all name a string of small companies where the proprietor just lets the product down by over projecting his own image and that is nearly always fatal.
Fora such as this are a golden opportunity for a small company to promote their goods and as sure as eggs, they all completely blow it time after time.
Very sad.
Regards
Mick
Very well said Mick, especially this bit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick Parry
Yes, Mick, good point, and please don't be such a stranger in future :)
We want to see plenty more of your contributions on AOS :smoking:
Regards,
Marco.
I do hope this is not addressed at me as it is completely wrong if so. Find me a post where I have marketed NVA here or at any forum, it is not the point of me posting or this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick Parry
The general line I dissagree with as well as if you are swayed by marketing speak from the hired proffessionals you are the very problem that I am railing against. The only marketing that is required is to listen and let the product sell itself (or not as the case may be) anything else is bullshite. None of you are (or should be) so stupid as to be swayed by marketing speak, be it advertising copy, reveiwer demi god meglamania or the sort of performance that Ash put up here a month or so ago.
I want us to go back to the techy who designed and built it talking to the enthusiast / music lover potential user about how one creates the other. That is how it was originally with Williamson et al when home audio / hi-fi started, and that is real Hi-End Hi-Fi marketing IMO.
Richard
Just re read your last posting and count up the number of times the word "I" appears in it. I think this and I think that and the general impression is that you are not pushing an opinion but more pushing a dictat and we have all got to agree with you or accept the fact we are fools.
These fora are a fairly broad church and we range from 100% Naim systems to valve enthusiasts to vinyle fanatics and to the bodger. They all have valid opinions, usually based on experience and will cheerfully debate until the cows come home.
What they will not accept is some proprietor of a small company repeating the same dictitorial stuff time and time again.
Far better to say ......... this is my product, I believe in it, I think it is good and competitive and I hope you give it a try. That will get results. Causing arguments and getting banned is maddness for a proprietor of a small hifi company and it seems to be a trade mark of a large proportion of your colleagues and competitors.
Learn some presentation skills or pay someone else to do it for you.
Your choice and your livelyhood.
Regards
Mick
Complete nonsense and you haven't read the thread or understood the concept - please do before you spout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick Parry
I am not here to market in ANY way, I am not here for your business or anyone elses business - do you now understand. In fact if it will convince you then I will say here I do not want your business or from anyone else here, I have enough business thank you! It is not my choice or my decision obviously though it is yours and theirs. This process here of my posting is about community and as a member of this industry for over 30 years I have something to contribute to this community. THIS HAS *NOTHING* TO DO WITH ME AS NVA OR NVA OR NVA PRODUCTS - did you hear it this time. I am here as an individual, to the point that I refused to be called trade and prefered to be called a muppet!
The reason I post has nothing to do with me, it has to do with the industry and the changes it is going through and I wish to trumpet those changes. Those changes are now being vocalised in the pinkfish thread I have highlighted, so what is different that I have highlighted them or been speaking about them. The whole marketing thing is the root cause of the mess this industry has got it self in. *I* state again, it is time the industry went back to its roots and understood music and its relation to design, not fornicating bullshit marketing.
*I* have an opinion, and as an individual *I* wish to express it. Yet as exampled on pinkfish and wigwam most forums just wish to jump on the bullshit marketing bandwagon, and just *expect* industry members to bullshit so wish to charge them £50 a time for doing it, so just perpetrating the problem. Well sorry like it or not you have someone different, with a different purpose. So how about just forgetting I am nva and addressing the points made with intelligent conversation for the sake and benefit of community, instead of starting your usual conflict which you seem addicted to.
Conflict? Where?
Actually, I don't care. This forum has become a very very positive place since there has been no contribution to this thread, not that it wasn't before, but this type of conversation always seems to bring a place down, therefore I'm locking it for good.
http://rms-developer.com/Padlock.jpg
I just want to add and say to Mick and Richard that I don't think you done anything 'wrong' as such, but Rob was quite right to lock the thread because we can't have threads used purely for tit-for-tat digs or to express 'issues' people have against each other. When discussions go beyond the hi-fi subject and things get personal threads will always be locked - it's as simple as that.
Try to play the ball and not the man in future! :)
Marco.
hi mick,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick Parry
you have a point, and i for one have quite extensive experience of working with people you describe. richards rant on the other hand, in my opinion also has its merits... :)
Richard's thread is reopened for him to rant away. No personal insults though please Richard. :)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
That'll last for about ten words! He's a freakin' liability!
Well seeing as I got gagged for trying to be a fair voice on the "wallah" thread,and being told via PM that the reason the thread was closed all of a sudden (after I had asked via PM) was because the thread "was going nowhere" in spite of the fact that a post I had made previously was answered by Steve Toy(the main man on this site AFAIK) to which I replied via PM to the effect that how could the thread be going nowhere when the main man is replying to my posts?? To which I've still not received an answer (via PM) but I suppose there was a sort of back-handed answer in the last couple of public posts on the thread in question.All I was trying to do was be a fair and impartial voice,but as far as I can see from what has transpired,isthat this is not allowed on this site unless it fits in with the admin team's designs.I therefore have come to the conclusion that I will no longer visit or contribute to this site.I believe in free speech and freedom for all human beings,so will not tolerate the totalitarianism as practised by the persons running this place.I've no idea why I'm typing this,as I guess that the admin team will delete it anyway,but at least I got it off my chest.I wish all the members here all the very best.
Ali.
Hi Ali,
Get a grip, mate. No-one is being gagged. You have a PM :)
Btw, there is no "main man" here. Steve, Rob and I all have equal authority.
Marco.
:lol: LOL! "Totalitarianism". That's a slightly strong word to describe a forum's management isn't it? Ali, if you feel you have to leave due to our 'regime' then that's your decision mate. I'm sorry you feel that way though, especially as I can't see where, how or by whom you have been "gagged".
But then what do I know, I'm not the "main man" obviously? :)
Ali,
Before you bugger off, I don't suppose I can have my digi cable back could I, please?
:(
Ali. Don't bugger off. The Art of Sound is about valves and DIY as much as anything else. We'll work through this shite but it isn't easy.
And no, there is no main man. The three admin members have equal say and a 2/3rds majority carries.
OK so lets get back on topic!
They say the electorate of this country get the politicians they deserve. Well could it be equally said that you Hi-Fi buffs get the industry you deserve.
Do you all secretly like the bullshite that dominates this industry, are you all so in deference to Hi-Fi reviewers and designers that you don't see them for the w* they are. Celebrities in an industry as small and as strange as ours, quite bizzarre.
So what happens, you get a buff who makes some changes or makes some good choices in Hi-Fi or just bluffs his way to people asking his opinion, next step he is a reviewer, next step he thinks he is god! Where as the ones that make changes get to be known as tweakers, so people ask then to make things and before they know it they design product and then they are a *designer* and then large numbers of you treat them like they are gods. In some cases they only have to pretend to be designers like Anthony M and Ivor T.
Audio electronics is not rocket science it is *bloody simple* and the simpler the better. The basics are common sense and a decent set of ears.
The real guys are never happier than with a soldering iron in hand and solder blobs on the jersey. Hey one recently has given up being a maker and gone back to being a tweaker, good old Crofty, I bet he is happier with it as well.
Tweakers (that also have made their own kit from scratch) are the good guys (Glen Croft and Anthony Matthews included.) I know because my valve amp has improved enormously since it was extensively tweaked, or 'raped' as one chap put it on another forum.
With a host of rare NOS valves and still-manufactured output valves that are the ones that wear out, I'm happy indeed.
Bespoke is the way to go - it cuts out all the marketing and distributor costs to produce something that would probably cost over £3,000 were it available as an off-the-peg commercial item.
Nope, I don't think that is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
I only have extensive experience of the Wigwam, but that forum has simply accepted the fact that some dealers will flood their postings with marketting BS, (as we have seen here by our good ex-friend Ashley) and has found a way to limit and contain this by having a separate dealer section where they can BS to their hearts' delight and cracking down quite hard where this setup is abused.
I think that is a good & pragmatic system for addressing what is an inevitably ongoing problem.
richard,Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
get your facts right, i have never pretended to be anything more than whats highlighted above, i have a good following in what i have acheived over the years, i have made many pieces of equipment from scratch with no one elses input, and combined my efforts with other well known people in the industry, and when i say from scratch, i mean from scratch, casework, boards, everything, if you want to have a go at people like me,for what ever your reasoning, there are other ways of doing it. i specialise in one paticular part of the audio re-play chain, valves, from studio equipment, to musical instrument amplification, and no, i didnt pick valve technology because as you seem to think its easier, i did it because that was the technology i was mostly into. i have a long history of electronics, my dad was a service engineer from the 1950's on, and repaired, serviced everything from televisions, :)to toasters!
anthony...
Yep spot on, Anthony. And considering I was in the company of Glenn Croft yesterday afternoon, some of which was spent discussing his new amplifier range that is soon to be launched, I can categorically confirm that "good old Crofty" has not given up being a maker, either. Don't believe everything you read in magazines ;)
Marco.
Would I ever be likely to put you in the company of Ivor T? are you the only person with the name Anthony M? - is your surname Michaelson?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyTD
richard,Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
my sincere apologies mate,
i must admit, it did make me think, if this was meant for me, the man has realy, realy lost the plot this time. :lol:
Would this 'pretend to be' designer Anthony Michaelson be in any way related to the Anthony Michaelson you were praising in the 'Bottle Wallahs' thread?
".....It still has its place and I am very pleased it re-emerged from the wilderness, who in the UK do we thank for this do you remember were you around? Well it was Anthony Michaelson with TVR in the mid 70's, OK a majority went spectacularly up in flames but they were a welcome alternative to the burgeoning Linn / Naim religious pomposity...."
The amps were actually called TVA. (the company was Michaelson & Austin iirc)
Manufacturers and industry members are normal human beings as well. For example I just happen to be a manufacturer but as I have proved on this list I have no interest in promoting my product on forums. Before this list existed I joined, in turn, Zerogain, Wigwam and Pink Fish. As here I wished to discuss the industry and get peoples opinions and *voice* the changes. At Wigwam NO mention of NVA yet I was sent a £50 invoice which I refused to pay, so now I have not just me banned and not mentioned but my product banned to be mentioned as well which wasn't being talked about and had nothing to do with it. Threads are pulled and posts are binned and member are threatened with banning if they talk about NVA. I am even accused of paying WW members to mention my products, that is how daft and paranoid the guy is. Is that fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
Pink fish held off sending me an invoice until someone asked me a question about NVA and I replied factually and asked the person to PM me. I immediately received an invoice for £50 which I refused to pay publically which created a thread on its own :doh: There in theory I am banned to be talked about but I have never seen threads pulled because of it as at Wigwam. Zerogain has no policy of charging industry so I thought I was safe but it seems the owner of PF virtually owns ZG as well so it was contrived to ban me from that as well. OK so I am a controversial character who likes to voice and discuss controversial subjects, but surely that is what forums are for, not just platitudes and recycling all the industry BS.
Jerry if you want the industry not to cash in on forum exposure then it is not a good idea to try and cash in on it yourself, = hypocrisy. And £50 stops no-one it just makes them pay for it.
Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. But not this time! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyTD
RichardQuote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Are you not part of the industry too.
Andy
Did I say he was a designer in that thread, he owned the company. Did he design TVA - do you know the answer - or are you hunting again?Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
Yup, so do you deserve me :) but in this guise I am me. If I was here as NVA I would be different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
OK - for some reason(s) that I don't fully understand both you and Stan Beresford have managed to seriously piss off the Wigwam admin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Nonetheless, I think the Wigwam's policy of a specific Dealer Section is a good one, as it confines (most of) the BS they are prone to spout to a specifically Non-BS-Free area.
I also note with approval a recent change to the Wigwam's Ts&Cs for all members to fess-up if they are associated with the Trade.
TBH - I think some of the esteemed Mr Popeck's posts should be in such a section here. At what point does a dealer's genuine enthusiasm for a product/manufacturer become marketting hype?
I didn't say he was a designer either. I was just amused by your seemingly inconsistent attitude towards him. I couldn't work out whether you approved of his efforts or not :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Don't be silly Jerry, do you really want to become a hunter. You were one of those at WW who was accused of supporting me for favour and money, did you like it, did you get cross about it, does that make you paranoid. I think not.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
Just because you feel I rant too far and you no longer use my product doesn't mean there cannot be mutual respect and understanding of POV.
This is thread drift, we are getting back to forums. Current rant is about industry demigods and who causes them and do you lot make them. Do you largely cause your own problems, do you get the industry you deserve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
Does it matter why should you worry, it is only a rant. Or do you wish to activate conflict again like the last time. Does something make you feel threatened again? Look at the wording, confrontational! you could just give facts and correct my keyboard slip and lack of time, it is all in attitude.
I am pleased you are amused though so let us keep it that way it is largely the point of this thread, then you don't have to activate the non public part of your personality. Stick to being the nice guy called Puresound.
understood!!!:lol::eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
Tight line to walk, but the guy has years of industry experience and has experienced a lot of the sh1t that I did, so I respect and listen to his views. A little slip of the trousers showing the marketing crease :lol: is allowable for me in this case. After all it is not another Ash!Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
I see the rant has now been transferred from this "pretty insignificant forum" to the "king of fori" sic. lucky pfm'ers. However, my guess is that it'll all end in tears!
I'm intrigued though Richard. Just who are these marketing men masquerading as designers who have captured the aspirations of audiophiles everywhere and who are, as we speak, selling them bucket loads of stuff they shouldn't be buying. Do name names. I can't think of anyone doing that well at the moment. Ivor T hasn't been less influential for perhaps 30 years and Anthony M isn't really taken seriously after releasing his 500W booster amps. You might have made a case for Ken Ishiwata 10 years ago but probably not now. He actually does do some design as well I gather. So please tell me which confidence trickster it is that has the hifi buying public in their thrall these days.
With regard to reviewers, the only magazine with any serious circulation has anonymous reviewers so hardly the cult of celebrity there. Hifi World does next best but I'm not sure who at that magazine could be said to have an over inflated sense of self worth or indeed a following of disciples hanging onto their every word. Choice & News seem to be lacking direction and Plus, while being thoroughly written and nice to look at has a very small circulation and correspondingly little influence. I suppose it might be said that online mags like 6 moons hold more sway nowadays.
What tickles me somewhat is that your target audience (not market), the soldering iron wielding DIY enthusiasts of yore, have largely abandoned SS technology for what they perceive as the more rewarding performance of valves. Perhaps they've realised that the promise of sand amps; lots of Watts, little heat, little bulk and apparently low distortion was indeed a chimera dreamt up by the bean counters you so despise back in the 1950's and 60's and that while it may do for Joe Bloggs, it can't/won't ever deliver the musical involvement these guys seek. Ah, the irony of it! But that's where the excitement, the innovation and the enthusiasm is now. The low power/high efficiency people are having the fun! Good thing imho.
I fear a reply will NOT be forthcoming!
;)
well said that man!Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
although i thought we werent suposed to post any further on this mere mortal!!!
:)
Hi Guy,
Good reply, but unfortunately Richard has been banned (you probably hadn't noticed - see the 'Why is it that?' thread in Abstract Chat) so, as Mike says, he won't be in a position to respond.
Has Tony on PFM lifted Richard's ban now? That is most interesting. I wish Tony all the luck in the world in trying to manage him and I hope that he doesn't live to regret his decision.
Oh, regarding Richard's "insignificant forum" remark, I'm not sure how much more 'significant' we can be in the five months or so we've been going. The activity and interest being created on and by AOS is quite incredible considering our 'youth' in comparison to well established forums such as PFM, which have been running for about six years in order to become "the king of fori"! We'll see just how 'significant' AOS is in six years time if I haven't keeled over from the stress ;)
Marco.
Precisely; although I don't think Guy was aware Richard has been banned. Shall we lock this thread now as I feel it is long past its sell-by date or does anyone else have something worthwhile to add?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyTD
Marco.
Apologies. I hadn't seen that Richard was banned.
It's probably best locked otherwise it might end up a rant ABOUT Richard, enough is enough surely?
:scratch:
Guy, no worries :)
Ok, locked it is. Mike, can you please do the honours? I need to nip out somewhere for a bit.
Cheers,
Marco.
Done.