Has anyone tried any of the DNM interconnects, with the cheapest plastic bodied phono plugs available I remember? Surely, if these plugs were so bad, they'd have ruined the fine performance the DNM gear could achieve?
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Has anyone tried any of the DNM interconnects, with the cheapest plastic bodied phono plugs available I remember? Surely, if these plugs were so bad, they'd have ruined the fine performance the DNM gear could achieve?
Well, the DNM cables are an entirely unshielded design in the first place.
I really rather liked the DNM pre-amps I came across - but always felt the cables were bloody awful :).
Hi Mark,
That seems to make sense, and if done properly, I can't see why it shouldn't work, and also be sonically beneficial.Quote:
You know, if one really wanted the connector to be shielded, a copper tube that is electrically connected to the cable shield, or by flying lead to the pre-amp earth, would be very much more effective. I seem to recal reading about someone trying precisely this - can't remember where now - I seem to remember they were keen on the results though.
Indeed, and for very good reason. As such, the 0110 (ag or cu), plastic internal construction variety, perform to a higher and easily discernible sonic standard, than the 0102 (ag or cu), metal internal construction variety. I suspect that this is due primarily to the influence and/or absence of eddy currents.Quote:
Looking at the WBT connectors, they have moved away from using metal in their plugs and the majority of the internal structure is now plastic on their premium designs.
As such, I now find that any plugs which have a high amount of metal in their overall construction sound notably inferior.
However, what's most interesting to me is why, to my ears, either the polymer or aluminium versions of the silver Eichmanns sound significantly superior to the WBT 0110ag, used on the same Mark Grant (G2000HD) interconnect cables - honestly the difference isn't subtle! :eek:
The WBTs and (aluminium) Eichmanns share the same shell material and absence of any conductive metals, yet sonically, perform rather differently. There must be something fairly significant going on with the way that the Eichmanns are wired/constructed, which is causing such a marked improvement in performance...
Any ideas as to what's going on? :)
I should add that this appears only to be the case in analogue applications. In digital ones (such as on digital coaxial cables), the opposite is true, where the WBT 0110ags, to my ears, are superior.
Marco.
It could be down to the method of cable to connector fixing or connector construction, rather than the amount of metal. John Coleman an old time forum visitor until he fell ill a while back did some extensive tests with connectors and fixing methods that were quite a surprise to me. I don't think he was however interested in publishing it online.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Do you get eddy currents in non magnetic metals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Just wondered as I have some aluminium bodied "Bullets" but the body is not electrically connected in any way.
Not that I'm aware of, dude. Try the Eichamnns, you may prefer them to WBTs :)Quote:
Do you get eddy currents in non magnetic metals?
Marco.
Hi Stan,
No doubt that's also a factor, however I've experimented enough now in this area to satisfy myself that there is definitely also something in the metal thing.Quote:
It could be down to the method of cable to connector fixing or connector construction, rather than the amount of metal.
I don't remember him. What forums did he post on and did he use his own name or something else?Quote:
John Coleman an old time forum visitor until he fell ill a while back did some extensive tests with connectors and fixing methods that were quite a surprise to me. I don't think he was however interested in publishing it online.
It would've been interesting to have read what he wrote on the subject :)
Marco.
His username was John Thourbalaux or something like that. He used to make those vinyl weights for for forum members on wigwam etc.
He sent me a report of his findings but I doubt I still have it. I changed PC since then. But I'll have a look.
Ah, I know exactly who you mean now. I just didn't recognise him as John Coleman. Thrunobulaxx - yup! Profile here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/member.php?u=86
Really nice guy, but unforunately he had a heap of personal problems... :(
Marco.
Yes, eddy currents can be induced in non-magnetic metals IE: aluminium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Ah OK, ta!Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG
Do you reckon the teenie tiny currents in a tonearm cable could induce anything significant?
Not really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Eddy currents can certainly be generated in aluminium and this is primarily the rational given by those manufacturers who have gone over to plastic (acrylic) cases for their electronics (such as DNM). Whether eddy currents can be generated by the typical music signal passing along an interconnect is another matter.
Both WBT and Eichmann state the alloy they use (silver or copper alloy), but neither state the specific mix of metals in the alloy and possibly this makes a difference. Also, although Eichmann's solution to attaching the ground to the socket is much simpler than the collet of WBT, it does actually make a tighter connection and over a smaller contact area - perhaps that makes a difference.
I've not tried either yet. I was just looking at the cable on my PU7 and thought "Hmmm.. those phono plugs look a bit cack" and was wondering which to try!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Hi Mark,
I definitely think there's something in it. I've heard a similar effect, although to a greater extent (in that case relating to ferrous vs. non-ferrous metals), with otherwise identical (Mana) equipment supports, the only difference being that one was made from magnetic metals (angle iron), and the other non-magnetic stainless steel.Quote:
Eddy currents can certainly be generated in aluminium and this is primarily the rational given by those manufacturers who have gone over to plastic (acrylic) cases for their electronics (such as DNM). Whether eddy currents can be generated by the typical music signal passing along an interconnect is another matter.
'Night & day' just about described the difference between both, sonically!!
Perhaps that's one of the reasons why the polymer-bodied Eichmanns, to my ears, sound better than the aluminium-bodied WBTs, even those where the internal construction is plastic? The outer shell is still alluminium, and therefore subject to eddy currents. But then, the aluminium-bodied Eichmanns also sound better, to my ears, than ANY of the WBTs....
I think the last bit is likely to be the most influential.Quote:
Both WBT and Eichmann state the alloy they use (silver or copper alloy), but neither state the specific mix of metals in the alloy and possibly this makes a difference. Also, although Eichmann's solution to attaching the ground to the socket is much simpler than the collet of WBT, it does actually make a tighter connection and over a smaller contact area - perhaps that makes a difference.
Marco.
You are completely wrong :DQuote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
So what's new :scratch::ner:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratmangler
It's a hard life being a daftee (I know) :D
Marco.
Interesting that there has been no mention of the solder anywhere? I think it must play some part towards the sonic signature of any connector?
Some customers must think so as I had a chap who insisted I use Oyaide solder when he ordered some cables last week.
Good point. Probably!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mains Cables R Us
Whilst solder is important for bonding it should not be the main surface to surface contact medium. That's why I prefer surface mount components on a PCB instead of legged components that are separated from the copper on a PCB by a solder joint.
Surface mount are still essentially connected by a bridge of solder, more so in some cases.
You are fixing them wrong then.
Try doing that when you're hard-wiring a valve amp! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
Marco.
Have you ever heard of wire wrapping? Far better than soldering when talking about building a valve amp.
Indeed - the effect of all the 'little things' adds up...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mains Cables R Us
The solder Mark Grant uses on all my interconnects is one specially chosen by Anthony TD (something he's been using for years). Geeky as I am, I've actually listened to otherwise identical G2000HDs, assembled with and without said solder, and I could clearly hear the difference! :eek:
Marco.
Nope, that's a new one on me, Stan. In what way is it better? Have you tried it?Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
Marco.
And that would be? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
No idea, mate. Best speak to Mark (or Anthony). I do know, though, that it's not solid-silver, but it has some silver in it :)
Marco.
No shit! :rfl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Hehehe.... Well, I never use the stuff myself. I have 'people' for that! :D
Marco.
Wire-wrapping is where you have square-type connecting posts and a wire is wrapped around them. The square edges bite into the surface of the connecting wire forming an air-tight seal without the use of solder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
When alumminium is used in a cable it acts as an electrostatic shield. When you have a copper co-axial shield it acts as an RFI shield. Some cables have one or the other, or sometimes both.
There is where I started off in electronics many decades ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Interesting - I'll quiz Anthony about it. Thanks for the info, too, Stephen :)
Marco.
Marco, the last time I saw wire-wrapping being used was in the late '70s. It's not a technique that's used now, as far as I know.
I like your avatar but you need to be looking a flow dynamics, not silver plating :lol: (I had to learn all that crap to understand arterial pathology, fun for an afternoon.............not!). This topic is great, but why dont we try and inject some science into it?? Nobody has talked about cable geometry (as an example) or used any examples as to how it can affect a cables sonics. It may just help us to understand some of the things we are discussing??
Thanks, Andrew. The avatar developed out of André's "Captain Nemo" comment in response to a posting by Marco. Really had me amused. Still does.
All done on me old Nokia 5800!
Quality... I must confess to only having read it now! :lol:
Marco.
When Townsend Audio first got into cables the geometry they chose was balanced 300 ohm with foam between the two conductors.Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
Just came to mind when I went to put the kettle on.
Well, after all that solder talk (I use Shark 5.5% silver solder, by the way), let's get back to Marco's post about the 223.5 ConnectLitz. I agree with everything he has said, the 223.5 grounded interconnects between my SUT and phono preamp sound similarly wide open and exactly in keeping with the wonderful 423.5 tonearm cable. They bring light to the proceedings, pulling detail from the mix and presenting it in a wide and deep soundstage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I hopefully have a 223.5 balanced XLR version of the ConnectLitz arrived and waiting for me at work. That will complete the phono sequence, connecting my Whest phono stage to the Pass preamp. More as soon as I've got them going.
Martin, can I take it you don't see yourself escaping from ConnectLitz in the foreseeable future?
Ho-Ho! It's the way a tell 'em! It's the way a tell 'em!
:rfl:
I assume this is because I can't get the window open far enough
Emailed Yannis and ordered a 223.5 Litz. Arrived Saturday.
Connected between Rega Isis and Naim 82 comparing to a TQ
Phono-Phono leads both using a Phono Din Adaptor
Couple of favourite tracks to try
Jeff Beck - Roy's Toy
Mavis Staples - Eyes on the prize
I thought there was more detail, more background information, not usually heard, better treble, especially on cymbals, a wider sound stage.
Broadly a small improvement
Sally preferred the TQ which I found surprising as her hearing is usually better than mine
So why only a small improvement ?
1. Brand spanking new lead not burned in. From memory the TQ was better than I'd heard it before so that is well burned in
2. Is the 82 limiting the signal ?..............
System synergy, perhaps, Mike?
No matter how much any of us here raves about any particular cable, there is no guarantee that anyone else will obtain the same results, in a totally different system. Quite simply, cables produced by ANY manufacturer can NEVER be a universal panacea.
All one can do is buy cables, report what one hears for the benefit of other forum members, and hope that if they also go for them, that what's described will also be what they experience, when using the same cables :)
One thing I would say is that, when assessing cables, it should really be done as a complete 'loom' from a single manufacturer, i.e. the whole system should be hooked up with the same cable, rather than mixing and matching with those from other manufacturers, as the effect of the new cable will be altered (and to an extent diluted) by the 'sonic signature' of the other cables, already being used.
Therefore, if you really want to hear what the 223.5 Connect Litz (or any other cable) can do, you need to introduce it as the analogue audio signal carrier throughout your system, not simply between your Isis and 82, which I know is easier said than done in a largely Naim system! ;)
Marco.
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Not necessarily. Let me explain:Quote:
One thing I would say is that, when assessing cables, it should really be done as a complete 'loom' from a single manufacturer, i.e. the whole system should be hooked up with the same cable, rather than mixing and matching with those from other manufacturers, as the effect of the new cable will be altered (and to an extent diluted) by the 'sonic signature' of the other cables, already being used.
A particular set of interconnects might be correctly balanced between say the output impedance of your preamp and the input impedance of your power amp. But that same set of interconnect might be in total imbalance between your CD player and your preamp.
One reason for that, as far as I have been able to deduct from my own cable designing days, is that with no fixed standard as far as output and input impedance is concerned, it is a trial and error game for the consumer as far as finding a suitable solution is concerned.
I'm happy enough with it to keep it for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
It still has to burn in and this is not this cable's permanent slot. I assume that will be somewhere between the record deck and amp - which needs some work, the absolute minimum being a SUT and Phono pre amp.
Wanted to try one and after my experience with TQ speaker cables against Naim I was prepared for a so so result.
'Happy enough' seems a good nutshell description
:)
Absolutely, Stan, electrical compatibility is indeed another important variable to take into consideration.
All I can do is state from experience that, in general, I've always had better results using the same interconnect cables from source to power amp, than mixing and matching different types. Speaker cables are a different matter.
However, like anything in audio, there are very few hard and fast rules to universally follow - as ever, one must 'suck it and see' :)
Marco.
Hi Mike,
Nice one. Experience so far definitely suggests that the 223.5 Connect Litz works best when used in the above scenario, particularly in conjunction with a 423.5 Phono Litz tonearm cable, between SUT and phono stage, which is precisely where I'm using it at the moment, to stunning sonic effect!Quote:
I'm happy enough with it to keep it for sure.
It still has to burn in and this is not this cable's permanent slot. I assume that will be somewhere between the record deck and amp - which needs some work, the absolute minimum being a SUT and Phono pre amp.
I really like the attention to detail Yannis has paid, in terms of earthing/grounding, by employing the use of flying leads to 'drain away' unwanted noise. I'm certain that this is a major reason why his cables sound so 'quiet', unfailingly musically involving, and thus allow the full dynamic range of the source components (and music) to be heard in all its glory.
Your new cable should really come alive when an SUT and new phono pre-amp are introduced into your system! :cool:
Marco.
Marco, have you had a chance to record your deck yet with that test record? I'll be free from the chains of impending website launch by next week. I could pop over to 'supervise'...
Hi Simon,
Soz, mate. Not yet, and TBH, I don't really know what I'm doing when recording it...
I'm busy until the end of the month (catching up on stuff since I've come back from hols), so why don't we arrange a sesh for sometime after that? We need to get an agreed date in a diary, though, otherwise it'll never happen.
Your place or mine, it doesn't really matter, although I'd quite like to hear your Kuzma! :)
If you need the test record returned before then, just let me know :cool:
Marco.
I even asked for a flying earth lead, currently doing nothing !Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
:)