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It would be quite difficult to measure the actual long-term speed stability differences on a crystal-controlled device. My feeling is that this particular measurement would be rather meaningless. It would be possible to measure the W&F however that measurement too has its limits as it depends on many variables, including the test record used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Alex
W&F figures (before and after) using a series of chosen test records, played and analysed over and extended period of time, would be useful.
Basically, I'm looking for any objective evidence which proves beyond reasonable doubt that the extra mass of the new platter does not impact adversely on the speed stability of the SL-1200's drive system in the short, medium or long-term.
The reason I'm being so particular about this is quite simply because our ears would not immediately detect any minute variance in the speed stability of the drive system, but a stylus on a cartridge would.....
Therefore (if that were the case), through time this would manifest itself and translate to our ears as a blurring of the leading edges of notes, causing pitch and timing issues, and a perceived 'slowing down' of the music, even though objectively this may not show up on test apparatus, and through time, subsequent dissatisfaction of music reproduced - even if initially there were improvements sonically in other areas.
In effect, one could unconsciously succeed in eroding the very sonic characteristics which attracted us to the Technics in the first place.
It's a genuine serious concern of mine, and one which in the current absence of undisputable evidence to the contrary, I feel is entirely justified. I'm merely being as thorough as possible to ensure that every user experiences long-term satisfaction with this particular modification.
£650 is a not an inconsiderable sum to waste (not including the cost of a replacement motor unit, in the worst case scenario) should the new heavier platter cause more problems than it solves.
If Mike's platter works as well as his superb bearing does, and it's not a 'bridge too far', then trust me, no-one would be more pleased than me - and I'd be the first to praise it and promote its use amongst the many SL-1200/1210 aficionados here and elsewhere! :)
However, in the meantime, I feel that it's prudent to exercise caution.
Marco.
This new platter is £650 right?????
Bloody 'eck fella's, it's as bad as SME apparently charging £225 or so for a couple of phono sockets, a bit of bent metal and a screening can which fits decades worth of tonearms, so no R&D charges there.....
Apologies, I've already made my feelings on this plain enough and still think a Spacedeck with heavy kit (a graphite platter this one, plus a new arm-pod) and Wave Mechanic supply will be a musically better (or at least equal) sounding machine..
Prices:
AceSpace - £1200
Heavy Kit - £450
Wave Mechanic - £540 approx - re-generates the 50Hz waveform and gives speed adjustment too.
Total - £2190 AND IT'S ALL UK MADE!!!!!
So there!!!
I'll return to my slimy stone now and leave the rest to your bank balances...
Sounds interesting Dave, and I don't doubt that it sounds good, but have you heard one compared with a fully modded Techie?
I haven't sadly :( I'm hoping one of you will bother to compare. I CAN say that Tom's designs come incredibly close to what I know was there at the session (I had tapes and a Linn-cut master lacquer when I first discovered the range at HiFi dave's) and although I don't think Tom had access to master lacquers and tapes/files, this wonderful "feel" he has for decent engineering has enabled him to design some genuine "transcription" quality turntables at very reasonable prices (the Dias is amazing IMO)
I do know a dealer who compared a half-way Techie last year to a standard AceSpace and the NAS was better apparently (I do trust his hearing and he may come along later to confirm what I've said). I don't know the details and I DO FULLY UNDERSTAND that you can buy a reasonable 12** deck for very little and then take it from there as funds allow. By the time you've got there, you'll be a couple of grand at least further down the road but you may be so happy, you won't worry in the slightest.
Yeah, I wouldn't worry... Spending money on hifi stops me spending money on whores, smack and guns and stuff
:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
A couple of stats to ponder, from VE and Panasonics.
SP-10/2, platter 2.9kg, motor torque 6kg/cm.
SL-12xx, platter 1.7kg, motor torque 1.5kg/cm.
The SP-10/3 has a 10kg platter but they upped the motor torque to 16kg/cm to cope, obviously a couple of raw figures don't even begin to tell the story but I can't help thinking that the Technics designers probably had good reasons for doing things the way they did.
Dave I heard Marco TT at the weekend and like you been pretty much a sceptic about the 1210
I thought it was very good about on a similar par to a VPI Superscoutmaster with rim drive or a 401 well plinthed; but also think there is a lot more room for improvement in terms resolution to complete with the very best. I think the 1210 is a definate valid path to go down but as Marco knows I will choose another path.
For myself I would be more worried about the small fluctions the heavy platter might cause than wear, the bearing Mike makes looks a fantastic piece of kit.
Its a big investment and totally understand the concern people might have I can see perhaps Martin and Hamish going for this first and depending on reports Marco to purchase one.
I know Marco wants to take the 1210 to its ultimate performance and at this stage I do not think that has been reached.
Sorry I usually stay out of the 1210 threads just thought I add my two pence worth
Well, John, you've heard an extensively modified one now, so you're qualified to comment :)
Hi Ralph,
I would tend to agree......Quote:
The SP-10/3 has a 10kg platter but they upped the motor torque to 16kg/cm to cope, obviously a couple of raw figures don't even begin to tell the story but I can't help thinking that the Technics designers probably had good reasons for doing things the way they did.
Dave,
I'll get to the rest of what you've written later (some of your points are very valid), but no matter how good the Spacedeck is, it won't sound like a top-notch direct-drive T/T.
Once your ears have 'tuned into' the way both belt and direct-drive T/Ts present music, and highly favour one over the other, then nothing else will do.
There are fundamental issues, regarding the above, which I dislike about belt-drive T/Ts, so none, no matter how good they are, would likely ever satisfy my ears in the long-term.
David Price sums up the difference rather well between the two in this month's HFW, where he reviews the superb new Brinkmann Bardo direct-drive T/T. What he outlines almost exactly mirrors my own experiences in that respect.
I'm hopeful now that there are signs of the hi-end T/T audio industry embracing the clear advantages of D/D done well, which will hopefully continue to dissolve the ridiculous indoctrination we've been subjected to over many years that 'belt-drive is best', and that this will start to burst some important bubbles! ;)
I suggest that you pop out and buy a copy - the article makes for very interesting reading!
Ok, chaps, I'm going out for dinner now with Del to one of our favourite local wine bars, so (much) laterz! :cool:
Marco.