Tell me about valve equipment

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Tim,

Long time no hear! Welcome back :)

I'm afraid you won't be surprised to hear that I most vehemently disagree with both what you've written and the quote above (which bizarrely I can't seem to find...).

Anyway, I don't doubt that what you're saying applies in some cases, where valve amps are badly designed, but it most definitely isn't the case with high quality examples of the breed which have been designed properly by a competent engineer. That is a fact, and I'm sorry, I don't give a monkey's what science, measurements, or your limited experience (with valves) says to the contrary.

Quite simply, my 30W Class A Copper valve amp handles music more faithfully than ANY solid-state amp I've heard or owned - and trust me, the latter (owned & heard) goes into many hundreds!

You'll never see me refer to the sound of my Copper amp as 'warm', 'romantic', 'cosy', 'charming', or any of the other stereotypical traits held of valve equipment in the mindsets of the uninitiated, because it just doesn’t sound like that whatsoever – in fact, the total and complete opposite!! I’m sure that other owners here of high quality valve gear will share my sentiments.

If you think that all valve amps are about is imbuing the music signal with "charm" then, quite simply, you’ve never heard a really good valve amp… And that, my friend, is it in a nutshell.

Marco.

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A question for you Marco (since I made the quote in Tim's post above...). What didn't you like about the solid state amps you owned? Were they harsh, hard, dry and "flat perspectives?" Naim of the CB and Olive periods certainly do this to me (and I liked them at the time).

You see, if the solid state amps are reproducing the source more correctly (and superior measurements back this up), then the lovely valve amps you own and enjoy could possibly be perceived as having a touch of valve "charm" :)


I'm not spoiling for a row over this. My AVI preamp is definitely a more "correct" product as the output is an exact facsimile of the input signal fed it. I find I WANT a bit more "personality" both in operation (those damned twin volume controls :)) and in the sound, especially as my LP source isn't of the finest quality. With the 5841a's in the line stage, the Croft now has the honesty I felt lacking before and its added "charm" in both operation and sound is most agreeable to me. When I had the AVI/ATC 100A's combo, my HiFi hobby evaporated for a few years because I wasn't ever thinking about the *gear* at all. I find that with my current system, I love the music coming out, yet am having more fun with the messing about than I've had in ages - and this on a practically zero budget :(


You see where I'm coming from?

i have heard quite a few good non valve amps ,47 labs,lavardin,linslay hood,pass labs ,yba,
the 47 labs the french-japanese reviewer jean hiraga, he backed this company big time , he was possibly the first man also to start shouting about the triode valves ,so not a very long time ago maybe 25 years at most,all these valves were anchient history when hifi first appeared and that equiptment was very good eg. japan is full of quad ,leak,ratford,
but the senario of valve v s state well i would say first and foremost on the valve amp defence the engineer is the most vital thing any of the best of these people dont know they are special they are just doing what is easy to them so valves are useless without these people they are part of the valve era and most are well into there 60s now so i think that is most important factor in the comparison

Hi Dave,

Yes I see exactly where you're coming from :)

However, there are a number of areas where I would disagree with you. It requires quite a long reply, and at the moment I'm rather busy, so I'll come back to you later or, more likely, tomorrow :smoking:

One thing I would say is that not everything in this argument that's relevant to the accurate reproduction of recorded music, as far as the human ear is concerned, is measurable! You can only measure known electrical parameters via apparatus designed for a specific purpose. Trouble is, audio is not an exact science.

So forgive me if I put such comments as "superior measurements" and "exact facsimile of the input signal", into my file marked: 'not entirely relevant to what really matters' ;)

Marco.

Whenever I listen to my ss system, which lives upstairs, i think 'this is great, why don't I just use this all the time?'

Then I listen to the valve system (if/when it's working!) and am overwhelmed by its superiority. There's just 'more' of everything; more detail, more 'oomph', more space, more music. (Mind you, the valve system cost about three times the ss system, so it's a bit of an apples/pears comparison).

PS And I positively hate tweakery!

Marco, I think the basic objectivity was sorted decades ago, but measurement techniques weren't fully evolved at the time.

I don't know why I'm taking a "measurement/ss" stance as I love what good valve gear does. I reckon we in the UK can thank the likes of Dennis Morecroft for helping to bring star-earthing back to ss designs in the late seventies. Better ss devices meant less needed to get the power up per channel (all those old US and Jap amps with *banks* of output trannies warming up at different rates...). On the other hand, good transformer and valve manufacturers went to the wall as valve amps disappeared from the scene. Thankfully for us, Tim de P returned to the UK and helped to bring good valve designs back to the UK Top End market, starting with an exceptional model using cheap TV ouput valves!!!!!. Tim has claimed that he can design circuits using both types of device with identical results and I'm sure he's right.

The thing is, like vinyl vs CD reproduction, both types of amp go wrong in opposite ways, bad valves often sounding thick, bloated and squidgey, where bad ss goes harsh and nasty, especially at high volumes. Advancing age and hearing abuse in younger years makes middle aged ears more over-sensitive to hardness in the upper-mid/lower-top and this is certainly the case with me. Amps with odd-order distortion combined with crossover artifacts (you know the ones ;)) that once sounded "exciting" just sound harsh and nasty now, especially when they "take off" when singers sing out - ughhh!

Perhaps I should end before I drop in the huge hole I've dug for myself. I can't wait to get the Quad II's going again (awaiting a GEC KT66), as despite the obvious objective colourations, they make music so lovely to listen to. The Crowns I'm currently using actually sound really good (even better as they were given to me :)) and don't seem to get in the way. I can't ask for any more than that at present.

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Marco, I think the basic objectivity was sorted decades ago, but measurement techniques weren't fully evolved at the time.

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The point being Dave, that in my opinion, not everything that *needs* to be measured in relation to hi-fi (valves vs. ss or whatever) CAN currently be measured! ;)

That's why basing your argument on the specs/science/measurements angle is a little flaky. There's stuff going on in numerous areas of audio that oscilloscopes and spectrum analysers just don't 'get', but yet our ears can quite clearly and genuinely hear...

I still remember you telling me that the M3D was as dull as dishwater and had no top end, and yet is this what you hear despite what the measured frequency response says? Your (old) avatar suggests not :eyebrows:

Think about this in relation to valves, i.e. you can't tell the whole story from measurements alone. More later - you raise some good points.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

The point being Dave, that in my opinion, not everything that *needs* to be measured in relation to hi-fi (valves vs. ss or whatever) CAN currently be measured! ;)

...you can't tell the whole story from measurements alone. More later - you raise some good points.

Marco.

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I'm not an engineer (as you've all no doubt discovered) but I do believe that there isn't much (if anything) that hasn't been "sorted" by now. A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous, as the things one doesn't understand becomes like magic or "fairy-dust" when there's a perfectly valid reason behind them.

Good engineers have to work with inevitable compromises I think. The best ones are able to juggle the compromises around or minimise them altogether and I still maintain that many of these compromises have become less as more sophisticated components have become available, such as new capacitors, 1% resistors when 10% was commonplace back then and higher output transistors. Certainly with speakers, cheap, small speakers sound better today that would have been possible forty years ago (yes, I do know Goodmans Maxims from this era). The fact that very few people seem to want big, easy-breathing speakers in their UK homes these days is very sad though.....

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I'm not an engineer (as you've all no doubt discovered) but I do believe that there isn't much (if anything) that hasn't been "sorted" by now.

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I'm afraid I don't, Dave - far from it. I've genuinely heard too many things in hi-fi that science can't explain to come to any other conclusion.

Can the sonic effect of Mana equipment supports (or Quadraspire, Townshend and others) be measured and proof found for why exactly they work? No, (at least not that I'm aware). Can the benefits of what they do be easily heard? Most definitely yes!

Ditto with good quality mains leads, as opposed to cheapo 'kettle leads', and a few other things too I could mention. Why does the last 2m of mains cable powering hi-fi equipment make such a difference to its performance? Can measurements explain that fully?

Again, I don't use expensive Transparent mains leads for the good of my health. I'd rather just use some bog standard solid-core mains cable, or a cheap Maplins jobby, and save lots of money, but unfortunately they sound worse.

Why do two identical types of valves from the same manufacturer measure exactly the same (using a valve tester) but still sound different? I've experienced that one, too, on more than a few occasions!

No, as I said before, audio is not an exact science and as such can't solely be judged on scientific or engineering terms. One has to trust one's ears as the final arbiter. Having the confidence, not to mention experience and skill to do that though, is another matter altogether... Some people need things to be 'black & white', rather than shades of grey. Their mindset is incompatible with any other way of thinking.

Marco.

Quick reply...

I don't think anyone has measured what happens to equipment placed on Mana, whether it be speakers, amps or LP12's for that matter.

Cheapo kettle leads are often made with low gauge and low grade wire. better standard cables are available if you strike lucky and as for fancy ones like the Naim one, I honestly suspect that 80 - 90% of the "difference" is the 38A rated connecting wire. If the plugs and sockets make all the difference to a Naim wire, why not hard-wire all their products and remove much of the "problem" at source?

Regarding the mains wires to the system making an effect, I think that was covered by some wide-band frequency analysis some years ago. Many of the fancy filtering wires (such as the Transparent ones I think) will filter much of the RF mush coming in. Much domestic audio has inappropriate isolation from such things (amps run almost at the point of ringing/instability, that kind of thing), so some of these things are magnified.

One thing that interested me though. Sowter transformers (made apparently not far from me) have an OFC option for 20% more. They don't claim any severe measurable difference, despite lots of wire being in the transformers, but clients of there's have preferred these products wired with the stuff and Sowter have seen fit to offer the option without judgement, which I think is a very good move IMO.

Dave,

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Cheapo kettle leads are often made with low gauge and low grade wire. better standard cables are available if you strike lucky and as for fancy ones like the Naim one, I honestly suspect that 80 - 90% of the "difference" is the 38A rated connecting wire. If the plugs and sockets make all the difference to a Naim wire, why not hard-wire all their products and remove much of the "problem" at source?

Regarding the mains wires to the system making an effect, I think that was covered by some wide-band frequency analysis some years ago. Many of the fancy filtering wires (such as the Transparent ones I think) will filter much of the RF mush coming in. Much domestic audio has inappropriate isolation from such things (amps run almost at the point of ringing/instability, that kind of thing), so some of these things are magnified.

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I don't disagree, but try putting the above to the belligerent pseudo-scientist/objectivist types who populate forums and watch them pooh-pooh it because of the lack of 'evidence'. Look what your pal Ashley, for example, has to say about cables, and valves, and vinyl, and... ermm....! ;)

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I don't think anyone has measured what happens to equipment placed on Mana, whether it be speakers, amps or LP12's for that matter.

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What exactly would you be measuring and what with? It's far too complicated a subject for any layman to embark on.

Marco.