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I agree the mastering and care in production a great recording maketh.Quote:
Originally Posted by TONEPUB
Give me a giant mixing desk and quality engineering over Pro Tools any day.
That could be a future problem though if all other mediums were to disappear and all music was streamed. If the reverence and time in the finished product is no longer there or needed the produced music will surely suffer.
Disposable culture surely means lower quality.
No problem with any of that Marco me old china.
I must admit I do miss the record sleeves; a pixel light image on a screen just doesn’t cut it.
Shame you’re mainly into classical and I wasn’t about when I unloaded my vinyl; even the 78’s went (sob sob)
What I wrote about listening to classical music though, I just can’t do it through a HiFi not mine or anyone else’s I’ve heard.
Maybe your kit would do the trick but you ain’t going to give it to me are you?
I’ve always believed you would need a huge listening room and kit capable of at least 10Hz to 40 kHz to cover what can be heard, felt and, if you believe that perception of sound goes beyond aural capacity, perceived. Even then, there is something about dressing up, an attractive lady on your arm and the entire ambiance of the concert experience.
Fortunately a lot of the more modern music often sounds better once the recording engineer has straightened out the final mix. I cant think of many live rock/whatever concerts I’ve been to where live matched recorded in quality and I’m a modern music fan.
Maybe Tower of Power were one of the exceptions to this.
However, despite all of our different perspectives and different means of replaying the music we like, I have a feeling that if it hasn’t already happened it wont be long before a handful of bits shunted through a USB or Firewire cable will produce audio indistinguishable from the master mix.
Let’s hope so or we may all be listening to mp3 on a white fruit company pod thingy.
I certainly agree with the Pro Tools thing...Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB
What's unfortunate, is that a fair share of the vinyl being cut today is from digital masters via pro tools with no care. In almost every case, the dig file sounds better.
But every now and then something really great appears and that's what makes this still fun!
Hi Jeff,
That's fine - it would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything! :)Quote:
Sorry, I beg to differ.
Again, no problem. I've heard some very good computer audio set-ups too, but none can hold a candle, sonically and musically, to really well recorded vinyl played on my T/T, or others I've heard of similar or better quality. All I can do is relate the results of my experience so far.Quote:
I've got halfway decent analog and digital setups and it always comes down to the mastering. I've heard great and poor examples of each. And while I've always been thumbs down on computer playback, the recent Amarra player that now plays the track directly from memory is not only fantastic, but has really changed my thinking of what computer audio is capable of. And it's not terribly expensive either.
The fact is, in my circumstances with my system, I have recordings on vinyl which sound WAY better than anything on CD (very good though some of those are), even though I have a superb CD player and love listening to music through it on a daily basis. We're talking veritable 'night & day' differences between the best of the respective recordings, Jeff - it's not subtle!
However, YMMV :smoking:
Well, when you listen to vinyl, you take it out its sleeve, pop it onto your T/T and place the stylus on the record grooves: that, my friend, is somewhat of a 'ritual'! ;)Quote:
I don't have a "ritual" for listening to music.
And it's what I was referring to earlier when I used the word. It's also that type of physical interaction that's missing when one listens to music via a computer, and which I thus dislike with streaming music, because I enjoy that process.
Yes I enjoy playing CDs, too, but for me it's nowhere near as much fun as playing records. I don't see this as being "romantic", but rather simply being more 'human', i.e. doing things yourself, by adopting a manual process, rather than a machine doing it for you.Quote:
I just enjoy it and I enjoy it just as much when played from a disc, a computer or a vinyl LP. I like them all. Nothing wrong with being romantic, however it's not the only way to go.
As I said, I dislike the way some forms of technology have, to an extent, dehumanised us. It also encourages laziness in many forms. Quite simply, I enjoy doing things, rather than machines doing them for me. I also like to think for myself, rather than a machine doing my thinking for me! It's what makes us function as human beings, not robots.
I feel largely the same way about mobile phones, for example, which in many ways have killed the art of conversation, as people would rather send each other texts than actually lift the phone and talk. Jeez, I know people who would still rather text each other than speak, even when they live in the same house or are in the same room!! How bloody lazy and utterly crazy, not to mention inhuman, is that??? :mental:
And let's not even mention how badly mobile phones have affected the ability of people to write properly with the correct grammar and punctuation, with the proliferation now of god awful 'text speak'! :rolleyes:
Like I said before, don't get me started on this type of thing, as it's a major bugbear of mine ;)
Nice one - I'm pleased you enjoy it, but it's not really for me. Each to his or her own, I guess.Quote:
And I love having 7500 CD's on the Sooloos. Not only am I listening to more of my music collection than I used to, my whole family is as well. Nothing dehumanizing about that. The Sooloos has two full backups, so it won't be lost "in the blink of an eye with a software failure."
Yes, but in that instance how long would it take to rip your whole music collection on disc? I'm afraid I'd lose the will to live if I had to do that - it would likely take years!!Quote:
Even if we did have a catastrophic meltdown, I still own all of my discs, so it would just be some time to rip it all again.
Nah, I'll stick to having a physical music collection I can put my hands on at any time and continue playing my LPs and CDs for the foreseeable future, thank you very much :cool:
Marco.
I'm not sure what "topic" it is you are referring to.Quote:
Dr Flicker
Bad music! My dear chap “bad” music isn’t a concept I subscribe to
I’ve had more arguments on this topic than I care to think about.
What relevance does your taste in music have to do with anything?Quote:
An example of my current playlist:
AudioSlave
Ace of Base
Air
Portishead
Ray Charles
The Cardigans
Little Feat
Miles Davis
Metallica
Dave Van Ronk
Sugarbabes
Traffic
That may or may not be true, but I still don't understand your argument...are you saying playback equipment makes no difference if the source material is the same?Quote:
What I was trying to point out was when confronted with the HiFi/Music snob who insists that he can only bear to listen to Classical music on his multi thousand pound system it might be worth pointing out at some point that he probably listens to the same over produced, over-sampled redbook quality recordings as everyone else.
This is a pure straw man argument.Quote:
Of course, the Vinyl junkies will probably tell you that Vinyl replay allows them to hear all those little nuances and harmonics only the very best equipment and a classically trained ear can detect.
Sounds vaguely plausible until you discover the precious recording they are driveling on about was knocked up in a modern recording studio within the last decade.
No worries though, we are all entitled to a bit of self deception
You sound like you are excluding yourself from any of that, when in fact, you are doing exactly what you are accusing those hypothetical people of doing.Quote:
The truth is these days I don’t take the HiFi press, forums, forum contributors or any of the “audiophile” nonsense too seriously.
Hey...you switched to a particular format for reasons that make sense to you, and you're rationalizing...like people tend to do.
If the lossless file route makes your life easier and you miraculously believe it kills every other format at the same time...big double win for you!!!! But to relegate everyone else who hasn't made this epiphany to deluded fools status is, well...deluded. You're trying way to hard, so I'm inclined to believe there's a little resentment lurking there.
I couldn't agree more.Quote:
As I said, I dislike the way some forms of technology have, to an extent, dehumanised us. It also encourages laziness in many forms. Quite simply, I enjoy doing things, rather than machines doing them for me. I also like to think for myself, rather than a machine doing my thinking for me! It's what makes us function as human beings, not robots.
I feel largely the same way about mobile phones, for example, which in many ways have killed the art of conversation, as people would rather send each other texts than actually lift the phone and talk. Jeez, I know people who would still rather text each other than speak, even when they live in the same house or are in the same room!! How bloody lazy and utterly crazy, not to mention inhuman, is that???
And let's not even mention how badly mobile phones have affected the ability of people to write properly with the correct grammar and punctuation, with the proliferation now of god awful 'text speak'!
Like I said before, don't get me started on this type of thing, as it's a major bugbear of mine
It fosters more than just laziness and poor communication skills. How many people do you see making transactions (store, bank, etc) with their ipods still playing in their ears. That is disrespectful and downright rude. This is now the norm.
We are in the age of convenience and instant gratification. Listening to your ipod while doing everything else is not multitasking...it's doing everything half-assed.
I like eating good food...I also enjoy preparing it. I also prefer using good quality ingredients and equipment to do it. This has both a practical advantage as well as an intrinsic value. It doesn't necessarily guarantee the food is going to be better, but it stands a much better chance because of it. And in the end, it doesn't matter, as I enjoyed the process on its own.
With audio playback equipment, there's always the chance of better sounding music. Besides that, the "hobby" of it brings it's own rewards, not least of which, is pride of ownership.
"Things" give me comfort.
I'm not sure which is funnier; people debating on an Internet forum about how technology's killing the art of this, that and the other (hem hem), or people complaining about poor grammar, then using an apostrophe for the possessive form of 'its'.
Still, at least no-one's mentioned 'flat earth' yet.
Hi Joe,
Who made the error with 'its'? More than likely it was a typo :)
Regarding your other comment, it's not about rejecting ALL forms of new technology - heaven forbid! New technology is wonderful and definitely has its place; like you say, we wouldn't be having this discussion without it!
No, my bugbear is people who let new technology and its associated gadgetry almost rule their lives, where seemingly they cannot function without it.
Like Kevin says, some people need to have bloody iPod earphones plugged into their lugs all the time as they go about their daily business, and it is extremely rude. I love music the same as the next man, but I can do without it for 5 mins while I'm at the checkout of a supermarket or at the bank! :rolleyes:
Some people can't even go on holiday without taking their bloody laptop with them, and all sorts of other pish, and I just find this very bizarre.....
We went to France by car recently and not only did we not have our laptops with us, or any desire whatsoever to log onto the Internet for the duration of our stay, but our mobile phones were switched off (and only checked periodically for any messages) - we'd probably not even have taken watches with us if we could've gotten away with it! ;)
Holidays are about switching off from 'normality' and completely chilling out - and that means leaving any superfluous paraphernalia at home!
Kevin,
Hear, hear! I agree 100% with your sentiments :clap:Quote:
It fosters more than just laziness and poor communication skills. How many people do you see making transactions (store, bank, etc) with their ipods still playing in their ears. That is disrespectful and downright rude. This is now the norm.
We are in the age of convenience and instant gratification. Listening to your ipod while doing everything else is not multitasking...it's doing everything half-assed.
I like eating good food...I also enjoy preparing it. I also prefer using good quality ingredients and equipment to do it. This has both a practical advantage as well as an intrinsic value. It doesn't necessarily guarantee the food is going to be better, but it stands a much better chance because of it. And in the end, it doesn't matter, as I enjoyed the process on its own.
With audio playback equipment, there's always the chance of better sounding music. Besides that, the "hobby" of it brings it's own rewards, not least of which, is pride of ownership.
"Things" give me comfort.
Marco.
Kevin.
I was referring to this.
“But that still doesn't stop me from listening to bad music that's superbly recorded, or superb music that's badly recorded.”
I may have misunderstood your meaning here but given you’ve covered recording quality I assumed that music genre was what you meant by “bad music”.
If this assumption is incorrect then perhaps you would care to explain exactly what you mean by “bad music”.
“What relevance does your taste in music have to do with anything?”
Well, not very much. However, given the original context of the quote you responded to, and the above, and considering in other debates I’ve had concerning “bad music” which usually revolve around genre, I was trying to point out that while some may consider particular genres of music less worthy of being heard on hi fidelity equipment, I don’t.
This should have been made obvious by the next piece of the post you’ve picked out.
“What I was trying to point out was when confronted with the HiFi/Music snob who insists that he can only bear to listen to Classical music on his multi thousand pound system it might be worth pointing out at some point that he probably listens to the same over produced, over-sampled redbook quality recordings as everyone else.”
I don’t think the general meaning of my post was overly obscure because Marco seems to have understood it without problem.
Anyway, once you have clarified what you meant by “bad music” then we will be in a better position to assess the relevance of my response.
“That may or may not be true, but I still don't understand your argument...are you saying playback equipment makes no difference if the source material is the same?”
No.
I am saying that a great deal of classical music (the assumed to be not “bad” music and therefore more worthy of hi fidelity reproduction in some peoples views; a view which you may or may not hold given it is yet to be established but I have assumed, rightfully or wrongfully; phew, hard work this) is often recorded at the same standard as the “bad” music and in theory, provided the replay equipment can cope adequately with redbook, wouldn’t have any less quality of sound at replay than the good music.
I did go on to make a separate case for non digital recording and playback.
“This is a pure straw man argument.”
I don’t know what this means. What is a straw man argument?
“You sound like you are excluding yourself from any of that, when in fact, you are doing exactly what you are accusing those hypothetical people of doing.”
Do I?
I did at least manage to make myself clear on this point then. The only fact here is I posted.
Am I?
Try as I might I cannot find any accusations in my statement.
”Hey...you switched to a particular format for reasons that make sense to you, and you're rationalizing...like people tend to do.”
True.
”If the lossless file route makes your life easier and you miraculously believe it kills every other format at the same time...big double win for you!!!! But to relegate everyone else who hasn't made this epiphany to deluded fools status is, well...deluded. You're trying way to hard, so I'm inclined to believe there's a little resentment lurking there.”
Please point out where I have written that I “believe it kills every other format.”
I don’t believe in miracles and I certainly don’t believe in miraculous belief.
Please show me where I have even hinted that anyone who doesn’t follow my “epiphany” is a deluded fool.
I’m glad you at least notice and appreciate that I do put some effort into my posts.
You are of course free to believe what you like. However, the only lurking resentment I can detect is in the tone of your post; about what exactly, and why, I have no idea.
Pride of ownership.
Sure it’s nice while it lasts.
“Things give me comfort.” Hmm, personally I think that’s a bit sad. Things give me pleasure, sometimes, but more often than not because of something that thing can do rather than it just being another thing to own. Still, each to his own.
Right, my turn now.
“It fosters more than just laziness and poor communication skills. How many people do you see making transactions (store, bank, etc) with their ipods still playing in their ears. That is disrespectful and downright rude. This is now the norm.”
What absolute rubbish.
I see very few people behaving in this manner.
To be the norm, more people than not would have to be making commercial transactions with ipods still playing in their ears. The people who behave in this manner are a minority and I would suggest a very small minority at that.
While you may find it irritating, as I do at times, unless they are communicating directly with you, in which case you politely request they remove the device when speaking to you, I really can’t see why what other people choose to stick in their ears should bother you.
“We are in the age of convenience and instant gratification.”
Might not all ages have been like this? Couldn’t it just be that convenience and gratification are more easily obtained in this age, or is this some deep moral outrage surfacing?
Listening to your ipod while doing everything else is not multitasking...it's doing everything half-assed.”
This depends on whether you believe listening to music is a task. If it isn’t a task, then it shouldn’t interfere with the conscious effort required to carry out other tasks.
Would you for example forbid the listening to music on a car stereo on the grounds that it interferes with the driver’s concentration?
I carry out a great many tasks that require fairly intense concentration while listening to music and I haven’t noticed any deterioration in outcome because I was listening to music at the time.
Isn’t this complaint about those who have music playing through ear buds more about the person who perceives the behavior viewing the others partial isolation from the environment as anti social?
One might be forgiven for believing one has stumbled on the reactionary old bastards thread from reading some of the above.
I use a mobile phone to text and yes, I have on occasions used “text speak” I don’t consider myself as illiterate or unable to communicate effectively through other mediums. There is a very good reason why people use text rather than speak directly; it’s a lot cheaper!
Text speak, or word abbreviation is a lot quicker to type. If for example they were using Morse code would the practice be received with the same disparaging comments?
Is there any evidence that the use of text speak is having a long term effect on the relevant generations grasp of the English language and would it really matter if such an effect was evident?
Anything that encourages the young in particular to communicate should be encouraged in my view. Just because another generation looks down upon the practice because they don’t consider it to be “proper” English doesn’t lessen its value as a means of communication. Provided the recipient can understand the message I really don’t see what the outrage is about.
I have used a music player with ear buds on a number of occasions and yes it was in public (instant credibility loss). Perhaps if those who so readily condemn the practice had to endure the constant drone and hum of machinery day in day out they might also prefer to listen to something else.
It may come as a shock but we don’t all live and work in ideal circumstances. The young in particular would seem to be at a disadvantage in today’s society and the comments concerning dehumanization and lack of discernment with regard to quality and manners would seem to be directed primarily at a younger generation.
If there is any truth in these opinions then perhaps it may be well to bear in mind that as the “elders” and supposedly more responsible we have allowed society to get like this. In fact, it’s been my generation that has constantly promoted technology and convenience above other values.
It’s great that some of us believe we have reached a comfortable, relatively affluent and happy stage in our lives. I would suggest before you sit back in comfort with a glass of good wine in your hand or your meal consisting of “good quality” ingredients and place the needle in the groove of your well recorded vinyl music (no this isn’t directed at any one person, it’s a general comment relevant to many of us I suspect) directing a stream of phlegm at the dehumanized, text speak, ipod generation, you try to remember you were also young once and maybe even less well off and equally antisocial.
Finally, phew, another wall of text; I must be bored.
Hi John,
Wow... Chillax! There's a rather quaint modern expression you'll enjoy ;)
This thread is getting rather off-topic, so I'll simply address this issue, which I feel is important, and leave it there:
The problem is, 'text speak' teaches kids bad habits and makes them lazy in terms of their use of language; it most certainly does not improve their written communication skills.Quote:
Anything that encourages the young in particular to communicate should be encouraged in my view. Just because another generation looks down upon the practice because they don’t consider it to be “proper” English doesn’t lessen its value as a means of communication. Provided the recipient can understand the message I really don’t see what the outrage is about.
My wife is a lecturer at one of the largest colleges in our area, and I'm always horrified to see how kids manage to progress into further education at the age of 16, 17 and 18, while barely able to string a coherent sentence together with correct grammar and punctuation. I help her mark their homework, so I see the evidence with my own eyes!
There are of course many reasons for that sorry state of affairs, not least of which a catalogue of failures in our current education system (together in some instances with bad parenting), but communicating on mobile phones using 'text speak' has most certainly not helped the situation.
I too (sometimes) use 'text speak' when contacting friends on my mobile phone because, as you say, it's quicker and cheaper to do so than using proper words and punctuation, but then I can switch off from that mode when the need demands and write formally to a reasonable standard.
It's the inability of many of today's kids to do that, and know when various forms of language are acceptable, or not, which is the problem. New technology is a great thing, but only when it benefits our learning process more than it hinders it.
Marco.
I use my phone a lot, mainly for speaking to people and so have lots of minutes. I also use it for the internet including right now and I send an average of 40 text messages a month, most of which are grouped together in twos and threes because I use proper words and punctuation.
In terms of music format, I'd always choose on the basis of sound quality over all other considderations. I'm really not fussed about the touch-feely aspect to choosing music to play.
If I'm to rail against modern technology, my bugbear is satnavs. You become a slave to a machine giving you orders and sometimes the wrong instructions. All being well you arrive safely at your destination but don't have a clue how you actually got there; you certainly don't learn routes using satnav.
Me, I prefer the old fashioned navigation method called a "map."
I do like google maps though because they enable you to plan and learn your route in advance and using Streetview enable you to see what your destination looks like.