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After hearing a DCS Scarlatti front end at the Scottish hi-fi show a few months ago, I have to say that I never expected such grace, naturalness and musicality from a silver disc spinner. Awesome, frankly awesome!
Mind you, for the fat end of £40k it should sound reasonably good. :)
Transport:
http://www.aslgroup.com/dcs/Transport%20ON.JPG
Clock:
http://www.aslgroup.com/dcs/Clock%20ON.JPG
DAC:
http://www.aslgroup.com/dcs/DAC%20ON.JPG
Yummy!
The above is also my dream digital setup. It would have to be sitting on acrylic Quadraspire Reference supports though.
Pah! Who wants that unnatural sounding up-sampling bollocks? A classic Jap battleship CDP (full of yummy bits) is what you want, modified and upgraded with top-notch up-to-date components ;)
<Discuss>
Marco.
Me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Me too if I could afford it.
I've heard it and with that you can probably forget your black discs. ;)
(apart from those 200g virgin pressings that you've got that seem to defy any theoretical notion of dynamic range limitations from vinyl...)
Rick/Larry, tell us more.
Dream on, sunshine! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
However, DCS make some fantastic CD players.
Marco.
I'm buying a lot of re-issues cut into heavy vinyl.These really heavy examples of Led Zepppelin sound fantastic (Better than the 1st issue Atlantic Plumbs)...Not many within my type of music...The new 180 grammers are nice tho...Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
These are pics I took of the Scarlatti on demonstration at the Audio Works last summer:
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9...2007133qz2.jpg
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5...2007135zj9.jpg
This particular combination sounded absolutely stunning and comprised of:
Scarlatti Transport, DAC and Word Clock
Spectral DMC-15 preamp.
Densen B-330 power amp
Peak Consult Princess speakers
Siltech Forbes Lake and SQ 28 interconnects
Chord Epic Twin cables
Music Works Reflex block and Recoil leads.
Music Works/Quadraspire Reference stands (large) in acrylic.
Don't let me bring my credit card on Saturday mate. :eek:
The DCS equipment looks so solid, matches the solid sound.
It has to be the Scarlatti as well for me. Although with Marco's comment, I have heard CD Players with upsamplers where the upsampler does more harm than good.
Yup, I have much enjoyed the sound of those DCS bits'n'bobs at Shows .... but I must confess that to me they look like cheap Taiwanese trash! :confused:
Upsampling normally does add its own signature like making the sound more lively and upfront than what is, it can suit some music better than others.
Better to have the option of switching it off
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and is only skin deep... To me they sound stunning and look like they do the business. They are very solidly built though and look better in the flesh than in the pictures.Quote:
but I must confess that to me they look like...
They look loads better in the flesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
They're for listening to, not looking at anyway :)
Never heard DCS stuff. What sort of sonic signature does it have?
Lefty
'Quality'. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Lefty
Doesn't really have one to be honest, the best word (in my opinion) to describe it is 'complete'. However others may feel differently.
dCS to me is the state of the art where silver disc spinning is concerned. I guess its sonic signature is dynamics, tunefulness, resolution, transparency and tonal neutrality.
I want I want!
Lefty
Lefty/Amar,
There is a catch - it's called upsampling. The Scarlatti uses it and it carries a certain sonic signature when not partnered carefully. Basically upsampling brings dynamics and life to the party. It also brings a superficial sheen to the sound.
Now, harness the dynamic prowess of the combo and the sheen is not noticeable at all. Fail to do that by using syrupy valve amps and wooden ordinary furniture tables instead of QS Ref supports in acrylic and it is initially beguiling but ultimately irritating, especially when the music gets kinda busy and there is a lot of percussion stuff going on. I guess microphony kicked in during busy musical passages; the venerable Scarlatti made a brave fist of it but it still managed to sound rather jangly.
Don't forget, the Scarlatti is not designed by Hi-Fi enthusiasts, it is in fact designed by computer scientists and digital engineers whose sole philosophy is; get as much information as possible off the disc, and attempt to retain as much of that data as possible.
Simple as that.
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a sonic signature?
An identifiable character trait I guess, in equipment. What is upsampling and how does it actually extract more data from the disc?Quote:
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a sonic signature?
Don't get me wrong; I love the Scarlatti and if 33k came my way this is what I'd buy.
I agree, and it's something I've been aware of for a while with upsampling CDPs. I had only heard the Scarlatti once before the show at the weekend (at last year's London hi-fi show in the exact same set-up) and the signature you've defined raised its ugly head all too noticeably again to my ears at the weekend when playing some Bert Jansch:Quote:
There is a catch - it's called upsampling. The Scarlatti uses it and it carries a certain sonic signature when not partnered carefully. Basically upsampling brings dynamics and life to the party. It also brings a superficial sheen to the sound.
www.bertjansch.com
You can listen to the track 'Black Swan' that I'm referring to by clicking on the link on the website homepage above.
It's a superb album, very well recorded, and the title track has some beautiful melodies and interplay between vocals and acoustic guitar. When the acoustic guitar comes to the fore more prominently, as the track progresses and Jansch plucks strings more forcefully, on a really good system you can hear the 'attack' of the note as it starts, the reverb of the plucked strings, and then the detail of the note as it decays and fades.
On the Scarlatti the 'attack' of the note as described above was curtailed and its impact diminished - it was as if something had buffed away the rough edges and applied a sonic 'moisturiser'. The grit and intensity that makes this track so beguiling and purposeful was gone, and thus less worthy to listen to as a result. Moreover, it made the whole song sound too 'nice', which I do not feel is representative of how it should sound. I became bored, rather than captivated, which is alien to me when listening to this familiar piece of music.
I have heard this effect before with other upsampling CDPs, so although the partnering equipment, which wasn't to my taste, and less than ideal set-up (the fact that the Scarlatti was sat on a wooden sideboard) would most likely have been partly to blame, I believe that the signature I've described is an inherent by-product of the upsampling process and common to all CDPs that employ this process.
Interestingly, when Steve and me went to the Audionote room and played the same piece of music immediately after through their non-oversampling, non-upsampling £1800 CDP, the CD 1.1x, which also has no digital or analogue filtering; although the presentation lacked the finesse of the Scarlatti - it was clearly not as good a CDP, which of course is to be expected considering the vast difference in price, the signature I have been referring to, or "sheen" as Steve has described, completely disappeared so the sound and hence the music were rendered much more naturally and closer to what I'm used to hearing on my system at home, although the modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 I use is superior, similar to how the Scarlatti has more finesse, but in a different way.
Subsequently I've concluded that upsampling CDPs aren't for me: the process adds something that to my ears is unnatural. For me, as with most things in hi-fi, it's best to keep things as simple as possible, and as far as CDPs are concerned that means strictly Red Book mechanisms and DACs with as little filtering or intrusion of the source signal as possible. Undoubtedly the Scarlatti is a very fine CD player, and for anyone who can listen through the upsampling signature, or indeed be completely unaware of it, and of course, has the necessary funds, it could be the answer and the last high-end CD player you will ever buy.
So Rick, me old mucker, if you were to sell a CD player to me at The AudioWorks I think it would probably need to be a super-duper one from Accuphase (their top model) or whatever, as I have a feeling something of that ilk is likely to be more to my taste :)
Although, having heard what computer audio is capable of when optimally set-up with a good DAC and playing lossless FLAC files through a decent partnering system, I think that my days of dropping large sums of money on CDPs are very likely over...
Marco.
Such a shame the dCS room was demoing with a pair of poor amps (in the context of the system) and on that absurd retro wooden furniture.
I'm sure a potential client would use appropriate isolation furniture and better amps - maybe like the Halcro amps the Scarlatti system was demonstrated in Scotland with - and would set the system up with care. Seems like the demo system was placed on whatever was handy.
Truthfully a system like that should blow one's socks off, and I was expecting it to. I left the dCS room feeling really disappointed especially as i had been raving about the Scarlatti all morrning.
Rob,Quote:
Such a shame the dCS room was demoing with a pair of poor amps (in the context of the system) and on that absurd retro wooden furniture.
Seems like the demo system was placed on whatever was handy.
DCS used the exact same furniture (and set-up) at the London show, so it appears that the wooden sideboard described is their stock choice of equipment support.
It therefore leaves me thinking the following of DCS:
1) they don't believe in 'fancy' supports.
2) They think that their equipment is so well engineered/designed that it doesn't benefit from the use of professionally designed equipment supports, which is quite clearly not the case as the same equipment performs substantially better set-up at the AudioWorks with QS acrylic Ref supports, MW cables, etc. It should also be noted that the £9k Puccini which was set-up in the AW show demo room in my opinion completely outperformed the Scarlatti.
3) They're aiming at the lifestyle market where potential customers care only about looks and prestige value, not performance, (a la B&O owners) and hence some type of wooden furniture would likely be what such customers would use. There are many people like this, especially in London, who would not think twice about dropping £33k on a new toy to impress their friends or colleagues.
I sincerely hope it's not 3), as that would be most disappointing.
Marco.
1) they don't believe in 'fancy' supports. They're wrong if they don't!
2) They think that their equipment is so well engineered/designed that it doesn't benefit from the use of professionally designed equipment supports, which is quite clearly not the case as the same equipment performs substantially better set-up at the AudioWorks with QS acrylic Ref supports, MW cables, etc. It should also be noted that the £9k Puccini which was set-up in the AW room in my opinion completely outperformed the Scarlatti. I agree mate, the Audioworks system was exceptionally better than the dCS room.
3) They're aiming at the lifestyle market where potential customers care only about looks and prestige value, not performance, (a la B&O owners) and hence some type of wooden furniture would likely be what such customers would use. There are many people like this, especially in London, who would not think twice about dropping £33k on a new toy to impress their friends or colleagues. That would be a terrible shame if the premier digital replay systems manufacturer thought this way - there's B&O for that!
I sincerely hope it's not 3), as that would be most disappointing. Me too mate.
Having heard the Scarlatti system a few times at Audioworks I can confirm that with all the Music Works ancilliaries, Spectral amps or even Accuphase into Peak Consult Princesses or Focal Divas, such a system fronted by the Scarlatti sounded so vividly realistic in both hi-fi and music terms that if you closed your eyes there was a grand piano in the room. The sheen I heard in the dCS room at the show was absent as was the politeness and reticence.
I'd like to hear a similar setup there with Avalon speakers.
It would be great if dCS could be persuaded to let AW set the whole thing up for them at the next show.
It doesn't get more data off the disc. but this is what I saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
What upsampling increases data retention. The law of averages show that if there are multiple of an item (or bit in this case) then you will lose far less data due to exterior noise or interference.Quote:
get as much information as possible off the disc, and attempt to retain as much of that data as possible.
Now, in this case, the upsampling is also used to take averages and smooth out curves in waves using very complex algorithms (and not just be taking mean averages).
This is taking me back to my 2nd year module on media processing.
Rick,
You should have a word with your dad and ask him to invite the decision maker(s) from DCS (in terms of what partnering equipment and ancillaries are chosen to be used with their equipment at shows) to come to your shop, listen to how DCS gear sounds set up on QS Ref acrylic, with Recoil leads, Reflex block, etc, and say, Spectral amps with Avalons or Peak Consults, and compare that with the sound they're used to hearing with their gear sat on a wooden sideboard and powered by bog standard mains leads.
If the demo is successful, and knowing you guys there's no reason why it wouldn't be, then there's no way the people at DCS could contend that the sound of their equipment is not improved. Buy them lunch, and make it a nice day for everyone concerned, because at the the moment it's blatantly obvious to any discerning listeners that their equipment is not being demonstrated to its best effect at shows. If I were in Larry's position I can assure you that's exactly what I would be doing.
The fact is the Puccini in your room at the show trounced the Scarlatti, the way DCS had it set up, and that situation cannot be deemed as a commercial success. Sometimes manufacturers have to be told how it is! ;)
Marco.
I would like to hear the latest Spectral SDR-4000S Pro CD player in an all Spectral setup
DMC 30SS/ DMA 360. I like the idea of a single box player.
A few thoughts......
Having owned the spectral 30s/360 mono set up I would like to offer a few words.
Both the Spectral amplification and the Avalon' loudspeakers are great quality equipment.
I can't help feel that in their own areas they are quite special, yet together they don't (to me any rate) produce the goods there are capable of in isolation to each other.
I know that the dcs and Spectral always are seen in partnership in quality demonstrations rooms and shows.
Perhaps the dcs with say the Karan or the Pass labs would have more of a interest factor possibly?
any thoughts?
As for the ideal digital set up, possibly a couple of combinations.
A Esoteric P-03 and the MSB Platinum Dac III with the ladder Dac conversion and G-0Rb master clock
Or
For those who seek a more rounded approach, a Esoteric P-01, Zanden Dac and G-0Rb master clock.
I have say that in my opinion that 2C3D systems are the best I've ever heard.
From The Grave
So what's changed in the world of digital wonderment since the start of 2008?
Nothing here - I'm still using the exact same CDP and DAC, and lovin' it! :eyebrows:
Marco (ees not a box-swapper).
This is my dream digital front end....
http://www.onahighernote.com/luxman/?c=7&id=46
Mmmm... Luxman - yummy! :eek:
Give me that any day over DCS (discussed at length earlier on this thread).
Marco.
I'm waiting to see if Spectral bring out the SDR5000 it will be a DAC of some sort
(or processor as Spectral like to call them)
I have my Ayre C-5xe SACD/DVD-A/CD player returned now and I still think it plays CDs with tremendous detail, soundstage and authority - especially so since the MP upgrade. For me, nothing has changed.
http://www.dvd-a.dk/images/hardware/...ayre_c_5xe.jpg
See below.....Its plenty good enough for my deaf ears. No plans or wish to change anything at all.
http://www.hifi123.nl/images/T/Neutr...em-on-blue.jpg
No hate mail please but this is what i dream about every night.
Jerry is currently trying out an MHDT Paradisea D/A that is straight 16 bit with no digital filter (like Audionote, I guess).
I have a modded MHDT 'Havana' that I like.
My ears take to it.
...you need better drugs Colin ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB
2 great top ends and a shapely bottom end....I dont see a problem with that....:lolsign:Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB
I've got mine thank you :eyebrows:
You should learn to share with friends :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant
Oh sorry , your refering to your digital set up. I thought you had better drugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB
I quite possibly have ;)
OOaOH! Ultimate digital from end...... It's deffo got to be two box CD player.
Let me think. How about a classic Marantz CD12/DA12 combo, lets have it modded to the hilt by Ken Ishiwata while we are dreaming as well please.:rave:
Remember those huge CD transports that Krell used to make: top loading with a massive, thick clear acrylic lid? One of those please with some spare lasers as well. ( I wish)
Or perhaps one of those marvellous Oracle CD transports that Mr C sells: yummy.:stalks:
I also love the Wadia sound and build quality. How about a used 861 and get Coherent systems to mod the nuts off it - great fun and value as a used buy.
While we are at it I'll take an Audionote DAC5 sig with NOS valves personally chosen by Peter Q.:trust:
MMMMM! My ears are tingling - who needs vinyl:ner:
Was it a Krell CD player that could do push-ups with it's drawer if you stood it on it's fascia & pressed 'open' with the remote?
An mp3 player and a set of ear buds……………:doh:
Well, I can dream cant I. Okay I couldn’t live with it but that’s much like other dreams I’ve had woken up to :mental:
Can we make an orderly queue for the better drugs chaps and Colin mate, get yer bloody elbow out of my ribs will ya! :lol: