Does size matter?

Has anyone else read the review of the Spendor SP-100R in this month's Hi-fi+ ?

It makes very interesting reading, and the reviewer, Chris Binns, touches on a point that I've always maintained...namely that it's impossible to get a realistic sound from small boxes. Scale and impact is very important to the convincing portrayal of music, especially anything that requires convincing bass to convey the musical message. I also believe that multiple-driver speakers (anything more than 2-way) done well, particularly when the size of the bass unit is much bigger than the norm, portray music much more convincingly than speakers that employ smaller bass units, or multiple arrays of such. The SP-100s use single 12" drivers and a 3-way design to phenomenal effect.

The Spendors were described as 'Impressively ugly', which is of course a kind of back-handed compliment, but most importantly, extremely satisfying in terms of their handling of all sorts of music. I've always known this, though, as I've used SP100s since 2001, then in an all-Naim system, and for the last year and a half with the system shown in my signature below.

I shall comment in more detail on the review itself, but in the meantime I would ask the question:

Does size matter with speakers, in terms of portraying music convincingly, or can just as much musical satisfaction be derived from a decent pair of small stand-mount speakers or slim floorstanders?

Over to you...

Marco.

I think it is impossible to defy the laws of physics but this also includes the size of the room as well as the speaker cabinet. The bass drivers on your SP100 are certainly big, as are the cabinets, but they don't do much below 45Hz which is probably a very good thing for two reasons:

1) It probably contributes to their overall efficiency and easy load presented to amplifiers (90dB/W/m and 8 ohm nominal impedance) that in turn enables the use of 30wpc valve power amps without any loss of control or drive in the bass whatsoever.

2) Your room is quite small, as is mine. Low bass notes form wavelengths that require a large space. Your speakers work well in your room; I'm not sure anything plunging deeper in the bass would work so well.

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Does size matter with speakers, in terms of portraying music convincingly, or can just as much musical satisfaction be derived from a decent pair of small stand-mount speakers or slim floorstanders?

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I use such narrow column floorstanding speakers with twin small drivers in each.

www.piega.ch TS5.

They also go down to 45Hz, work well in my small room and I doubt that bigger would be better in there either.

Bigger is definitely better, but I do agree with Steve's comment regarding room size, and frequency load and amplifier.

Small bass drivers and cabinets just don't do low end, though my smaller Rogers Studio 1 do quite well with Bass Outlaws and such. Though they are a little too close to the rear wall at the moment.

I currently run my Kef R107 with the LF cut off at either 50hz or 35hz, due to the amplifier I am currently using not having the control with the cut off at 25hz or 18hz. With the amp I currently use (Technics SU-MA10) mid bass punch and definition is also improved with a higher LF cut off.

I quite like the look of the newest Harbeth Monitor 40. And also like speakers such as the PMC BB5 and B&W 801D, one of my preferred Demo's was of the PMC/Bryston BB5/XBB active system, I would quite happily have this installed if I had the room and money. It was far better than the Demo of the Tannoy Westminster Royal HE biggies, though they were OK they didn't seem to happy in the huge room I heard them in, with too much prominent mid band which seemed out of kilter with the low bass which I felt fell short in terms of depth compared to the R107.

Big speakers rule.

Excellent question, having spoken to many ladies over the years, some have given an objective reply, others have given an objective reply and some have just given a very philosophical reply. So it really boils down to who you ask, everyone has a different take and taste in how they like their bass to be presented. My own experience has shown me that 15" woofers will give superior bass to a pencil thin speaker, like the piega's, all of course in the right environment. At the moment i'm experimenting with 10" drivers to see if I can strike a balance in my own room avoiding any boom.

The main difference between large, medium and small speakers is surely one of scale.

In the 60s, 15 inch drivers (Goodmans in my case) were not rare. 12 inch were common in both production and D.I.Y. kits. They probably (my memory fails!) had the scale, but not the speed. Mind you, amplification wasn't that hot either until Naim and others came on the scene.

I had, until last year, both ProAc Response 3.5 and my current 4s. Both very similar in musical presentation (despite ATC bass and mid in the 4s), but the scale of the 4s offer a much 'bigger' picture, being limited only by the room boundaries

Give me big speakers any day, although I have had LS35As, Celestions, Rogers and Heybrooks among others.

The room is the most forgotten component in audio. A small space allows small drivers to perform and pressurize the room allowing for a tremendous listening experience. My wife's home office is 2.5 meters by 3 meters. My little Totem Dreamcatchers fill it with ease. At the same time, a friend's Polk RTi12 towers with multitple drivers sound congested in a room virtually the same size when I stopped by not long ago.

It's important to note that since the late 1990's, the ability of small monitors to deliver a near full listening experience has improved greatly. I owned the fine Celestion SL6si's and in reality they just don't reproduce with the same fullness as my Totem Mites, and would sound wimpy next to the Mark & Daniel Maximus -Mini I just reviewed.

I will admit to being slanted on this issue as I'm a fan monitors, plus I don't have a large space to deal in my main listening room (4mx4.5m).

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Originally Posted by Steve Toy

I think it is impossible to defy the laws of physics but this also includes the size of the room as well as the speaker cabinet. The bass drivers on your SP100 are certainly big, as are the cabinets, but they don't do much below 45Hz which is probably a very good thing for two reasons:

1) It probably contributes to their overall efficiency and easy load presented to amplifiers (90dB/W/m and 8 ohm nominal impedance) that in turn enables the use of 30wpc valve power amps without any loss of control or drive in the bass whatsoever.

2) Your room is quite small, as is mine. Low bass notes form wavelengths that require a large space. Your speakers work well in your room; I'm not sure anything plunging deeper in the bass would work so well.

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I agree with most of that and it's certainly borne out by my listening experience. One thing you certainly get with a small room when using big speakers with suitably 'grunty' amps (and they don't need to be all that powerful with the SP100s) is massive scale and dynamic impact because the room is being pressurised.

This makes for fun listening sessions as you get to 'feel' the music, especially bass frequencies, as well as hear it - and that kind of stuff makes me grin from ear to ear, but ONLY if the system is properly set-up. I shudder to think what the SP100s would do in my room sans Mana and driven by amps fed from a non-optimised mains set-up...

Also, I think the SP100s do a bit more below 45Hz (even though that's what is specified in the literature). Here's a snippet of what Chris Binns observed in Hi-fi+ :

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To begin with the Spendors possessed a snappy, tight and extremely rhythmic bottom end, with an attack and punch that could be quite un-gentlemanly when required. Sluggish? Definitely not, and with the ability to go loud and deliver decent in-room extension to about 30Hz, orchestral music had the great sense of authority and scale that makes it so believable, while well-recorded rock with real drums was just awesome.

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Oh yeah baby, bring it home to daddy! :fingers:

More thoughts on the review tomorrow... Together with my views on big 'uns vs. little 'uns.

Marco.

There are small speakers that sound better than most large speakers, including bass, for instance my Sonus Faber EAII...

Still, I want subwoofers with them, as with most floorstanders, real bass is not easily reproduced...

Floorstanders for me only quite expensive ones, otherwise you get a big resonant box with a shity crossover, and bad bass, of course...

My Riga speakers are open baffle fullrange drivers with add-on supertweeters and subwoofer, the best home sound I have heard...

In the 70's and 80's sealed enclosure and large ( 12 or even 15 inch) drivers were the norm, with a few exceptions, of course.

In the 90's, things started to change, and the demand for more aesthetically friendly boxes, saw the introduction of narrow baffles, often ported and with an array of drivers to take care of the bass ( for example Mission 753).

Other manufacturers ( like KEF), used different techniques to great effect, such as the " interport coupled cavity " or transmission lines ( like Castle ).

http://www.kef.com/history/1990_2/re.../refthree2.asp
http://www.castle.uk.com/classic_howard.htm


So, to answer the question, yes, small(ish) drivers, can be used to generate low end, it all depends in the way they're used

Personally I prefer small speakers with small bass drivers. Over the years I've had many pairs of floorstanders and stand-mounts and smaller speakers always seem more cohesive and snappy. Sure, it's great to have thundering lows (if you don't live in a flat) but it always seems at the expense of speed. That's not to say that small speakers can't do low bass of course, mine still impress me with their ability of depth and they go deeper than a few floorstanders I've owned.

Ok so this could be due to their level (i.e. £2k stand-mounts are going to trounce £600 floorstanders) in the hi-fi chain and it proves that small can go low, but it's costly. I however would always choose speed, presence and detail over depth as there's not really much musical information below 50hz, where large speakers do excel is in AV applications - an application where bass really matters.

I think cohesive and snappy can be regardless of size.

Small speakers with sealed boxes, large paper coned bass drivers in sealed enclosures, amplifier choice etc, all help, as does room construction and speaker placement, plus speaker design and implementation. Many speakers are a variety of compromises for specific gains though.

My big Cerwin Vega's with 15" bass drivers have a very god turn of speed, and I also think my old Kef are reasonable, noticable with some of my "unual" electronic stuff by the likes of Ryoji Ikeda, or Bass Outlaws, I also think some three way designs can have an advantage here?

I also used to use some very snappy 18" Celestion Bass drivers when I was in my Yooth, deep and fast, and very annoying to some. Big scoops with 18" drivers such as the Cerwin Vega AB-36 can also produce some very past percussive low end at impressive levels.

I think big speakers are more about scale than bass, although big usually does bass better than small. The only caveat to this is that you must be careful not to load up your room with low-mid resonances. This can be minimised by careful positioning and room treatment.

Additional to big speakers for me are a powerful amplifier (I subscribe to the Musical Fidelity philosophy of power requirements for proper dynamic range) and - perhaps surprisingly - a subwoofer. No big speaker, however large, can do proper infra-bass like a properly designed subwoofer.

All of this might sound like I have an overbearing system but in fact it is very fast and swings huge dynamics without sounding loud until the volume is really pushing high decibels. The proof is in voice remaining natural sounding even when bass guitar and kick drum are moving serious air.

Room treatment needs attention with big speakers!

For me personally realistic music reproduction should involve all of the frequencies you can muster!
So full range floor-standers are a must to truly recreate as much as you can humanly can given room/speaker interactions/ limitations.
I would agree with Martin T, careful room measurement and placement of treatments reap rewards, as much as mains, cables and isolation do.
That said, quality stand-mounts can generate some beautifully sweet and involving sounds that are wonderfully captivating.
The small cabinets do not have to move as much air, have far less 'issues to get right!'( X/over points, driver technology, cabinet construction both in materials and design etc.), and thus the compromises that go with decent bass extension and control.
There not a major intrinisic part of the initial conceptual process.
There is an innate musicality, and intimacy that a quality 2 way stand-mount brings to the fore, in a way that even the very best floor-standers do not reproduce (their strengths lie in other areas which can be equally compelling)
I am fortunate enough to regularly sample the best of both worlds, and can provide equally valid reasons for both.
Most of my personally listening is split between some custom Micro be's and their bigger brothers the Nova Utopia.
Recently we had a pair of the Sonus Faber Amati's traded in, a truly beautiful work of art that would grace many a quality home.
It brought its own take to the musical fore when we had them playing for a week or so. A rare breed indeed.
So for this I vote for both :p, never simple is me!

Hi Tony,

Good post, and I agree with much of what you say. Maybe the best answer then is a (very) large stand-mount speaker, which gives you the scale and 'physicality' of a decent sized floor-stander, and also the 'intimacy' and 'communication skills' of a quality small stand-mount?

Such beasts are very unfashionable, I know, but I believe that you can get the best of both worlds (which you describe) with a nice big BBC-style monitor, a la SP100, or say, Harbeth Monitor 40s. And no, they don't sound like ATCs! {Giggle}

Having owned SP100s for 6 years I can tell you they do bass like a large floor-stander and also the small speaker 'thing' very well, too!

Some great posts here, chaps. I will respond to some more of the replies later.

Meanwhile, here are some 'big boy' stand-mounts to drool over (Rob can you fix this so that the images and text appear automatically? Ta!)

http://www.harbeth.com/hifispeakers/...stic/index.php

http://www.spendoraudio.com/sp100.htm

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Mr. C

Most of my personally listening is split between some custom Micro be's and their bigger brothers the Nova Utopia

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This is fascinating. One possible upgrade for me is from my current Mezzos to the Altos (I think the Novas are beyond my reach). The thing I love about the Mezzos is the all-round coherence and getting the midrange voicing right. What does the Be tweeter bring to the party and are there other benefits over the older non-Be Utopia range?

I've heard the S100's a few times and love them, they represent the best of what made the Brit speakers good all those years ago and, given a good front end and decent listening room, I can't see why most people wouldn't like them.

There's no question that big speakers, properly designed, with hundreds of watts driving them are miles better than the best 6.5" two way or smaller. They can be staggeringly loud, clear and they can give a better front to back image than smaller ones too, although the left to right is about the same.

I don't like them with small amps, but then I don't like small amps and small amps are worse as speaker size increases.

And before Steve beats me up, I'd point out that making and calibrating big passive speakers properly, takes days and that the demand for them is miniscule. The potential for ADM9s might be more than 100 times as great because everybody (except you lot on this Forum) wants smaller hi fi.

Having said all that I agree that good small speakers punch way above their weight because of their size approximating to the human head and the radiation patterns being similar and that most big speakers are pretty crap because the bottom crossover is so difficult to get right. For example even in Active form the ATC's don't have the mid range performance of ADM9s.

Ash

I agree with most of the comments by Mr C and Martin,

Carefull room positioning and such are a must, though can take ages, I went through quite a fuffle yesterday when fitting Mana Soundbases under My Kef R107.
The wife had to put up with the sitting room being out of bounds all day, while I played around with spirit levels, measuring tapes and laser pointers, all so I could get my speakers back in their original exact position after removing them for the Mana instal.
Then it was tune after tune, vocal, heavy, complex simple, subteranean bass etc etc.

I am not into sub bass systems as such, did go to buy a discounted Rel Studio once, after a lot of deliberation, just to find out it had sold the morning I decided to buy it. The wife usually comments as that sort of thing as a sign it was not meant to be.

I am a big fan of speakers with a decent frequency range, and think they can be reasonably close to the ideal of small monitor strengths with big speaker performance, Kef speakers with the head arangement, Nightingale speakers with mid and treble on open bafles etc, I feel can get close. But again the simplicity and solid construction of some small speakers can be quite captivating as MR C says.

Isolation too, hence my use of Mana, I did look into getting Townsend cradles made up, but a lack of replies to Emails, and no questions answered regarding how they may work with a design such as the Kef, left me too unsure with no knowlege, so I spent the money on a trip to Germany.
Now I have five pairs of sounbases which will fit under My Kef R107, Rogers Studio 1 and Linn Kans. Still interested in those cradles though.

Steve

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

I'd point out that making and calibrating big passive speakers properly, takes days and that the demand for them is miniscule. The potential for ADM9s might be more than 100 times as great because everybody (except you lot on this Forum) wants smaller hi fi.

Ash

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I do not dissagree with you there Ashley, I have had many small speakers too, and they have always been easier to intregrate into rooms and set up. Though my preference is either sealed or front ported small ones.

I did try smaller for a while in a couple of my systems, I have Linn Kans too. But I didn't get on well with small speakers in general, but will probably one day have a small speaker in the bedroom again?

Every so often I do catch myself looking at small PMC's, the smaller floorstanding PMC's, ATC SCM 20sl's (and old 10's), even the ADM9 did cross my mind, I have enjoyed AVI Pro 9's too. And some small Proac's.

Are you ever going to release an ADM9 with a couple of digital inputs, and a USB in the same speaker even? What about something with an 8" driver?

Ash,

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I've heard the S100's a few times and love them, they represent the best of what made the Brit speakers good all those years ago and, given a good front end and decent listening room, I can't see why most people wouldn't like them.

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The SP100s are the improved design and are even better. The new 'R' upgrade apparently raises their game even further.

I totally agree with you - I refer to the Spendors (and others like them) as 'proper' loudspeakers because they represent an era when (in general) performance mattered more than 'WAF' (Wife Acceptability Factor) or fitting in with whatever hi-fi sensibilities or fashions are in vogue.

Large BBC-style monitors were always considered the 'enthusiasts' choice, and many discerning listeners I know would use nothing else. Modern designs, such as the SP100, embrace all that was good in classic British loudspeakers from respected manufacturers, and also eradicate previous areas of weakness to form a rather potent cocktail of all-round ability.

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There's no question that big speakers, properly designed, with hundreds of watts driving them are miles better than the best 6.5" two way or smaller. They can be staggeringly loud, clear and they can give a better front to back image than smaller ones too, although the left to right is about the same.

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Experience also tells me this, so why settle for anything else if you can get away with it without upsetting domestic harmony, or care not a jot about the whims of current fashion? :)

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The potential for ADM9s might be more than 100 times as great because everybody (except you lot on this Forum) wants smaller hi fi.

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That's because we're the 'real deal'. The rest are just playing at it! ;)

Marco.

I think some of us also had the "benefit" or "curse" of large rooms in the past, I certainly did. Most houses were far bigger in the "old" days, I don't think many enthusiasts got rid of large kit because of modern developments making equipment smaller, it was more to do with each consecutive house getting smaller.

One of my old bedrooms had two windows in it (both on the same wall) and a superb view of Edinburgh Castle, it was bigger than my current sitting room. Next to it was a box/Storage room which was larger than one of my current bedrooms.
Kitchens that you could have a dinning table and settee in. Large bathrooms. Sitting rooms with enough space for three 3 seater setee's and a dining suite at the back along with wall units and sideboard. New houses are pathetic by comparison.

Both my previous sitting rooms were of a size that I felt necitated large speakers, (my last sitting room had space for thousands of records on the floor behind the settee). They were huge hard to heat rooms of brick and concrete constructing with real fireplaces. I used to look at speakers such as the Spendor BC1, Kef R105.4, and TL speakers such as my Nightingale's as compact. The 107's were compact and elegant back then too I thought (if tallish).

Most of my larger speakers looked as compact in their old enviroments as many of todays small stand mounts do in thiers, and in many of those old large rooms small speakers could just not do room filling sound. Big rooms required big systems.

Steve

Until AV and WAF spawned good reasonably priced subwoofers, I always had 3 way floorstanders, the last where a pair of KEF 104.2 bought around 1986

Since year 2000, all my speaker solutions include one or two subwoofers, first with standmounts, now with open baffle, much easier to integrate, and they do real bass, unlike most floorstanders up to budgets I cannot afford...

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Originally Posted by Lowrider

Until AV and WAF spawned good reasonably priced subwoofers, I always had 3 way floorstanders, the last where a pair of KEF 104.2 bought around 1986

Since year 2000, all my speaker solutions include one or two subwoofers, first with standmounts, now with open baffle, much easier to integrate, and they do real bass, unlike most floorstanders up to budgets I cannot afford...

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I myself though not into "Subs" do think they have a place. To be honest I should probably get one or two just because of movies.

I watch a lot of movies, and to be honest I think many of them do not have certain LF effects passed effectively to stereo mains either through processors or PCM conversion.
Too many of them seem to lack a certain oomph when via stereo. (unlike some LD's)

Properly setup subwoofers sound better than most speakers, but they rarely are properly setup...

Manufacturers suggest wrong setup, like REL, of course they will suggest high-level, to be able to sell to those that have conventional stereo systems...

Than you have to integrate speakers and subs with not adequate frequency rollout, a bad compromise, even worst, on AV systems if you dial different time delay for the speakers and subwoofer, the processor first applies delay, than mixes all channels with LFE, a mess... :doh:

If you use an active filter, AV processor (like me), or the ADM9s, or a Beringher, no time delay difference between channels, even if they are not at the same distance, two subwoofers near the front speakers, or one between them, closed box subwoofers, you cannot go wrong... :clap:

I would contend that REL's recommendation to use high level is *not* poor advice within the context of a stereo audio system. I have the option of a second preamp output to drive the REL from signal level but the high level connection helps to integrate the REL's sound seamlessly with the main speakers. This is important as I have the REL set to the lowest octave only (23Hz) with the main speakers giving good output to below 30Hz. I have plotted graphs to ensure that the overall frequency response is as flat as possible.

Because I don't use AV (I wouldn't entertain an LFE channel in my purist system) the overall setup can be properly optimised for a flat response rather than the bass hump typical of an AV system.

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I would contend that REL's recommendation to use high level is *not* poor advice within the context of a stereo audio system.

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On the contrary, it is rich, for them, to sell a lot more subwoofers... ;)

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the high level connection helps to integrate the REL's sound seamlessly with the main speakers.

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I dont call help sending the distortion of the bass made by the amplifier to the subwoofer, I call help relieving the amplifier and the speakers of playing those more difficult frequencies, with the extra advantage of making placing the speakers easier too, best possible imaging and timbre, without worrying with bass...

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the overall setup can be properly optimised for a flat response rather than the bass hump typical of an AV system

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There are bass humps and boom in the average stereo system too, the way most people place their speakers, more so with floorstanders...

Having said that, I believe you have good bass, but could have better with less difficult setup... :confused:

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Originally Posted by Lowrider

I call help relieving the amplifier and the speakers of playing those more difficult frequencies

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Ah - there is our confusion. You're talking about filtering the main feed to the L/R speakers to relieve them of reproducing deep bass, usually when the speakers are small. I don't use any filtering, my main speakers play the full range and the REL is there only to 'fill in' the lowest octave. Providing a high level feed ensures that the character of the bass through the power amp is retained, making the whole speaker system sound as one. By the way, my power amp doesn't distort even at the highest levels of playback I can sustain since there is huge headroom available.

All I said still applies, but, of course, non "ideal" setups can still work well with good gear and carefull tunning...

All power amps distort... :steam:

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Originally Posted by Lowrider

All power amps distort...

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I know that, I was originally an electronics engineer :)
I was really referring to clipping.

Steve, there will be slightly more expensive ADM9's available shortly with two optical digital inputs and using the "Best DAC in the World" as Linn are claiming for the WM8741 in something they've just announced.

The USB version uses an Audio Codec and there isn't room for that as well. Demand for it has been small.

We shan't use an 8" drive unit in a two way because the mid range always suffers and neither would it be possible to achieve the seamless integration of ADM9s as they are.

British amps are mostly underpowered, they don't have sufficient headroom for the dynamic range of many modern recordings, which is why people are always asking for advice on getting rid of boomy bass or harsh treble. Their amp is clipping.

Neither do many Loudspeakers designers realise that all the box and port do is produce a narrow band resonance that adds to what's coming from the front of the speaker to produce a "balanced" sound at the expense of accuracy. The drive unit size dictates how much actual bass it can produce just as the width of a canoe paddle dictates how fast you can make it go.

Therefore if you have a boomy two-way already trying to produce too much bass, a clipping amp putting bursts of DC into it, then a Subwoofer is going to make things worse! Especially as most of this type of Bass is time rather than amplitude related.

Interestingly some pop music's bass is made by lengthening the duration of the note to give the impression of greater volume.

However, a well designed two way with properly controlled bass will give good results with a Subwoofer if it too, has sufficient power to avoid clipping. Cabinet loading is crucial.

Bass radiates through 360 degrees so whether a port is in the front or rear of a cabinet makes no difference. Passive crossovers do because they reduce the control the amplifier has on the speaker cone. Overshoot and overhang cause boominess and also reduce mid range clarity.

Designing loudspeakers is a delicate balance act and more involved than many realise.

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

British amps are mostly underpowered, they don't have sufficient headroom for the dynamic range of many modern recordings, which is why people are always asking for advice on getting rid of boomy bass or harsh treble. Their amp is clipping.

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This is complete nonsense. It is the load that drives an amplifier into clipping. AND what clipping are you talking about voltage or current they a different and sound different and are caused by different load characteristics. It is the stupidity of some loudspeaker manufacturers over complicating design in order to achieve some aspect of "neutrality" or perceived "accuracy" creating extreme conditions for the amplifer, like trying to make it drive voltage and current 180deg out of phase with each other due to ridiculously over complex crossovers, and undersized low resistance voice coils, or creating cabinet designs that absorb so much of the work undertaken that it is miracle sometimes anything gets out. To blame British amplifier manufacturers for producing under powered amplifiers is like blaming Madonna for not having as big a breasts as Munroe, pointless and self defeating nonsense.

There are people who design horn loaded high efficiency creations that can be driven quite acceptably by half a watt!!!!!

An amplifier and a loudspeaker is a partnership, and like all partnerships unless it is empathic and not dominated by the biggest ego, you get music. It is that simple.

LOL. I'm lovin' this.

:popcorn:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

LOL. I'm lovin' this.

:popcorn:

Marco.

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Then why not contribute instead of sitting on your arse eating popcorn!

All in good time, old chap :)

I thought that I'd let the 'heavyweights' have their say first ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Then why not contribute instead of sitting on your arse eating popcorn!

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Because watching and chomping is just as much fun!

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Marco

All in good time, old chap :)

I thought that I'd let the 'heavyweights' have their say first ;)

Marco.

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I am no heavyweight, and need help... :doh:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Tony,

Good post, and I agree with much of what you say. Maybe the best answer then is a (very) large stand-mount speaker, which gives you the scale and 'physicality' of a decent sized floor-stander, and also the 'intimacy' and 'communication skills' of a quality small stand-mount?

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Hi Marco,

Again there is a good case for this standpoint as well.
Room size could be the deciding in the selection of this type of speaker for sure.
I have also explored this option too with quite surprisingly good results, sometimes I use the Focal Utopia L & R surround speaker, don't let the surround speaker tag fool you.
This a genuine stereo 'Full range' stand-mount speaker, basically a Micro Utopia with another midrange 6.5" driver coupled with a 10" bass driver to cater for the lower frequencies, which is also reversible for room positions.
It has exceptional dispersion characteristics, coupled with the Be tweeter.
Again I found with these, that beautifully fluidic and insightfully musical presentation that good stand mounts make. This time coupled with realistic bass extension and serious texture and layering in the sound.

Martin,
The differences are fairly marked between the 2 tweeters, as they are with the rest of the unit, cabinet construction, driver materials and x/over configuration. They are very different animal!
Were you the gent that asked us about the Altos' at the Heathrow show last September btw?
Tony.


http://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/images/L_Rbasic1.jpg

Richard. 12 years ago we appeared at the then Heathrow Penta with a device that showed the continuous average power into, in this case B&W 803's, the peak power and a red light every time a power amp clipped. This was with a variety of over the counter CD's, nothing out of the ordinary.

The continuous requirement for an average to slightly above average, domestic listening level was (depending on program material; Classical or Pop) between 1/4 and 1/2 a Watt and the peaks, and there were hundreds of them, ran to hundreds of Watts.

What we showed to nearly all the Press, who appeared to understand, was that to listen at normal levels with average loudspeakers you needed amplifier capable of at least 300 watt peaks if clipping was to be avoided. Amplifiers are clipping before most people realise and it profoundly affects clarity as well as what I've described above in my previous posting.

If you visit www.avihifi.com you'll see that we design both speakers and amplifiers and that we've had many awards for much of it over the years.

Horn loudspeakers were ousted thirty years ago by direct radiating types from Kef, B&W and the BBC spin offs, and this was because they produce some of the most fatiguing distortions of all. About 15 times as much as a direct radiator.

The reason so many people loved our now discontinued Lab Series Integrated was that it had extremely low distortion and delivered 200wpc into 8 Ohms.

So Richard not only am I not talking nonsense but I will happily prove everything I've said if you'd care to visit my factory.

The Bass Amps in the ADM9's are 250 watts and produce 500 watt peaks and this is one of many reasons why they have such an edge over separates systems costing much more.

I've a reputation for being blunt and to the point and for preferring science to alternative bullshit and this puts me at odds with lots of people in hi fi. However I do hope that you'll listen to and think about the message and try to ignore the method of delivery. I intend no malice and I do have experts on hand to help me get my facts right.

And it might be fun to get some interesting discussions going on this Forum.

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

I don't think it's very easy to tell whether someone is aggressive unless you know him and you can see him.

I've a reputation for being blunt and to the point and for preferring science to alternative bullshit and this puts me at odds with lots of people in hi fi. However I do hope that you'll listen to and think about the message and try to ignore the method of delivery. I intend no malice and I do have experts on hand to help me get my facts right.

And it might be fun to get some interesting discussions going on this Forum.

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I thoroughly agree with everything Ashley has said here, especially this bit:

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

And it might be fun to get some interesting discussions going on this Forum.

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:)

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

Bass radiates through 360 degrees so whether a port is in the front or rear of a cabinet makes no difference. Passive crossovers do because they reduce the control the amplifier has on the speaker cone. Overshoot and overhang cause boominess and also reduce mid range clarity.

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My own opinion was that some front ported speakers can be easier to integrate into smaller rooms and such? And could be positioned close to walls without as much detrimental effect as a rear port would cause?

Of course this would I guess also be variable depending on what frequency the port is tuned to and room size would it not?

Is bass radiation/direction not also dependent on frequency and cabinet and distance and such, is there not differences between upper mid bass and lower bass?

Steve

It's not so much the frequency as the duration, the longer the revolting boom lasts the more likely it is to set the room off.

As the frequency of the sound being reproduced rises so the speaker becomes more directional. Most Booms that cause aggro are around 60Hz.

If you place a speaker against a wall you restrict it's radiation to 180 instead of 360 degrees and you hear more bass.

If you position a speaker away from a wall you hear not only the sound coming from the speaker but also what hits the back wall and arrives slightly later. Because it's out of phase with the forward radiation, it has a cancelling effect over a narrow band of frequencies and a peaking up an Octave above. Moving the speaker backwards and forwards enables you to tune this to taste.

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Originally Posted by Richard

It is the load that drives an amplifier into clipping. AND what clipping are you talking about voltage or current they a different and sound different and are caused by different load characteristics. It is the stupidity of some loudspeaker manufacturers over complicating design in order to achieve some aspect of "neutrality" or perceived "accuracy" creating extreme conditions for the amplifer, like trying to make it drive voltage and current 180deg out of phase with each other due to ridiculously over complex crossovers, and undersized low resistance voice coils, or creating cabinet designs that absorb so much of the work undertaken that it is miracle sometimes anything gets out. To blame British amplifier manufacturers for producing under powered amplifiers is like blaming Madonna for not having as big a breasts as Munroe, pointless and self defeating nonsense.

There are people who design horn loaded high efficiency creations that can be driven quite acceptably by half a watt!!!!!

An amplifier and a loudspeaker is a partnership, and like all partnerships unless it is empathic and not dominated by the biggest ego, you get music. It is that simple.

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Some good points,

My Technics clips badly at low volume with music with extended LF and during some movies, I have to adjust the Kef LF cut off for reasonable levels to be achieved at the expense of LF extension. (maybe due to the kef creating extreme conditions?)

When I hook up my 103db sensitivity speakers with their 15" bass drivers to the Technics amp, I have no such problems with clipping at high volume with music containing extended LF content.

I also seem to get an extra notch of volume before clipping if I change from VDH speaker cable to Naim Nac 5 with the Technics and Kef R107?

Steve

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Originally Posted by Mr. C

Were you the gent that asked us about the Altos' at the Heathrow show last September btw?

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Yes Tony, that was me. I hadn't made the connection! Where are you based, by the way? I'm quite serious about a potential upgrade but I'll take some convincing that the Altos are as big a step up from the Mezzos as you make out (take it as a challenge). Perhaps I should come and have a listen?

BTW, my system is posted in The Gallery as Finchampstead System if you care to comment.

Well, I love transmission lines. Mine were designed around scientific principles and were then changed significantly until I was happy with the sound. Each uses 4 5 inch mid / bass units, the effective length of the enclosure is 1/4 of a wavelength of 32 Hz, about 8 feet from memory. The bass port is at the front, the cabinets have some stuffing in them as the bass was overpowering with the first iteration. The efficiency is quite startling, don't know how many db but they take a tiny amount of driving when compared to any other speaker I have tried. I want to design a transmission line enclosure that uses a single 12 inch bass driver with a well matched mid and tweeter but can't see me getting the time in the immediate future. The previous comments about speakers and the rooms that they are in are spot on in my experience. The biggest change to acoustics I have ever experienced was when we went from carpet to laminate flooring, it totally changed everything. I reckon that speakers and the room they are in make the biggest difference to any system. There that should stir up some debate :-)

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

I don't think it's very easy to tell whether someone is aggressive unless you know him and you can see him.

I've a reputation for being blunt and to the point and for preferring science to alternative bullshit and this puts me at odds with lots of people in hi fi. However I do hope that you'll listen to and think about the message and try to ignore the method of delivery. I intend no malice and I do have experts on hand to help me get my facts right.

And it might be fun to get some interesting discussions going on this Forum.

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I agree with your first statement, and I think that this thread has had several interesting points raised...

But it is not easy to swallow that you, and others, call bullshit, delusion, idiocy, etc, to all different opinions, there is no perfect solution, all have compromises, yours is quite pratical, but far from state of the art, others have their own problems, we all should be open minded, including you, blasting the others doesnt make you better, on the contrary, people wont be willing to give your products a chance...

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Originally Posted by MartinT

Yes Tony, that was me. I hadn't made the connection! Where are you based, by the way? I'm quite serious about a potential upgrade but I'll take some convincing that the Altos are as big a step up from the Mezzos as you make out (take it as a challenge). Perhaps I should come and have a listen?

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Martin,

As we discussed at the show we are based in Worcestershire near the beautiful Malvern Hills.
We would be delighted to demonstrate the Alto's to their fullest potential for you without hesitation thus giving you all the information you need to make a choice.
Nice looking system Martin, I took have personally been an owner of Chord amplifiers ( 1200c & 1200e's) both fine pieces of equipment.
I noticed you run a sub Martin, I have seen this with Mezzo Utopia before.
So far the only time we have used subwoofers with Alto's is purely for home cinema systems (we also carry the sub Utopia too).
Clients find their bass extension most satisfactory!
Regards Tony

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Originally Posted by Mr. C

Hi Marco,

Again there is a good case for this standpoint as well.
Room size could be the deciding factor in the selection of this type of speaker for sure.
I have also explored this option too with quite surprisingly good results, sometimes I use the Focal Utopia L & R surround speaker, don't let the surround speaker tag fool you.
This a genuine stereo 'Full range' stand-mount speaker, basically a Micro Utopia with another midrange 6.5" driver coupled with a 10" bass driver to cater for the lower frequencies, which is also reversible for room positions.
It has exceptional dispersion characteristics, coupled with the Be tweeter.
Again I found with these, that beautifully fluidic and insightfully musical presentation that good stand mounts make. This time coupled with realistic bass extension and serious texture and layering in the sound.

http://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/images/L_Rbasic1.jpg

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Hi Tony,

They look great, and very similar to the Micro Utopias I've heard a few times and liked very much. In the bass I'm not quite sure they deliver the scale and sheer weight of the Spendors, but they certainly get the rhythm and timing aspect spot on, as well as the 'texture' and 'layering' you refer to.

I really do feel, and extensive listening experience suggests this, that a large (or very large) properly designed stand-mount design employing large drive units gives the best of both worlds in terms of what is desirable in the musical presentation of a loudspeaker. Every time I've heard a good 'big'-un' in that respect I've never failed to be impressed. Modern designs of that ilk from the likes of Spendor and Harbeth (and sometimes PMC and ATC) just get it so right to my ears. For realistic bass, outside of using some monstrous-sized floor-stander, you can't beat a nice 12 or 15-inch drive unit executed in a stand-mount design the way those companies know how.

I'd love a return to the days when people weren't afraid of using large stand-mount speakers or indeed large, quality, speakers of any description, providing the room and/or set-up allows. Personally, I'm fed up with seeing yet another boring unoriginal variation of the ubiquitous 'slim floor-stander' using arrays of 6.5" bass drivers (or variations thereof) with physical dimensions designed simply to appease the aesthetic sensibilities of 'the other half' - it's been done to death. I think it's high time some enthusiasts were less influenced by WAF and more influenced by ultimate performance and the realistic rendition of their favourite music! Just who is it that wears the pants, I wonder? ;)

There's no doubt that 12 or 15" inch bass units (in a well implemented design) do it best, and with that you just can't have slim cabinets. Bring back the 70s, I say! :lol:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

Richard. 12 years ago we appeared at the then Heathrow Penta with a device that showed the continuous average power into, in this case B&W 803's, the peak power and a red light every time a power amp clipped. This was with a variety of over the counter CD's, nothing out of the ordinary.

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A real and accurate machine for that purpose doesn't exist, it is all marketing bull**** per usual. Who designed it, what was its topology, what was it measuring - current drain - voltage swing? Far too simplistic and just for pulling the wool over the eyes of customers and trying to justify a false premise. Even using an oscilloscope it has to be read in conjunction with a distortion analyser, minimum!!, and a digital spectrum analyser wouldn't go amiss, and even that is very much down to interpretation. Your playng with AC not DC, it is frequency (and load) dependent, so what the hell is a red LED showing, in real terms next to nothing.

Are you a marketing man or a technical man? flashing red lights with a marketing man standing behind them makes good theatre and amusement, but reality, nah!

Do you know what the difference is between voltage clipping and current clipping?

Hi Marco,

Quite possibly they won't 'Fill the room' in the same way as the Splendors I would agree. However they do produce some pretty deep, taut and real sounding textured bass with lovely presence and depth.
They are a bit of a tricky load, dipping to low 3's around 90hz region, so a stiff amp helps here! With the right equipment and room though, it is possible to achieve a measured 28.8hz in UK living room. Which in a lot of cases is more than enough for a lot of folk!
Again it is all horses for courses, some people refuse to listen to anything less than a full range floor-stander, others are more than happy with the stand-mount.
From our point of view the only one which is right, is the one the customer relates too and is happy with. (However there a huge choice out there!)
Regards Tony

I still think that room size consideration is undervalued by folks choosing speakers. I've had a wide variety of speakers all of varying sizes, but I've found that if a pair of speakers is chosen with a priority to room size the results are usually stronger than choosing for outright price / review / cabinet size etc etc. No doubt if my next house has a larger listening room then a change of speakers may be necessary, but having said that I may try a sub first as I couldn't bear to part with my Revels. However, they may sound nowhere near as cohesive in a larger room and I won't know that until I try.

As far as subs go, I had an MJ Acoustics Pro100 a while back which performed really well with music - better in fact than I had anticipated. I bought it for movies really (boy oh boy did it rumble!) as my MartinLogans had crummy bass output, but I had it running for music as well. Hardly needed any gain at all, in fact almost all of the controls were set near 0, something that a lot of folk don't seem to realise with a sub - less is more.

It had to go when my nice neighbours (whom were music lovers and life lovers) were replaced by a fat, grumpy moaner who works for the post office and has never said a good word about anything or anyone.