Does size matter?

Has anyone else read the review of the Spendor SP-100R in this month's Hi-fi+ ?

It makes very interesting reading, and the reviewer, Chris Binns, touches on a point that I've always maintained...namely that it's impossible to get a realistic sound from small boxes. Scale and impact is very important to the convincing portrayal of music, especially anything that requires convincing bass to convey the musical message. I also believe that multiple-driver speakers (anything more than 2-way) done well, particularly when the size of the bass unit is much bigger than the norm, portray music much more convincingly than speakers that employ smaller bass units, or multiple arrays of such. The SP-100s use single 12" drivers and a 3-way design to phenomenal effect.

The Spendors were described as 'Impressively ugly', which is of course a kind of back-handed compliment, but most importantly, extremely satisfying in terms of their handling of all sorts of music. I've always known this, though, as I've used SP100s since 2001, then in an all-Naim system, and for the last year and a half with the system shown in my signature below.

I shall comment in more detail on the review itself, but in the meantime I would ask the question:

Does size matter with speakers, in terms of portraying music convincingly, or can just as much musical satisfaction be derived from a decent pair of small stand-mount speakers or slim floorstanders?

Over to you...

Marco.

I think it is impossible to defy the laws of physics but this also includes the size of the room as well as the speaker cabinet. The bass drivers on your SP100 are certainly big, as are the cabinets, but they don't do much below 45Hz which is probably a very good thing for two reasons:

1) It probably contributes to their overall efficiency and easy load presented to amplifiers (90dB/W/m and 8 ohm nominal impedance) that in turn enables the use of 30wpc valve power amps without any loss of control or drive in the bass whatsoever.

2) Your room is quite small, as is mine. Low bass notes form wavelengths that require a large space. Your speakers work well in your room; I'm not sure anything plunging deeper in the bass would work so well.

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Does size matter with speakers, in terms of portraying music convincingly, or can just as much musical satisfaction be derived from a decent pair of small stand-mount speakers or slim floorstanders?

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I use such narrow column floorstanding speakers with twin small drivers in each.

www.piega.ch TS5.

They also go down to 45Hz, work well in my small room and I doubt that bigger would be better in there either.

Bigger is definitely better, but I do agree with Steve's comment regarding room size, and frequency load and amplifier.

Small bass drivers and cabinets just don't do low end, though my smaller Rogers Studio 1 do quite well with Bass Outlaws and such. Though they are a little too close to the rear wall at the moment.

I currently run my Kef R107 with the LF cut off at either 50hz or 35hz, due to the amplifier I am currently using not having the control with the cut off at 25hz or 18hz. With the amp I currently use (Technics SU-MA10) mid bass punch and definition is also improved with a higher LF cut off.

I quite like the look of the newest Harbeth Monitor 40. And also like speakers such as the PMC BB5 and B&W 801D, one of my preferred Demo's was of the PMC/Bryston BB5/XBB active system, I would quite happily have this installed if I had the room and money. It was far better than the Demo of the Tannoy Westminster Royal HE biggies, though they were OK they didn't seem to happy in the huge room I heard them in, with too much prominent mid band which seemed out of kilter with the low bass which I felt fell short in terms of depth compared to the R107.

Big speakers rule.

Excellent question, having spoken to many ladies over the years, some have given an objective reply, others have given an objective reply and some have just given a very philosophical reply. So it really boils down to who you ask, everyone has a different take and taste in how they like their bass to be presented. My own experience has shown me that 15" woofers will give superior bass to a pencil thin speaker, like the piega's, all of course in the right environment. At the moment i'm experimenting with 10" drivers to see if I can strike a balance in my own room avoiding any boom.

The main difference between large, medium and small speakers is surely one of scale.

In the 60s, 15 inch drivers (Goodmans in my case) were not rare. 12 inch were common in both production and D.I.Y. kits. They probably (my memory fails!) had the scale, but not the speed. Mind you, amplification wasn't that hot either until Naim and others came on the scene.

I had, until last year, both ProAc Response 3.5 and my current 4s. Both very similar in musical presentation (despite ATC bass and mid in the 4s), but the scale of the 4s offer a much 'bigger' picture, being limited only by the room boundaries

Give me big speakers any day, although I have had LS35As, Celestions, Rogers and Heybrooks among others.

The room is the most forgotten component in audio. A small space allows small drivers to perform and pressurize the room allowing for a tremendous listening experience. My wife's home office is 2.5 meters by 3 meters. My little Totem Dreamcatchers fill it with ease. At the same time, a friend's Polk RTi12 towers with multitple drivers sound congested in a room virtually the same size when I stopped by not long ago.

It's important to note that since the late 1990's, the ability of small monitors to deliver a near full listening experience has improved greatly. I owned the fine Celestion SL6si's and in reality they just don't reproduce with the same fullness as my Totem Mites, and would sound wimpy next to the Mark & Daniel Maximus -Mini I just reviewed.

I will admit to being slanted on this issue as I'm a fan monitors, plus I don't have a large space to deal in my main listening room (4mx4.5m).

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Originally Posted by Steve Toy

I think it is impossible to defy the laws of physics but this also includes the size of the room as well as the speaker cabinet. The bass drivers on your SP100 are certainly big, as are the cabinets, but they don't do much below 45Hz which is probably a very good thing for two reasons:

1) It probably contributes to their overall efficiency and easy load presented to amplifiers (90dB/W/m and 8 ohm nominal impedance) that in turn enables the use of 30wpc valve power amps without any loss of control or drive in the bass whatsoever.

2) Your room is quite small, as is mine. Low bass notes form wavelengths that require a large space. Your speakers work well in your room; I'm not sure anything plunging deeper in the bass would work so well.

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I agree with most of that and it's certainly borne out by my listening experience. One thing you certainly get with a small room when using big speakers with suitably 'grunty' amps (and they don't need to be all that powerful with the SP100s) is massive scale and dynamic impact because the room is being pressurised.

This makes for fun listening sessions as you get to 'feel' the music, especially bass frequencies, as well as hear it - and that kind of stuff makes me grin from ear to ear, but ONLY if the system is properly set-up. I shudder to think what the SP100s would do in my room sans Mana and driven by amps fed from a non-optimised mains set-up...

Also, I think the SP100s do a bit more below 45Hz (even though that's what is specified in the literature). Here's a snippet of what Chris Binns observed in Hi-fi+ :

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To begin with the Spendors possessed a snappy, tight and extremely rhythmic bottom end, with an attack and punch that could be quite un-gentlemanly when required. Sluggish? Definitely not, and with the ability to go loud and deliver decent in-room extension to about 30Hz, orchestral music had the great sense of authority and scale that makes it so believable, while well-recorded rock with real drums was just awesome.

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Oh yeah baby, bring it home to daddy! :fingers:

More thoughts on the review tomorrow... Together with my views on big 'uns vs. little 'uns.

Marco.

There are small speakers that sound better than most large speakers, including bass, for instance my Sonus Faber EAII...

Still, I want subwoofers with them, as with most floorstanders, real bass is not easily reproduced...

Floorstanders for me only quite expensive ones, otherwise you get a big resonant box with a shity crossover, and bad bass, of course...

My Riga speakers are open baffle fullrange drivers with add-on supertweeters and subwoofer, the best home sound I have heard...

In the 70's and 80's sealed enclosure and large ( 12 or even 15 inch) drivers were the norm, with a few exceptions, of course.

In the 90's, things started to change, and the demand for more aesthetically friendly boxes, saw the introduction of narrow baffles, often ported and with an array of drivers to take care of the bass ( for example Mission 753).

Other manufacturers ( like KEF), used different techniques to great effect, such as the " interport coupled cavity " or transmission lines ( like Castle ).

http://www.kef.com/history/1990_2/re.../refthree2.asp
http://www.castle.uk.com/classic_howard.htm


So, to answer the question, yes, small(ish) drivers, can be used to generate low end, it all depends in the way they're used

Personally I prefer small speakers with small bass drivers. Over the years I've had many pairs of floorstanders and stand-mounts and smaller speakers always seem more cohesive and snappy. Sure, it's great to have thundering lows (if you don't live in a flat) but it always seems at the expense of speed. That's not to say that small speakers can't do low bass of course, mine still impress me with their ability of depth and they go deeper than a few floorstanders I've owned.

Ok so this could be due to their level (i.e. £2k stand-mounts are going to trounce £600 floorstanders) in the hi-fi chain and it proves that small can go low, but it's costly. I however would always choose speed, presence and detail over depth as there's not really much musical information below 50hz, where large speakers do excel is in AV applications - an application where bass really matters.