The modified SL-1200: understanding the dynamics of 'synergy'....

[Please note that the following discussion has been carried over from elsewhere]


Btw, Chris (panteg),

I've just read this over on pfm on the needle drops thread:

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And to be honest i think i've kidding myself as to this deck's abilities and perhaps have been chasing fool's gold , lol

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I don't think that's the case at all. It's far more likely that the synergy isn't right at the moment with your 1210, whereas it is with your QL1, as it's a 'sorted' all-in-one solution. Although arguably an inferior T/T, with your QL1, everything is pulling successfully together in the one direction, making its inherent faults less obvious, and in turn creating a sound you enjoy. I'm afraid at the moment your 1210 isn't doing that, as the ingredients are wrong.

No offence, but I don't think it's any coincidence that the dissatisfaction with your 1210 has coincided with your purchase of the SME.............

Sorry, but I'm not a big fan of SME magnesium tonearms, feeling that they stifle the life out of music, unless certain 'toppy' sounding cartridges are used to ameliorate their rather dull and bass-heavy presentation. Most SME arms, quite simply, are over-damped, due to their use of magnesium for the armtube *and* headshell.

You'd get a shock if you compared your 309 to a Series M2, with its (instead) stainless steel armtube and magnesium headshell, which is a combination that works, sonically and musically, even though it doesn't measure as well. The M2 has a lighter, more open and airy presentation. Read the design principles:

http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/Series-M2-1331.shtml

The problem is, magnesium is a great material for damping resonances (killing them near dead, in fact), so it's fantastic stuff for making a headshell from, where damping is required most and where it is extremely effective (think Max Townsend designs here, with the trough at the point of the headshell), but it's less ideal as a material from which to construct an armtube, as heavily damping both the headshell and the armtube (with the use of magnesium) can over-egg the pudding, which with the wrong cartridge, could leave you with a 'thick', 'over-finessed', somewhat lacklustre sound.

Trust me, from experience, I know what I'm talking about.

Apologies, but I have to be honest. I'm almost certain that if you'd gone instead for the Jelco, you'd be very happy now with your 1210, and also considerably better off, financially! ;)

I'd seriously think about selling your 309 and buying either a Series M2 (if you want to stick with the SME badge) or a Jelco SA-750 - or even better, saving up for a Funk Firm FX-R!

All said with the best of intentions, dude.

Marco.

P.S I also think at some point I should pop round to your place, bring my Techy along, and we can have a mini-bake off. I'm sure that would 'refocus' your thoughts as to just how good a modded 1210 can sound, and it'd be good to meet up properly, too! :cool:

Hi Marco

I agree to a point , but why would the Jelco be better on my Techie ? could it be that it adds some richness and colour ,and hides the over the top bass inherent in the 1210 .

I don't think the SME arm is to blame at all ! i just think it reveals any weakness in whatever its partnered with !

Its not lacking in life so much , just things like the over the top bass and bland tonality , with the DL160 sounding very rich ! The latter was not so noticeable and being plummy in the bass ,didn't help .


But your right in a way , get the combination of arm/cart and have sonic bliss:)
I haven't given up on this deck either ;) I'm just questioning its weakness that's all , i still think with the right cartridge my 1210/309 can do it for me :)

Oh and much though i love my QL1 it is not actually superior to my 1210 , i think i expect so much from my 1210/309 , the QL1 just sounds better than i expected but is still a modest TT .

That's a real nice offer Marco , i wouldn't mind a visit to Marco tower's , my set up is less than ideal for shared listening , being in the attic , though it looks a little like your own listening room , before i got married it was my listening room but now doubles up as the main bedroom , wifey tolerates me having a stereo but is far from happy about it being in here , but its still the best room in the house and with 4 cat's too (don't trust the little buggar's) it will have to suffice.

Hi Chris,

First of all, please understand (as I think you do anyway) that I'm trying to help, not demean your choices. In my opinion, you've lost the way a little bit with the mods you've done to your Techy, so this exchange is simply about trying to get you back on the right track - at the end of the day though, what you choose to do is up to you :)

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I agree to a point , but why would the Jelco be better on my Techie ? could it be that it adds some richness and colour ,and hides the over the top bass inherent in the 1210 .

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First of all, "over the top bass" isn't inherent in the 1210; it is simply that way if the ingredients aren't right - read as: the sonic synergy between its constituent parts. I'll deal with this in more detail further on.

To answer your question, however, it's because I think that the Jelco would synergise better, sonically, with with the cartridge you're using and also would more likely produce a sound you prefer in the long term. It's got nothing to do with adding "richness and colour", as that's intrinsically not how the Jelco sounds, although it can sound that way with the wrong choice of cartridge.

But let's take the Jelco right out of the equation, as I don't want it to come across as if I'm using that as an example because it's the arm I have. I'm convinced that if you heard an SME Series M2 on your deck that you'd prefer it to your 309. See my previous post for an explanation.

Did you read what I wrote about magnesium and its damping factor vs. stainless steel armtubes, etc?

The Funk Firm FX-R is another (albeit more expensive) candidate, which I honestly feel would piss all over ANY SME. In fact, I know of a magazine editor who has discovered precisely that ;)

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I don't think the SME arm is to blame at all ! i just think it reveals any weakness in whatever its partnered with !

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Well, that's one way to look at it, but it's not what I think is going on. Of course, until I actually hear your T/T, I can only guess, but I have a lot of experience in this area, so let's just say that until I do hear it, I strongly suspect what's happening is a lack of synergy.

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Its not lacking in life so much , just things like the over the top bass and bland tonality , with the DL160 sounding very rich ! The latter was not so noticeable and being plummy in the bass ,didn't help .

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You see that's what's ringing alarm bells.... A properly sorted (or to coin a phrase from DC, 'holistically matched') modified Techy doesn't have "over the top bass" or "bland tonality". It is simply very accurate, and will thus showcase any deficiencies in the partnering ancillaries. Neither my T/T nor Martin Taylor's sounds that way - quite the opposite in fact - so something is wrong, mate. And experience points the finger at the SME.

If when I hear your deck, that proves not to be the case, then I'll gladly hold my hands up and admit that I was wrong, but I suspect not.

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But your right in a way , get the combination of arm/cart and have sonic bliss:)
I haven't given up on this deck either ;) I'm just questioning its weakness that's all , i still think with the right cartridge my 1210/309 can do it for me :)

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I would agree. Every T/T has its weaknesses, a modded Techy included, but quite simply its weaknesses are not what you describe. What you're describing instead is the weakenesses of your 1210 in its current iteration, not the intrinsic weaknesses of the 1210 itself. All it will take for you to realise this is when you compare your T/T to another modded Techy which, sonically (and musically), better optimises the sum of its parts.

There's no doubt that a better and more compatable cartridge will help things, but experience tells me that you'll never totally eradicate the SME's sonic signature (bass heavy and over-damped), as that is inherent in its design. All you can do is 'window-dress' the effect as best as you can, through judicious cartridge choice.

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Oh and much though i love my QL1 it is not actually superior to my 1210 , i think i expect so much from my 1210/309 , the QL1 just sounds better than i expected but is still a modest TT .

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Indeed, but the crucial thing is that you're enjoying music more on your QL1, than on your 1210, or have I got that wrong? And that simply should not be happening. I've explained though why I think it is.

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That's a real nice offer Marco , i wouldn't mind a visit to Marco tower's , my set up is less than ideal for shared listening , being in the attic , though it looks a little like your own listening room , before i got married it was my listening room but now doubles up as the main bedroom , wifey tolerates me having a stereo but is far from happy about it being in here , but its still the best room in the house and with 4 cat's too (don't trust the little buggar's) it will have to suffice.

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Lol - I know exactly what you mean! My room may be on the small side, but it does function very well, due to the fact that the walls are extremely solid and it has an irregular shape (with oak beams breaking up reflections).

I think what we need to do is arrange for you to come over for a sesh, and bring your 1210 with you, so I can hear what's going on with it in a familiar system. You will also have the opportunity to compare your deck with mine, and hopefully see where I'm coming from with the modification route I've taken - and we can hopefully BOTH learn from the experience :cool:

I will repeat again though, that my criticism of the SME is intended to be entirely constructive and designed to help, as I do think you need some help, so please take it that way, Chris, and not as an attack on your personal choices.

Marco.

P.S I'll move all off-topic posts to a separate thread later.

Unfortunately, I can't read this very page because my work network feels it carries inappropriate discussion of weapons - I'm not even joking either!

(I'll have a look when I get home)

Eh? LOL! That's madness!! :lol:

Marco.

Yeah, I know - barking - I'm home now though :).

"Honey, I'm home....!" A bit like that? :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

Hey, Chris, I hope you aren't off crying in your soup, mate. I didn't mean it, honest! ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hey, Chris, I hope you aren't off crying in your soup, mate. I didn't mean it, honest! ;)

Marco.

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Hi Marco

No not at all , just back from the pub :cool:

Interesting stuff and perhaps it makes a nice change to saying " my 1210 is god's gift and all that ;)

But i don't agree about the SME arm's Marco , i did have a 310 mounted on my Voyd .5 you see and i also remember how certain LP's sounded with that combination :)

Like i said i haven't given up on this deck , not by a long shot :) i still think its a great TT you know , the AT is just my little experiment :mental: , it deserves something far better i know .

Its surely a good thing to talk about the negative's so to speak! As to imply that the my 1210 is perfect and that the SME 309 is actually letting the side down is rather questionable is it not ?

Hi Chris,

Glad you're still speaking to me! :eyebrows:

Yup, no turntable is perfect, including the Techy modified (or otherwise), so yes, it's good to discuss its weaknesses as well as its strengths. It's just that the weaknesses you describe are not what I believe to be inherent in its design, as I certainly don't experience myself what you describe.

If you were to say that you found, in particular, a modified Techy, a little 'clinical' and 'master tape-like' (or perhaps that's what you mean by "bland tonality"?) lacking the 'analogue warmth' of some T/Ts, particularly most belt-drives, and that it was a bit too revealing - then I'd say yes, that's fair criticism, and I get where you're coming from (and incidentally, there's nothing wrong with liking a bit of coloration!) ;)

Anyway, the above traits, I believe, are simply a by-product of its neutrality, brought about as a result of the 1210's (incredibly) accurate speed stability. But in my experience it does not have "overbearing bass" unless something is amiss, and you know what I believe as being largely the culprit (although a cartridge change will undoubtedly help matters enormously).

Returning to the "bland tonality" thing, I know exactly where you're coming from - and you will get that effect if the 'ingredients' are wrong, specifically the arm/cartridge combination. But the mat/feet/PSU 'relationship', in terms of sonic synergy, is also equally as important, as are the T/T's other constituent parts, which make up the 'whole', that one hears in the final analysis.

Because a judiciously modified 1200/1210 is so sonically neutral (at least in my opinion it is), it thus acts as a neutral platform from which to showcase the inherent characteristics of the partnering ancillaries, particularly those of the arm and cartridge. And so if any of those items exhbit "bland tonality", "overbearing bass", or if the set-up isn't right, then that is precisely what you will hear.

Furthermore, the Techy (acting as a motor unit only), when appropriately modified, does not colour the sound, with a pleasing euphony, in the way of certain popular belt-drive T/Ts. And so when comparing it to those T/Ts, the sound it produces can (until your ears adjust) appear as somewhat 'bland', and you think to yourself: something is missing? But it's only 'bland' in the sense that someone who likes ketchup on his chips will find the taste 'bland', minus the flavouring effect of his favourite condiment..............

'Gourmets' will thus always prefer the taste of the real potato, unsullied by artificial additives - and so it is, I believe, with a judiciously modified Techie versus most popular belt-drive T/Ts.

Do you see what I'm getting at? :)

The problem is, however, when modifying any turntable (the Techy being no exception), and thus departing from its original design, you have to be careful not to upset the dynamics of the synergy existing between its constituent parts. And so it's no use upgrading one part, if in doing so it only serves to highlight the deficiencies in another, and so on and so forth....

You have to understand what it is you want to achieve from day one, know how to go about it, and see the process through to the end. In effect, have a plan of action from the beginning, and not simply tackle the process 'willy-nilly', as it were.

And to do that successfully, it requires assessing the whole modification procedure, again I will borrow DC's favourite phrase, 'holistically', to ensure that any modifications carried out are in sympathy both with each other, and crucially, also with the turntable's original design.

Otherwise, all you're left with is a collection of disparate parts, pulling sonically in opposite directions, and anything but synergy, with the inevitable disappointment in performance, and subsequently in one's musical enjoyment. And *that*, unfortunately, is what I think is happening now with your 1210. But it can be fixed!

My apologies for the long post, but I think it's very important that this issue is tackled in detail, not just for your potential benefit, but also that of others who own a modded Techy and may be harbouring similar concerns.

Marco.