Today i heard a great system

[chris@panteg]

At the kind invitation of Tony (Coherent systems) i spent an afternoon listening to some great music on a truly fantastic system .

Some of which with his own involvement as Tony is an accomplished drummer ! And that's an understatement as he's pretty bloody good in fact .

The system was ...

Bel Canto CD transport and DAC

Belles pre and power (valve/hybrid)

Cabasse stand mount's

With some high quality downloads using his own software .

I don't know quite how to put this , but the system quite literally blew me away , it made what i use at home seem like a mickey mouse set up !

I'm not sure if i have ever heard in my life a set up than truly conveys as realistic a portrayal of real musicians performing as this ' and yet it was only a couple of rungs up the ladder so to speak , Tony does some serious kit !

The sheer explosive power and dynamics of this system was astonishing and yet it was never shrill or aggressive like some systems i can think of .

Tony feels that high quality cables are critical to getting the best out of the kit he uses, and to this end he makes his own ! Using the best materials available , he's let me try DC lead to use with my Diablo .

What was also of great interest to me was high quality computer audio , and Tony demonstrated the possibilities here to great effect ! He doesn't use wireless BTW its all hard wired to the Bel Canto DAC and sounded superb and far better than red book CD , so yes Hamish if your reading this i admit its frigging brilliant :)

Something else that may be of interest ! Was that Tony does a lot of recording and remastering and i would say based on what i heard today , EMI should be employing his services .

Not sure what else to add , but many thanks to Tony for letting me experience what he has to offer , he also does TT's with a tasty looking Oracle mk6 and a very interesting Belles phono stage .

[Spectral Morn]

Heard a set up like that at the NI show...great sound in Tony's room. Tony was using an oracle Cd player.


Regards D S D L

[The Vinyl Adventure]

:)

I think (from memory of his previous comments) what Tony does is higher res than what my linn can do though to be fair...

[chris@panteg]

Hi Hamish

Tony has some incredible pro kit with Hi res that is almost off the scales , but alas i didn't get to hear that , just bog standard 24/192 :)

[magiccarpetride]

Hi Hamish

Tony has some incredible pro kit with Hi res that is almost off the scales , but alas i didn't get to hear that , just bog standard 24/192 :)

Wow, that's amazing! I for the life of me was never able to hear even the tiniest bit of difference between 24/192 and 24/96. Try as I may, these two formats always and under any circumstances sound absolutely the same to my ears.

The only real difference I was ever able to detect is between 16 bit and 24 bit. Yes, I am THAT old.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Alex

Well my Yamaha plays SACD and DVDA and yeah i feel much the same as you do !

What Tony has here though is something rather extreme and probably not commercially viable ? i don't know , but like i said i didn't get to listen to it alas :(

[Welder]

It’s a bit of a shocker when you hear file audio done well isn’t it.
I think the kit is available for purchase but the knowledge to make it sing is another matter. A completely different skill set to normal Hi Fi tweaking.
The best I’ve heard so far used a purpose built music server and a Metric Halo Dac ULN8.
Just moving to a well designed no moving parts passively cooled music server makes an enormous difference but they ain’t cheap to do properly. But, given you might spend £2000 to £3000 on a good quality record deck set up, the equivalent expenditure on a music server can yield surprising results.

[chris@panteg]

Hi John

I completely agree , the system and software i heard yesterday has taken some time to develop with painstaking attention to detail !

Two examples were ' the Eagles , Long road to Eden and When I'm 64 from Pepper ' it was quite a shock to hear how much better these sounded compared to the CD version's , the Beatles track was actually Tony's own mastered file made from a copy of the master tape ' which he was given access to for an afternoon :eek

I have to say i wasn't too bothered about the lack of a TT in this system !

It was that good :)

[Ali Tait]

Hi Chris,

Could Tony or yourself elaborate on the computer side of the system you heard please?

[chris@panteg]

Hi Ali

I think Tony should answer that question , i know he made his own software and it wasn't a wireless system , but sorry i can't elaborate any further .

I think he's busy for a few days .

[Vinyleyes]

+ 1 for that Gents ... I am in the process of choosing the route i take to do "computer" music .. and I would like the facilty to stream it around different rooms. At present I was thinking just to go the modified Squeezebox route with hi-end DAC .. and storing music on a computer. But I am not in a hurry and could wait and save the funds if there is a truly hi-end solution out there.
The other thing .. where does one get the 24/192 material in the 1st place though... I am looking to record vinyl and CD and store this for muti room replay.
Running hard wire would not be a problem for me if there are indeed sonic benefits ..
Any comments are much appreciated ..
Thanks

[Ali Tait]

Hi Alex

I think Tony should answer that question , i know he made his own software and it wasn't a wireless system , but sorry i can't elaborate any further .

I think he's busy for a few days .

Who's Alex? :doh: :lol:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

i think someone called alex hamish the other day you know ... that really confused me ...

[chris@panteg]

Who's Alex? :doh: :lol:

Sorry Ali :eyebrows: I meant Ali of course .

I blame that Exmoor Beast i had last weekend , still not recovered :cool:

[Alex_UK]

i think someone called alex hamish the other day you know ... that really confused me ...

I think that was me Alex that got called Hamish - confused me too! There are too many Alex's already, but we don't need more Hamish's! ;) I'm changing my name to Brenda.

[Stratmangler]

Sorry Ali :eyebrows: I meant Ali of course .

I blame that Exmoor Beast i had last weekend , still not recovered :cool:

I'm hoping that Exmoor Beast is a beer of some sort, otherwise your comment has to be taken in a completely new context:eyebrows:

[chris@panteg]

:lolsign: Chris

I was going to say after several pints of this stuff i was well and truly buggered :rolleyes: , oh dear now i really should speak no more lol

[Yiangos]

Guys,this is probably irrelevant but regarding conputers,i'd like to share my experience with you.Whenever i make a copy of a cd to play it in the car,the copy actually sounds better than the original and i don't have any fancy cards in my computer.Just the stock built-in thing that came with my computer.And my computer is almost 5 years old,if not six :)

[Ali Tait]

I've read that a few times before. Guess I'll have to try it sometime for myself.

[colinB]

Part of the advertising blurb for one of Naims hard drive/streamer units is that the copys from cds onto the hard drive sound better. What?! :scratch:

[Ali Tait]

I guess you are removing the variable of the mechanical cd transport, which can have an effect on sound. I wonder if they deliberately made the cd sound poorer in order to emphasise the superiority of the HD?

[Welder]

What I find particularly interesting about this is that top quality audio will move away from the guys with the soldering irons and in to the realm of those who have program coding skills.
The debates about what sounds best will be a thing of the past, you’ll be able to tailor, possibly, each individual track for a particular sound.
Don’t like the recording standard? No problem, re-master on your computer.
Even with amplification it seems major changes are under development. Class A and D mixed, full digital signal processing.
The top rated Dacs are top rated it seems to me not necessarily because of construction quality and component choices but because the chips have been programmed in an innovative manner and the topology is right.

[WAD62]

Part of the advertising blurb for one of Naims hard drive/streamer units is that the copys from cds onto the hard drive sound better. What?! :scratch:

That's pretty reasonable to me, assuming that the rip process was accurate in the first place, the replay of a computer based file will always be accurate bit for bit as it's reading a file from the disk, whereas there's always a small element of error in CD playback.

The problems with file replay are further down the line...:)

[magiccarpetride]

What I find particularly interesting about this is that top quality audio will move away from the guys with the soldering irons and in to the realm of those who have program coding skills.
The debates about what sounds best will be a thing of the past, you’ll be able to tailor, possibly, each individual track for a particular sound.
Don’t like the recording standard? No problem, re-master on your computer.
Even with amplification it seems major changes are under development. Class A and D mixed, full digital signal processing.
The top rated Dacs are top rated it seems to me not necessarily because of construction quality and component choices but because the chips have been programmed in an innovative manner and the topology is right.

I did enquire about that possibility with some knowledgeable sources, and was assured that, once the track is ruined during the 'loudness wars', there isn't anything on this green earth that could possibly mend it. The old 'garbage in, garbage out'.

[magiccarpetride]

Guys,this is probably irrelevant but regarding conputers,i'd like to share my experience with you.Whenever i make a copy of a cd to play it in the car,the copy actually sounds better than the original and i don't have any fancy cards in my computer.Just the stock built-in thing that came with my computer.And my computer is almost 5 years old,if not six :)

Yes, definitely, different pressings of the same material may sound different. It boils down to mechanics/optics. Different CD transports operate differently -- some read certain discs with more ease, others are experiencing hiccups with these same discs.

Digital audio cannot be distilled back into mere ones and zeros ('1' & '0'), even though that is its veritable source. There are countless other factors and parameters that play a major role in transporting and converting digital bits into analog very low voltage electrical current.

[MartinT]

It's probably a lot to do with the ease of laser tracking. A manufactured CD has pits pressed into the surface, followed by an aluminium reflective surface. A burned CD-R is very different having dye colour changes created under the surface by a laser burner. Although ostensibly the same, a CD and CD-R provide quite differently presented data to the reading laser.

[Welder]

That will be the end of the matter then Alex if you’ve enquired and that’s what you got told ;)

[Ali Tait]

Is there not software available that can remove the compression? Sure I read that somewhere..

[magiccarpetride]

Is there not software available that can remove the compression? Sure I read that somewhere..

Apparently not. I was seriously hoping that I could obtain software that would 'heal' those terribly disfigured 'loudness wars' CDs, but apparently tough luck. And I really managed to talk to some pretty experienced sound people about that, and they all basically threw their hands up in the air lamenting: "god, if only that were possible!"

Sad, very sad. There are some amazing albums out there that contain divine music that is completely destroyed by reckless mastering. Seemingly unrecoverable errors.

[Welder]

I’m not going to stick my neck out too far on this because I haven’t heard the results but apparently the theory goes like this.
If you can interpolate between samples to increase bit depth and frequency then any region can in theory also be extrapolated.
I imagine a lot will depend on the type of compression.
I do know its being worked on though.

[magiccarpetride]

I’m not going to stick my neck out too far on this because I haven’t heard the results but apparently the theory goes like this.
If you can interpolate between samples to increase bit depth and frequency then any region can in theory also be extrapolated.
I imagine a lot will depend on the type of compression.
I do know its being worked on though.

Can you provide any sources for that? It would really be great if there is a way to fix those abominable over-compressed, over-limited masters.

[chris@panteg]

Apparently not. I was seriously hoping that I could obtain software that would 'heal' those terribly disfigured 'loudness wars' CDs, but apparently tough luck. And I really managed to talk to some pretty experienced sound people about that, and they all basically threw their hands up in the air lamenting: "god, if only that were possible!"

Sad, very sad. There are some amazing albums out there that contain divine music that is completely destroyed by reckless mastering. Seemingly unrecoverable errors.

This is something Tony was talking about ' and its all down to the record companies , don't blame the mastering engineer ! He was very and i mean very implicit about that !

The Beatles ' When I'm 64 track really was astounding , and we compared it to the best available CD which Tony paid £400 for :eek: (jap special)

He also has a very low opinion of the Linn studio master downloads ,and again using a 24 bit Clare Martin track ,it wasn't difficult to tell that Linn do some strange things to these recordings .

[magiccarpetride]

This is something Tony was talking about ' and its all down to the record companies , don't blame the mastering engineer ! He was very and i mean very implicit about that !

The Beatles ' When I'm 64 track really was astounding , and we compared it to the best available CD which Tony paid £400 for :eek: (jap special)

He also has a very low opinion of the Linn studio master downloads ,and again using a 24 bit Clare Martin track ,it wasn't difficult to tell that Linn do some strange things to these recordings .

I think that's correct, the shape of the final product is most likely the result of marketing efforts, very little to do with the engineering.

Did you get a chance to compare Tony's version of "When I'm 64" with the 2009 24 bit remastered version, as available on the Apple USB? I'd be curious to hear your impressions (I find the 2009 24 bit remaster sounding quite good:)

[Welder]

“Can you provide any sources for that? It would really be great if there is a way to fix those abominable over-compressed, over-limited masters.”

I can’t really Alex no. What little knowledge I have about the subject is from a personal acquaintance.
I don’t really understand the mathematics behind it and I know sod all about this type of coding and that’s despite having a degree with a heavy mathematics component.
Doesn’t bode well for my students does it :eyebrows:

[MartinT]

I don't see how you can recover a compressed signal that has suffered limiting and, in many cases, clipping. Sure, you could computer interpolate but that's only going to make a guesstimate at best. We should fight for the original tapes to be remastered, provided a good sound was laid down in the first place.

[Welder]

I agree that the best option is to have well recorded, un-limited and uncompressed music at the outset. But, apparently interpolation works, that is listeners are unable to distinguish between real and calculated samples.

From what little I understand of the “extrapolation” process a lot depends on the algorithm used to compress the original material .

If for example one considers the unpacking of Flac to WAV and interpolation techniques it isn’t so far fetched to consider adding predicted samples to a compressed waveform.
Time will tell.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

He also has a very low opinion of the Linn studio master downloads ,and again using a 24 bit Clare Martin track ,it wasn't difficult to tell that Linn do some strange things to these recordings .

If it came on a White USB stick I have the same thing ...
And yeah, it doesn't sound as good as the other high res stuff I have .. In fact it doesn't sound as good as some of the stuff I have on cd ...
I don't understand it ...

[chris@panteg]

I think that's correct, the shape of the final product is most likely the result of marketing efforts, very little to do with the engineering.

Did you get a chance to compare Tony's version of "When I'm 64" with the 2009 24 bit remastered version, as available on the Apple USB? I'd be curious to hear your impressions (I find the 2009 24 bit remaster sounding quite good:)

No he didn't play that ! The file that Tony made was from a copy of the original master , not the 2009 remaster's .

[chris@panteg]

If it came on a White USB stick I have the same thing ...
And yeah, it doesn't sound as good as the other high res stuff I have .. In fact it doesn't sound as good as some of the stuff I have on cd ...
I don't understand it ...

I have to say Hamish , the Linn version sounded kind of impressive with loads of special effects , the straight version Tony has was just so much more correct musically with everything in its place and dare i say this ! More tuneful .

[WAD62]

If for example one considers the unpacking of Flac to WAV and interpolation techniques it isn’t so far fetched to consider adding predicted samples to a compressed waveform.
Time will tell.

I think we've only just started to scratch the surface of what can be achieved with computer based DSP algorithms and the like, as you say time will tell.

It's an area of Hi-Fi that's still in it's infancy...;)

[Mr. C]

I don't see how you can recover a compressed signal that has suffered limiting and, in many cases, clipping. Sure, you could computer interpolate but that's only going to make a guesstimate at best. We should fight for the original tapes to be remastered, provided a good sound was laid down in the first place.


Martin that's a nail head interface :)

Thank you for the kind words Chris, though in fairness to Chris he just came to borrow a cable! Not listen to me babble on about music lol!

I'm just a keen amateur when it comes to playing the drums honesty, the true players in our little outfit are the guitarist and keyboard player, I just keep the time apparently

Passion and a love for music should not be limited to just 'good recordings'

Most people are truly surprised when they a recoding they have known intimately for many years when it is played on a transparent system.

The system we used is not a top flight (in high end terms) system, just a set of carefully matched components that all cost firmly in the £2000 per box bracket, while that still can considered not an unmodest investment, it is still pretty realistic.

Chris, I believe could easily distinguish between all three and bit rates sampled rates we played.

Even the 16/44.1Khz stuff if mastered properly, ie:- (non compressed and the band's ego's are not in evident on the mixing day, plus the record company is not hovering on the 'compress the fuck' out if it button) can sound very good indeed.

The expensive Beatles CD is a JVC Victor K2 mastered edition, one of the most natural and genuinely good versions we have heard to date.

The differences between 24/96 and 24/174.6 and 24/192 are very evident, far greater sense of fluidity, spaciousness and realism, just a better sense of being there. Particularly spacitial cues just make sense.

The main reason why digital Wav / Flac files sound more real and natural is you are not having to do the conversion factor: lol:
By that I mean for a record deck you are in essence (crudely put) dragging a rack around a piece of plastic (Yet it still can sound superb without question) and an optical player (weather CD/SACD/DVD-A/BLU Ray you are still shinning a light on a spinning disc and using an error code correction factor (again these can still sound superb too)

When you compare a ripped CD (using EAC rip bit perfect or similar) against the original copy and against the genuine downloaded cd master copy they pressed the CD from, they are all the same digital bits no difference when you compare them against each other using a comparator programme.

Yet in our experience the downloaded (original cd master flac/wav file) sounds better in ever respect.

Record companies are in the business of selling records, they sell to their target markets, the greatest being 14 to 24 year olds, who listen of bedroom boom boxes/Ipods/MP3 players and car stereo's.

The listen above have generally no way of reproducing the full dynamic range of music that is recorded so record companies compress the music upto 8dB in some cases to make it 'sound' correct for the playback devices for the above paragraph uses.
Who make up the VAST majority of the music buying public? Not us old rockers/classical motorhead listeners/jazz cats and Beethoven aficionados etc.

The 'audiophile' labels sales DG/Blue note/ 360 degree sound et al make up a very small percentage of market place sad but true.

The advent of streaming devices and media players has given a few of the 'art house' labels and dedicated audiophile labels a chance to attack the back catalogue of a lot of well know bands and artists and give them the lossless and 24/96Khz treatment, however they is a long, long way to go yet.

Anyway, a big thanks to Chris for his time and kind words

[chris@panteg]

Hi Tony

And from me a big thanks , for letting me experience what you have to offer ,yes it was by your standards quite a modest system , but in all honesty I've not heard many better or as well set up .

PS the DC lead is superb , :)

[Mr. C]

Hi Chris,


I'm glad you like Chris, I felt it would be a positive improvement.

Tony

[Ali Tait]

Tony, could you elaborate on the source side of your system please?

[Welder]

While I may not agree with some of what’s been written above I must say it’s a pleasant interlude in the “only vinyl can do it” barrage.
This is after all the Art of Sound and not the Art of Analogue.

I have a number of problems with higher resolution material that even from an objective view point backs me into a corner. The differences are measurable and I believe I can hear a “difference” between say 24/96 and redbook but I would, and have, failed miserably in the past to differentiate between the two on better equipment than mine.
Part of the problem I have is deciding whether “different” is in fact better with regard to sound quality; I have no point of reference to say what is the “correct” sound, something that seems to get overlooked in these debates.

[Mr. C]

Tony, could you elaborate on the source side of your system please?

Hello Ali,

It's a custom built benchmarking pc I use to try out various programmes, sound cards etc.

It's based around a dual core processor, custom psu, under clocked board, stripped down operating system, 90TB of storage, a linux based player.

Using a ethernet data transport to a decoding box I built using a RME studio hammerfall dsp card set with dedicated word clock I/O

When Chris was here I was only using the Belcanto Dac 3.5 vbs, normally I use either a seriously upgraded Esoteric dac with wordclock slaving from the pc via an atomic clock or I use my own personal dac which uses the AKM 4799 32 bits chipsets again slaved to the G-0Rb clock.
Our 'mastering systems' uses DXD equipment which we have further enhanced.

hope that helps Ali

You guys can get away with something like this, I'll take these over the Lynx and apogee equipment any time (personal choice)

http://www.inta-audio.com/computer-music-c36/audio-interfaces-soundcards-c50/pci-pci-express-interfaces-c52/rme-rme-hdsp-9632-pci-audio-interface-p128

[Ali Tait]

Have you looked into streaming at all Tony, such as the Touch?

[Mr. C]

Have you looked into streaming at all Tony, such as the Touch?

Hi Ali,


Yes we demo a Touch for people to see, I've built a better psu for it, upgraded a few components inside related to the DOB sections, the odd Bybee (it's our 10th year with Jack's products now) and a better digital I/C

For people wishing to get on the ladder its a good product, some of the software is a bit slow, we use I-pod touch as a controller.
Its a nice product sensible money, however it compares in favourable with a lot of £1500-£2000 cd players transports.

[Ali Tait]

Thanks. Yes, I use a better PS with mine. I've not tried any different components inside as yet.

[Welder]

Hello Mr C

You say you use an underclocked Motherboard, what exactly does that entail?
You also say you use a dual core processor. Is there any merit in your experience of using quad core?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I have to say Hamish , the Linn version sounded kind of impressive with loads of special effects , the straight version Tony has was just so much more correct musically with everything in its place and dare i say this ! More tuneful .

I have to admit to never really putting my finger on what doesn't sound right about it ...
I had a quick listen earlier to refresh my memory, the best description I could come to was "muddled" ... Or "confused" maybe ... It just doesn't sound right to me
I don't actually like the music that much though so I guess that doesn't help ...
Although I should say, i did like her live ... I think that sort of music just needs to be live for me to like it ...

[Mr. C]

Hello Mr C

You say you use an underclocked Motherboard, what exactly does that entail?
You also say you use a dual core processor. Is there any merit in your experience of using quad core?

Hello John,

If you carefully think about what you are using the computer for, a digital audio transport only.

It is not a number cruncher, or graphics design machine neither a Photoshop work horse.
It doesn't not necessarily require quantum amounts processing power (which uses more power, think extra rfi/emi inducement) or spinning a HDD. All of my 90+TD is off PC storage only.

I only use foobar and media monkey to show people the potential of PC derived audio, I personally do not use either of these interfaces as for me they are too compromised sound quality wise.

I have my music collection in several places included a series of 100 or so 50GB high quality flash drives.

Under clocking is the complete opposite of over-clocking which the go faster boys of the PC world use for mega fast on line gaming, as I mentioned earlier John look at the application for which you are using the PC for.

It needs to be low power/fully shielded/superior psu (off board if possible)/memory reading/uber quiet data transfer/minimum inducted and induced RFI/EMI (Clock speeds and quality of here).

Minimising on board noises and vibration, quiter individual regulated power supplies etc.

All signal conversion away from the PC if possible, the list goes on.

I will be building a new test bed in the coming weeks based around different PC architecture and protocol.

I will keep you informed as to how that is progressing.

Tony

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Sounds awesome ...
How would such a thing get to be in someones house and easily useable on a day to day basis ... And at what cost ...
I find this stuff fascinating, but I have to say the above sounds like a nightmare to set up without huge amount of prior knowledge
I basically have a "lifestyle" hifi ... I don't mind that label ... It might have been a little bit of a faff getting the best out of the linn ... But now it works, and is controlled by the iPhone it's quite fantastic in it's simplicity ... Even Hannah can use it!

How far are we away from a commercially viable version of what you have Tony? Or is this sort of thing always going to be reserved for the techies ... Leaving the numpties like me to play with off the shelf options that provide very good performance and usability within the average home, but perhaps arent quite as refined as what you use? (assuming what you have is indeed better ;) ... )

[Mr. C]

Sounds awesome ...
How would such a thing get to be in someones house and easily useable on a day to day basis ... And at what cost ...
I find this stuff fascinating, but I have to say the above sounds like a nightmare to set up without huge amount of prior knowledge
I basically have a "lifestyle" hifi ... I don't mind that label ... It might have been a little bit of a faff getting the best out of the linn ... But now it works, and is controlled by the iPhone it's quite fantastic in it's simplicity ... Even Hannah can use it!

How far are we away from a commercially viable version of what you have Tony? Or is this sort of thing always going to be reserved for the techies ... Leaving the numpties like me to play with off the shelf options that provide very good performance and usability within the average home, but perhaps arent quite as refined as what you use? (assuming what you have is indeed better ;) ... )

Hamish,

That is crux of the issue, most people who tread this route wish for Apple style interface, with album art and information.

Our system does not provide this to the same degree of 'Appleness'

The system has been available for close to three years now, we tailor each package to each client.

They are simple to use, install is provided as is a back up maintained programme.

This is not a mass market system; it is for people who truly wish to sample 'pure music'.

The system that Chris listen too is our mid ranged music server.

One other point did make which will cause a few ruffled eyebrows, I have yet to hear a 'ripped' bit perfect disc match the same cd it was copied from when played through a CD based transport/dac set up.

It is close, however not enough to cause me to copy all 4000 cd I have.

The server system, we recommend CD lossless downloads and high resolution files only.

Our thoughts here are, invest in a quality dac, use this to improve your current CD player and also start to look at server based systems, most good quality dac's will support this option to.

Giving you the best of both worlds and with the addition of an A to D you can archive your Vinyl on to HDD as well.

[Welder]

Thanks Mr C

I’m in the process of researching components for a music server and a suitable OS and player to match.
I know a bit about overclocking from my gaming PC but underclocking a Motherboard is new to me.
I’m looking at a Linux based system but I read conflicting opinions on the merits of multi cored processors with large passive cooling devices and low powered dual or even mono core for audio applications.
I’ve assumed maximum RAM is beneficial even if only to run load to RAM music players. I have no idea if the extra noise say 6gig of RAM might add would degrade audio quality.
I’ll watch for your comments with interest.

Ooops, sry, forgot to ask. Do you think the bells and whistle players such as JRiver add an undesirable load to the processing?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

So ... Tony ... What sorta ££ are we looking at?
Or is it literally a case if the client saying "I have £XXXX.XX ... Gimmi the best for that cash please!"
What happens if I bought somthing like this and then you got hit by a bus ... How do I get support then? (sorry to be so blunt :) )

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

Sorry I'm late to this discussion, but I've been busy getting things ready for the Scalford Hall show next week.

Glad you had a good time at Tony's place. He is always a most amenable host, and certainly as far as eking out the best audio performance from computer music streaming is concerned, his expertise is almost second to none.

Therefore I'm not surprised that the results you heard were rather good, to say the least :)

More people should expose themselves to these sort of experiences and tap into Tony's in-depth knowledge on this subject, as it invariably acts as a valuable learning curve! :cool:

Marco.

[Mr. C]

Thanks Mr C

I’m in the process of researching components for a music server and a suitable OS and player to match.
I know a bit about overclocking from my gaming PC but underclocking a Motherboard is new to me.
I’m looking at a Linux based system but I read conflicting opinions on the merits of multi cored processors with large passive cooling devices and low powered dual or even mono core for audio applications.
I’ve assumed maximum RAM is beneficial even if only to run load to RAM music players. I have no idea if the extra noise say 6gig of RAM might add would degrade audio quality.
I’ll watch for your comments with interest.

Ooops, sry, forgot to ask. Do you think the bells and whistle players such as JRiver add an undesirable load to the processing?

John,

Here's the rub, none of systems use huge cooling devices as they are not required.

Why do you need to run such high clock speeds (a veritable rfi fountain lol!) and multi cored processors when all you are doing is spinning HDD is most cases? You do not need uber processors for this, again there is always contra thinking I agree.

Ingress of rfi and emi is not conducive to quality sound, remove it or best of all stop it from being produced as much as possible.

The quiestiant current caused by having say 3 x 2 gig ram modules in your front end may be measurable (with some nifty spectrum analyser), does it have an audio degregational effect? I'll leave you guys to figure that one out!

JR rivers has its followers, Personally I find it a pain in the ass :stalks:

For us it's about pure performance and musical involvement, in time we will get around to sorting out a user friendly interface.

John,

Reading and digesting information takes you so far, the rest is a leap of faith and going with your 'gut' sometimes you take a right turn instead of a forward move however it gives you more insight to how this really works.

[Mr. C]

So ... Tony ... What sorta ££ are we looking at?
Or is it literally a case if the client saying "I have £XXXX.XX ... Gimmi the best for that cash please!"
What happens if I bought somthing like this and then you got hit by a bus ... How do I get support then? (sorry to be so blunt :) )


Hamish,

Fair points,

The systems start from £3000 including all software, HDD's and decoding device, monitor, wireless keyboard and mouse all ready to go and installed.

Well, to your second point the bus would come off worst :lol:

We have detailed build manuals of all our systems we design so if for any reason I cannot be 'found' one of the other technicions can assist with any issues that may arise.

We also build for bomb proofing, and future upgrade potential.

Basically it offers serious performance for those wishing to exploit their systems potentail to the fullest.

[Welder]

Mr C

On the face of it low processor power would seem to have advantages, certainly with regard to thermal and electrical noise.
However, multi threading availible on the quad cores for example is said to have some benefit by some Dac designers.
I’m trying to make sense of this given as you point out, audio processing is extremely system un-intensive even if unpacking Flac files or similar is taken into account.
I haven’t seen the processor load on my current laptop exceed 7% on a modest 1.5 MHz.



(still not at all clear on how one underclocks a Mother Board)

[Mr. C]

John,

This may help

http://www.wikihow.com/Underclock-a-PC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underclocking

[Welder]

Ah, I see now thanks Mr C.
Yep I know a little bit about under-clocking gfx cards and processors, it was the Mother Board bit that had me confused ;)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Hamish,

Fair points,

The systems start from £3000 including all software, HDD's and decoding device, monitor, wireless keyboard and mouse all ready to go and installed.

Well, to your second point the bus would come off worst :lol:

We have detailed build manuals of all our systems we design so if for any reason I cannot be 'found' one of the other technicions can assist with any issues that may arise.

We also build for bomb proofing, and future upgrade potential.

Basically it offers serious performance for those wishing to exploit their systems potentail to the fullest.

Well should I come to upgrade my source I'll certainly bare this option in mind before anything else ...
I think a nice user interface would make or break it for me ... I know that's not what I should say as an "audiophile" ... But, the linn was a ball ache to get right, I still have to help Hannah use it sometimes and one of the main draws to a system like this is convenience and easy of use for all the family. Take that away and it's just not got the same apeal....
Although I suspect that is possibly a view I share with a non audiophile majority as opposed to the audiophile minority?

The improbable but possible untimlely demise of the bloke who builds it is what put me off chopping in the naim for an NVA hifi ... Fragile looking plastic glued together casing seemed a scary option when considering what would happen if mr Dunn kicked the bucket ...
Sorry to be so morbid, but I think this sort of thing is important to consider... That said it does sound as though you have your bases covered should you choose to take on the front of a bus :)

You still Malvern way, im sure someone told me you had move to London ...

[Mr. C]

Ah, I see now thanks Mr C.
Yep I know a little bit about under-clocking gfx cards and processors, it was the Mother Board bit that had me confused ;)

John.

You could always physically change the clock speed with a different TXCO or something a little more exotic if you have the funds.

[Welder]

Yep, a better crystal is always an option.
I need to get the basics sorted first and see what audible improvements I can get compared to a stripped out multi tasking laptop.
I’m fairly okay with the hardware, got some good advice on tap.
I think a lot will depend on the OS. Windows is notorious for running processor loop tasks in the background even thought the processor isn’t doing much.
I’m hoping the right OS choice will reduce a lot of the unnecessary background processes without having to go round my mates with a completed box and ask him to code them out.
I’m pretty much set on Linux but which version I don’t know……bit computer dense still, but learning.
A great deal can be done with coding knowledge, something I don’t have.
I reckon I’ll try and get over your way someday and see if it’s possible to hear your purpose built server.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Chris,

Sorry I'm late to this discussion, but I've been busy getting things ready for the Scalford Hall show next week.

Glad you had a good time at Tony's place. He is always a most amenable host, and certainly as far as eking out the best audio performance from computer music streaming is concerned, his expertise is almost second to none.

Therefore I'm not surprised that the results you heard were rather good, to say the least :)

More people should expose themselves to these sort of experiences and tap into Tony's in-depth knowledge on this subject, as it invariably acts as a valuable learning curve! :cool:

Marco.

Thanks Marco

Yes it was a real eye opener and i did learn something new , but also to have more respect for guy's like Tony .


I certainly won't be making any more daft and ill considered sweeping statements about computer audio and its possibilities .