Total Newbie Question ~ HD Audio Confusion

[synsei]

I've been dipping a toe into HD Audio and so far the waters lurvely. At the moment I am playing FLAC and APE files through the Caiman via an IXOS XDU02-300 USB cable from my netbook using WMP11. The quality of sound is entrancing but I know I can do better. The netbook is performing admirably at the moment but it is only a stop gap until I get my desktop PC up and running again, at which point it will become my audio and video server. I would prefer to use VLC Player than WMP but it refuses to play HD Audio.

I'm using what I have available to me to save on costs, so a Squeezebox is out of the question. The problem I am having is that occasionally WMP throws a wobbly while playing and closes, also I hate APE files as every one I've downloaded to date is one big file with no separate tracks, unfortunately I find they tend to sound better than an equivalent FLAC so I put up with them.

I'm also considering buying a second-hand Marantz dv7600 CD SACD or
Denon DVD-1930 DVD DVD-A SACD player to replace my NAD CD524 which has been playing up lately. Firstly, are either of these any good? Secondly, can I connect either of these up to the Caiman via my coaxial lead and get a 24bit res stereo downmix? I'm really unsure of all this digital milarky, so apologies if I'm making no sense... ;)

[keiths]

I hate APE files as every one I've downloaded to date is one big file with no separate tracks, unfortunately I find they tend to sound better than an equivalent FLAC so I put up with them.

Cuetools (http://www.cuetools.net/doku.php) will enable you to split those files up into individual tracks

[synsei]

Excellent, thanks Keith :cheers:

[Stratmangler]

Do you not have cue sheets with the ape files ?
Foobar2000 has a plugin for ape - it just works, so what more can I say, and Foobar2000 can also cope with cue sheets.

[synsei]

When I installed Foobar2000 it didn't work...

[Tim]

When I installed Foobar2000 it didn't work...
I've been using foobar2000 for years now and never found it not to work yet? What platform and version did you try it on?

It's also better with the WASAPI plug-in, completely bypasses Windows and sends a pure bitstream to your DAC. Only works from Vista onwards though.

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/130557.aspx

[Vincent Kars]

Maybe my website is of use.
It covers the basics of computer audio
See my signature

[Tim]

Maybe my website is of use.
It covers the basics of computer audio
See my signature

The Well Tempered Computer (http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/index.html) ...... brilliant, an excellent resource


:)

[Vincent Kars]

Thanks

[synsei]

Thank you so much for that link Vincent, it has proved invaluable. :cheers:

As for Foobar not working Tim, I think it may be due to the fact that the netbook I'm currently having to use to play my lossless files is running XP. Once I'm back using my main PC and Win7 64bit the situation will probably improve somewhat... ;)

[Tim]

As for Foobar not working Tim, I think it may be due to the fact that the netbook I'm currently having to use to play my lossless files is running XP. Once I'm back using my main PC and Win7 64bit the situation will probably improve somewhat... ;)
Hmmm, should be OK, I have a Netbook that had XP installed until a month or so ago and no problems? However, I have found that newer clean installs need a tweak to use they way I am used to, which is very basic with the default settings. I don't have skins, album art of visualisations, just the bare minimum.

The tweak changed from version 9.6.8. and was not a problem if you installed over the top of an earlier version, as the settings remained, but a clean install can appear not to be working right, or seem that way. It's in the Library configuration setting - click Library > Configure and you should see the below window.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/foobar.png

Make sure the highlighted boxes are checked, caught me out initially when I clean installed a new version. I would click on files in the playlist view and nothing would happen. But I have never found it not to run on any Windows platform from XP.

Try the above with a clean install of the latest version and configure WASAPI too, see what you think?

[Vincent Kars]

WASAPI is part of the Win audio engine as introduced in Vista.
I don’t expect it to work on XP

[Tim]

WASAPI is part of the Win audio engine as introduced in Vista.
I don’t expect it to work on XP

No it won't work on XP, I should have mentioned that to him...... oops :(

[Ali Tait]

Vincent, can I ask what you use for your source and how you configure things etc.? I'd like to learn more about this streaming malarkey.

I'm currently using a Touch with a Drobo directly connected, but I'm starting to get buffering issues because of the increasing file size as I add music, so I'm looking at using an old laptop as a dedicated server running Squeezecenter. Any thoughts as to the best way to do this?

[Tim]

Here's what I do........... all my music is ripped to FLAC using EAC

This is currently stored on a Windows PC as part of a Network, but this will change with today's cheap NAS box from Ebuyer and all the music will go there, but it will only hold music and nothing else. I have an old DELL D600 laptop, slow for most things as it's just 1GB RAM and a single core 1.6GHz CPU. I don't have anything much on here except the O/S (Win7), Spotify and Foobar2000 with the WASAPI component plug-in. Old it maybe, but it has more than enough grunt to run those two applications. This laptop is part of my home network. It was connected via USB to a Musical Fidelity V-DAC, but that has just been replaced by a Caiman DAC.

Foobar2000 streams the music from my main PC easily and I also stream to my Netbook which is also on the home network. I use a small iBasso DAC here. The netbook is configured the same, with Win7, Foobar and Spotify.

The netbook can also been using to remotely control the laptop when I want to sit down and do it all from my armchair - I use Radmin for this.

It's pretty simple really, just setting up the network and ripping the music is what took time.

http://www.radmin.com/

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/130557.aspx

EDIT: Further to the above, as I am using a relatively low spec source (DELL D600) and it's only used for streaming, I have nothing on it using up system resources, like Anti Virus for example and no drivers running that are not needed, so it actually runs very quickly and more than does the job.

[Ali Tait]

Yes, I used EAC until I got this new laptop, when I started having problems, so switched to Db poweramp, which works fine.

I already have a network set up with my new laptop ( though still using TinySC on the Touch), it's just that currently the Drobo is connected directly to the Touch, so to get to the Drobo I'm having to go through the Touch, which is A) starting to give buffering issues because the Touch is having problems hadling the increasing files size on the Drobo, and B) it takes ages to rip a cd as it has to go through the Touch.

This is why I'm looking at using an old laptop which I have flattened and reloaded XP on as a dedicated server to run SC. Hopefully that should sort the issues I am having.

[Tim]

Yes, I used EAC until I got this new laptop, when I started having problems, so switched to Db poweramp, which works fine.

I already have a network set up with my new laptop ( though still using TinySC on the Touch), it's just that currently the Drobo is connected directly to the Touch, so to get to the Drobo I'm having to go through the Touch, which is A) starting to give buffering issues because the Touch is having problems hadling the increasing files size on the Drobo, and B) it takes ages to rip a cd as it has to go through the Touch.

This is why I'm looking at using an old laptop which I have flattened and reloaded XP on as a dedicated server to run SC. Hopefully that should sort the issues I am having.

I can see now, I would think going through the Touch to get to the Drobo would cause a huge bottleneck. Using an old laptop stripped bare is a much better solution. You will be sorted then I reckon.

I still use EAC version 0.99 from 2008 and it's perfect, didn't get on with the newer fancy release - and I don't need album art and such like - if it ain't broke, don't fix it! :)

[Ali Tait]

Yeah, I did get an older version working for a while on the new laptop, but it went tits up again after a while, and the new version wouldn't work at all, I think it has a bug if the filepath is long, it wouldn't find the Drobo.

Db Poweramp is just as good I reckon though.

[Jac Hawk]

Ok Dave it sounds to me that you are going to do what i've done with regards to a A/V server PC, like you i don't use a squeezebox and i run a toslink cable direct to my A/V amp which does 24/96, i use WMP v12 and have no problems what so ever, i only use VLC player for the odd file that WMP doesn't recognise but prefer WMP as it has a better front end.

My entire library is in FLAC but i'm in the process of ripping it into lossless wma using DbPoweramp and upsampling to 24/96, and as i have recently bought a Yamaha DVDS2500 DVD-A SACD player i'm going to record as much as i can in DVD-A format, so that a/ i can play disks on my other system and b/ as most of my CD's are in Spain it's nice to have a hard copy, just in case, up to now i've ripped about 20 DVD-A and must admit that there is a definate improvement in sound over CD.

[Vincent Kars]

Vincent, can I ask what you use for your source and how you configure things etc.? I'd like to learn more about this streaming malarkey.

I use a iMac (for the looks), run Win7 on it.
I don’t think OS makes much of a difference especially if you bypass all the DSP supplied by the OS audio.
That’s why I use WASAPI
J River Media Center because it supports WASAPI and has a very flexible interface.
All DSP in JRMC is done in 64 bit so sufficient precision but most of the time I don’t use it

Did some modest tweaking http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Windows/Win7/Tweaks.htm
Can’t say I’m impressed.
Maybe using an outboard DAC makes the whole setup less sensitive to EMI/RFI etc going on inside the PC.

Audio files on a NAS so I can listen and maintain my collection on the laptops too.

Obvious I’m not streaming but using direct playback.
However if I put DLNA on, I can stream to and from all devices in the network.
True streaming (client – server) is convenient when using multi room and a necessity on the internet but I don’t need it.
In practice it often slows things down and is less stable than direct playback.

[Ali Tait]

Have you tried streaming to a Touch or similar?

[Vincent Kars]

I once loaded the whole on my PC, SqueezeServer + SqueezePlay.
But I don’t like the interface.
They don’t support the composer tag (only as part of the artist list)
The hardware appeals to me (no moving parts, silent) but the interface doesn’t.
As a consequence I never bought the hardware.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Streaming/Squeeze.htm

[Ali Tait]

Ok, so you haven't gone down the squeezebox route at all then?

[synsei]

I am trying to keep up guys, really I am :lol:

I haven't got a NAS drive as yet, but as I've just been given a shiny new N class router by Virgin (usual trick: "Thinking of leaving so gimme a prezzie and i'll stay" :lol: ), it would probably be my best option. By the way, I have an HTC Desire Android phone and I've heard that there are apps available for iPhones that can control Media Centre PC's, would it be too much to hope that they are available for Android too?

So, if I buy the Sony DVP-NS900V QS DVD/SACD Player I have my eye on, will it work ok with my Caiman using my existing digi-coax setup? I do hope so as it would mean I could look into buying SACD's off eBay, bearing in mind It won't be running into a multi-channel setup, just good ole stereo?

Damn, my head is spinning now... :lolsign:

[Ali Tait]

There is indeed, just search the market for "Squeezecommander"

[WAD62]

There is indeed, just search the market for "Squeezecommander"

Superb app IMHO :)

[Stratmangler]

So, if I buy the Sony DVP-NS900V QS DVD/SACD Player I have my eye on, will it work ok with my Caiman using my existing digi-coax setup? I do hope so as it would mean I could look into buying SACD's off eBay, bearing in mind It won't be running into a multi-channel setup, just good ole stereo?

Damn, my head is spinning now... :lolsign:

Your Caiman will work fine with the Sony with one major caveat - you will not be able to play SACD through the Caiman, or any other external DAC for that matter. CD and DVD will play with no problems. You can even play the CD layer of SACD hybrid discs through the Caiman.

SACD players do not output SACD information to external DACs over coaxial cable or optical fibre - they use the built-in DACs in the player, and then out to the player's analogue outputs.

SACD can be processed off board, but the connectivity is proprietary in nature - a dCS transport can connect to a dCS DAC via a dCS engineered method.

With the Sony player you have no option but to listen to SACD via the analogue outputs of the player.

[Jac Hawk]

Your Caiman will work fine with the Sony with one major caveat - you will not be able to play SACD through the Caiman, or any other external DAC for that matter. CD and DVD will play with no problems. You can even play the CD layer of SACD hybrid discs through the Caiman.

SACD players do not output SACD information to external DACs over coaxial cable or optical fibre - they use the built-in DACs in the player, and then out to the player's analogue outputs.

SACD can be processed off board, but the connectivity is proprietary in nature - a dCS transport can connect to a dCS DAC via a dCS engineered method.

With the Sony player you have no option but to listen to SACD via the analogue outputs of the player.

Is that just on the Sony? I've got a Yamaha DVDS2500 and i'm sure it outputs SACD via firewire, toslink and coaxial digital outputs.

[Stratmangler]

Is that just on the Sony? I've got a Yamaha DVDS2500 and i'm sure it outputs SACD via firewire, toslink and coaxial digital outputs.

What is the firewire for ?
It's a proprietary interface to a Yammy HTP.

Pioneer did the same with their Universal Disc Players and HTPs, and they won't talk to other manufacturers equipment over the link.

Pioneer also reencoded DSD to PCM IIRC.

[Jac Hawk]

What is the firewire for ?
It's a proprietary interface to a Yammy HTP.


Firewire was invented by sony i think, a lot of digital video recorders use it to link to a PC, on my Yamaha it's for audio only, i suppose you could use it to connect to a PC, i know some Yamaha A/V recievers have it too, not seen it on a DAC but there's no reason why you couldn't have it on a DAC.

[Stratmangler]

Firewire was invented by sony i think, a lot of digital video recorders use it to link to a PC, on my Yamaha it's for audio only, i suppose you could use it to connect to a PC, i know some Yamaha A/V recievers have it too, not seen it on a DAC but there's no reason why you couldn't have it on a DAC.

Thing is the Yammy player won't talk to the Pioneer HTP over the firewire and vice versa.

In actual fact it is not a firewire connection, it just uses firewire hardware to provide the physical interfacing.
Pioneer called it something like I2S - I'm running from memory, so it could be something else.

[Jac Hawk]

Thing is the Yammy player won't talk to the Pioneer HTP over the firewire and vice versa.

In actual fact it is not a firewire connection, it just uses firewire hardware to provide the physical interfacing.
Pioneer called it something like I2S - I'm running from memory, so it could be something else.

Well the manual was no use, aparantly it's called iLink and can be connected to suitable devices, but doesn't classify "suitable" so i'll just have to plug it into my PC and see what happens, however on my player SACD and DVD-A can be output at 24/96 to either toslink or coaxial

[Stratmangler]

Well the manual was no use, aparantly it's called iLink and can be connected to suitable devices, but doesn't classify "suitable" so i'll just have to plug it into my PC and see what happens, however on my player SACD and DVD-A can be output at 24/96 to either toslink or coaxial

If your player is putting anything from the SACD layer down the S/PDIF or optical at 24/96 I'd be surprised.
It was part of the anti piracy specification of the format for such data to not be digitally output.

Is there an internal stream process taking place where the DSD is converted to PCM @ 24/96 ?
That could be output through S/PDIF or optical.
This is unlikely, as Yamaha will have had to comply with Sony's demands for anti piracy measures when the SACD license was issued for your player.

[Jac Hawk]

If your player is putting anything from the SACD layer down the S/PDIF or optical at 24/96 I'd be surprised.
It was part of the anti piracy specification of the format for such data to not be digitally output.

Is there an internal stream process taking place where the DSD is converted to PCM @ 24/96 ?
That could be output through S/PDIF or optical.
This is unlikely, as Yamaha will have had to comply with Sony's demands for anti piracy measures when the SACD license was issued for your player.

True, in the very very small print there is a line which says SACD is not output to digital jacks. Crazy really :scratch: