Onboard phono preamps - how good are they?

[Epicurus]

Something I've noticed in practically every preamp or integrated amp review I've read is that the reviewers only test the preamp/amp for its merits when it comes to amplifying line-level signal; basically, they review preamps and integrated amps using only CDs.

Some amps, however, still do have phono preamps in them; for instance, the Luxman SQ-38, Marantz's PM-15 and its KI Pearl/Pearl Lite siblings, the Yamaha A-S 1000/2000. Yet, no reviewer has bothered to tell us a word about the onboard phono stages. Are they any good? Are they rubbish? Should we consider using them? Should we bypass them?

What does your own experience say? Not just about these specific amps, but about amps with integral phono stages in general.

[Reid Malenfant]

I remember being given some rated Yamaha integrated amp that had popped ;) When i went inside i was very surprised to find Black Gate electrolytics used in the phono stage as well as film caps :)

I think a few could be better than expected, don't under rate them :) Finding a good one might be problematical though. Still a phono pre amp with a 200W PSU sounds good to me, what couldn't it do :D

[chris@panteg]

I wonder sometimes if its a ruse to get us to spend more money ! But i do like the flexability of my Diablo , internal stages seem so unfasionable these days , but still some good one's about .

[chris@panteg]

I remember being given some rated Yamaha integrated amp that had popped ;) When i went inside i was very surprised to find Black Gate electrolytics used in the phono stage as well as film caps :)

I think a few could be better than expected, don't under rate them :) Finding a good one might be problematical though. Still a phono pre amp with a 200W PSU sounds good to me, what couldn't it do :D

Funny you should say that ,but the RIAA in my Yamaha AV is pretty decent , i did an A-B against the 640P and there wasn't much in it .

[Marco]

This is where Croft preamps come into their own.

Each one includes a point-to-point hard-wired all-valve MM phono stage, which outperforms many 'hi-end' off-board phono stages, often at a fraction of their cost! ;)

Good internal phono stages have the distinct advantage of being located nearer the (delicate) analogue signal source, and so don't need the use of the external interconnect cables used by off-board phono stages that degrade signal integrity.

Some amp manufacturers are 'phono friendly' and so make sure that the phono stages fitted in their designs match the quality of the line stages, so ignore them at your peril!

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

I like the approach Creek have, with my amp (and some other manufacturers of course) - it ships as line-level only, but you can add a phono board if you need it. if nothing else, you will be paying a lot for the casework and other bits with a standalone unit, so I guess the budget ones are probably more for adding the capability rather than replacing a built in phono stage on a low-end amp.

[Hypnotoad]

I compared the phono preamps in my Luxman L-430 integrated and Yamaha CR-1020 against a lowly CA 540P and I preferred the CA 540P. I have a Yamaha C4 preamp also and its better than a stock CA 540P or a CA 640P, it has polystyrene caps in it.

Although when compared to my upgraded CA 640P's, all the others pale by comparison.

[hifi_dave]

I think the answer is that few reviewers use turntables nowadays and it's also so much easier to base a review on the line inputs.

In the good ol' days, all amps and pre-amps had good phono stages fitted because that was the main signal source. Nowadays, with vinyl not as important for many people, the phono inputs tend to be an afterthought with little energy or money spent on them. This isn't always the case as can be heard with the likes of Creek, Rega, LFD etc.

Marco mentions Croft, which reminds me that a few months ago, on two occasions, I had customers here with very expensive Japanese integrated amps. They came to hear speakers but wanted to use vinyl as the source. On both occasions, the sound was lacklustre and flat, so I substituted the Croft Micro Basic (£400) and bingo - life, punch, drive, dynamics returned. Those £4-5K amps had lousy phono stages, easily bettered by a budget Croft pre...:eyebrows:

[Marco]

Indeed, Dave, and that's because Glenn's passionate about quality vinyl replay (well, as you know, he doesn't 'do' digital ;)), where so many other amplifier manufacturers today treat it as a second-class citizen :rolleyes:

It's almost impossible to better the phono stages hard-wired into Croft preamps, particularly when judiciously tweaked, as Glenn gets the circuits so right by Keeping It Simple, Stupid.

Most so-called 'hi-end' phono stages are victims of their over-complication!

Marco.

[bubba45]

I have a Rotel RA960BX with built in Phono stage. It can accomodate both MM & MC carts, (MC at .25mv) and to be honest its excellent for a built in phono stage.
Haven't felt the need to add in a separate preamp to run TT's through.
It's only an amp for my 2nd system but it beats a lot of the other built in stages on integrated amps I've heard.

[Beobloke]

Something I've noticed in practically every preamp or integrated amp review I've read is that the reviewers only test the preamp/amp for its merits when it comes to amplifying line-level signal; .

You're reading the wrong reviews, then. ;)

In all seriousness, it is still fairly uncommon for an integrated amplifier to include a phono stage. Given that there are the likes of the Pro-Ject Phono Box, CA 640P and Nad PP2 around, all of which are fine performers, it will do a manufacturer no favours to bung in a cheapie phono section just for the hell of it, just for the likes of me to moan that it's not very good, so they generally don't bother.

However, it's not all doom and gloom. Off the top of my head, the Luxman L-550A amp's phono stage is a belter, as have been the MM inputs of one or two Yamaha A/V receivers that I've played with.

[colinB]

I have a Rotel RA960BX with built in Phono stage. It can accomodate both MM & MC carts, (MC at .25mv) and to be honest its excellent for a built in phono stage.
Haven't felt the need to add in a separate preamp to run TT's through.
It's only an amp for my 2nd system but it beats a lot of the other built in stages on integrated amps I've heard.

Found the same with Rotels ive owned. Great phono stages.
Marantz also have are well thought of i believe.