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View Full Version : Centre speakers don't do bass huh?



Reid Malenfant
12-02-2011, 20:04
I keep forgetting that i have this beast which i bought from Brighton Sevenoaks... Long story but it was on offer on fleabay new at about a third the new price, one evening ebay went tits up & the next day i had a nice voucher for £70 that i could use anywhere i liked as recompense, i think you get the picture :eyebrows:

So i decided i'd buy the thing, after all it isn't going to be voiced that much different than my Yamaha NS1000M based speakers with it's Beryllium tweeter & alloy lower & upper midrange units..

Paradigm Signature C5 centre (http://www.paradigm.com/products/paradigm-reference/center/signature-series/signature-c5), mine is V2 and has a different suspension on the bass & lower midrange drivers to that pictured, other than that it's the same...

One of the V2 for sale on AudioGon as i type for $2800 :D

I feel it's important that any speaker connected in an AV system must be able to produce decent bass, after all you can't expect the sub to deal with everything :rolleyes:

I guess it'll be getting unboxed shortly...

Macca
13-02-2011, 10:20
I have some issues with centre speakers.

Firstly they are too complex and too expensive for what they need to do. What is wrong with a full range 8'' driver in a decent box? That could be knocked up DIY for £100 or less. There is no need for a 3 driver horizontal array - it is supposed to 'spread' the soundfield but in a typical UK living room (say 14' by 16') a 'spread' of sound is unnecessary.

Secondly a lot of soundtracks put way too much of the sound through the centre - Listening to mono through what is probably the worst speaker you have.

Thirdly because of the above you have to whack up the signal to the centre to get decent overall volume which eventually results in a blown tweeter.

If you have mega money to blow on a really good centre like that Paradigm that's fine. Otherwise I say either make your own or even better just switch it out completely.

My $0.02:)

JimC
13-02-2011, 10:44
The theory states that all 5 (now 7 and even 9 in some cases) speakers should be the same as should the Amplifiers in a Surround Sound System.

I have tried, using two and a half pairs of my favourite Rega Ela MK1's. The Amps are not all the same but are all roughly the same power out.

I realise that having a floor stander as a centre channel isn't practical for a lot of folk and may not be for me when i move later this year but i have enjoyed the setup i currently use.

James.

Macca
13-02-2011, 10:52
The theory states that all 5 (now 7 and even 9 in some cases) speakers should be the same as should the Amplifiers in a Surround Sound System.

James.

I think 10.2 is now the recommended 'ultimate' :eyebrows:

My take is that although it may be noticeable when replaying multichannel music it makes damn-all difference with a film soundtrack.

slate
13-02-2011, 11:22
I have a 5.1 setup in the basement and that is plenty for me. I have had the thought: Would I miss anything in a stereo or 2.1 setup?

Most of the time I am not aware if anything is playing in the back channels; but then I shouldn't be if the movie is good enough :lol:

Sometimes I notice - during concert movies you can hear the crowd behind you... or in an old movie like "Three Kings" were the ricochet bullet scene is clearly planned.

Clearly most of the time it is meant to be low key; with exceptions like in "Return of the Jedi" were the shot is fired over the right shoulder just when Leia meets one of the Ewoks..

And yes theory were that all speakers should be from the same series; use the same drivers etc... marketing hype in my book; like Valentines Day, Mothers Day, etc...

Techno Commander
13-02-2011, 11:27
I would rather take the budget required for 7 speakers and amplifier channels and plough it into a better set of stereo speakers and amps.

JimC
13-02-2011, 14:48
I think 10.2 is now the recommended 'ultimate'...................

:stalks:

Right........
Front Left and Right,
Rear Left and Right,
Centre and Centre Rear,
Surround Back Left and Right.......................ok, i've run out now:doh:

So, go on then, where do the other two go?!?!?!?

JC

Reid Malenfant
13-02-2011, 14:52
So, go on then, where do the other two go?!?!?!?

JC
I have a feeling they go on the left & right about level with where you are sitting but up high near the ceiling to add height to the thing :doh:

Techno Commander
13-02-2011, 15:47
Okjz36Pf7Kw&feature=player_embedded

JimC
13-02-2011, 15:57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.2

MartinT
13-02-2011, 15:58
I would rather take the budget required for 7 speakers and amplifier channels and plough it into a better set of stereo speakers and amps.

Spot on. Which is going to be better: two excellent channels or five compromised channels, given the same budget?

Reid Malenfant
13-02-2011, 18:54
How about 5 pretty much uncompromised channels? :eyebrows:

I can understand where a lot of people want to devote to their stereo setup for various reasons such as budget, room & of course possibly the most important the WAF factor. I feel pretty sure that stuffing in another speaker nearly the size of your present monoliths would cause problems Martin. As well as something to cover the surround channels :rolleyes:

In my case i make my own speakers, which certainly makes things a damn site cheaper :D I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't understand the fact that the Paradigm speaker i happen to have here new is going to be taken to bits, the enclosure stored & a new enclosure built. I can do a better job though & i obviously want a speaker that matches the stereo pair of speakers i use at the present.

I neglected to mention that my front speakers are actually going to be used as the surround speakers once i have new front ones built :eek: :D

I suppose i'm lucky in that i happen to have what would normally be classed as two living rooms, so i can dedicate one to the HiFi & AV system - which is precisely what i'm doing :)

Techno Commander
13-02-2011, 19:19
I suppose a lot depends on if you want to optimise your system for music or video playback.

Reid Malenfant
13-02-2011, 19:22
I suppose a lot depends on if you want to optimise your system for music or video playback.
Both :)

Jac Hawk
13-02-2011, 23:49
in my system i have a pair of Mordaunt short ms45ti's and a polk audio centre, i find that not only do i need to have the centre speaker turned down lower than the front left and right, but also have it angled at about 45deg upwards, bass isn't a problem the MS45Ti's take care of that, but it has taken a while to get the centre set up so that you can hear dialogue as well as having good stereo seperation, it's al too easy in a 5.1 set up to have it way too centre happy.

MartinT
14-02-2011, 06:50
I can understand where a lot of people want to devote to their stereo setup for various reasons such as budget, room & of course possibly the most important the WAF factor. I feel pretty sure that stuffing in another speaker nearly the size of your present monoliths would cause problems Martin. As well as something to cover the surround channels :rolleyes:

No WAF here, I just don't really get surround sound.


I suppose a lot depends on if you want to optimise your system for music or video playback.

Always music. However, video playback benefits from the attention given to the music side.

JimC
14-02-2011, 07:37
I have managed to integrate both systems quite nicely.

Making my own Amps has made this easier than for most i agree. I have made the Protection Relay in the two Monoblocks i use for Surround Front Left and Right a 'changeover' type. So, when the Surround Sound is off, the Front Speakers are fed by my Stereo Amp. Turning the Surround system on then feeds the Front speakers with Transistorised Amplification from the two Monoblocks.

It works well for me.

James.

WAD62
14-02-2011, 12:23
I tend to agree with some of the earlier posters here, Andy and Macca I think.

I started off with 5.1, (I channel the left and right through to my stereo setup via a Yamaha DSP800E).

I was using a mission 78C for my centre, but found that far too much was being channelled through it, particularly on music DVD's.

So I've gone back to 4.1, channelling the centre across the L & R, and therefore into my much better stereo rig, the Yamaha is now only responsible for the sub and my rear surrounds, Bose AM-5s which is actually a good use for them (they were shit as main stereo speakers), as each one can be split/twisted to simulate 6.1 (if you see what I mean). :)

Interconnect
15-01-2012, 15:03
I dont know what it sounds like, but I do know I would spend more time looking at that Paradigm then I would at the film!

Double sexy looking speaker!

Spectral Morn
16-01-2012, 19:02
About 70% of the sound in a movie comes via a homecinema's centre channel (and that includes bass information, if its in the mix for there over-and-above the bass in the lower registers of the human voice) but it is still vital to keep the speakers the same make and from the same range to keep the voicing the same otherwise the sound field will not integrate properly and the centre dialogue will sound separate to the rest of the sound field. Always my experience when messing about with Homecinema speakers years ago.

The THX model seems to work best, i.e keep all the speakers the same. One time I broke this rule a Mission centre speaker from a different range it sounded crap so I opted for a similar model to the surrounds, also from Mission, which integrated properly. M&K made excellent THX spec speakers.


Regards D S D L

Reid Malenfant
16-01-2012, 19:35
I do agree Neil, which is precisely why I sourced another NS1000 midrange driver simply so I could build a new speaker all with matching drivers from 100Hz upwards :)

Only difference will be the sub 100Hz frequencies that will use drivers that don't match. At those frequencies it hardly matters though :D

pwood
20-01-2012, 13:27
Use the same speaker across the front or buy ones that are voiced the same. My RX centre sounds very good and has decent bass compared with my RX6 L/R floorstanders. Previously I had Ruark Talisman 11 L/R with their own centre speaker and it was not a decent match and changing to the RX trio made that all to obvious as now its seemless. If you cant get that then phantom mode works well enough as long as you dont have anyone off axis watching the film.

Reid Malenfant
20-01-2012, 14:27
The whole front & rear system will be matched driver wise. Below 100Hz it really isn't going to matter about matching the drivers, just as long as things remain in phase.

All tweeters will be from Yamaha NS1000M monitors, front left & right will be D'Appolito configuration using two NS1000M mids & 2 x Monacor 9" carbon bass/mids. Centre will use NS1000M mid & 2 x 7" Monacor carbon bass/mids.

Surrounds will also use NS1000M mids & a 7" Monacor carbon bass/mid in each enclosure.

The only difference will be in bass drivers. Left & right will each use 2 x CSS SDX15 in a isobaric arrangement, centre will use 2 x Peerless (Tymphany) P830452 10" & the surrounds will each use a single Peerless P830452.


If that lot doesn't match I don't know what will :)

pwood
22-01-2012, 14:58
If it doesnt then Audessey room correction unit would make a hell of difference(where its good is up to you) if you can afford the price of the pro standalone unit and be bothered with the hassle of setting spot on. My Onkyo has a consumer version of Audessey built in and it made an amazing difference on my previous setup which consisted of the Ruarks mentions, REL quake sub and Monitor audio BFX reare run in Bipole mode due to being on the rear wall not the side.

Once I got the RX front end I recalibrated Audessey umpteen times and noted little difference on or off and prefer it without. Same room and layout so it shows it has place in some setups. I expect the 1K plus Audessey would improve things but if I have learned anything over the years you have to know when your happy at a given price point:cool:

Reid Malenfant
22-01-2012, 16:02
Hi Paul, I will be using DSP room correction, but only on frequencies below 100 - 150Hz. I am very happy with what a certain Antimode 8033c does, which you can read about here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12644) if you haven't already :)

I don't mind correcting in the bass region, but I simply don't want to anywhere else as I don't want to put everything through DSP & introduce a possible downgrade in audio quality :rolleyes:


Bests to you :)