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Hi,
I have already a 103r and 103r-retip. But I am not realy 100% happy with them. Now I have read a lot about the 103 pro, and I am very interested in these. I live in Nedherlands/Holland, I have seen differend sellers on the Internet. I have seen counts of 400-600 $. What I want to know, what seller is the best, to buy a 103pro ? I hope someone can/will help me.
Thank's a lot, Mart10
The Grand Wazoo
04-02-2011, 23:57
Hi Martien,
Welcome to The Art of Sound!
Before you go too much further would you mind introducing yourself to the other members by starting a little thread in the Welcome section please? You're sure to get a warm reception as we're all very friendly here. Tell us a little about yourself & your system and maybe a bit about your musical interests.
Cheers
Well, I have 2 times wrote a welcom post, but I don't know where it is at this forum, I don't understand is all....Mart10
I did something wrong, now it is, at the welcom, Martien
The Grand Wazoo
05-02-2011, 17:55
Seems a bit odd as your post count says you've made only two posts & there are two posts on this thread!
Hi,
Before I will buy a 103pro:
There are people how know if the 103Pro is much better than a 103R-retipped? In my option, the the 103R-retip is much better than the basic 103R. But what I am missing is deepth in the stereo and focus. I have read the 103pro is another sound level, is that right ? Is there also more deepth ? I am very interesting.
Regards, Martien
Hi Martien,
Welcome to AoS :)
The 103Pro is indeed excellent, and way better than a stock 103R (don't know about a re-tipped one), but unfortunately is still hampered by its plastic body-shell, which is quite resonant and thus adds an unpleasant coloration to the sound.
Removing the plastic body-shell and 'nuding' the cartridge cure this problem, so that's an option.
However, 'where it's at' with the DL-103 is the 'SA' version. The 103SA is, to my ears, by far and large the best 103 available, where the use of a resonant-free glass-fibre body-shell allows the full talents of the cartridge to shine through, resulting in creating a genuine hi-end MC cartridge, which can compete with (and in some areas outperform) the very best.
Hope this helps! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Thanks for reading my post so soon!
I have indeed much read from you on this TAS. I read you have the pro end ths SA version. Before the R-retip, I have take off the plastic body from the 103R and did it in the Wood-body, but is was too weight for my ET2-arm. also I can not hear a big difference. so I make him again "basic" (103R) and send him in for the retip. This sound very well. But I still missing deepth and focus. So I think maybe the PRO is better, but you sad no. The SA is really the best of all you sad.
I also the stereo deepth better ? Now I don't know what to do still.
Regards, Martien
Hi Martien,
Glad you've been reading my ramblings - I knew that someone somewhere must be! :eyebrows:
The 103Pro is indeed better than the 103R, due to its extended high-frequency response, so in theory, if it were put into a better quality body-shell, it should be the best of all.
Unfortunately, however, listening results prove somewhat differently. It's good, but the 103SA has more finesse, and overall, more resolution.
My advice would be if you want the best 103, then the candidates are the 'SA' and also the ZU-modified versions, which really are superb :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Thanks for your advise, I understand presysle what you are meaning now.
I think realy the buy a SA, I hope they still are availleble on the market now.
Thank a lot, I let you know
Regards, Martien
Hi Martien,
No problem - you are welcome. This chap is reliable to buy from:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Denon-DL-103-SA-DL103SA-MC-Tonabnehmer-Cartridge-NEU_W0QQitemZ260304283222QQcategoryZ23324QQcmdZVie wItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DDLSL%2 52BSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BIEW %252BFICS%252BUFI%252BDDSIC%26otn%3D8%26pmod%3D380 077677996%252B380077677996%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clk id%3D6902651290813418570
:)
Marco.
alfie2902
06-02-2011, 21:08
Put your re-tipped 103R in one of Uwe's wooden bodies it will give the SA a run for it's money!
http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/images/media/Bodies.pdf
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/uwebody_e.html
Hi Alfie,
Yes, that's another valid option, although I'd probably put a 103Pro inside instead :)
Marco.
alfie2902
07-02-2011, 12:08
Hi Alfie,
Yes, that's another valid option, although I'd probably put a 103Pro inside instead :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
You could be right about using a 103pro instead.
My thought was though if the re-tip 103R is already nude it would just drop in to a wooden body (or metal body for that matter) at only the cost of the body! Also depending on what work has already been carried out on the cart at the re-tip stage i.e. Ruby Cantilever and Paratrace Stylus? it my already surpass the work Highphonic did on the cantilever & damper in making it a Pro!
Was just a thought to get the max out what's already owned for the least expenditure! If you start to spend to much more you're at the entry level price of SPU's & Shelters & IMO better carts.
Hi,
I have already, post in the begin, the 103r in an Uwe wood body, but is was too heavy for my ET2 arm, also I have heard no difference in the short test.
So I put it back in the original plastic body, and he plays fine, but I mis something, like depth and some space :scratch:
Regards, Martien
alfie2902
07-02-2011, 13:47
Hi,
I have already, post in the begin, the 103r in an Uwe wood body, but is was too heavy for my ET2 arm, also I have heard no difference in the short test.
So I put it back in the original plastic body, and he plays fine, but I mis something, like depth and some space :scratch:
Regards, Martien
Hi Martien,
Sorry, I missed the bit where you said you had already tried the Uwe body! What work was carried out at the 103R re-tip? if you had a Ruby Cantilever and Paratrace Stylus fitted IMO it is already a better cart than the 103Pro, not sure everyone will agree though. If so I would look for the lightest weight aftermarket body to fit to your 103R or just plump for the 103SA.
P.S. Which wood is your Uwe made from? & might you want to sell it?
Hi,
Yet I have the 103sa buyed in Germany, like Marco sad.
I have thinking also about a Dynavector 20x2, or xx2 or something, but I don't no how the are, and if the do it right in my ET2arm.
What I know, is that the 103R sound good, but I want a little more
So I hope the "SA" is good enough for me. :)
The 103R-retip, have a Boron cantilever with Nude line contact stylus, it is happend at Audiosellers, near where I live, looks very good, nice sound.
The wood-body, was a Panzerholz, I have already sell it.
The standard 103 R a have, that one I will sell it also now. :scratch:
when you say re tipped, are you talking about just the point or cantilever modification as well?
My std 103 is currently with the expert stylus co. having the works. I believe it is a sapphire cantilever and in house designed tip that is being fitted. I can't wait to hear it. They did one for me a long time ago but my system was somewhat behind what it is now. Funnily enough, they have recommended not to nude it in its new form.
I just hope I can sort out the new room acoustics before it makes its way back to me!!!
I have been talking to a very nice chap called Graham, he worked for SME for many years building and designing tone-arms, left and set up his own company called South West Analogue. (http://www.hi-fi-specialist.com/)
He is the chap who got me the SME309 and I was going to do a small right up about how impressed I am with his company, anyway I asked him what cartridge he recommends for the 309 and he actually rebuilds the 103 to his own design, hence me mentioning it here, cost is £425 which is what I will be saving up for next to got on my 309. If he designed arms he surely knows the best cartridges for SME and maybe others.
A mine of information too, I am sure he would be happy to hear from AOS members.
Have you suggested he join here, David? I'm sure it would be to everyone's mutual benefit, as he would doubtless get some business as I'm sure you would agree - and he would be a valuable contributor with his knowledge I suspect? Perhaps he doesn't do forums, assome don't - but at least give us a try as I think AoS is a different teapot of squid compared to the norm...? :)
South West Analogue
17-02-2011, 09:55
The Denon 103 can be updated with a Sapphire cantilever and a high quality stylus fitted by Expert stylus, for whom we are agents for. This overcomes the cartridges only short coming, ie: the stylus. The Denon 103M (modified) can be puchased new with these modifactions already done and transforms a good cartridge into a truly great one. We suggest contacting them directly for re-tipping but we have new 103M`s in stock to avoid the long delay. Regards, Graham
chris@panteg
17-02-2011, 10:13
Hi Graham
I recently tried a rebodied 103R in my 309 , and while i heard some great potential in the combination ! There was a tendency to coarseness and harshness , with which i could not put up with for long , i need to add this was not always noticeable ! On some older recordings like this one
http://images.artistdirect.com/Images/Sources/AMGCOVERS/music/cover200/dre400/e443/e443814g5vq.jpg
It sounded sublime , but modern pop recordings like the Cars ' Heartbeat City ' were almost unlistenable and yet the same album via the DL160 is fine !
Hi Graham,
We suggest contacting them directly for re-tipping but we have new 103M`s in stock to avoid the long delay.
How much do you sell the 103M for? :)
Marco.
Mine is with them right now for the sapphire cantilever and re tip! I mentioned before, they specifically do not recommend the wood bodies or nuding the cart. One thing I've not established yet is if the modded cart will still want additional mass on the shell and arm?
Hi Ian,
I mentioned before, they specifically do not recommend the wood bodies or nuding the cart.
So what do ESC do, then - fit a new stylus and retain the original plastic body-shell? :scratch:
If so, all you're doing is fixing one thing, but ignoring (in my view) a more significant problem - the highly resonant nature of the stock plastic body-shell, and its detrimental effect on the 103's sonic performance.
That is why, for example, a 103SA (with its glass-fibre body-shell) is significantly better than a 103R, despite both sharing the same stylus and generator.
Marco.
flapland
17-02-2011, 13:41
Do we know if ESC don't like the Aluminium bodies either or just the wooden ones. The Alu body certainly improved my stock DL103 for more than the £39 it cost me.
Not sure! Mine went to them with the body not fixed to the cart.
I asked for the body not to be re-fixed when it was finished so that I could use a wooden body. The advice I received was not to!!! I was a little shocked but as very much value the expertise and opinion of the guys and so advised that they could refit the stock body. I'm not sure if they do anything to change the body itself during this type of upgrade.
I'm expecting the quality to resemble something equivilent to £1200 in audio quality which is way above what my 1200 requires (which is std other then an external PSU)
Graham at SWA has sent this reply about his special cartridges as he is a bit busy:-
The Denon 103M is new but modified by Expert Stylus and features a Sapphire cantilever and their own very special Paratrac stylus.
As agents for them we usually have the 103M in stock as it can have a very long waiting time.
For SME tonearms with magnesium tonearms/headshells we charge £450.00 including VAT and UK carriage. Because the cartridge is rather large but shallow we supply it with a set of long SME Silver Litz cartridge leads part No: 5899MCL, RRP £73.94 and a plain cartridge spacer between the cartridge and headshell to give adequate clearance at the back. We can also supply a threaded one which is glued to the cartridge and cartridge fixing screws are then screwed into that, that is supplied at £12.00 extra.
Most other tonearms are more accessible and fitment is easier. For our price, to your requirements please e-mail me on info@southwestanalogue.co.uk
Hi Ian,
Not sure! Mine went to them with the body not fixed to the cart.
I asked for the body not to be re-fixed when it was finished so that I could use a wooden body. The advice I received was not to!!! I was a little shocked but as very much value the expertise and opinion of the guys and so advised that they could refit the stock body. I'm not sure if they do anything to change the body itself during this type of upgrade.
Ah, I see.....
Did they give reasons why they don't recommend a wooden body? If not, please ask them. I'm curious to know their rationale behind this, as 'nuding' the 103 and then fitting a wooden body is seen by many as a significant upgrade.
I've not tried it myself, though, so can't comment.
The problem I have with ESC improving only the stylus is that the results will at best be half-baked, as you're only dealing with one aspect of the 103s 'failings', as it were, and ignoring the arguably more significant problem created by the plastic body-shell.
I've not played around with 'fancy' styli on the 103, but wouldn't dispute the sonic benefits it would bring. However, I do know quite categorically from experience that the stock plastic shell of the 103 is a significant hindrance to its performance.
Therefore, I'm afraid that upgrading the stylus without also attending to the body-shell will, whilst no doubt improving things to a degree, would simply be papering over the cracks.
David, cheers for the info from Graham! :)
Marco.
Hi,
I have the new DL-103SA, played now for 2 day's, and indeed everything is better than de standaard 103R in avery way.
For example the bass is not blump as the normal "R", and the mid, like vocals and guitars etc, the are real now, with natural soundtimbre.
About the 103R-Retip: It's OK, very much more details, but the sound is staying a little bit "thin", not a full body-sound, so vocals and guitars etc. they have not a good full natural timbre, that's what I found.
So the 103SA is a very good cart, that have the better overal goodness over the 103R en the 103R-retip.
Marco sad:
That is why, for example, a 103SA (with its glass-fibre body-shell) is significantly better than a 103R, despite both sharing the same stylus and generator.
But I dont' know, I think the cantilever and stylus seems be different from de standaard "R", but maybe I'am wrong....
I can't believe that the difference is made only due the Glasfiber case ??
But anyway I am very happy with my 103SA !! after 6 ours playing !! :eek:
Regards, Martien, and thank's for the very good advise, Marco
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