Back to 432Hz?

[kininigin]

I came across this website http://wemustknow.net/2010/05/back-to-432-hz-english-music/ and thought it sounded interesting and gave it a go.

If you have,or don't have foobar, follow these instructions and share your opinions.

Download Foobar 1.0.1 beta 1, download and extract soundtouch 1.1 plugin into foobar/components folder.
Goto File>Preferences>Playback>DSP Manager, move SoundTouch to the left and configure.
Check Mark "Pitch adjust" and set it to -0.32 (use your keyboard arrows for fine adjustment).

http://www.foobar2000.org/download
http://acropolis.lokalen.org/2006/10/foobar2000/my-foobar2000-components/
http://users.abo.fi/jtuomain/speech/semitone.html

After converting to 432Hz music certainly sounds easier to listen to,doesn't have that hard edge to it that can sometimes be there.It's early days yet and im still evaluating but sounds good so far.

[kininigin]

not 1 person even slightly curious :scratch:

It's easy to do and can be reversed at a click of a button.

Or have i missed something glaringly obvious and everyone's thinking what a muppet :lol:

[Stratmangler]

Played with it and can't see the point of it.:scratch:

[kininigin]

Played with it and can't see the point of it.:scratch:

well a couple of the claimed benefits are

1. Research shows that music in 432 Hz, in according to the majority of the music lovers, is nicer for hearing, softer, brighter and more beautiful than music in 440 Hz. But you must have a good ear for music to hear this difference. Practically the difference is more clear with quiet and classical music than with hard, loud music.

2. Because 432 Hz gives a greater clarity than 440 Hz, there’s less need to play music in 432 Hz as loud as in 440 Hz. This means less hearing damage, as long as you put the volume not too high. It’s known that, for example, 90 dB gives hearing damage after 8 hours. Further there’s also less noise pressure with 432 Hz. .

[Vincent Kars]

The major reason why I’m not interested is that a simple technical trick is not where it is about.
In classical music you can find a lot of authentic performances.
Of course they tune to what was common in the period: In case of baroque music this is 415, classicism 430 en modern 440 Hz. If you have perfect pitch you have a problem!
But they do a lot more like using instruments from that period, the way the bow is handled, the use of vibrato, etc. etc.
Listen to a sonata by Beethoven played on a modern Steinway and on a fortepiano and you will find out that an authentic performance it is more than just a change of pitch.

[Stratmangler]

well a couple of the claimed benefits are

1. Research shows that music in 432 Hz, in according to the majority of the music lovers, is nicer for hearing, softer, brighter and more beautiful than music in 440 Hz. But you must have a good ear for music to hear this difference. Practically the difference is more clear with quiet and classical music than with hard, loud music.

2. Because 432 Hz gives a greater clarity than 440 Hz, there’s less need to play music in 432 Hz as loud as in 440 Hz. This means less hearing damage, as long as you put the volume not too high. It’s known that, for example, 90 dB gives hearing damage after 8 hours. Further there’s also less noise pressure with 432 Hz. .


Messing about with the pitch of a recording, especially taking it down, lessens the impact that the recording artist originally intended.
The intensity of the sound is vital to indicating artistic intent, and as such should not be messed around with.

It is for the artist to tune to A=432Hz, not us to tune the recording.

[Beechwoods]

That's my view too. I wonder why those musicians in 1953 made the decision to standardise at 440hz as well, if it wasn't any good :scratch:

[Stratmangler]

That's my view too. I wonder why those musicians in 1953 made the decision to standardise at 440hz as well, if it wasn't any good :scratch:

My guess is that it was a compromise (as are many, many things) because A=440Hz is a tunable point for all of the instruments in the orchestra.
With a different tuning point the chances of all the instruments being able to adjust to that pitch point are reduced considerably.

I am only talking modern varieties of instrument here.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I can't get my head round this at all ...
I agree with Chris entirely ...
But it raises a lot of questions for me that I can't work out the answer too ...

How do yet know these old instruments were tuned differently?

Wasnt the notation system invented in the 1300's by a monk trying to find a way to communicate sounds on paper (do, re, mi etc)

How was a note found on an instrument before that

If it was just by ear without reference then surely it varied a lot anyway

Or was there something to do with bells that was a reference

I don't have perfect pitch so I don't understand it, but if this is the case then surly perfect pitch is a variable anyway??

One guy said on a thread on a music forum that 432 makes sence because it makes other notes round number of cycles per second ... But we invented the second as a period of time ...

I don't get any of it at all ... Am I just being thick?

[Trickie_Dickie]

I can't get my head round this at all ...
I agree with Chris entirely ...
But it raises a lot of questions for me that I can't work out the answer too ...

How do yet know these old instruments were tuned differently?

Wasnt the notation system invented in the 1300's by a monk trying to find a way to communicate sounds on paper (do, re, mi etc)

How was a note found on an instrument before that

If it was just by ear without reference then surely it varied a lot anyway

Or was there something to do with bells that was a reference

I don't have perfect pitch so I don't understand it, but if this is the case then surly perfect pitch is a variable anyway??

One guy said on a thread on a music forum that 432 makes sence because it makes other notes round number of cycles per second ... But we invented the second as a period of time ...

I don't get any of it at all ... Am I just being thick?

I'm with Hamish on this.
Unless you're listening live, who knows what you're listening to after the engineers have messed with it. :cool:

[WAD62]

I'm with Hamish on this.
Unless you're listening live, who knows what you're listening to after the engineers have messed with it. :cool:

...make that 3 of us :scratch:

[Vincent Kars]

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/rev_tuning_hist.html

[kininigin]

from the artical i read,i was under the impression that all instruments are tuned to 440Hz.As richard said who knows what engineers do and i never considered that the musicians themselves may tune to a different frequency.

That's an interesting link you posted vincent,makes you wonder though when a guy like Joseph Goebbels attempts to institutionalize A=440 as the standard pitch.

I was thinking the same as you hamish,how did they know what their instruments were tuned to in ancient times?

[Stratmangler]

Jimi Hendrix detuned a half tone, because he found it easier to sing to. It also gave his guitar a heavier tone and made string bending easier.

Slash habitually tunes down a half step - it's a practise he developed in Guns 'n' Roses because it was easier for Axl to whine away to, and it also sounded heavier.

The Metallica boys sometimes tune lower still.

I don't care how anybody tunes their instrument - if it works for them then it's the way to do things, but that is not what the OP was about - it was about manipulating the sound on playback at home, using this Foobar plugin, and for me to mess with the recording in such a way is too much.

I've tried it, and it is easy to screw the recording around to perform all sorts of horrific sounding operations on a track.
There's already been a lot of manipulation prior to the record being released for public consumption, and in my opinion there should be no requirement to further do so.

So I think that the plugin is a waste of time and energy.

Now if I were to DJ regularly and wanted to match the BPMs then maybe the plugin might have some use.........

[The Vinyl Adventure]

No use for a DJ if it only changes pitch not speed ...
I still can't get my hea round this ...

[Stratmangler]

Does the pitch necessarily matter to a DJ ?
How do they adjust and fine tune BPM on their "Technics Man...." ?
And the effect on the pitch is......?

A club DJ messes around with the pitch of the records because he messes (sorry - adjusts) with.......















The pitch control:lolsign::lolsign:

[kininigin]

I don't care how anybody tunes their instrument - if it works for them then it's the way to do things, but that is not what the OP was about - it was about manipulating the sound on playback at home, using this Foobar plugin, and for me to mess with the recording in such a way is too much.

I've tried it, and it is easy to screw the recording around to perform all sorts of horrific sounding operations on a track.
There's already been a lot of manipulation prior to the record being released for public consumption, and in my opinion there should be no requirement to further do so.

So I think that the plugin is a waste of time and energy.

Now if I were to DJ regularly and wanted to match the BPMs then maybe the plugin might have some use.........

point taken and after reading through the posts came to the same conclusion.My op was to see if people thought music sounded better or not after it had been changed to 432Hz as i wanted to check out the validity of the artical i read.

[kininigin]

Now if I were to DJ regularly and wanted to match the BPMs then maybe the plugin might have some use.........

It's the frequency that is changed by going to 432Hz not the tempo

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Oh yeah :doh:
That doesn't make sense to me though ... I thought pitch was an independent thing from tempo ...
If you slow the music down the pitch is lowered ... But you can lower pitch without adjusting the speed ...
Else this piece of software is adjusting more than the tuning of it ... Right?

[Reid Malenfant]

Oh yeah :doh:
That doesn't make sense to me though ... I thought pitch was an independent thing from tempo ...
If you slow the music down the pitch is lowered ... But you can lower pitch without adjusting the speed ...
Else this piece of software is adjusting more than the tuning of it ... Right?
The only way (i think) that you can change a 440Hz note to 432 is to slow whatever it is you are playing down slightly, just like using the pitch control on a 1210 ;)

If it's slowed down then surely the tempo has altered as well as that's a timing thing, or am i mad? :scratch: It'll only be very subltly altered, just like the tone but it'd be slower none the less...

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Eh, lower notes arent slower notes ...
What am I missing here?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

What about those toy microphones that you speak into that make the pitch of your voice change ... They don't manipulate time to do that do they ... You can change pitch without speed!

[kininigin]

What about those toy microphones that you speak into that make the pitch of your voice change ... They don't manipulate time to do that do they ... You can change pitch without speed!

there's a tecnique that is used(first i believe) by drum and bass producers called 'time stretching' which changes pitch without changing tempo.

Im not sure if the foobar plugin does this though :scratch:

Hears an example of time stretching i think was first used by goldie.You can here it at 2:43mins

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[The Vinyl Adventure]

I think I'm going mad
Is it just because you have to stretch it to make it lower ...
That makes sense ... But I have got my self in a right pickle ... Thinking about it ...
I think I might be a thick person :)

[kininigin]

I think I'm going mad
Is it just because you have to stretch it to make it lower ...
That makes sense ... But I have got my self in a right pickle ... Thinking about it ...
I think I might be a thick person :)

hang on i got it the wrong way round time stretching changes tempo without affecting pitch :doh:

Im definitely a thick person.

It can be done but i cannot remember what the technique is called

[kininigin]

had a quick look on the web and it's called pitch shifting here's a link to a site which explains the differences and has audio samples.

http://www.dspdimension.com/admin/time-pitch-overview/

[The Vinyl Adventure]

what about the thing they do to auto tune?? ...

[kininigin]

what about the thing they do to auto tune?? ...

im not sure,but i imagine it uses something similar to pitch shifting,but don't quote me on that.

[Stratmangler]

Talking of automatic tuning - have you seen this ?
http://www.fret-king.com/supermatic.html

Just look at the videos - I found it fascinating, a guitar automatically tuning itself.

Gibson guitars have also released models with autotuning, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same device as shown here.
Trevor Wilkinson has been in the guitar hardware business for a long time.;)

[kininigin]

just looked at the foobar plugin and you have seperate pitch and tempo options,so would be useful for dj's.

So you can change the pitch without changing the speed in foobar.You're increasing or decreasing the semitone value.

[kininigin]

Talking of automatic tuning - have you seen this ?
http://www.fret-king.com/supermatic.html

Just look at the videos - I found it fascinating, a guitar automatically tuning itself.

Gibson guitars have also released models with autotuning, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same device as shown here.
Trevor Wilkinson has been in the guitar hardware business for a long time.;)

Amazing,although shouldn't it be called the Wilkinson ATD HT432 ;)

[Stratmangler]

Amazing,although shouldn't it be called the Wilkinson ATD HT432 ;)

:)

[kininigin]

what about the thing they do to auto tune?? ...

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[lurcher]

Talking of automatic tuning - have you seen this ?
http://www.fret-king.com/supermatic.html

Just look at the videos - I found it fascinating, a guitar automatically tuning itself.

Gibson guitars have also released models with autotuning, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same device as shown here.
Trevor Wilkinson has been in the guitar hardware business for a long time.;)

The Gibson one is just insane, there use motorised machine heads and hexaphonic pickups. Fun to watch the videos though. I can see it being usefull if you play in a lot of different tunings, but for the price of the Gibson models you could buy a guitar for each tuning :-)

[lurcher]

To the original point about changing the pitch. I think you may be ignoring the obvious. This is done by the software, and will involve interpolating from the existing samples, and replotting the resultant waves at the new speed. Its not changing 44,100khz sample rate to a 43298 sample rate, its still 44k1 (or whatever sample rate it started with. So the interpolation will be doing more than just changing the pitch.

You can see this with a simple test. Create a 440hz tone in audacity, look at the spectrum of this, and as expected a single peak at 440Hz, Then apply the pitch change mentioned, and look again at the spectra. now we have a couple of side tones being added to the original tone at -82dB. If this happens with a simple tone, I would expect a wash of intermod distortion to be added to music or any complex signal. The effect may be pleasing, but I think its the cause of the observed difference, not the frankly magical thinking that seems to be behind the arbitrary choice of a pitch to tune instruments to.