More sound -- less need for high volume?

[magiccarpetride]

What caught my attention after all the recent upgrades to my system is a casual comment my wife threw at me; she noted the other day how now I tend to listen to music at substantially lower volumes than I used to.

And, indeed, she's right. Slowly and imperceptibly, I've been reducing the loudness in my system.

Upon reflection, I came across an explanation that, since with each upgrade I was hearing more and more details and more sound in general, that newly won 'embarrassment of the riches' situation had caused me to abandon higher listening volumes. Previously, it was as if I felt that there ought to be more sound inside the recordings, and that, in order to get it out, I felt the need to crank up the volume.

Now that I'm indeed plumbing the depths of each recording, I don't feel such an urge to crank it up, feeling all too well that now there's pretty much all there is to be heard, laid bare for me to listen and enjoy.

Any of you had similar experiences?

[Reid Malenfant]

I installed a dCS Purcell & Delius recently (look them up on the net) & i kind of understand where you are coming from ;) Never heard anything like it in all honesty, it sounds like my subwoofer just got an added one that goes even deeper. Everything else is much clearer with a much better soundstage & like yourself i can listen with as much pleasure at a lower volume than i did previously, like a freaky loudness control that really works but doesn't boost anything... Incredible would be the best discription, i have no way of understanding how music can sound this good - anything! :eyebrows:

I still like cranking it though as then it doesn't just blow your mind, it damn well melts it :lol:

Need a new CD to listen to...

[Effem]

Many years ago I was given a demonstration of how a top flight system should perform.

Firstly, it should be loud and you can still hold a normal conversation with the person next you.

Secondly, no matter where the volume control is, it does not affect the "loudness".

Lastly, go out of the room and when you shut the door behind you the sound can hardly be heard.

My pockets just aint deep enough to buy a system like that :lol:

[SPS]

Many years ago I was given a demonstration of how a top flight system should perform.

Firstly, it should be loud and you can still hold a normal conversation with the person next you.

Secondly, no matter where the volume control is, it does not affect the "loudness".

Lastly, go out of the room and when you shut the door behind you the sound can hardly be heard.

My pockets just aint deep enough to buy a system like that :lol:


thats very good advice in my view

your pockets could do it if you do a little diy...
its suprising what can be done for little money.. but you have to go into it
and explore first..

[HighFidelityGuy]

This matches my findings as I've upgraded my system. I still like to listen loud and I still have my system set at appox the same volume level as I used to but it somehow seems less "loud". I think one of the reasons for this is in lower end systems there is a lot more distortion of various kinds. This distortion actually adds to the music and makes it seem louder. Some people actually prefer this and would much rather music sounded loud rather than accurate. As you strip away the layers of distortion and hear deeper into the music the sound takes on a more effortless feel, like it's not as forced. This removes harshness and makes the listening experience less fatiguing.

I would bet that you actually still listen to your music at around the same dB level as you used to, it now just sounds quieter as there's less distortion. ;)

[radio]

What caught my attention after all the recent upgrades to my system is a casual comment my wife threw at me; she noted the other day how now I tend to listen to music at substantially lower volumes than I used to.

And, indeed, she's right. Slowly and imperceptibly, I've been reducing the loudness in my system.

Upon reflection, I came across an explanation that, since with each upgrade I was hearing more and more details and more sound in general, that newly won 'embarrassment of the riches' situation had caused me to abandon higher listening volumes. Previously, it was as if I felt that there ought to be more sound inside the recordings, and that, in order to get it out, I felt the need to crank up the volume.

Now that I'm indeed plumbing the depths of each recording, I don't feel such an urge to crank it up, feeling all too well that now there's pretty much all there is to be heard, laid bare for me to listen and enjoy.

Any of you had similar experiences?

hi there sonofagun,yes i agree with you,if its a good enough set up you should be able to here all the detail at low volume,i hate when you go for a dem and the crank up the volume to make it sound great ,i ask for the volume down and if i can here all the detail,then that hits the spot for me.regards maria

[magiccarpetride]

Many years ago I was given a demonstration of how a top flight system should perform.

Firstly, it should be loud and you can still hold a normal conversation with the person next you.

Secondly, no matter where the volume control is, it does not affect the "loudness".

Lastly, go out of the room and when you shut the door behind you the sound can hardly be heard.

My pockets just aint deep enough to buy a system like that :lol:

Intuitively, I'd agree with you. What you said there tends to match some of my findings. When playing music on a lousy boombox computer speakers, even at half the volume I'm usually playing on a big system, it gets almost impossible to carry a normal conversation with a person next to you.

Also, a lousy system tends to produce sounds that aggressively spill over into adjacent rooms, even to the outside of the house. High end systems tend to sound much gentler in that respect.

But let's look at these same issues from the perspective of live music. I get my band over for a rehearsal, and then we start playing. Even at regular levels, it would not be that easy to have a normal conversation with the people in the room.

Now isn't that how a good audio system is supposed to reproduce that event? If I record that performance and then play it back on my system, I'm expecting to hear pretty much the same impression. So, that would mean that a top flight system is capable of producing music that would actually interfere with normal conversation in the same room.

Same goes for the sound spilling out into adjacent rooms. When my band is playing live in my house, the sound does spill over into other rooms and other floors. That's real, live music for ya! Shouldn't a good audio system replicate that effect?

[Effem]

But let's look at these same issues from the perspective of live music. I get my band over for a rehearsal, and then we start playing. Even at regular levels, it would not be that easy to have a normal conversation with the people in the room.

Now isn't that how a good audio system is supposed to reproduce that event? If I record that performance and then play it back on my system, I'm expecting to hear pretty much the same impression. So, that would mean that a top flight system is capable of producing music that would actually interfere with normal conversation in the same room.

Same goes for the sound spilling out into adjacent rooms. When my band is playing live in my house, the sound does spill over into other rooms and other floors. That's real, live music for ya! Shouldn't a good audio system replicate that effect?

A band playing live in a house is mostly utilising amplification which has . . . . . . distortion, probably some feedback both from the mics and instrument pickups, room boundary reflections and plenty of other gremlins as well to contend with, so no wonder holding a conversation isn't easy.

[Alex_UK]

I have a theory that your ear/brain naturally adjusts to compensate to the volume anyway. For example, I normally listen at say 20 on my amp. If a track comes on I really like and I crank it up to say 40, after a while, it doesn't actually sound much louder - but if I stop the music, leave the room for a few minutes and then re-start the music, it damn near blows my ear drums!

Equally, after sitting in silence for a while, 20 sounds much louder when you start playing the music than it does half-an-hour into a listening session once you've become accustomed to the level. Also, (IME) the type of music being played is very important in the volume stakes - I can get away with acoustic or less "heavy" music at much higher volumes, whereas dance or rock where there are less dynamics and more compression only needs small amounts of volume increase to start becoming too loud.

Could of course all just be me and my ears/brain, or of course my system, but that's my experience/theory.

[Reid Malenfant]

Alex, what you are stating is actually a fact! there are three bones in the inner ear that vary the rate of amplification or should i say attenuation? :eyebrows:

These are known as the Malleus, Incus & Stapes & they connect from the outer eardrum to the inner eardrum at the Cochlea. If things get loud they lower the volume, if it gets quieter they increase it...

[Alex_UK]

So I'm not mad, then Mark!

I've thought about trying a pair of these for late night listening...

http://media.audiojunkies.com/hearing-aid-ear-extensions-batphones-bat-phones.jpg (http://audiojunkies.com/forum/blog/4675-batphone-ear-extensions.html)
(Click the pic to read more about them, including an audiophile who was "seriously"(?) thinking about wearing some to an audio show - it's not me - I shan't be turning up to Scalford looking like Batfink, though I will be bringing my wings that are like a shield of steel...)

Cupping your hands around your lugs has a similar effect, but your arms ache and you lose the balance everytime you take a sip of your wine! ;)

[WAD62]

Cupping your hands around your lugs has a similar effect, but your arms ache and you lose the balance everytime you take a sip of your wine! ;)

...even worse if you've got a spliff on the go too!

Another coincidental thread, I've just replaced the SMPS on my Squeezebox receiver (which feeds my Audiolab DAX) with a linear PSU (Maplins 20W), with a noticeable change in sound quality.

I've been turning the volume down since, there seems to be more detail, more to listen to.

Whether (as stated by others on this forum) I've removed some 'pollution' from my source, or the SB is performing better because of the PSU, or even a bit of both...who knows. But at £11 it's been one hell of a cheap upgrade...:)

[bobp]

Many years ago I was given a demonstration of how a top flight system should perform.

Firstly, it should be loud and you can still hold a normal conversation with the person next you.

Secondly, no matter where the volume control is, it does not affect the "loudness".

Lastly, go out of the room and when you shut the door behind you the sound can hardly be heard.

My pockets just aint deep enough to buy a system like that :lol:


wonderful advice.

[Steve H]

....Now that I'm indeed plumbing the depths of each recording, I don't feel such an urge to crank it up, feeling all too well that now there's pretty much all there is to be heard, laid bare for me to listen and enjoy. Any of you had similar experiences?

I've noticed this, too. One upgrade was from Meridian DSP5000 speakers to Sonus faber Guarneri's. Music volume went down and, especially, DVD volume went down as dialogue was so much clearer. Like Mark, I have dCS equipment which was also a step up in resolution and a step down in volume.

I was reading a review yesterday of the Pass X20 Preamp. The reviewer turned the volume right down for a conversation and noticed that he could still hear everything in proportion when he went back to listen, bass weight and all.

I think the last 10 years have seen such improvements in materials, components and collateral knowledge that designers have been able to make especial progress. Lucky us, then.

[Mr Pig]

Firstly, it should be loud and you can still hold a normal conversation with the person next you.

Ever been to an AC/DC concert? It doesn't sound like that and I want my system to sound like real life.


Lastly, go out of the room and when you shut the door behind you the sound can hardly be heard.

Would that work at a live gig? Nope. What you are describing is not realistic. It is the super-sanitised, vacant, vacuous world of 'Hi-End' Hi-Fi where all traces of life, dynamism and excitement have been surgically removed from the sound. As clean as a whistle but sadly less interesting.

The sound from a drum kit up close hurts. A Mashall amp on overdrive will take the paint off the walls. Loud is loud and if your Hi-Fi makes loud sound nice then I'm sorry but it's crap.

[Welder]

Well said that man.
Hi Fi like live...................dont make me larf :lol:

[Reid Malenfant]

Well said that man.
Hi Fi like live...................dont make me larf :lol:
John, you need to move more air my friend :eyebrows:

[Welder]

Hey Mark :)

Possibly, although I think you have a better idea than most the capabilities of my speakers ;)
If on the other hand you meant I should be out on a bike moving air instead of trying to refute some of the more ridiculous Hi Fi claims I read; well your undoubtedly right mate :mental:
As soon as I can find myself a decent Duke 996 I’ll be handing back my mates Duke Monster (assuming he’s out of prison by then) and removing a few 4 wheeled can wing mirrors on the white line route :eek:

[Reid Malenfant]

Ok, make that both then :eyebrows: In all honesty though to get realistic deep bass you need to move ridiculous amounts of air, far more than my or your speakers move as things stand right now. You also need a much bigger radiating area up to 500Hz or so to generate enough sound pressure to get to realistic levels.

Let me know if you get a 996 :respect:

[Welder]

Yes mate, I agree, you do need to move ridiculous amounts of air to reproduce say a 22” kick drum and no, I haven’t heard a speaker that gets anywhere near close.
However, its not just bass, its throughout the entire frequency range, Hi Fi just cant do it like live and if it could, you wouldn’t want to be sitting in front of it in a small room, it would just be painful and if you persisted you would have hearing damage.
There is a very good reason why after a concert when you’re mate asks you if you enjoyed it you look at him with a blank look on your face and say “WHAT?” ;)

As for the 996, its grim. I’ve been looking for months now and they’re either ex track dogs or overpriced collector’s items :(

[Mr Pig]

It depends on the live music in question. I don't think Hi-Fi can do the vast sound pressure from a big PA up close, or even the scale and dynamics of a drum kit, but if you get it right they can give you a lot of the feel and energy of a good live performance.

My main point was that loud is loud. This idea that loud should be quiet somehow is a nonsense. I've heard that type of system and whilst impressive in some ways they don't portray music is a way that reflects how it sounds in real life. You can't have a conversation with the person next to you whilst a band are playing, or even just a drum kit is playing. That's only possible if you remove all the reflections, harmonics etc and leave a pale cardboard cut-out of what the sound should be like. Which is what Hi-End Hi-Fi does.

[Welder]

Oh, that’s okay then because if I turn my modest kit up I can’t hear myself think, the glassware on the shelve attempt suicide dives and Sunny starts packing. That’s at about 20 watts.
I take it that means I don’t have “Hi End” kit :eek:
Aww, that’s really sad news :lol:

Mind you, it could just be because I live in a vibrating plasterboard box ;)

[Alex_UK]

As for the 996, its grim. I’ve been looking for months now and they’re either ex track dogs or overpriced collector’s items :(

Good luck with that... I decided a few years ago to find one, (the most beautiful looking and sounding bike ever built, IMO) - can't say I'm still looking - I gave up... :( (sprogging had something to do with it, it would just sit in the garage next to the Kwaka... :rolleyes:)

[Welder]

I blame Fogarty :(

[Alex_UK]

Yep, probably his fault! Have a great signed photo of him burning out on a 996 on my office wall, and another of Chris Walker killing tyres on a ZX-7R - he was my real racing hero, but I digress (again :rolleyes:)

[Welder]

Aff, thread drift, one of the things that makes AoS unique and enjoyable, but you’re right, best get back to slagging off Hi End kit :lolsign:

[Effem]

It depends on the live music in question. I don't think Hi-Fi can do the vast sound pressure from a big PA up close, or even the scale and dynamics of a drum kit, but if you get it right they can give you a lot of the feel and energy of a good live performance.

My main point was that loud is loud. This idea that loud should be quiet somehow is a nonsense. I've heard that type of system and whilst impressive in some ways they don't portray music is a way that reflects how it sounds in real life. You can't have a conversation with the person next to you whilst a band are playing, or even just a drum kit is playing. That's only possible if you remove all the reflections, harmonics etc and leave a pale cardboard cut-out of what the sound should be like. Which is what Hi-End Hi-Fi does.

Ah, but that is making the dangerous assumption that all folks listen to live amplified rock music and nowt else. And yes, I do know all about the dynamics and energy a drum kit can make because I used to be in a band, I also know how subtle, delicate and full of rich harmonics a drum kit can sound when played really well, not just the cacophany the rock band's "bin and tin bashers" make. :eyebrows:

So what about all the other genres of music out there that demand accuracy and tonality?

[Mr Pig]

Ah, but that is making the dangerous assumption that all folks listen to live amplified rock music and nowt else.

Not really. It's you who's saying I am. I'm just pointing out the fallacy of the qualifications for good Hi-Fi stated above. If something sounds sweet and delicate in real life then of course it would be nice if your Hi-Fi system made it sound that way too. But a band giving it beans doesn't and a decent Hi-Fi should be able to do that as well.

I'm well aware of the type of system described, and I hate them. They don't fill the room with sound, they paint a polite picture of the sound you sit and look at. On certain types of music those rules may partly apply but they're not general qualifications for high quality Hi-Fi.

[Effem]

I'm well aware of the type of system described, and I hate them. They don't fill the room with sound, they paint a polite picture of the sound you sit and look at. On certain types of music those rules may partly apply but they're not general qualifications for high quality Hi-Fi.

I don't disagree that a band in full flight supported by megawatts of amplification and speakers big enough that you could hide an elephant in are ever going to compete in "realism" within the confines of your average domestic listening environment with any hi-fi system, so the ONLY answer to that situation is to attend the live concert. The same can also safely be said of a full symphony orchestra. However, I will disagree in that well recorded studio music can also be cranked up to very high levels and still remain distortion-free so a conversation can still be heard between two people, the room is truly "full of sound" without distortion and that you can leave the room and close the door behind you and hear very little outside of the room.

Now you may think it is a bit "ersatz" that an expensive hi-fi system cannot recreate the true live "being there" experience and I do agree with you there. The trouble is though I know so many people that have serious hearing problems from that pursuit over a long period of time, so I will stick with my inadequate hi-fi system in my compromised listening room because it is ME that has full control over that volume knob :lol:

[John]

Its all about illusion but in reality its only giving you a sense of live music
But remember Illusions are quite powerful and while I still rather go to a good gig I really do enjoy a bit of illusion at home