What's the healthy pace of upgrades?

[magiccarpetride]

I went through a flurry of upgrades this month. As if in a dream, almost every upgrade pushed my system to the new heights.

I am now basking in the glory of this new, unprecedented achievement, as pretty much any familiar old song I now play sounds brand new to my ears:)

But a friend, who is an old audiophiliac, told me that it is much better to pace yourself when upgrading your stereo. He advocates going slowly, piece by piece. Give each individual upgrade a few months, learn to live with it, allow yourself time to fully evaluate it. Once you're done, move slowly into the next upgrade.

Is there any merit to this approach?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Your friend was right, but he missed out one important element, I reckon. After that period of evaluation, you should go back to how it was if you can, just to check. You may find you prefer things as they originally were, after all.

[Reid Malenfant]

Yes i'd say that there is depending on what you know & how early on you are into this game ;)

It's like a lot of things, once you get used to what certain things can do you can start to put 2 & 2 together. As a for instance i know perfectly well that a certain ARC (Audio Research Corporation) MP1 pre amp will work well in my system & better the Classe Audio DR5 i use at present along with the other kit i use.

I also know that supplying pure mains to all the front end equipment will improve things a good bit & i know that seperating out & filtering the different kit that uses SMPS & linear supplies will benefit things. To add to that properly screened mains cables will add to the mix & as it'll be fed pure 50Hz low distortion mains from a PS Audio P600 i know i'm onto a winner.

If i didn't know any of the above i'd have to at least learn it & that takes time! Time for your ears to make sure they are hearing valid differences, so in that respect your friend is 100% correct. I guess that once you know what these differences can make then you can possibly advance a tad faster & as long as you use your head it'll be in the right direction :eyebrows:

I haven't got that far to go before i don't bother on the upgrade path to be honest, well at least none i can think of :scratch: Just about to make a big leap - but not into the unknown :cool:

[Ashmore]

I think measured, steady progression is good. It takes time to fully appreciate how items affect your system (even if you have a lot of time to listen, you still need time to assimilate and reflect) and I've had a few "that sounds terrific" revelations only to find that, over time, what I initially thought 'great' becomes 'grating'.

Thus I have pledged to keep any 'significant' hardware (basically amps and speakers) in my system for a year before changing them.

There are many reasons for this self-imposed rule. Not least among them is the fact that my wife already thinks I'm a bit of a hifi addict nob,and I don't want her to be right.

I don't apply the year rule to peripherals (or whatever the correct word is). You know, cables, plugs and stuff. Partly because I think their relative cost and effect should be less significant, and partly because I can swap them without the missus knowing.

This 'rule' suits me fine just now, as I am still learning what I like. The dilemna will come when the year is up and I still really like the system. I have a feeling I may feel that way about my new Spendor SA1s, which grow more enchanting by the day... but then I've only had them a week...

[magiccarpetride]

I think measured, steady progression is good. It takes time to fully appreciate how items affect your system (even if you have a lot of time to listen, you still need time to assimilate and reflect) and I've had a few "that sounds terrific" revelations only to find that, over time, what I initially thought 'great' becomes 'grating'.

Thus I have pledged to keep any 'significant' hardware (basically amps and speakers) in my system for a year before changing them.

There are many reasons for this self-imposed rule. Not least among them is the fact that my wife already thinks I'm a bit of a hifi addict nob,and I don't want her to be right.

I don't apply the year rule to peripherals (or whatever the correct word is). You know, cables, plugs and stuff. Partly because I think their relative cost and effect should be less significant, and partly because I can swap them without the missus knowing.

This 'rule' suits me fine just now, as I am still learning what I like. The dilemna will come when the year is up and I still really like the system. I have a feeling I may feel that way about my new Spendor SA1s, which grow more enchanting by the day... but then I've only had them a week...

The 'problem' nowadays seems to be that, with the introduction of software into the music reproduction chain, the tweakoholics' path toward music nirvana is rapidly accelerating. Especially with products such as Logitech Touch, which is built on Linux, sky is the limit.

Thus, I have been able to rapidly go through a barrage of Linux-based mods that really pushed me through this rush of real, tangible improvements. You get very dizzy if, in few short days, you go through a flurry of upgrades that keep pushing your sound to the never before experienced heights.

The additional rush of endorphins comes from being aware that all these mods are free (free as in free beer and as in free speech). The crowdsourced nature of the brave new world of digital audio is extremely intoxicating.

On the other hand, my old school audiophile buddies are advocating the 'wine cellar' approach to audio, which I must admit, holds a lot of appeal to me. What they're saying is that good equipment is like good wine -- set it up carefully, and then leave it alone. Let it settle down, give it time to blossom, don't change shit!

[Jac Hawk]

The 'problem' nowadays seems to be that, with the introduction of software into the music reproduction chain, the tweakoholics' path toward music nirvana is rapidly accelerating. Especially with products such as Logitech Touch, which is built on Linux, sky is the limit.

Thus, I have been able to rapidly go through a barrage of Linux-based mods that really pushed me through this rush of real, tangible improvements. You get very dizzy if, in few short days, you go through a flurry of upgrades that keep pushing your sound to the never before experienced heights.

The additional rush of endorphins comes from being aware that all these mods are free (free as in free beer and as in free speech). The crowdsourced nature of the brave new world of digital audio is extremely intoxicating.

On the other hand, my old school audiophile buddies are advocating the 'wine cellar' approach to audio, which I must admit, holds a lot of appeal to me. What they're saying is that good equipment is like good wine -- set it up carefully, and then leave it alone. Let it settle down, give it time to blossom, don't change shit!

In that case you are both right, software upgrades if you can call them that, are instant and will sound the same in 5 years time, so you can try an upgrade and know right away if it sounds good to your ears.

However hardware upgrades are a whole different ball game, speaker drivers for instance can take a while to 'run in' , amps and cables are the same , so if you are going to do a hardware upgrade then taking it slowly is the definate way to go, partly because the sound will change as the new equipment beds in, and also because hardware upgrades tend to cost a lot.

My rule would be to do one thing at a time, software upgrades are going to be an instant thumbs up or down, hardware because it needs to bed in takes longer ;)

[Welder]

There are a few basic changes that many who have been playing with Hi Fi for a while know are likely to improve the overall sound of a system.
Mark mentions some above; clean adequate power, and I would add, room acoustics and rebuilt hardwired speaker crossovers for most speakers.
Until these things are sorted it’s hard to assess exactly what your system sounds like.
Basically, if a change in component makes a vast improvement then imo there was something badly wrong with the original system for that particular listener and environment.
The simple truth is the percentage improvement from one component to another in a well balanced system are small, very small and assessing what is better rather than different is the art of getting music out of electronics.

[magiccarpetride]

Basically, if a change in component makes a vast improvement then imo there was something badly wrong with the original system for that particular listener and environment.
The simple truth is the percentage improvement from one component to another in a well balanced system are small, very small and assessing what is better rather than different is the art of getting music out of electronics.

You seem to be talking in terms of 'objective', measurable improvements. If that's the case, I completely agree with you.

However, you must allow for the pesky little 'subjective' yardstick to enter the picture here. What may be 'objectively' a huge difference, often tends to barely make it on the 'subjective' radar. And vice versa.

Some of the, 'objectively' speaking, incredibly small improvements I made on my system made a huge, indelible impression on my poor 'subjective' psyche. These things cannot be measured, they're like good sex (or good food, in case you're prudish and thus tend to frown upon sex, copulation being sinful and all). Either you feel it, or you don't.

[Reid Malenfant]

Basically, if a change in component makes a vast improvement then imo there was something badly wrong with the original system for that particular listener and environment.
I beg to differ John :) There was nothing wrong with my system before i changed from a dual 20 bit DAC (still running 16 bit at the end of the day) to the dCS kit which effectively upsamples to 24 bit & outputs DSD (the same as SACD) to the DAC...

That made a noticable difference to everything (bass to extreme treble & soundstage etc) & at the end of the day i'm sure it could be measured objectively as well as it being very noticable subjectively ;)

I guess that the would be a pretty significant difference in the new prices of this new kit & the Monarchy audio DAC when new, that needs to be taken into account as well at the end of the day :eyebrows:

[Welder]

Differ away mate :)

Let me put it in biking terms.
A better bike on a track may only be a second, or fractions of, round the track than another.
It may brake with a metre advantage from 120 to 60.
It may out accelerate another by point something of a second from 60mph to 100.
For the rider this is a significantly better bike.
In absolute terms the differences in performance are small :eyebrows:

I believe I wrote “vast improvements” and I stand by what I wrote, if you’ve got a vast improvement then you probably had a scooter :lolsign:

Why is it Hi Fi enthusiasts are so reluctant to judge their systems and upgrades proportionally(?)

Huge improvements, night and day, order of magnitude, ffs people get a grip.
Next it will be, it was like having the band in my room.

By the way, has anyone had a band in their room?
Me and my mates had a small drum kit, a double bass, a tenor and alto sax playing in my mates room and not only did it sound awful, I mean seriously unpleasant, it suddenly becomes apparent that no Hi FI gets anywhere near that sound.

[AlanS]

Differ away mate :)

Let me put it in biking terms.
A better bike on a track may only be a second, or fractions of, round the track than another.
It may brake with a metre advantage from 120 to 60.
It may out accelerate another by point something of a second from 60mph to 100.
For the rider this is a significantly better bike.
In absolute terms the differences in performance are small :eyebrows:

I believe I wrote “vast improvements” and I stand by what I wrote, if you’ve got a vast improvement then you probably had a scooter :lolsign:

Why is it Hi Fi enthusiasts are so reluctant to judge their systems and upgrades proportionally(?)

Huge improvements, night and day, order of magnitude, ffs people get a grip.
Next it will be, it was like having the band in my room.

By the way, has anyone had a band in their room?
Me and my mates had a small drum kit, a double bass, a tenor and alto sax playing in my mates room and not only did it sound awful, I mean seriously unpleasant, it suddenly becomes apparent that no Hi FI gets anywhere near that sound.

The sanity clause.
It doesn't sound so impressive though.

[magiccarpetride]

Me and my mates had a small drum kit, a double bass, a tenor and alto sax playing in my mates room and not only did it sound awful, I mean seriously unpleasant, it suddenly becomes apparent that no Hi FI gets anywhere near that sound.

I hear you, I've been in similar situations. This means one, and only one thing: these musicians in your mate's room sucked. If musicians are playing great, there's no way that they could ever sound awful (or, 'seriously unpleasant' as you put it), even in a very cramped small room.

[Welder]

Well that’s not very nice is it Alex given the one on the alto sax was me :(:(

[magiccarpetride]

Well that’s not very nice is it Alex given the one on the alto sax was me :(:(

Ooops, sorry, I though you were just an innocent bystander!

But I know what you're talking about. I am rehearsing regularly with my band in my house, and when we're having an off day, the sound is just unbearable. But every now and then we manage to click in, and then everything sounds gorgeous.

I think one needs to feel inspired in order to make pleasant sounds.

[Reid Malenfant]

Differ away mate :)

Let me put it in biking terms.
A better bike on a track may only be a second, or fractions of, round the track than another.
It may brake with a metre advantage from 120 to 60.
It may out accelerate another by point something of a second from 60mph to 100.
For the rider this is a significantly better bike.
In absolute terms the differences in performance are small :eyebrows:

I believe I wrote “vast improvements” and I stand by what I wrote, if you’ve got a vast improvement then you probably had a scooter :lolsign:

Why is it Hi Fi enthusiasts are so reluctant to judge their systems and upgrades proportionally(?)

Huge improvements, night and day, order of magnitude, ffs people get a grip.
Next it will be, it was like having the band in my room.

By the way, has anyone had a band in their room?
Me and my mates had a small drum kit, a double bass, a tenor and alto sax playing in my mates room and not only did it sound awful, I mean seriously unpleasant, it suddenly becomes apparent that no Hi FI gets anywhere near that sound.
John, you need to calm down m8 :D

Please read my previous post again & tell me where i mentioned any huge improvements, night & day or order of magnitude?

No, i can't see that either :ner:

You are sounding suspiciously like some evangelical preacher that refuses to accept that there can be any differences between anything...

I mean did you just make your speakers weigh so much simply so a burglar couldn't nick them? :eyebrows:

[Alex_UK]

Mark, John is probably referring to Alex (Magiccarpetrides) when he is talking about "Night & day" - Alex is rather, how can I put it - "effervescent" in his descriptions on the likes of a cable change, the Gator upgrade etc.

John is of course more than capable of speaking for himself (and will, I'm sure!) but I had taken his posts that he was referring to Alex not your good self.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'm with John I'm afraid ... I find many enthusiastic comments a bit ott ... But as I said before ... I just apply a relativity filter based on how much that person says those things ... If someone says night and day every other day then you can pretty much guess it doesn't have a lot of meaning
Night and day/order of magnitude are definately the best though.

And I agree put a bass amp, 2 guitar amps and a drum kit in a room the size of my lounge and there is no way I'd enjoy it ...
But, someone gently playing an acoustic guitar ... Well I don't see why my hifi couldn't come close to that in some respects ... But it would always sound different to the live version I think

[Reid Malenfant]

Mark, John is probably referring to Alex (Magiccarpetrides) when he is talking about "Night & day" - Alex is rather, how can I put it - "effervescent" in his descriptions on the likes of a cable change, the Gator upgrade etc.
If that's the case i'll take back the preacher bit :eyebrows: It just got me as it was straight after my post - sorry John ;)

[SPS]

my daughter and her mate practice once a fortnight in our lounge, they play accoustic and electric guitar, roland electric piano and vocals ( my daughters getting to be quite a singer),

they usually play with electric guitar and mic going through quite a decent marshall amp

a few weeks ago i connected their kit through a couple of single ended 4 watt akai valve amps, and then through my open baffle/horn speakers..
what a transformation in sound compared to the marshall,
better than just about everything amplified i ever heard live... i know that's quite a statement.

it says to me there is good, and not so good in everything,

the trouble with most hi fi, is its more in the 'not so good' sector,
and whats worse, is the folks who go on about how good that kits is.. how does one tell the difference between hype and reality?

the web is full of people who set up is the best thing since sliced bread... that is untill they hear something better...
thats the great thing about meets, is that you can hear for youself and not be fooled.

about 12 years ago i built my 'final' px4 valve amp and made my last pair of lowther back loaded horns, in my view nothing in the hi fi shop touched them..
that was it.. my ultimate system.. what could be better ?,

i used that system for about 6 or 7 years, happy in my ignorance.

the audio meets i attended then, really changed my view, there were elements of my system's sound had not realised where not up to it, and over the last few years my systems sound has really changed for the better, just by listening to other kit and peoples comments ( or lack of them) and then doing something about it.

... now i know that i'm still on the upgrade/improvement path... and that i'm enjoying it. and i hope there still a long way to go...

many of the guys on this forum have been around and have experenced each others sound which is great in my mind..

but i remember someone telling me is hard to visit someones house, drink their beer and tell them their sound ain't very good...

[Marco]

Excellent post, Steve :)

As you know, like you, I've travelled around a bit listening to other people's systems, including attending the DIY meetings at Owston, and like you say, it really is an education.

For me, it's very useful to do this, as the only way you'll know if what you've got is genuinely good is by hearing other people's kit, particularly that which in some areas you might expect to be better than yours. You have to get outside of your comfort zone!

Exposing your gear to such scrutiny generally always results in something useful being learned - I've had a few revelations like that over the years, and it's one of the reasons why I own such a good system now. But you have to be quite a confident and resilient person to handle any potential shocks.....! ;)

The Scalford Hall shows, in that respect, are particularly informative, as one gets to hear systems owned by genuine enthusiasts, much of it DIY and somewhat 'off the wall', and not the boring, same old same old, mainstream bull peddled by commercial manufacturers at the usual hi-fi shows.

To that end, I'm looking forward to this year's show next month, and what kind of results we can achieve in a different (smaller) room, and crucially, with what's likely to be stand-mount speakers, a rather large departure from the Lockwoods we used last year. Having produced an excellent sound for the last two years it could all go tits up this time, but that's all part of the fun, and the learning curve I mentioned earlier - so bring it on :cool:

Marco.

[Welder]

Before anyone replaces my apparent evangelical collar with a rope noose all I’m suggesting is some proportion………….not really unreasonable :doh:
Most of us are trying to learn a bit here, not to read system bragging or inflated claims :rolleyes:

I’m sorely tempted to pack my sax and nip around to a few and give them a blast and then say “lets hear your Hi Fi sound like that then” :eek:

I have never heard any Hi Fi come even remotely close to the sound of live instruments (drum kit, woodwind, strings, brass and voice) in the same space; loudspeakers at the end of electronics just can’t do it and I don’t care what the system is :ner:

So, the “like live” descriptions are total nonsense. Even most “enthusiastic” Hi Fi enthusiasts who play in the band admit this; six of us, all with stereo systems of differing levels of fidelity and cost.
What we all agree is that amplified/electronic instruments can sound bearably similar if you can stand the volume in a confined space.

I’m somewhere in the middle with regard to fidelity, interestingly the drummer has the least “Hi Fi” stereo system, as he says, “If I hit a cymbal hard with the stick handle in a room your ears will curl”; he doesn’t really bother with Hi Fi :lol:
The guy who plays the keyboards has what we all admit is the highest fidelity kit but we’re talking a lot of money and more importantly mod time.

This is an interesting quote from Marco and something I would in general agree with.

“For me, it's very useful to do this, as the only way you'll know if what you've got is genuinely good is by hearing other people's kit, particularly that which in some areas you might expect to be better than yours. You have to get out with of your comfort zone!”

My stereo isn’t what I would call Hi Fidelity. Don’t get me wrong, it makes a very pleasant sound, far better than many shop bought systems I’ve heard, but unfortunately, not as good as some of the better set up record based and file based systems I’ve heard (sry CD guys, I’ve not heard a good CD setup yet, cant see the point in them) with, I’m afraid to say, mostly valve amps, the Boulder 865 integrated being one exception I know reasonably well and from a brief listen the NAD M2. I’m sure there are others.

It was hearing a friend’s file base system for example that finally made me give up on record players. Granted I didn’t have a top class deck (modified Thorens TD160S, Haddcock arm, Decca London cartridge) but his file based system sounded better. While I haven’t got to his standard yet I’m working on it :mental:

Back to proportion; I’ve been listening to some Dacs. I’ve heard a few now, mostly under the two grand mark and to my ears while the difference is significant between say the basic HRT (£130)and a Bryston BDA1 (£2000) it isn’t gobsmackingly awesomely better.
In fact, the only Dac I’ve heard so far that has impressed me as being a worthwhile upgrade (noticeably better than my HRT Pro at a reasonable price) has been the Buffalo Dac11, say £300 at its basic configuration but you’ve got to build it.

So, upgrades; sure, spend £30000 and you may get say a 10% improvement over spending £5000. Spend an extra £500 on an upgrade for that £5000 system and I doubt you’ll get a 1% overall improvement. To show up on a forum shouting about night and day improvements is a bit silly imo.
The only way I know to get major improvements at a reasonable cost is to modify/build to your ears, your environment and your wallet.

Ooops, twisted my bloody ankle stepping off the lecturn again ;)


Oh arr, I recently got asked very politely I might add how I managed to write so much; (that’s polite for how come you’ve got such a big gob isn’t it) I can touch type at 40+ wpm

[magiccarpetride]

Mark, John is probably referring to Alex (Magiccarpetrides) when he is talking about "Night & day" - Alex is rather, how can I put it - "effervescent" in his descriptions on the likes of a cable change, the Gator upgrade etc.

Well, in my defence, I'd like to put it to you that I treat my listening experiences the same way I treat my culinary experiences. I went on a culinary tour in New Orleans once, and my god, I couldn't stop raving about it. Many things I've tried while there just blew me away -- it's the type of food you cannot really get anywhere else (believe me, I've tried).

But does the fact that I was so super effervescent invalidate my findings? And who's the final arbiter to judge me on theses terms? It's just that I enjoy that type of food, and I'm not holding it back.

So same goes for my audio upgrade path. Who's to judge, who is it out there to tell me "listen Alex, you're full of shit, these enjoyable experiences that you're going through are not really there!"

And again, it's not all rosy for me. I've had my share of making expensive upgrades only to realize that there aren't any detectable differences to the sound quality. Or, worse yet, the upgrade has degraded the sound.

I'm not sure why are subjective evaluations totally OK in the realm of wine tasting, beer tasting, food tasting, but are frowned upon when it comes to music playback tasting?

[Reid Malenfant]

I'm sure changes are there Alex, it's possibly just a question of how much difference there really is :scratch: In reality no-one can measure this & while some upgrade might seem to be how shall i put it - incredible there might be many more "incredibles" just down the road ;)

Lets just say that you can hear a noticeable difference if something sounds more "there" & attempt to describe it, no point in upsetting John any more as he appears to be getting a little overheated :eyebrows: Besides he's just hurt his ankle after stepping down from the lecturn so give the guy a break :cool:

Best not to mention what it is either as name dropping just won't do either apparently :scratch:

You hear a difference & it improves your listening experience then great is what i say at the end of the day...

[magiccarpetride]

You hear a difference & it improves your listening experience then great is what i say at the end of the day...

Yeah, and I also enjoy reading other people's findings and cries of joy. The joy of sharing!

I'd hate to see this camaraderie be squashed by some humbag inmates who get easily upset any time they hear someone screaming in bliss while having an unstoppable audio orgasm!

[Ashmore]

...unstoppable audio orgasm

Eeeeuuuwww - filthy devil ;)

[keiths]

unstoppable audio orgasm!

Thought I'd wandered into the "Three words daily" thread for a moment there.

[Alex_UK]

Thought I'd wandered into the "Three words daily" thread for a moment there.

:lol:

Don't think Alex posts in there - he should, might clean the place up a bit, and add some much needed intelligence! :D

[AlanS]

I'm sure changes are there Alex, it's possibly just a question of how much difference there really is :scratch: In reality no-one can measure this & while some upgrade might seem to be how shall i put it - incredible there might be many more "incredibles" just down the road ;)

Lets just say that you can hear a noticeable difference if something sounds more "there" & attempt to describe it, no point in upsetting John any more as he appears to be getting a little overheated :eyebrows: Besides he's just hurt his ankle after stepping down from the lecturn so give the guy a break :cool:

Best not to mention what it is either as name dropping just won't do either apparently :scratch:

You hear a difference & it improves your listening experience then great is what i say at the end of the day...
Sound comment but I doubt Magic will alter a jot.


Yeah, and I also enjoy reading other people's findings and cries of joy. The joy of sharing!

I'd hate to see this camaraderie be squashed by some humbag inmates who get easily upset any time they hear someone screaming in bliss while having an unstoppable audio orgasm!

Nowt wrong with sharing findings it is what many of us are here for, I know I am. I am also with Welder and Hamish who by your comment above are deemed humbags (or it that humbugs).

Statements like "totally blown away", "night and day" tell me about you but nothing really about the change you are raving about other than you liked it (a lot).

It doesn't upset me, it makes for amusing reading, but I prefer to share useful information rather than hear of a persons emotional experience. Too subjective man. It also leaves me with a distinct impression I would not experience the same degree of ecstasy if I were able to hear before and after.

My audio orgasm as you choose to describe it comes from the music not some equipment change.

Please don't feel the slightest bit squashed but you may find more contributions to your threads if you were to use a language that is closer to that which the majority use.

Totally blown away if you are outside in Queensland, Australia with their cyclonic weather.

[WAD62]

Hold the front page...North Americans use the English language in a less reserved way than Brits ;)

Let the lad have his fun :)

[AlanS]

Hold the front page...North Americans use the English language in a less reserved way than Brits ;)

Let the lad have his fun :)

Your thoughts literally blow me away, see me flying down the street waving. There are plenty of North Americans on AoS and their english use is sometimes different but rarely in a so less reserved way. :king:

[magiccarpetride]

Too subjective man.

That's by design. One thing I find very perplexing is how relaying subjective experiences and states is deemed improper in audio circles, while it seems totally acceptable in other areas of pure sensual enjoyment (i.e. wine tasting, beer tasting, cheese tasting, cigar aficionado jerk circles, and so on).

People, there is nothing, absolutely nothing objective about experiencing music reproduced through speakers. It's all purely emotional. There is also nothing useful about it, it's just fun.

Some of you guys need to loosen up a bit, and maybe go out every once in a while. Get a life, go out, meet people, learn what it means to be emotionally engaged, to relay your feeling to others. Then you'll be able to relax and take my idiotic ravings for what they are -- just one guy's giddy journey into penetrating the music he loves.

Edit: I wanted to add 'pussy tasting' to my list above, but decided to abstain, as I didn't want people labelling me as being too vulgar. So, the prudish among you can breathe a sigh of relief, I promise I won't be using the 'pussy tasting' phrase in here;)

[WAD62]

Your thoughts literally blow me away, see me flying down the street waving. There are plenty of North Americans on AoS and their english use is sometimes different but rarely in a so less reserved way. :king:


Edit; After the last post he's on his own...

[audio39]

Q.) What's the healthy pace of upgrades?

A.) Clearly not the pace I've been using!! :eek:

[John]

The trouble with improvements its an emotional response I am certainly guilty off this