Ali Tait visit to Gazjam Towers.. [Archive]

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Gazjam

26-01-2011, 18:59

Ali was good enough to lug some kit in the car and come over the other day to let me compare the Mini-T amp I had on loan with the Bantham Gold “better than Tripath” amps he had.
I’m looking to change my amp, and being the bargain hunter I am I was happy to latch on to the whole class D Tripath amp movement – much amp for little money!
Ali uses his two Banthams bi-amped into Wad valve Preamps/ Behringer DCX2496 Ultradrive Pro crossover. This all in turn drives the BIGGEST set of muh’fugin speakers that my eyes have clapped onto :), a twin 15” woofer open baffle design.
So the Agenda of the day was:

1. Compare Mini-T to Bantham
In my system, just swap the Mini-T for the Bantham to give me a chance to hear how good the Mini-T was in comparison with something similar. I say similar…the Bantham is 3 times the price, a factor that comes into play later.
The Mini-T had already bettered my trusty Cambridge Azur 640 in my system, a wee bit less bass but far better mid and detail and more “high end” sounding. Much lower noise floor too.
Ali wanted to know I think if he had spent his cash wisely on the Banthams and not just got a pair of Mini-T’s!

RESULT
First impressions...? The Mini-T is beaten (but not by a huge amount) on bass. There’s more of it, goes deeper and adds a more solid foundation to the music. The Bantham has two “gain” settings, the first higher quality one being quite low volume wise compared to the Mini-T’s 25w a side, and a 2nd setting giving a 6db boost…which is how we did the comparison.
Overall, I'd say the Bantham was the better amp.
Better in some areas (particularly the bass), but maybe not QUITE as good as the Mini-T in more transparent midrange and insight , but considering that the Bantham costs 3 times as much BUT DOES NOT SOUND 3 TIMES BETTER - I'd go for the T-Amp.

Maybe if I had more transparent speakers (my AE’s are nearly 14 years old and not known for being transparent) the difference in amps would be more apparent…but somehow I don’t think so.
The Mini-T has been used with some pretty esoteric speakers and its qualities have shone through.
It depends of course on your system and preferred audio flavour of course, but the Mini-T held its own.
In the context of Ali’s fantastic system, the Banthams were the better buy.
Me? I’d probably buy (and will) the Mini-T...far better value for money, Ali and I both agreed on this.

2. Set up Ali’s System and let me hear it
Once all the kit was set up we settled down to listen to a few tracks.
Jeezus...these speakers were amazing in comparison to mine!
You know that way where you think your kit is good…then you hear something better? :stalks:

A big part of the improvement was in the design of the speakers…these open baffle speakers have NO box colouration, no sense of the sound from a box. The back wall just had music coming from it.
I had expected them to be bass monsters because of the twin 15” woofers…but no actually.
The bass went low, but in no way subsonic. It was tight and had great “bounce” to it…helping music boogie along.
What got me about these speakers (and Ali’s setup in general I guess), was the huge “wall of sound” it created.
A couple of tracks gave us real WTF! Moments, the kind where you’re really taken aback by what you’re hearing?
I wanted to try the setup through my Virgin Media box, as well as my DVD player; both playing through the modded Caiman.
I put on the Led Zeppelin DVD and turned the wick up….think it was Moby Dick live that was on, and the amount of air getting shifted when the drums kicked in? Wow.
Also, I stuck on “The Eagles: Hell Freezes Over” DVD, the track “Get Over It”?
Again I turned the wick up, and the feeling of scale and space around the acoustic was amazing.
I’m sure the electronics (particularly the WAD valve Pre) had a lot to do with that, but I’m sure the design of the speakers played a big part too.
Ali had said that the open baffle designs image really really well, second only to a good pair of electrostatics, and having head them I was reluctant to help Ali pack them away!
Maybe not QUITE such a massive pair though (See pictures :)!)…though the light wood colour did fit in well with the décor!
The main outcome of the visit I have to say is that Ali has opened my eyes to the benefits of DIY. The amount of kit you can get for your money is fantastic. His speakers and the WAD Pre-Amps are prime examples.
Along with my own DIY tinkering (albeit at a tiny scale) with the Beresford, I can really see the benefits of this approach, in fact after this I’ll have to think long and hard about buying something “stock” from a shop.

SOME INTERESTING DISCOVERYS…

Ali brought over a bunch of cables as well as a linear power supply for the Squeezebox Touch.
We compared the Linear PSU with the stock one with my Touch…really significant improvement.
No if’s, buts or mibbays…we both heard it right away.
A lot of folk say they don’t make a difference because of the Touch’s internal switching regulators etc.? Nonsense. Get one…it improves things, about the same level to me as fitting a linear supply onto my Beresford Dac.

Also, Ali brought over one of the Belkin interconnects that’s doing the rounds on the forum just now? We compared them directly to the mark Grand HD1000’s I use, and you know what, it’s pretty close.
£5 as compared to £75? Uhm.. :scratch:
To me I’m happy to have bought the MG – it’s a better cable – but like the Mini-T/Bantham comparison, price difference doesn’t directly translate to sound quality improvements.

Also, Ali had brought over one of Mike Homar’s digital interconnect cables for me to try?
We found that made an improvement too…
So all digital cables AREN’T the same…:ner:
So a big hats off to Ali for taking the trouble to come over and let me hear his fantastic system, and thanks too for the “wire mod” work he did on my Beresford.

A return visit to his gaff is in the works as well as a visit to the next DIY meet – so it’s all good.

Some Piccies:
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/505/speakersb.th.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/i/speakersb.jpg/)
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3370/p1000569v.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/i/p1000569v.jpg/)
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1/p1000568r.th.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/i/p1000568r.jpg/)
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7899/p1000560f.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/p1000560f.jpg/)
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9615/p1000559r.th.jpg (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/p1000559r.jpg/)
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7006/p1000557y.th.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/p1000557y.jpg/)
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2102/p1000555l.th.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/i/p1000555l.jpg/)
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7169/openbafflespeakers.th.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/openbafflespeakers.jpg/)
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/1492/mefeetuplazysod.th.jpg (http://img412.imageshack.us/i/mefeetuplazysod.jpg/)
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8282/kitkh.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/i/kitkh.jpg/)
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8192/hookingupthespeakers.th.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/i/hookingupthespeakers.jpg/)

Cheers.

John

26-01-2011, 19:51

Sounds like you guys had a great session
Open baffles create magic when done right and need not cost silly money

slate

26-01-2011, 20:00

So I guess that we will hear no more from Gaz until he comes back from "hibernation" covered in saw dust

Covenant

26-01-2011, 20:02

I must confess to knowing very little about open baffle design. Are there manufacturers who produce them as well as the DIY route? My own speakers dont have a cabinet as such, just four poles with fabric stretched around and they are great at imaging.
Is it possible to produce a design which is accurate without mega bucks testing equipment?

Gazjam

26-01-2011, 20:03

Jerry,
Ali's yer man for this...

Welder

26-01-2011, 20:04

Thank you very much Gary :)
A very honest assessment and well written review :clap:

I know it’s a bitch when someone turns up with some kit that trashes your treasured stereo. It’s happened to me a few times. Still, after I had finished crying I at least I knew which direction to go in :bulb:
Thanks as well to Ali.
Unfortunately I’m not much wiser about what to get for my kit.
I know I want the NAD M2 but the truth is I can’t afford it, so it’s a question of what to take a punt at that I can afford.
(ordering a buffalo Dac11 hasn’t helped :doh:)

Marco

26-01-2011, 20:37

John

26-01-2011, 20:57

Jerry
I think one of the best links around building open baffles is Darrel article in enjoy the music. There are many kits I only have experience with the Hawthrone but people Like Steve (SPS) have a lot more experience then me, but if I can do it anyone can.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/1108/hawthorne_audio_sterling.htm I use the cheaper Silver Iris version The companys website has a great speaker building forum with lots of friendly advice but between Ali Clive and Steve you have some members with great experience so sure plenty of others to help on AOS too. If you wish I add some links of other manufactures that make DIY speakers let me know

Gazjam

26-01-2011, 21:05

Yo dudes,

Looks like you guys had a good time, and that Ali let you hear some proper hi-fi equipment for a change! :eyebrows: ;)

Ali, your OBs look gorgeous, and no doubt sound the business!

We should encourage more of these bake-offs, as it's an excellent way of meeting people you chat to on AoS, as well as hearing some different kit.

The learning experience can often be profound, and above all, it's good fun! :cool:

Marco.

Hey Marco,
have to 2nd your comments about the bake-off's mate.

Its a great way to hear new kit and chill out with like minded bods.
Ali's opened my eyes to DIY stuff as I said, AND I got to hear an active speaker system, something I was always curious about.

Recommended.

So...where's me chequebook...? :scratch: :)

Oh, another thing I hadn't thought about till Ali came over was room treatment? First thing he noticed was that my room sounded quite "live", and would benefit from some damping somewhere...
The OB's were indeed gorgeous, if not a bit of a shock size wise! As open baffles though they didn't dominate the room the way a massive, say, set of Tannoy's might have?
Ali thought they interacted with my room a bit better, particulalrly in the bass region...so I think he had some food for thought too.

Jonboy

26-01-2011, 21:14

We should encourage more of these bake-offs, as it's an excellent way of meeting people you chat to on AoS, as well as hearing some different kit.

The learning experience can often be profound, and above all, it's good fun! :cool:

Marco.

I 3rd it, also a good way of discovering new music

Covenant

26-01-2011, 21:38

Ali Tait

26-01-2011, 22:01

Cheers Gaz, I enjoyed the visit too. Just so everyone knows, the OB's were built by Steve (Aquapihrana) for which I swapped My Fostex MLTL's.

I was particularly interested in comparing the mini t to the bantam golds, as I wanted to find out if I had wasted my money. I was glad to hear I hadn't. As Gary says, the golds are three times the price but not three times better, in fact I would agree that the mini t's are probably better SPPV, but the golds ARE better. Given I wasn't familiar with Gary's speakers, and we would have needed two amps to compare directly on the OB's, I can't give a detailed assessment, but to my ears the Golds sounded better. Not a great deal in it though.

Another interesting comparison was the linear supply on the Touch. Gary asked me before we tried it if I thought it was an improvement, and I couldn't answer as I had never tried the SMPS back in to compare. Well, all I can say is, anyone who thinks a linear supply won't make any difference to a Touch should have been there. The difference was not subtle.

It was a happy coincidence that the OB's seemed to sound even better at Gary's than they do at home, in fact I was quite taken aback at how good they were. This may have been partly due to the fact that we were listening quite near-field as we had them in front of Gary's, from say about 2 meters, whereas at home I'm about 4-5 meters away. This may be why Marco likes the sound of his Tannoys- there's something to be said for listening to large drivers in the near field!

Another possible contributing factor may be the Soundcheck mods Gary has on his Touch. I'm hoping it's this so I will get a similar improvement when I do mine!

As for cables, I wired the system up all with the Belkin cables, and very good it sounded too. We tried swapping the MG's out that fed Gary's Touch from his Beresford for the Belkin, and to my ears I preferred the Belkin. The MG had a slightly more "solid" midrange, but the Belkins were more open and airy at the top end, giving to my ears a better sense of space and acoustic.Quite a surprise I thought, given their respective prices. To be fair though, the MG were 1m and the Belkin 2m, so this may account for some of the difference.

Overall, I was really surprised with how good the system sounded at Gary's. Whether this is due to the rooms or the Souncheck mods remains to be seen, but the day really showed how good the golds and the OB's are. I think we got a superb sound all round. Indeed, Gary commented that we were getting the "You are there" thing to an extent that he's only ever heard twice before, both times at dems of very pricey kit. It just shows what can be done with a bit of DIY,modding and some great value kit. I think it also showed how good the Bantam kit is too. I'd like to hear the monoblocks now!

Just leaves saying thanks to Gary for his hospitality, and for the beer and pizza!

There will be a return match at my place where he's going to help me set up my Touch on a network and do the Soundcheck mods, once I have run the cables that is!

Clive

26-01-2011, 22:18

Interesting stuff!

Ali, what's the make up of your OB's? B200 and a couple of Eminence 15" or 18" basses? What sort of sensitivity do you reckon they are?

Cheers,

Clive

Ali Tait

26-01-2011, 22:25

Yes Clive, one B200 and two Eminence Alphas per side. Reckon about 95dB or so.

Ali Tait

26-01-2011, 22:26

Oh yes, I fitted some Planet10 phase plugs to the B200's. A worthwhile improvement at the top end.

Clive

26-01-2011, 22:27

Yes Clive, one B200 and two Eminence Alphas per side. Reckon about 95dB or so.
Should be about right, the B200 is rated at 96db but room interaction will have an influence too.

Stratmangler

26-01-2011, 22:40

Looks like a good session chez Gazza:)

You coming down to the next Owston meet Gary ?
Be good to see you there.

Are you going to be bringing the OBs Ali ?

Ali Tait

26-01-2011, 22:48

Yes, I could bring them, though they won't stack up to Steve's!

Gazjam

26-01-2011, 23:47

Looks like a good session chez Gazza:)

You coming down to the next Owston meet Gary ?
Be good to see you there.

Are you going to be bringing the OBs Ali ?

Hey Strat
Yup. I fancy coming along, hearing Ali's OBs has got me curious about what else is out there! :)

Marco

26-01-2011, 23:56

Hahahaha... The rot's gonna set in now! :eyebrows:

Gaz, trust me, your current system is on borrowed time and will soon feature strange glowing bottles and even stranger speakers to match! ;)

Marco.

Gazjam

27-01-2011, 00:17

Blame Mr Tait and his OB's for that! :)

Ali Tait

27-01-2011, 04:29

Yep, you're on the slippery slope now...

aquapiranha

27-01-2011, 10:18

Hi Ali. I am glad you like the OB's. I may build some more one day, maybe a little differently next time, who knows? Anyway I am so pleased you are enjoying them!

anyone who wants to build the same just needs 2 X 46" by 20" BB ply 19MM (doubled up for stiffness) and 4 X 15" Eminence Alpha's plus a pair of Visaton B200's... couldn't be simpler!

Steve :)

Puffin

27-01-2011, 11:46

Ali. The crossover for the OB's is simply the Behringer?

Rob.

SPS

27-01-2011, 12:25

steady on you lot... you'll be turning the art of sound into a diy forum

thanks for the kind comments about my speakers... at present all i can hear is faults with them, i've not stopped messing with different speakers and drivers since christmas.

i have a pair of accousta's with pm6c drivers, they make a very good sound
and sound great on a couple of watts, i think they do rock well??

but the open baffles along with quality drivers transform the sound,

its easy to go to far with speakers or amps.. its about matching the resolution,
very good speakers will show up the amp if it not up to it..
I've got a TA2020 amp, its not very good compared to my px 4 or px25 amps
but for what it cost.... it still makes good music.. just a bit grey sounding and lifeless and a lack of detail,..there are two positives with it, works of a battery and it don't hum like my amps...

there are lots of ways of building baffles, i've gone through it again this year building another pair, and i've built at least 1/2 a dozen pairs this last 3 years

I still think H frames are the way to go..or to put it another way.. wave guides front and back ..
cheers
steve

Ali Tait

27-01-2011, 12:28

Ali. The crossover for the OB's is simply the Behringer?

Rob.

Yes indeed Rob.

Ali Tait

27-01-2011, 12:29

steady on you lot... you'll be turning the art of sound into a diy forum

thanks for the knind comments about my speakers... at present all i can hear is faults with them, i've not stopped messing with different speakers and drivers since christmas.

i have a pair of accousta's with pm6c drivers, they make a very good sound
and sound great on a couple of watts, i think they do rock well??

but the open baffles along with quality drivers transform the sound,

its easy to go to far with speakers or amps.. its about matching the resolution,
very good speakers will show up the amp if it not up to it..
I've got a TA2020 amp, its not very good compared to my px 4 or px25 amps
but for what it cost.... it still makes good music.. just a bit grey sounding and lifeless and a lack of detail,..there are two positives with it, works of a battery and it don't hum like my amps...

there are lots of ways of building baffles, i've gone through it again this year building another pair, and i've built at least 1/2 a dozen pairs this last 3 years

I still think H frames are the way to go..or to put it another way.. wave guides front and back ..
cheers
steve

Your OB's get better every time I hear them steve.

jandl100

27-01-2011, 14:23

Sounds like an interesting day!

I don't suppose you tried a bi-amped setup with the Mini-T on the mids/treble and the Bantham on the bass?

Gazjam

27-01-2011, 15:39

Fraid not Jerry..never thought of that one!

Ali Tait

27-01-2011, 16:38

I did consider trying it, but I thought without any way of measuring, it would have been difficult to gain match the two amps, so I never mentioned it.

bigmarty

29-01-2011, 18:33

SPS

29-01-2011, 21:39

Hi Folks,

I see the original Mini T T-Amp HiFi Amplifier + 2A PSU TA2020is now available on ebay again, just ordered one..........:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mini-T-T-Amp-HiFi-Amplifier-2A-PSU-TA2020-UK-SELLER_W0QQitemZ180618781768QQcategoryZ3280QQcmdZV iewItemQQ_trksidZp5197.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DLVI%26 itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3 D6715038040036154529#ht_4893wt_1141

Marty

you can buy the insides from around £15 from china

i bought it for the caravan, straight off the battery,
I have quite a heavy valve amp i use in there,
To be honest i'd be better off building a smaller valve amp.. its not really good enough in my view.

bigmarty

30-01-2011, 10:27

you can buy the insides from around £15 from china

i bought it for the caravan, straight off the battery,
I have quite a heavy valve amp i use in there,
To be honest i'd be better off building a smaller valve amp.. its not really good enough in my view.

:(

SPS

30-01-2011, 14:28

:(

to be fair my amps amps are quite good and would be very expensive to build from scatch,
most would be very pleased, and the extra you have paid include a nice case and connectors etc,

its still very good value...

Ali Tait

30-01-2011, 15:13

Yes, I think by the time you've bought a case and connectors and a power supply, you're probably cheaper just buying the amp. They are a good little amp, and great value for money, assuming your speakers are an easy enough load to suit.

bigmarty

30-01-2011, 15:56

to be fair my amps amps are quite good and would be very expensive to build from scatch,
most would be very pleased, and the extra you have paid include a nice case and connectors etc,

its still very good value...

:)

realysm42

02-03-2012, 09:11

What are the disadvantages to open baffle design?

Dominic Harper

02-03-2012, 09:36

They do need a bit of free space to work in, so if you have a small room you may have problems. Mine need to be about 1 mtr from rear wall.

realysm42

02-03-2012, 09:46

Ah that's a shame, after all of the good things I (briefly) read this morning I was quite interested.

Ali Tait

02-03-2012, 09:49

I find mine will work quite well about 18 inches from the rear wall, and I find OB's in general much more immune to room effects than box speakers.

The main disadvantage to me is physical size, you need surface area on the baffle to get an even bass response, unless you use DSP to replace the missing bass.

LittleTone

02-03-2012, 12:37

Gaz,

If you ever consider changing the Rega RS3; i'd be interested

Tony

wee tee cee

02-03-2012, 18:36

Ali had me over for a session...The open baffles are sonically a breath of fresh air. They sounded to me, the least coloured speakers I had heard. Bass guitars/double bass were the most realistic I had ever heard. Richard NVA that used to be on here described speakers as boxes within a box, confliction of sonic character on each other. The OBs to my ears eliminated 50% of the fight. We had a great time comparing subtle differences between wires and DACs. The OBs are a definite aspiration of mine. If you are able to build some I can endorse their ability.
Tony.

Ali Tait

02-03-2012, 18:44

Thanks Tony, yes it was an enjoyable day. The baffles are sounding even better now I have some valve amps driving the B200's.

OB's IMHO offer by far the best SPPV in the loudspeaker stakes. Mine have four Eminence Alpha 15" which are about £50 each, and a pair of Visaton B200's which are about £200. All you need then is some wood for the baffles. I've heard many pricey commercial offerings that don't get anywhere near them sonically. Well done to Steve (Aquapiranha) whom I got them from.

wee tee cee

02-03-2012, 18:55

need to ask, what are the valve amps?

Ali Tait

02-03-2012, 19:43

PP EL84 monoblocks.

realysm42

02-03-2012, 19:59

So Ali, your speakers are about £600? And they're getting ratings like the above?

*ponders*

Ali Tait

02-03-2012, 20:15

Well folk that have heard them seem to like them. They are different to box speakers though, and give a different sound, I think mainly due to two factors, firstly that there is no box to sing along with the music, and secondly, because of their dipole nature they present sound much more like you hear at a live event.

Using a full range driver from 200Hz up as mine do is another good thing I think. it gives a very coherent sound and very good imaging. In fact the only box speaker I've heard that images as well or better is Colin Topp's Edingdale speakers.

The sense of air and space you get with an OB is great IMHO, and bass in particular is very articulate.

Darren

02-03-2012, 21:07

Thanks for the SBT power supply comments guys. I was wondering what my next upgrade was going to be...

Jonboy

02-03-2012, 22:17

:worthless:

Ali Tait

02-03-2012, 22:32

Pics of wot? :)