View Full Version : Marco and the DL-103 gang...HELP!!!
I took possession of a brand new DL-103SA a short while ago, all started out well, but now I'm finding the 103 bass heavy and short of high frequency excitement.
I'll provide some background:
I was intending to purchase an Audio Technica AT33PTG II, but all the fuss on this site and another convinced me that the Denon would be a good next step.
Although many years ago I owned a 103, then for a short while a 103R, I have really always been an Ortofon kind of guy.
In anticipation of getting a new cartridge I decided to make other changes and sold my Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 and decided to go solid state. After losing out on a bid for an Audiomat 1.5 I ordered a Jasmine LP2.0 MKII, only to have the Audiomat placed in my lap again...and I bought it too.
OK, so I've tried both phonostages...the Jasmine is the clear winner when it comes to musicality and frequency extremes, so it will very likely be staying and the Audiomat will go. But regardless of phonostage used with the 103SA, the bass is very heavy and the mids and high frequencies are lifeless.
The arm is a Fidelity Research FR-14 with silver wire, it's medium mass, 14g if I'm not mistaken. I currently have it tracking at 2.7g...I have tried everything from 2.2 up to 2.8...the lighter VTF lightens up the bass, but does nothing for the whole.
I have also tweaked the VTA so much I'm afraid I'll go mad or blind.
Now when I had my Ortofon HMC 30 on my table with this arm, well it was sweet music...so what gives?
The cart must have near to 40 hours on it now...any assistance would be most appreciated.
Oh, almost forgot...I did intend to use a step up into whatever phonostage I eventually kept, just not the cinemags, I was attempting to find a Luxman 8030 step up that uses silver wire.
Anyway...help!
What sort of cartridge loading have you got?
What sort of cartridge loading have you got?
Hi Jon,
I have tried 50/100/250/1K, they all sound subtly different, but none of them clear up the issues.
I would say that I prefer the 100 ohm setting the best.
I'm certainly no expert and am not familiar with your tonearm nor your phono stages, but it does sound like you might not have optimal loading for the cartridge, which might explain the mids and highs.
The bass heaviness might simply require adjustment of your speaker placement. Maybe the 103sa is simply putting out more bass than your previous cartridge.
In my technics arm my 103sa likes slightly tail up vta and about exactly 2.5 grams vtf, but take that with a grain of salt, because I have a stock arm that isn't supposed to be a good match and I am using an SUT which is not a perfect match--yet my 103sa sounds anything but lifeless and has great midrange.:scratch:
The Denon likes a fairly hefty arm so you may be running into compliance issues here. On the other hand they only ever quote at 100Hz so I am a great believer in the suck it and see approach!
I see you have tried 2.2g for VTF (I run mine at that... on the other hand it is a heavily modded cartridge). Reset it to its optimal value of 2.5
Make sure it is slightly tail down or at least level for VTA.
How is the cart attached to the arm? You may need to look at that...
I will check when I get home for my loading I cant remember. Let you know in due course...
I'm certainly no expert and am not familiar with your tonearm nor your phono stages, but it does sound like you might not have optimal loading for the cartridge, which might explain the mids and highs.
The bass heaviness might simply require adjustment of your speaker placement. Maybe the 103sa is simply putting out more bass than your previous cartridge.
In my technics arm my 103sa likes slightly tail up vta and about exactly 2.5 grams vtf, but take that with a grain of salt, because I have a stock arm that isn't supposed to be a good match and I am using an SUT which is not a perfect match--yet my 103sa sounds anything but lifeless and has great midrange.:scratch:
I've been working on my system as a whole at great lengths over the past few months. The big Harbeths are clearly not short on bass output...I have them a little more then 4 feet from the rear wall. When I listen to CD everything is perfect...and if I swap my other table in with the Ortofon 2M Blue mounted, again, everything is perfect.
I recognize that "ideal" loading would be nice, but most stages don't offer the choices I have and folks seem to find a happy medium.
I'm really confused.
Rick.
The Denon likes a fairly hefty arm so you may be running into compliance issues here. On the other hand they only ever quote at 100Hz so I am a great believer in the suck it and see approach!
I see you have tried 2.2g for VTF (I run mine at that... on the other hand it is a heavily modded cartridge). Reset it to its optimal value of 2.5
Make sure it is slightly tail down or at least level for VTA.
How is the cart attached to the arm? You may need to look at that...
I will check when I get home for my loading I cant remember. Let you know in due course...
I have been wondering about mass...I was intending to order a 13g or even a 15g headshell to replace the stock 9.5g Fidelity Research headshell.
Rick.
Stick a coin on your headshell...:)
Just wanted to add this: What you have described, too much bass and lifeless midrange and treble, might simply mean that you don't like the cartridge.
I like it, so I say it has good bass and a musical midrange and treble that is easy to listen to and allows my poor recordings to sound enjoyable.
But if I didn't like it, I could and maybe would describe what I hear pretty much as you have/are.
In my set up, the TT is putting out a good deal more bass than my digital and I have adjusted my speakers to optimize the analog. And I would like to extract more detail and a little more treble out of the analog set up, which I hope will materialize with arm and SUT upgrades and modifications.
So maybe you are experiencing the basic nature and sound of the cartridge and, unfortunately, it is just not your cup of tea.
My system:
Technics 1200 mk2
Denon 103sa
EAR 834p
Shindo Apetite integrated
A23 cables
A23 Solovox
Shindo Mr. T transformer
Oppo BDP-83 se
Lingo Lab stand
Hi Rick,
Sorry to hear of your troubles with the 103SA. However, you've got me a bit stumped as to how to help :scratch:
In anticipation of getting a new cartridge I decided to make other changes and sold my Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 and decided to go solid state.
Now when I had my Ortofon HMC 30 on my table with this arm, well it was sweet music...so what gives?
Could it be that in some ways the SF Phono 1 was better than the Jasmine? Perhaps it was responsible for the Ortofon reproducing "sweet music" with your current table and arm?
I think that perhaps some of the changes you've made have upset the balance of your system. I'm afraid that there has to be something fundamentally wrong for the 103SA to sound as you describe.... The 103SA is not a bright sounding cartridge, but when optimised it sounds wide-open and extended through the midrange, with plenty of detail and sparkle through the upper frequencies, and it has extended and tuneful, but not overblown bass.
The arm is a Fidelity Research FR-14 with silver wire, it's medium mass, 14g if I'm not mistaken. I currently have it tracking at 2.7g...I have tried everything from 2.2 up to 2.8...the lighter VTF lightens up the bass, but does nothing for the whole.
I have also tweaked the VTA so much I'm afraid I'll go mad or blind
The FR-14 *should* be a good match with the 103. However have you checked that the bearings are ok, and wiring (including headshell leads) and all the connections are, too?
Perhaps try the 103SA with another arm, if you have one? You could also try a different mat on your T/T and see what happens. I would also try some SUTs into the MM stage on your Jasmine, if it has one, instead of straight into an active MC stage.
2.6g is the ideal VTF for 103s, and VTA should be set so that the arm is parallel to the record playing surface, but I don't think that's your problem.
You also need a headshell that's at least 16g (the 9.5g of your FR is too light), but with the symptoms you describe of what's wrong with the sound, I doubt adding more mass will help.
For me, it's something to do with the phonostage and/or the tonearm, or the cartridge is faulty. You're just going to have to experiment with this one and try to eliminate one thing at a time in order to discover what the problem is.
Anyway, try what I've suggested and see what happens - good luck in sorting it out :cool:
Marco.
I think the coin on the headshell is worth trying. Use bluetac to attach, reset tracking force and see if that helps at all.
Hi Lurcher,
I had to do exactly that with my Grace unipivot, add a five cent piece, that was while running the Ortofon MC. It made a world of difference, but particularly in the low frequencies.
Hi Marco,
I never ran my SF Phono 1 with the Ortofon, I loaned out the tubes to a buddy...and never saw them again. Anyway, I was running the Ortofon with a 640p, and quite well, and was of course trying other Phonostages while tweaking out my system.
The arm is as near mint as can be found...and although I'm not as steady as I used to be (and it's not the beer), I did go through the arm in detail when I got hold of it to ensure all was well. Plus I ran the Ortofon on this arm for a bit, it was quite stellar.
I am familiar with the 103 and 103R, I very much like the sound, but something is just not right here. And that I have 2 (really 3 including the 640p) phonostages in home and the problem is the same with each......
This weekend I'll bring my table up into the kitchen where the lighting is better (my mancave is poorly lit, intentionally, I can catch the wife more easily when she can't see) and go through the entire setup again.
The most discouraging thing is I think I know how good the Denon and the Lux (with the FR-14) should sound.
If you think of anything else, not including "it will sound better after 3 shots of whiskey" (I already posed that one to myself), please throw it at me.
Now I'll go back to thinking about....boobies!!! :eek:
I am familiar with the 103 and 103R, I very much like the sound, but something is just not right here. And that I have 2 (really 3 including the 640p) phonostages in home and the problem is the same with each......So that suggests that the problem is upstream of the phono stage. I don't believe that all 3 stages are faulty.
So it is either the cartridge or the wiring at fault.
Hmmmmmm , not 100% sure about this,but isn't the Fidelity Research arm a lightweight one,made in the 70's for high compliance cartridges? If that is so,then.it is a complete missmatch for the Denon.It's the same reason why a Grado signature gold isn't working well with most of todays arms.
I was intending to purchase an Audio Technica AT33PTG II, but all the fuss on this site and another convinced me that the Denon would be a good next step.
There's quite a lot of fuss and support for both cartridges on this forum :)
Indeed. Martin, you heard my 103SA in your system the first time I came round. Did it sound anything like Rick describes?
Hope you get it sorted out, Rick, so keep us posted :)
Marco.
P.S You need to add "Rick" somewhere on your signature, so people can see at a glance what your name is - cheers!
Indeed. Martin, you heard my 103SA in your system the first time I came round. Did it sound anything like Rick describes?
Not at all, the sound was as you described, wide open, detailed and dynamic. Weighty, but not overly bassy in balance.
ourdogmax
21-01-2011, 09:24
Hi I know this may seem obvious, but have you tried cleaning the stylus THOROUGHLY .
The reason I mention this is, I bought a 103 off ebay and had the the problen you are describing, I nearly chucked the cartridge out thinking it was crap.
the stylus looked clean but when I ran a brush with a drop or two of ispropol over it, well what a difference, it cleaned up the sound beautifully.
Well worth a try, before you pull your own hair out. :lol:
indie roehre
21-01-2011, 10:27
Hi Rick
I know these problems. It`s hard to stay calm.
But listen in a relax mood and try different things: order a heavy headshell. the arm has not enough mass for Denon 103SA. the real optimum you only find with heavy arms. Then also try to make tonarm a little bit higher or lower but in steps of 1 millimeter only and listen always same vinyl and at same volume.
a SUT can also help. A used fidelity research or a self made Lundahl. but this are additional costs but worth a try.
If nothing helps and you are sure to get crazy next time or drink too much whiskey:
If you can let 103SA go, the sell it and try for example Ortodon Rondo bronze or SPU classic N- naked!! with a heavy headshell.
Knut
The Denon likes a fairly hefty arm so you may be running into compliance issues here. On the other hand they only ever quote at 100Hz so I am a great believer in the suck it and see approach!
I see you have tried 2.2g for VTF (I run mine at that... on the other hand it is a heavily modded cartridge). Reset it to its optimal value of 2.5
Make sure it is slightly tail down or at least level for VTA.
How is the cart attached to the arm? You may need to look at that...
I will check when I get home for my loading I cant remember. Let you know in due course...
not sure, but i would have thought that with excess bass, VTA adjustments should be going towards the tail being more up than not.
FWIW, i'm running a FR cart in my fr64s and, after lots of fiddling, the tail is significantly higher (1cm+).
cheers
adrian
indie roehre
21-01-2011, 13:35
yes Adrian, you`re right :bulb:. I think the bass elimates the mids an highs. I would check this first.
Knut
not sure, but i would have thought that with excess bass, VTA adjustments should be going towards the tail being more up than not.
FWIW, i'm running a FR cart in my fr64s and, after lots of fiddling, the tail is significantly higher (1cm+).
cheers
adrian
Hi,
While I have not adjusted the VTA to below level, I do presently have it set where the arm is angled up toward the pivot point (center of tonearm pivot).
This definitely made a difference, as it had to, but it did not eliminate the problem.
Regarding the FR-14 tonearm, I've copied in the specs below...I was not aware that the stock headshell was 12g, so this arm should approach the ideal for the Denon.
The more I dig, the more confused I get.
Rick.
Specifications for Fidelity Research FR-14
Type: static balance pick-up tonearm
Overall arm length: 311mm
Pivot to stylus distance: 245mm
Suitable turntable height: 27 to 55mm
Maximum arm board thickness: 35mm
Arm mounting hole diameter: 28mm
Tracking force range: 0 to 3g (0.25g calibration)
Anti-skate device: weight and lever (0.5g calibration)
Stylus overhang: 15mm
Suitable cartridge weight: 1 to 12g
Horizontal and vertical bearing: radial ball
Vertical arm friction: less than 0.005g
Audio cable capacitance: 80pf
Arm resonant frequency: 8.1Hz
Effective mass: 14g
Headshell: 12g model FR-S/6 solid aluminium
Rick
FR-14 should be fine with the Denon...it is a 12" arm and though FR suggested it was a low to medium mass arm, in reality it was on the high-ish side at 14-16g. Certainty on a par with a SME 3012.
The cartridge like to be loaded correctly and that is in the region of 40-100 Ohms depending on the listeners preference.
103 are IMHO very sensitive to VTA and alignment. Start with the VTA low and work up...you'll here it.
Which Grace uni-pivot do you have? If it is a G series (940/960), these are fantastic with the Denon.
indie roehre
21-01-2011, 16:44
Gerry:
your posting let me think it over. yes the real compliance of the dl-103 is at 12-14 :doh:(hifitest.de, Germany), not at 5, as Denon publishes it. so you are right. the FR-14 must do it. hmm? But this information doesn`t help our friend.:(
Rick
FR-14 should be fine with the Denon...it is a 12" arm and though FR suggested it was a low to medium mass arm, in reality it was on the high-ish side at 14-16g. Certainty on a par with a SME 3012.
The cartridge like to be loaded correctly and that is in the region of 40-100 Ohms depending on the listeners preference.
103 are IMHO very sensitive to VTA and alignment. Start with the VTA low and work up...you'll here it.
Which Grace uni-pivot do you have? If it is a G series (940/960), these are fantastic with the Denon.
Hi Gerry,
I'll post again about the success I've had today alleviating some of the problems with the 103....but...
I owned the G-704 until very recently. It's a beatiful arm, full of music, but a bit on the light side for the lower compliance carts I want to try.
I was using the 704 with the HMC 30, after drilling out a five cent piece off center and installing with a very small rubber o-ring I found the 704 to track amazingly well, and the Ortofon appreciated the extra mass.
Years ago I owned a G-940, what an arm, I loved that arm with a Shure V15 IV. I was also a fan of the Victor 7045 arm...mounted one on a Kenwood KD-600 and the 2 combined to be one of the best sounding sources I've ever owned.
I've owned so many tables since the 70's, but the DD's and the Lux decks always stand out in my fondest memories.
Thanks for your assistance.
Rick.
Ok...I've had some success today with the 103.
I rushed home from work and went at it...the turntable that is - for goodness sake, get your mind out of the gutter!!! :lol:
First I removed the headshell with cart still installed and disconnected and then reconnected every lead, just to be sure I had good contact.
Next I lifted the table and pulled the tonearm cable out, checked it, and then reinstalled the cable, making sure it was fully engaged.
I then pulled all interconnects from the Jasmine and then reinstalled each interconnect as though my very life depended on their perfect contact.
I changed the loading to 250 and checked the umbilical between the power supply and the PS.
The only other change I made was the connection of the Jasmine to my line filter. It had originally been plugged into digital filter outlets, I moved the plug to the analog filter outlets - seems a stretch, but I wanted to make sure everything was perfect.
I gave the stylus a quick brush, cleaned up a Chicago album, set the arm in motion and.......very different, much improved.
One thing of note is that the Jasmine is quiter than I'm accustomed to...it's just pitch black behind the music. When I just sat and listened I realized that one "thing" I was listening for was the noise between the music...it's no longer there.
What I also noticed though, was that the 103SA is far more laid back then the Ortofon MC's I have loved for many many years. Here you have writing an absolute freak for the MC Supers and the MC Supremes of the 80's, 90's, and still occasionally available in the 2000's. I'm waiting for the lead vocalist and lead guitarist to step out in front of the Harbeths and stand almost where I can touch them (made me think of Andrea Corr):eyebrows: , but the Denon doesn't present things in this way.
Now for sure something was amiss until today, likely a connection somewhere, but I now know that the differences between the Ortofons and the Denon are considerable.
From here I intend to leave the loading alone and let the cartridge AND the Jasmine break in. I will fiddle here and there with VTA and VTF, but that's it. Hopefully over the next few weeks as things break in, and I become acclimatized to the Denon signature, I can get comfortable with this new setup and just enjoy the tunes.
Thanks very much for all the help...and I'll keep you posted.
P.S. Martin, thanks so much for the feedback regarding the Audio Technica AT33PTG...I had placed an order through ebay for the version 2, but something happened on the sellers end that caused me concern...so I cancelled the transaction and decided to purchase a cart I could get here in North America.
Rick.
Good result! Enjoy the music!
Hi Rick,
Glad you seem to have sorted your problem :)
It just shows how important it is to periodically go through and check all the connections in your system! ;)
What I also noticed though, was that the 103SA is far more laid back then the Ortofon MC's I have loved for many many years. Here you have writing an absolute freak for the MC Supers and the MC Supremes of the 80's, 90's, and still occasionally available in the 2000's.
Mmmm... Thing is, with an optimally partnered and set-up 103SA, there shouldn't be that much difference. However, modern Ortofons (not the ones you mention) do have a rather more 'up front' balance (I would say, in some cases, overly so), therefore if you like that kind of over-emphasised, 'trebly' presentation (rather like most Lyras and ATs give), the 103SA may not be for you.
However, that said, my gut feeling is that there's still much more to come from your 103SA, and that you haven't heard it at its best. When fully optimised (via correct set-up and with the right partnering ancillaries), it should be blowing you away with its all-round sonic and musical abilities, which from your description of the sound, I don't feel is happening.
My advice would be to enjoy it 'as is' for the moment (perhaps also returning the loading again to 100ohms), and then later on at some point try it on a different arm (e.g. Jelco SA750 with a quality heavy headshell) and also with a tried and tested SUT, such as the A23. Personally, I wouldn't bugger about with other SUTs, when there is a superb one already on the market, tailor-made for the job!
Anyway, in the meantime, enjoy the music :cool:
Marco.
P.S. Martin, thanks so much for the feedback regarding the Audio Technica AT33PTG...I had placed an order through ebay for the version 2, but something happened on the sellers end that caused me concern...so I cancelled the transaction and decided to purchase a cart I could get here in North America.
No problem, Rick. The AT certainly gives a more Ortofon type presentation with vocals right up front. I wouldn't go so far as to say 'trebly' as Marco says, indeed the 33PTG has a better balance than the OC9 which I do consider tilted towards the treble.
Hi Martin,
The AT-33PTG is the exception to the rule, which is a lovely even-handed cartridge, when optimally partnered and set-up.
However, most other AT and Lyra cartridges, and some modern Ortofons, have in my view a 'light and bright' balance, whereby because low frequencies are somewhat curtailed, the mid and top-end is more exposed, thus giving a false impression that there is more detail present and "vocals right up front". For me, it's an unnatural effect.
Combine this effect, when a fine-line or elliptical stylus is used, which naturally retrieve more detail and have a more 'up front' signature, and one can over-egg the pudding. This is why many people have had great success when re-tipping (conical) Denon MCs with 'fancier' styli - because the more even-handed (and I'd say natural) tonality of Denon MCs lends itself positively to such modifications.
That's why I much prefer the way Denon MCs are voiced, compared to those from Lyra or Ortofon (SPU aside, but that is a very different beast).
System synergy, as ever, however, is the key! ;)
Marco.
Mmmm... Thing is, with an optimally partnered and set-up 103SA, there shouldn't be that much difference. However, modern Ortofons (not the ones you mention) do have a rather more 'up front' balance (I would say, in some cases, overly so), therefore if you like that kind of over-emphasised, 'trebly' presentation (rather like most Lyras and ATs give), the 103SA may not be for you.
However, that said, my gut feeling is that there's still much more to come from your 103SA, and that you haven't heard it at its best. When fully optimised (via correct set-up and with the right partnering ancillaries), it should be blowing you away with its all-round sonic and musical abilities, which from your description of the sound, I don't feel is happening.
My advice would be to enjoy it 'as is' for the moment (perhaps also returning the loading again to 100ohms), and then later on at some point try it on a different arm (e.g. Jelco SA750 with a quality heavy headshell) and also with a tried and tested SUT, such as the A23. Personally, I wouldn't bugger about with other SUTs, when there is a superb one already on the market, tailor-made for the job!
Marco.
Pretty much agreed on all accounts. My previous cartridge was an Ortofon MC 20 Super and even the stock 103R in its plastic body properly set up and optimized was a much more enjoyable cartridge and, in my opinion, pretty much better across the board with the exception of treble/high frequency extension and refinement, where the Ortofon had the edge. Yes, the Ortofon was a bit more forward in its presentation, but not overtly. No question that it offers up a more hi-fi-ish sound quality when compared to the Denon though.
Once you start to rebody the 103R, a la 103SA or one of the aftermarket wood or aluminum options, the treble refinement issue tends to disappear or at least be greatly diminished and the areas in which the Denon excels become even more pronounced.
Take it to the next level with a good line contact stylus and the Denon will show the Ortofon MC series to be positively pedestrian by comparison but the setup with that stylus is unbelievably demanding (at least it is with Soundsmith's retip) compared to the stock Denon conical. The "window" for the right VTF and particularly VTA narrows considerably and the cartridge becomes much harder to dial in than with the conical, but get it right and the rewards are huge.
But certainly a bit of a mystery; I'd expect the 103SA to be considerably more enjoyable than an Ortofon HMC 30 assuming proper setup and no issues with the cartridge.
I'm happy to report that things are definitely on the up.
I have adjusted the VTA numerous times, arriving at a just very slight rise at the pivot point of the arm...and I mean very slight.
The VTF is now set at 2.5 plus a bit, I am finding this to be just right.
I still find the Denon "laid back" in comparison with carts like the Ortofon MC30 Super II, a cart I have owned more than once and always enjoyed. The Denon is rock solid in the mids...with the loading at 250 I'm finding the highs very open and clean, while the low frequencies are deep and taut.
Having listened to the 103R quite regularly at a friends I find clear differences between the 103R and the 103SA (although most report they are identical). I definitely find the high frequencies presented cleaner through the 103SA.
Last evening I pulled out Rush's Exit Stage Left...I was pleasantly surprised by the clarity of playback from this Live album. I listened to both LP's, and I really wanted it to go on...not much else to say on that really, when you're into the tunes that much...things are good.
Presently surface noise is near to non-existent, the Denon loves the Fidelity Research arm...I may still try a heavier headshell, but after everything is fully broken in.
Thanks very much for all the help...I'll keep everyone informed about my adventure with the 103SA...but I'm already back on ebay every 2 hours looking at that damn AT33PTG II.
Rick.
Rick - if you're going to seriously consider the AT33PTG/II then you must look at the Dynavector 20X2L as well, it's pretty much the same price. It gives a very different presentation and may suit your system. I'm still running mine in and will follow up with a full review soon.
The VTF is now set at 2.5 plus a bit, I am finding this to be just right.
Rick.
You might want to try, as Marco suggested earlier (and I would concur), 2.6 dead on for the VTF, bearing in mind you may then have to adjust VTA and reconfirm VTF.
My experience with two 103R's in various iterations (stock, rebodied, etc) on two different arms is that anything above 2.6 following breakin (heavy duty breakin occurs around 15 hours and then continues in a more subtle manner through 50 hours) will result in a muddying and heavyness to the sound quality. Less than 2.6 and the cartridge will take on a lot of hi-fi-ish characteristics (more air, "faster" etc.) and have it sounding more like your old Ortofon, but essentially lose most of the Denon 103 qualities that really make it what it is: top to bottom coherence, incredible midrange, very realistic tonal qualities and slam.
If you want it to sound like it should, 2.6 is the VTF.
If you have less than 15 hours on the cartridge, it is still probably a bit steely and lightweight. Get through the 15 hour mark and you'll notice a huge difference and then more subtle improvements into the 50 hour area.
When I did load, I was loaded at 100 ohms, my current phono stage uses a current mode input which essentially presents a short circuit to the cartridge-I would expect I am loaded much lower than 250.
My experience with two 103R's in various iterations (stock, rebodied, etc) on two different arms is that anything above 2.6 following breakin (heavy duty breakin occurs around 15 hours and then continues in a more subtle manner through 50 hours) will result in a muddying and heavyness to the sound quality. Less than 2.6 and the cartridge will take on a lot of hi-fi-ish characteristics (more air, "faster" etc.) and have it sounding more like your old Ortofon, but essentially lose most of the Denon 103 qualities that really make it what it is: top to bottom coherence, incredible midrange, very realistic tonal qualities and slam.
Absolutely spot on!!
Marco.
Rick - if you're going to seriously consider the AT33PTG/II then you must look at the Dynavector 20X2L as well, it's pretty much the same price. It gives a very different presentation and may suit your system. I'm still running mine in and will follow up with a full review soon.
Hi Martin - I'm in no rush, other than my impatience of course...I look forward to your review of the Dynavector.
Rick.
chris@panteg
29-01-2011, 01:55
Just had a msg from John , a very nice and friendly chap i met from the VE , he's sending me his DL103R (rebodied) i should have it tuesday all being well:)
Looking forward to trying it i must say .
Just had a msg from John , a very nice and friendly chap i met from the VE , he's sending me his DL103R (rebodied) i should have it tuesday all being well:)
Looking forward to trying it i must say .
Hi Chris,
I look forward to your opinion of the 103R.
Although I previously committed to making no changes to my vinyl setup for a while...well, I lied. Last evening I grabbed a Billy Joel album and played it full length (both sides) 3 times.
The first time through I had the loading at 100, second time 250, and the final pass through was 1K. By the middle of the first song on the final pass through (1K ohms) I was noticing a marked improvement in the upper frequencies, while I wasn't missing anything bass wise.
As the music progressed I noticed that the soundstage had widened and deepened...and I was more aware of the varied tones and colours in Joels voice.
One song in particular (the name eludes me), the musicians and his own piano are put on hold for quite a bit, only his voice is present...it was very real, I was for a moment completely unaware that I was listening to recorded music...only that I was listening to a singer. It was very surreal.
I'm becoming more impressed daily by this cart...but it is very finicky about all setup issues. And purely for reference...I was the guy in the 80's and 90's that you would bring your table to for setup and tweaking...I'm never satisfied and I squeeze every ounce out of a vinyl system. The 103 may just drive me crazy. :doh:
Please keep us posted.
Rick.
chris@panteg
29-01-2011, 17:34
Hi Rick
That is interesting , 1k loading seems to go against the grain ? and it just so happens my Diablo has a 1k setting :) i will be trying it at 33 /100 /1k though and see which i like best .
chris@panteg
03-02-2011, 01:38
The DL103R has arrived and is now fitted to my 309 :) its fitted into a massive red anodised ali body and it feels pretty substantial , i had to wind back the counterweight in my SME ' almost as far as it can go.
Mounting was fairly easy , though not much room at the back , but i got the pins on just fine , set the VTA and HTA ,VTF at around 2.5 though i don't have a tracking force gauge , (must get one pronto) .
The 309 headshell weighs 4.58 gms ,the 103 body must be around 12-14 gms at a guess , unfortunately my mini scales just picked up the magnet from the 103 so that's pretty useless.
Set the Diablo at 100 ohm's with 1.1nf capacitance and gain at 70db sensitivity 0.25- 0.4mv.
1st impression's a very powerful and vivid presentation with a wonderful tonality , makes the DL160 sound a bit hifi in comparison , i was struck by the punchy and super quick bass ,very nimble compared to the slightly plummy bass of the 160 , and it has real slam and a kick you in the nuts quality about it (i'm liking this:)) so far so very good and to be honest its been to brief a listen , but i also tried 1k loading very briefly and that sounds very promising ! At 63 db gain and 0.4 mv , i needed to crank the volume up a fair bit but it sounded very good ' i will try that a bit later but... even after so short a listen i don't think Jon's getting this back ! He wants £120 for it , its in super condition with bags of mileage left .
Could be a bargain i think , its only my 2nd true MC cart after the Troika , regarding mass i'm not so sure i need it ? that red body is adding quite a bit to the performance i suspect , i will get a photo up soon .
More later , only downside that i can detect so far is a little more distortion in the inner grooves , this something other's have noted , is this normal ?
More later
Hi Chris
With all that weight up front and the counterweight almost falling off the other end, your effective mass is way high and should meet the 'Marco factor' for a compatible arm. No wonder it sounds punchy.
As for inner groove distortion, I'm puzzled. As I remember, the SME has holes not slots for the cartridge so you can't get rotation alignment wrong. Something to do with the spherical stylus? Though my engineering head tells me that it should be more forgiving than an elliptical. Have you set up the arm with the SME protractor?
More later , only downside that i can detect so far is a little more distortion in the inner grooves , this something other's have noted , is this normal ?
More later
Glad you enjoy.
There should be no distortion on the inner groves. This is a classic sign of alignment issues.
IMHO the 103 is very sensitive to alignment.
It could be that the cantilever and stylus are slightly out of kilter with the body, as it is a re-body.
Try the alignment again.
prestonchipfryer
03-02-2011, 09:24
As I remember, the SME has holes not slots for the cartridge so you can't get rotation alignment wrong.
Don't forget to place a small mirror undeneath the headshell/cartridge so you can make sure the cartridge is aligned with the SME headshell, as per SME instructions.
John
There should be no distortion on the inner groves. This is a classic sign of alignment issues.
IMHO the 103 is very sensitive to alignment.
It could be that the cantilever and stylus are slightly out of kilter with the body, as it is a re-body.
Try the alignment again.
Completely agree with Gerry.
Yes, fidelity will be lessened to a degree on the inner grooves, due to the nature of the conical stylus (I think that's what you're getting confused with), but when the cartridge is optimally set-up, there should be no audible distortion whatsoever.
Try alignment again, as Gerry says (I presume you have a decent protractor?) - and also AZIMUTH. The latter is as crucially important. You need a little plastic headshell spirit level (such as the kind Johnnie sells) to do the job properly. I guarantee at the moment it'll be out.
Also, experiment again with VTF. Try increasing it slightly. There is a very definite sweet spot with the 103 where everything clicks into place, and this is when you achieve bang on 2.6g. Get yourself a set of digital stylus scales, man... No serious T/T addict should be without one!! ;)
regarding mass i'm not so sure i need it ? that red body is adding quite a bit to the performance i suspect.
Indeed. I hadn't realised that the cartridge you were getting had been re-bodied, so leave it as it is for the moment until you attend to the other adjustments, as mentioned above. Then, after that, if you're still getting a little distortion, you could fit a small plate between the cartridge and the headshell to increase mass slightly.
Basically, such fine tuning is what makes the difference between the cartridge 'singing' or not! :)
It'll depend on whether the mass of the body-shell fitted has been calculated correctly, which is a near impossibility, as whoever designed the body-shell, unless advised in advance, would have no idea what headshell (or arm) the cartridge was going to be used with.
The SME headshell is much lighter than I had expected at just under 5g. I read somewhere that Dave Cawley thought that a stock 103 on the 309 (or perhaps it was another SME arm?) worked superbly.
Well, unless he used a plate to add around 10g of mass (which perhaps he did) he's talking bollocks. No way José would any stock 103 work properly on a 5g headshell! :mental:
Marco.
Marco - don't forget that this SME (309) headshell is tiny, not comparable with standard fit headshells. Also, if an additional plate is fitted, Chris is going to need a bigger counterweight.
chris@panteg
03-02-2011, 10:46
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8900/dscf0792d.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/i/dscf0792d.jpg/)
Here it is in situ .
Marco - don't forget that this SME (309) headshell is tiny, not comparable with standard fit headshells. Also, if an additional plate is fitted, Chris is going to need a bigger counterweight.
Yup, Martin, I know, but that's precisely why I always bang on that to optimise a 103 properly you need a high-mass detachable headshell arm (and heavy counterweight) to deal with these sort of issues!! ;)
The 103 is not in any way a 'normal' cartridge by today's standards.
However, hopefully once Chris has fine-tuned VTA, Azimuth and VTF, he'll be cooking with gas! :gig:
Marco.
Chris, I've resized the pic for you, as your oversized image was destroying the page layout! ;)
Tip: when using Imageshack or Photobucket, always make sure to select the resizing option for message boards :)
Love the girly pink colour against the rather sombre grey of the SME!
Marco.
chris@panteg
03-02-2011, 10:57
I had aligned it wrong , it was overshot by a far bit:rolleyes: ' to hasty ,so i moved the arm gently back and it now sits in the indent of the supplied SME protractor , inner distrortion is much reduced :o , checking the azimuth , it looks just about right , but yes i need a mini spirit level .
Listening this morning and all i can say is if its still out or misaligned in some way then i'm in for a treat ! this is already the most exciting cartridge i have ever used in any system that i've owned or used :)
chris@panteg
03-02-2011, 11:00
Chris, I've resized the pic for you, as your oversized image was destroying the page layout! ;)
Tip: when using Imageshack or Photobucket, always make sure to select the resizing option for message boards :)
Love the girly pink colour against the rather sombre grey of the SME!
Marco.
Thanks Marco :) again much too hasty lol .
PS note my secret door ,:eyebrows:
this is already the most exciting cartridge i have ever used in any system that i've owned or used...
And folk wonder why I'm so passionate about this cartridge? :eyebrows:
Now, imagine the sound you're getting just now, add a goodly dose more refinement at the frequency extremes, and an even more musically explicit and insightful midrange, together with a cavernously wide soundstage, whilst retaining all the fun factor of the 103, and you're in the land of the SPU...! ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
03-02-2011, 11:11
Don't give me ideas , it will upset wifey no end :eyebrows:
Lol - for the moment, just enjoy the 103 :)
Oh, and buy yourself a headshell spirit level, shown here (scroll down slightly):
http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/F_Sale/ForSale.htm
Trust me, when azimuth is 100% bang on, you can hear the difference! ;)
It's an invaluable little tool.
Marco.
chris@panteg
03-02-2011, 12:21
Thanks for the link , Marco
I have a smallish spirit level ,and tried it on the headshell ,bit too big ' but you were right !
It was out by quite a way in fact , still need J7's though .
I tried loading at 1k , but didn't like it , it kills the life and magic to my ears , so for me at the moment with my Diablo its 100ohms and i've reduced gain to 63db , this is also much better would you believe , it just seemed to be overloading and clipping with 70db, sounding more refined and sweeter :)
No worries, matey. I thought it might be out. It's impossible to set azimuth absolutely accurately by eye.
If you get one of Johnnie's little spirit levels, and optimise the azimuth on your 103 with it, things will be even better! :)
I'm not surprised at 1K loading not being right. I've never used a 103 that way. It's always been at around 100 Ohms, or sometimes up to 250 Ohms can be good, depending on the system used.
There's a reason why no SUT that I know of, designed for 103 (either Denon's own or the A23), loads it at 1k!
Gain is also crucial to get right, so experiment and see what is best.
When you've lived with the 103 for a bit, I'll loan you my modded Lentek head amp, which you can connect via the MM input on your Diablo, to see what you think. That should blow your mind... :eyebrows:
Marco.
chris@panteg
03-02-2011, 12:36
No worries, matey. I thought it might be out. It's impossible to set azimuth properly by eye alone.
If you get one of Johnnie's little spirit levels, and optimise azimuth with it, things will be even better! :)
I'm not surprised at 1K loading not being right. I've never used a 103 that way. It's always been at around 100 Ohms, or sometimes up to 250 Ohms can be good, depending on the system used.
There's a reason why no SUT that I know of, designed for 103 (either Denon's own or the A23), loads it at 1k!
Gain is also crucial to get right, so experiment and see what is best.
When you've lived with the 103 for a bit, I'll loan you my modded Lentek head amp, which you can connect via the MM input on your Diablo, to see what you think. That should blow your mind... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Thanks Marco , very decent of you :)
The Lentek sounds interesting :) yeah 1k sounds strange :scratch: and it did something weird in the bass , i heard some thumping and banging on ' The Doors ' land ho ,or it was exposing microphone thump ! not sure .
Yup, it'll also make the sound decidedly 'hi-fi', by accentuating the mid and upper frequencies, at the expense of fluidity and cohesion - not good!
I would maintain that if you need to load a 103 at 1K Ohms in order for it to sound right, then something is wrong elsewhere. Sorry, Rick :(
No worries, you're welcome. What the (modded by Nick G) Lentek does is give the sound bags of vim and vigour, and bass drive with a beguiling rhythmic impetus, whilst really opening out the top end, giving recordings a lovely sparkle and clarity.
The Lentek can make some SUTs and active MC stages sound positively 'sat on', but once modded, it's in no way bright or fatiguing.
The only downside is that, being battery operated and relatively cheap in standard form, there is an element of hiss (not hum - it's totally hum-free) when music isn't playing, but it rarely intrudes, other than perhaps during the quietest passages of some classical music.
Are you planning to go to Scalford Hall? If so, I could send the Lentek the week before, and you could return it to me at the show :cool:
Marco.
And folk wonder why I'm so passionate about this cartridge? :eyebrows:
Now, imagine the sound you're getting just now, add a goodly dose more refinement at the frequency extremes, and an even more musically explicit and insightful midrange, together with a cavernously wide soundstage, whilst retaining all the fun factor of the 103, and you're in the land of the SPU...! ;)
Marco.
now marco.. i nearly ordered an spu last year... then chickened out..it was well over £1k ..and I was not really sure what i was getting for that...
i'm using at the moment a VDH 2009 rebuilt dynavector ultimo dv30a
it has a big sound, and tracks perfectly
but i miss the sound of the m3d....
how close is your spu to the sound of the m3d... excluding the tracking...
i would hope to be using my audiophile products step up which i think would suit
thanks
steve
Specific to the loading of the 103 at 1K, I have backed it off to 250. 100 is IMO somewhat lifeless, the 250 marker seems to be the sweet spot with my phono pre.
I was very happy with the 1K loading for a couple of albums, but it wore thin. Should you do a quick check of the net you will find many folks using the 103 with loading values of 500 to 1K.
In my case, the reasoning I've come to is that my M40's are near impossible to ruffle, and it would seem impossible to me that any setting would cause the Harbeths to sound bass shy, so it is that for a few hours the "brighter" top end was mistaken for "open".
Back in the late 70's and early 80's was the last time(s) I had a 103 in my system, I even had a 103D back in the day...my phono pre was an Accuphase C-220, and this PP with the 103D produced some pretty sweet music. Unfortunately I moved on, and like many, relegated the 103 to passe status. :doh:
I don't remember finding the 103 as much a challenge to dial in back then as I am these days, but then I'm far fussier now than in the "good ole days". :mental:
Specific to Azimuth, one little trick I've picked up over the last few years is the use of a blank cd/dvd. Place the cart just ahead of the hole, shine a flashlight directly overhead and down onto the cart/cd and observe the reflection. For some reason I have found this easier than the use of a mirror, and with the line on the front of the 103, you can almost perfectly align the reflection with the cart. (I used this method with my SME 3009 II)
Back to the 103, I do think a step up is in my immediate future, perhaps that will provide the next level of performance I'm chasing.
Specific to Azimuth, one little trick I've picked up over the last few years is the use of a blank cd/dvd. Place the cart just ahead of the hole, shine a flashlight directly overhead and down onto the cart/cd and observe the reflection. For some reason I have found this easier than the use of a mirror, and with the line on the front of the 103, you can almost perfectly align the reflection with the cart. (I used this method with my SME 3009 II)
Nice tip, Rick. I'll try that.
chris@panteg
04-02-2011, 00:34
Yup, it'll also make the sound decidedly 'hi-fi', by accentuating the mid and upper frequencies, at the expense of fluidity and cohesion - not good!
I would maintain that if you need to load a 103 at 1K Ohms in order for it to sound right, then something is wrong elsewhere. Sorry, Rick :(
No worries, you're welcome. What the (modded by Nick G) Lentek does is give the sound bags of vim and vigour, and bass drive with a beguiling rhythmic impetus, whilst really opening out the top end, giving recordings a lovely sparkle and clarity.
The Lentek can make some SUTs and active MC stages sound positively 'sat on', but once modded, it's in no way bright or fatiguing.
The only downside is that, being battery operated and relatively cheap in standard form, there is an element of hiss (not hum - it's totally hum-free) when music isn't playing, but it rarely intrudes, other than perhaps during the quietest passages of some classical music.
Are you planning to go to Scalford Hall? If so, I could send the Lentek the week before, and you could return it to me at the show :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco
I'm hoping to be at scalford but not 100% yet ,will have to decide soon .
I think i need to start again with my set up as a couple of records didn't sound so good , The Cars 'Heartbeat city , sounded really coarse and and REM ' out of time ' (don't laugh):o was mistracking and jumping about on Radio song :( could be some crud on the tip maybe !
You seem to suffer from that, Chris! You need some AT stylus cleaning fluid. Top stuff.
Hi Chris,
It could be, so try cleaning your stylus, but I suspect there's still something amiss with the set up of your cartridge and/or compatibility with your arm.
Did you sort out the azimuth?
If cleaning the stylus doesn't cure the problem, then I think it's time to add more mass to the headshell, as that could be the reason you're getting harshness. I know exactly what that sounds like, as I've been there before.
We know your headshell weighs around 5g, so what we need to establish is now how much heavier your 103 is compared to a stock one, then add that value to the weight of your headshell to see if it equals the 16g mass needed when a stock 103 is combined with a high-mass headshell.
If it falls short of that, then that value is how much weight you need to add to your SME headshell, by using a plate, Blu-Tak, or whatever, in order to arrive at the optimum effective mass for the 103.
Ya gets me? :)
Marco.
chris@panteg
04-02-2011, 22:56
Hi Marco
Thankyou for the help so far , i started from scratch again and discovered a glaring boob :doh: on my part , the lift lower device was too high and as a result , i don't think i was tracking @ 2.5 , no wonder i was getting some thumping in the bass :eek: , so out came the tiny SME supplied allen key :o
Tracking now set at 2.5 , azimuth looks good ,but i also changed the capacitance to 100pf, as i understand it ' its best as low as possible ' it sounds better for it , must do some needle drops .
Its sounding rather good :) balance is superb to my ears , tracking seems spot on now ! And i'm flicking between 100ohm and 1k , 1k sounds a touch brighter but very interesting .
Music sounds so full of life and energy , think i'm getting there , i can hear why some people absolutely love these carts , this could be a hell of a bargain for me .
The body must weigh in at about 12-14 gms ? will ask Jon .
Lol - ya daftie! :eyebrows:
No worries, though, these things happen. At least you discovered what the problem was!
Yeah ask Jon what the cartridge weighs, or you could do it yourself when (or if) you remove it.
A stock 103 is 8.5g, so if your cartridge is, say, 14g, then when that difference is added to the weight of the SME headshell, you've got around 10.5g of 'headshell mass', so you could still do with a bit more to get things spot on.
As a reference, a stock 103 fitted to, say, an Ortofon LH 9000 high-mass headshell, would come in at a total of 25.3g.
However, let's see how things go for the moment until you're more used to the cartridge before adding any more mass, although do try VTF at 2.6g and see if you prefer it to 2.5. What type of scales are you using to measure this at the moment?
Marco.
chris@panteg
04-02-2011, 23:57
Yes it was one those ' oh FFS moments , the arm was still sat on the rest as it was playing so god knows what it was tracking at :eyebrows: i sort of knew something was wrong when it started jumping :rolleyes:.
I have some mini digital scales but they don't work (rubbish) can you recommend something not too hard on the purse if possible :)
Hi Chris,
These are what I use - very accurate with a nice large and clear display:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Digital-Stylus-Force-Gauge-scales-/390278789474?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ade6db962
Trust me, good digital scales are invaluable - it's the only way of accurately measuring VTF, and being able to experiment properly in that area, with subsequent sonic benefits.
Btw, please note the edit on my last post regarding mass :)
Marco.
I have some mini digital scales but they don't work (rubbish) can you recommend something not too hard on the purse if possible :)
Marco's suggestion is a good one, although that scale (which measures to 3 decimal points) can sometimes be obtained for a little less money.
If you are on a tight budget and can tolerate measuring hundredths instead of thousandths of grams, you will not do better than this:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/digital-precision-scale-with-leather-case-5g-max-0-01g-resolution-16269
but you will have to fork out a couple of extra bucks for the calibration weight.
These scales are all made by Canrong. I have the model that does do thousandths and certainly appreciate it-seems to me I bought it for about $65 4-5 years ago. You'll find it "branded" at much higher prices though.
chris@panteg
05-02-2011, 01:40
Thanks guy's , got to sort something out i did use to have the shure scales ' some years back, but they and the cheap Ortofon scales wouldn't give me that precise 2.6 though !
Does 0.1 of a gram really make that much difference ! Marco , got to hear it if does though:)
Does 0.1 of a gram really make that much difference ! Marco , got to hear it if does though:)
Yes, in my experience it does. The window, in fact, is even tighter than that, more in the .025 range (I've heard some really anal retentive audiophiles state in the .010 range) with some cartridges.
And that is why a good digital guage is invaluable. Even with top quality equipment, VTF can drift out a bit from time to time and issues like temperature and humidity factor significantly on VTF when you are talking small increments like that.
A top quality guage that can really dial it in is thus very important and a bit of a bargain at $60 or so.
Hi Chris,
I would agree with Blake. Sonically optimising an analogue system, particularly one where a turntable is used, is a totally different ball game from doing the same with digital.
The difference is in the amount of physical interfaces involved, and how they interact with each other - and one of the most crucial interfaces, sonically, is the behaviour between the stylus and the record groove, where the minutest of adjustments can often result in quite a dramatic and easily heard sonic improvement.
So, yes, increasing VTF by 0.1 of a gram will make a difference! ;)
With the 103, in my experience, increasing VTF from 2.5 to 2.6g removes a 'sheen' and 'hi-finess' from the sound, adding more weight and solidity, but without muting the high frequency response or midrange clarity, giving a more secure and stable sound, whilst bringing out the slam and attack and 'organic musicality' the 103 is renowned for, thanks to its use of Alnico magnets.
However, as with anything in hi-fi, results will vary from system to system, so the final arbiter, as always, must be your own ears :)
Marco.
chris@panteg
06-02-2011, 02:12
Hi Marco
Had another listen this evening , and i think perhaps the 309 is not a good match after all , some records sound pretty good , other's have a tendency to harshness and it seems very unforgiving of less than perfect vinyl !
Some recordings still sound very coarse and grating , while other's have impressive detail , bit of a mixed bag , it reminds me a bit of a decca super gold , that could be a very unforgiving performer in the wrong arm .
So after initially being quite excited by this 103 , i now feel its probably not for me , a shame as i really wanted it to work , but i strongly suspect it needs a different arm , the counter weight being so far back ! Cannot be a good thing , so its back to the 160 for now and my original plan to go for an MP150 or MP200 .
Hi Chris,
That's a shame, but you certainly tried your best.....
However, what this ably demonstrates is why I always say that the only modern tonearm to use with a 103 is the Jelco SA-750, fitted with a high-mass headshell and heavy counterweight balance.
Ultimately, try as one might, one cannot defeat the laws of physics! ;)
However, good luck on finding your ideal cartridge. To be totally honest, whilst the Nags are superb, at the end of the day they still have the sonic limitations of being MMs.
What you really need is one of these: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/audio-technica-NEW-MC-cartridge-AT33PTG-II-/200539073821?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eb10f6d1d&afsrc=1
That will work like a dream in your 309 and put you in audio nirvana, trust me! :cool:
Marco.
What you really need is one of these: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/audio-technica-NEW-MC-cartridge-AT33PTG-II-/200539073821?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eb10f6d1d&afsrc=1
That will work like a dream in your 309 and put you in audio nirvana, trust me! :cool:
Agreed, but at that price you must consider the DV20X2L at £499 too.
Indeed, although my gut feeling says that the 'feistier' sonic signature of the AT will suit the 309 more :)
Marco.
Indeed, although my gut feeling says that the 'feistier' sonic signature of the AT will suit the 309 more :)
Indeed, and probably Chris' system more. Just putting the idea out there, although I acknowledge that it's damned difficult to demo cartridges and we nearly always end up buying blind based on what we read, past experience and gut feel.
Chris - I could demo the AT versus the DV for you, but I know you're a long way away. However, the offer is there :)
prestonchipfryer
06-02-2011, 12:21
Agreed, but at that price you must consider the DV20X2L at £499 too.
Is there a lot of difference between the DV 20X2L and the DV 20X2H? Apart from the H able to use a MM input. If not perhaps Chris might me interested. Apologies for thread drift.
John
chris@panteg
06-02-2011, 15:19
Hi Chris,
That's a shame, but you certainly tried your best.....
However, what this ably demonstrates is why I always say that the only modern tonearm to use with a 103 is the Jelco SA-750, fitted with a high-mass headshell and heavy counterweight balance.
Ultimately, try as one might, one cannot defeat the laws of physics! ;)
However, good luck on finding your ideal cartridge. To be totally honest, whilst the Nags are superb, at the end of the day they still have the sonic limitations of being MMs.
What you really need is one of these: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/audio-technica-NEW-MC-cartridge-AT33PTG-II-/200539073821?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eb10f6d1d&afsrc=1
That will work like a dream in your 309 and put you in audio nirvana, trust me! :cool:
Marco.
I'm inclined to agree ! its possible with a heavier weight on the 309 it may work better but at what cost ? i suspect its £200-300 , i also tried loading at 33 ohms , it sounded more damped but still that harshness was evident , its clearly an outstanding cartridge i can tell that much.
But i just feel the 309 is not happy with this beast of a cartridge , its not tracking or tracing distortion i'm hearing , but kind of like vibrational distortion or does that sound daft , John ' over on the TS forum uses a V with the damping thingy ,he's getting great results.
chris@panteg
06-02-2011, 15:46
Indeed, and probably Chris' system more. Just putting the idea out there, although I acknowledge that it's damned difficult to demo cartridges and we nearly always end up buying blind based on what we read, past experience and gut feel.
Chris - I could demo the AT versus the DV for you, but I know you're a long way away. However, the offer is there :)
Hi Martin
That's a very kind offer and i may well take you up on it :), Basingstoke isn't that far , the AT is very enticing ' the DV looks no slouch either , any thought's on Lyra's ?
Hi Chris
Well, if you can make it then by all means come over! I can do most evenings given a little notice. I only know the Lyra from other systems and find it hard to comment except that it's in the crystal clear but canted towards mid/high frequencies class of cartridges.
BTH K10A
06-02-2011, 21:55
Yup, Martin, I know, but that's precisely why I always bang on that to optimise a 103 properly you need a high-mass detachable headshell arm (and heavy counterweight) to deal with these sort of issues!! ;)
The 103 is not in any way a 'normal' cartridge by today's standards.
Marco.
I used a Denon DA-302 to for my DL-103 until I dropped it ino a spare TSD headshell (not any easy job). The denon was originally supplied with a very light plastic headshell which goes against current thinking. I used an ADC magnesium headshell (again light).
I remember It gave best results around the 2.5g marks and after a lot of playing aroud with the VTA the results were good enough for me to want to try it on the EMT's.
The Denon is an old design which bears more than a passing resemblence to an early Ortofon but it does work well with th 103.
Ignore the OM30, I stuck that on to balance the arm for the photo
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0817.jpg
I used a Denon DA-302 to for my DL-103 until I dropped it ino a spare TSD headshell (not any easy job). The Denon was originally supplied with a very light plastic headshell which goes against current thinking. I used an ADC magnesium headshell (again light).
I remember It gave best results around the 2.5g marks and after a lot of playing aroud with the VTA the results were good enough for me to want to try it on the EMT's.
The Denon is an old design which bears more than a passing resemblence to an early Ortofon but it does work well with the 103.
Ignore the OM30, I stuck that on to balance the arm for the photo
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0817.jpg
Agree about fitting the DL103 to a TSD-G! I gave up on my first attempt to fit the Denon into the headshell: the pins on my sample were just too long and clashed with the back of the shell. Have been more successful with second samples of both the 103 and a TSD-G.
In time, I too will try that combination on my 930/929, and then in turn, compare the DL103 with the TSD-15.
Regards
BTH K10A
06-02-2011, 22:50
Agree about fitting the DL103 to a TSD-G! I gave up on my first attempt to fit the Denon into the headshell: the pins on my sample were just too long and clashed with the back of the shell. Have been more successful with both a second samples of the 103 and a TSD-G.
In time, I too will try that combination on my 930/929, and then in turn, compare the DL103 with the TSD-15.
Regards
I shortened the pins on both the headshell and cartridge and soldered the leads. Even then it was a tight fit.
If you use the 103 on your 930 you will need to alter the tonearm height. Unless you have one of the EMT height adjustment templates it may be worth marking the shaft so that you can easily return it back to standard.
I have seen a pic of a 103R mounted "nude" in an EMT headshell with what looked like a small steel or alloy base plate. Leads were flying like the TSD and it looked good. You need to have a steady hand to perform that kind of surgury though.
Andy
I shortened the pins on both the headshell and cartridge and soldered the leads. Even then it was a tight fit.
If you use the 103 on your 930 you will need to alter the tonearm height. Unless you have one of the EMT height adjustment templates it may be worth marking the shaft so that you can easily return it back to standard.
I have seen a pic of a 103R mounted "nude" in an EMT headshell with what looked like a small steel or alloy base plate. Leads were flying like the TSD and it looked good. You need to have a steady hand to perform that kind of surgury though.
Andy
Yes - I have done similar but in reverse: fitting a 'nude' EMT TSD-15 into an EIA fitting magnesium alloy headshell.
BTH K10A
06-02-2011, 23:24
Yes - I have done similar but in reverse: fitting a 'nude' EMT TSD-15 into an EIA fitting magnesium alloy headshell.
Yes, done the same myself. It worked well but I used it no more that a dozen times before I did something stupid and bent the cantilever. :( I keep meaning (for the last 8 years) to send it off for repair
chris@panteg
07-02-2011, 12:08
Hi Chris
Well, if you can make it then by all means come over! I can do most evenings given a little notice. I only know the Lyra from other systems and find it hard to comment except that it's in the crystal clear but canted towards mid/high frequencies class of cartridges.
Hi Martin
I was rather taken by the Dorian when i heard it in this deck at the London show , great system by Tom Tom audio.
http://www.tomtomaudio.co.uk/images/show2010/tt-show6.jpg
Hi Chris,
James puts together some good systems at shows, simply because he knows his equipment, its strengths and limitations, and thus which components synergise well together, sonically.
The components which make up the T/T shown are testament to that.
I reckon that the Dorian would work well in your SME, with the latter damping the treble excesses of the former, likely to good effect :)
Much would depend on the overall sonic balance of your system, which I don't know.
Decisions, decisions, eh? ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
08-02-2011, 10:14
Hi Marco
Yes i met James once , a nicer chap you couldn't wish to meet !
looking at the price of a Dorian , its quite a bit more than i would want to spend to be honest ,will have to think carefully about that .
Going back to the DL160 is interesting , it seems a happier match to the 309 but at the same time it seems a boring cart next to the 103 ! despite the problems i had , there is a certain life and way of presenting music which seems much more natural or in other words less obvious as a mechanical tool for replaying music .
Its difficult for me to put into words as i lack the skill here (poor grammar too)
but the 103 has an organic quality to it , it sounds whole rather than pieces of music thrown together , i'm not saying the DL160 is bad ' far from it but it does sound more hifi than the 103 ' if that makes any sense , but i'm not convinced sticking it in heavy metal body is the answer ! i just feel it needs some form of damping , like on the Rock TT ?
The SA version is probably a different ball game though .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.