View Full Version : Reverse expectation bias
magiccarpetride
19-01-2011, 19:49
Howdy people, I wanted to discuss an interesting phenomenon that I've noticed keeps happening to me. I call it 'reverse expectation bias' (for the lack of a better term).
What seems to be happening to me is that each time I make a modification to my audio system, if I happen to be skeptical about its effects, I end up being blown away by the very audible improvements. And conversely, each time I make a mod that I'm thinking ought to make a difference, I get a 'meh' impression.
Is this a documented psychological trait/issue? I know that a lot of people are talking about the 'expectation bias', whereby whatever you expect to get you basically do get. However, I think my situation is fundamentally different. I'm not sure whether it's because I was born dyslexic, or because I keep having way too much sex for my age? You know, like the Energizer bunny...
Trickie_Dickie
20-01-2011, 05:41
I think I would agree with you. It would explain why, all my life, I've expected so much and got so little. Including the sex. :cool:
The Vinyl Adventure
20-01-2011, 09:28
Maybe it's a psychological double bluff ...
You want to be te type of person who isnt fooled by expectation bias to the point that you convince your self on a subconscious level that a major upgrade isnt gonna make any odds
Then when it comes to minor things you have decided subconsciously that you have such good ears (because of the reverse of expectation bias happening in the first instance) that you can hear big changes ...
Thus its still expectation bias at play... Just your own personal experience of it ...
:)
Or maybe it's just a coincidence ...
this I think is actually called the nocebo effect ....as opposed to the placebo effect .
I've experienced the same ......and in one instance had to spend the near £1k to get the effect in my own system ...
I witnessed a demo by phonosophie they had a cd treatment ..witrh a spray ....called cd flux
now I've never been a fan of cd treatments ...having tried or listen to the most common ..auric's etc
but the cd flux demo was quite astonishing ........I had to sit through the whole deep again latter in the afternoon ...but bottled out of spending the £75 on thebottle . the following year at the same show venue ...phonosophie were there again ...same demo same results .......
I bought a bottle!
and yes Iworked the same on my cd's ...interestingly the bottle is supposed to treat about 500 cd ...but I've done 1500 with a half bottle remaining ...for those of you who are interested in such things .
At the same demo phonosophie also showed a room animator ....a small machined aluminium puck with a blue led on top ....
now I'm not the sort of person easily swayed by sales person demo antic ..but something very odd was going on !
this had a stagering effect on the coherence of the stero image ...allowing you [as one person described it ] as being able to hear the spaces between the instraments.
yes ...I had a home demo of the blue light and yes it again did its magic ....and yes I bought it
I've dragged this unit around the country when visiting people ...I'd say that 95% of those that have heard the unit ...experienced the repeatable effect it creates....I still after 5 years have no relaible explaination as to why it does what it does .....
having carried out a few experiments ....it appears to effect the air [through which sound of course travels] using a joss stick next to the unit in a closed draft free room the smoke with the unit off would rise in a laminar fashion for about 30cm above the burning tip.
with the unit switched on this distance was nearly a metre.....
how or why this works I've no idea .... or if this is whats effecting the sound .....
I hope thes illistration show that your not alone in your experience.
I've dragged this unit around the country when visiting people ...I'd say that 95% of those that have heard the unit ...experienced the repeatable effect it creates....I still after 5 years have no relaible explaination as to why it does what it does .....
Yes indeed young sir, you brought your little blue lighted puck down to Cornwall and if memory serves me well I ended up with a headache :scratch: That outcome wasn't the issue though, it was the fact that we were both surprised that despite any expectation there was an entirely unpredicted outcome - the way it should be. At least it showed the little device was doing something - albeit unexplained.
The Vinyl Adventure
21-01-2011, 11:07
Can i see a photo of this little led thing?
it effects smoke from a incense stick... thats nuts!
I try to ensure that everytime I do an A/B I don't care what the result is
Can i see a photo of this little led thing?
it effects smoke from a incense stick... thats nuts!
http://www.phonosophie.de/International/eraumanimator.html
aquapiranha
21-01-2011, 13:29
I would be very interested to see some properly researched 'proof' that this does anything whatsoever. If you believe the hype the have written on the site....
Whenever we listen to the music from a HiFi system, we need air in our room to transmit the sound. The more evenly arranged is the “sound conductivity” of the air, the better the acoustic behaviour of the room.
In practice this means: increased dynamics, high resolution, more detail and improved spatial definition, a more accurate bass rendition, and a more live feel to the musical rendition.
and I don't, then you would assume that this tiny device is able somehow to rearrange the air molecules in the room, utter tosh. YMMV :rolleyes:
another of their miracle devices..
http://www.phonosophie.de/International/eaudioanimator.html
again, just wordy bullshit, no descriptions of its construction, method of operation or anything, just more rubbish hyperbole.
This kind of crap gets my goat, in a shrinking minority interest arena, we are being painted as fools by the mainstream because unscrupulous people make money out of the weak with shit like this. I am becoming closer daily to distancing myself from it altogether, closing the door and listening to music. When I tell people I like music, I deliberatly do not use the term audiophile because it conjures images of sad old men who believe anything they are told. Rant over, for now.
So what does the Phonosophie room animator actually do? What is inside the box? Apart from a blue LED obviously.
No idea at all what's inside the blessed thing because it's a sealed box.
Again, if memory serves me well, we lit a joss stick next to it and it made a nice pattern - like a wobbly ladder
No idea at all what's inside the blessed thing because it's a sealed box.
Somebody must know?
The Vinyl Adventure
22-01-2011, 17:36
Was the joss stick thing not just a coincidence ... They just do the wiggly ladder thing as they burn don't they?
What could it possibly be expelling that would make that happen ... Unless it has a tiny little fan in it?
Reid Malenfant
22-01-2011, 18:24
Unless it has a tiny little fan in it?
In a sealed box? :D How would the breeze get out?...
It sounds to me like it's generating either some kind of vibrations or static of one form or another :scratch:
Frankly anything with no decent explanaition from the manufacturer should be classed as snake oil, there are already a few bits on here already unfortunately :rolleyes:
Reid Malenfant
22-01-2011, 18:35
Ioniser?
Not really no, to ionize you'd need to generate a high voltage & apply it to either fine carbon fibres or sharpened needles. An ionizer works by spitting off negatively charged ions & these will only be available from something very fine indeed. This is why most common ionizers pack up as the needles blunt :rolleyes:
If it's a sealed case then that's out the window..
All I can relate to you guys is what I experienced.
Pete brought this contraption down to Cornwall singing it's praises and when he parked it betwixt my system and the listening position on the floor, then plugged it so the blue LED lit up. Within a minute I started getting pressure in my sinuses followed by a headache. He switched it off and the sinus pain and headache went immediately. To prove the point he plugged it in again and the same thing happened once more.
He said that if you light a joss stick next to it, it would "disturb" the rising smoke, which it did, each time it was plugged and unplugged. Arguably, the smoke from a candle or joss stick isn't stable, reliable or an objective test. Now you would think this thing would be jumping up and down or at least buzzing, so a touch with a finger would detect that easily, but it did none of those things :scratch:
So, if Pete has conditioned my mind into believing this little silver puck with a blue LED on top would create an "expectation bias" to hear wonderful sounds from my hi-fi, then that theory got well and truly shot down in flames
Reid Malenfant
22-01-2011, 20:32
Frank, do you get the same symptoms before or during or after a thunderstorm? Just asking :)
was there anything else apart from Joss sticks if you know what I mean Lol;)
The Vinyl Adventure
22-01-2011, 21:31
was there anything else apart from Joss sticks if you know what I mean Lol;)
I'm really pleased someone got round to saying that ...
So Its didn't positively effect the sound?
Where I work, surrounded by loads of tvs and hifi, when I started my migraines got more frequent... Then a chap called Ad started and he got nose bleeds for the first 2 weeks...
aquapiranha
22-01-2011, 22:04
I have spoken with Pete about this miraculous device a couple of years ago on another forum, and though I doubt he will remember it, there was a bit of hoo-har over it then. My problem is that the manufacturer gives no description of how it is supposed to work or what it contains, we are just supposed to take their word that it does something and is worth the money. Plus, the meager description they do give about it couldnt be more ambiguous. :rolleyes:
The Vinyl Adventure
22-01-2011, 22:07
How much is it?
Reid Malenfant
22-01-2011, 22:10
I have spoken with Pete about this miraculous device a couple of years ago on another forum, and though I doubt he will remember it, there was a bit of hoo-har over it then. My problem is that the manufacturer gives no description of how it is supposed to work or what it contains, we are just supposed to take their word that it does something and is worth the money. Plus, the meager description they do give about it couldnt be more ambiguous. :rolleyes:
So i guess it can be lumped into the same category as "Bybee Quantum Purifiers" & "Bybee Music Rails" then :eyebrows:
Yet another manufacturer of stuff with no description :eek: :rolleyes: Just fancy names...
aquapiranha
22-01-2011, 22:14
So i guess it can be lumped into the same category as "Bybee Quantum Purifiers" & "Bybee Music Rails" then :eyebrows:
Yet another manufacturer of stuff with no description :eek: :rolleyes: Just fancy names...
dunno about that Mark. I think the Bybee things go in the signal path or on the power supply so I think there is more chance fo them doing something to the sound. this is just a blue led in a box with some liquid with glitter floating in it I think lol
Jac Hawk
22-01-2011, 22:14
Is this a documented psychologica trait/issue? I know that a lot of people are talking about the 'expectation bias', whereby whatever you expect to get you basically do get. However, I think my situation is fundamentally different. I'm not sure whether it's because I was born dyslexic, or because I keep having way too much sex for my age? You know, like the Energizer bunny...
1st off buddy a man can never have too much sex :eyebrows:
As far as your main point is concerned i think most of us to some degree have had the same feeling, it doesn't have to be hifi related, anything really, a movie gets rave reviews, you see the trailer and you think it's going to be awesome, then you finally get to see the movie and it doesn't live up to the hype, the flip side is you're flicking through the channels one evening and start to watch a movie you would have never picked out in a million years, and it turnes out to be fantastic.
At the end of the day it's all about the hype and the marketing job that's done on you, raising your expectations, to such a high level that you ultimately can be only disapointed :doh:
Rare Bird
22-01-2011, 22:21
1st off buddy a man can never have too much sex :eyebrows:
You what! hows about avoiding it like the plague :lolsign:
Reid Malenfant
22-01-2011, 22:25
dunno about that Mark. I think the Bybee things go in the signal path or on the power supply so I think there is more chance fo them doing something to the sound. this is just a blue led in a box with some liquid with glitter floating in it I think lol
Hi Steve, yes i tend to agree :) However, if you want to modify anything like a CD clock you can go & do that, you can buy superior capacitors for a PSU or audio - you know what it is!
But please tell me what a "Quantum Purifier" is? :scratch: What are "Music Rails"?, Is it a regulator or some kind of filter, or what? :lol: What is this stuff? You'll find all kind of spiel on the net, even from the manufacturer - but no explanation of what it is...
:rolleyes:
Frank, do you get the same symptoms before or during or after a thunderstorm? Just asking :)
Nope, never do have trouble with sinuses or headaches before, during or after a thunderstorm and there definitely wasn't one on that day :)
How much is it?
About 800 euro IIRC
Sent from my HTC Tattoo using Tapatalk
The Vinyl Adventure
23-01-2011, 00:11
Blimey!
aquapiranha
23-01-2011, 10:29
Blimey!
800 Euro?? Surely that has to be a mistake? I think it is often a ploy by these people to price the stuff really high, otherwise you might think it is 'not expensive' enough to make a difference if you see what I mean?
To those who think it works, despite an explanation or list of ingredients, I understand that there are millions of people who swear blind they have seen a UFO, again without a single shred of proof, just hearsay - sounds familiar!
:ner:
Methinks you are getting too much into a froth over these things Steve.
I am willing to bet that for every person that buys one of these mysterious boxes there will be many countless millions with good intuition that are doing a perfectly good job of NOT buying it and at that sales level it will wither away on it's own :eyebrows:
I do agree though that they should reveal the mechanisms (if any) that lie behind this little foo box
they should reveal the mechanisms that lie behind this little foo box
Might be tricky to justify the price tag if they do. It's probably something very simple and inexpensive. My bet is that the box is the most expensive part of it.
Probably a microwave emitter and you're all going to get cancer! ;0)
aquapiranha
23-01-2011, 16:55
Methinks you are getting too much into a froth over these things Steve.
I am willing to bet that for every person that buys one of these mysterious boxes there will be many countless millions with good intuition that are doing a perfectly good job of NOT buying it and at that sales level it will wither away on it's own :eyebrows:
I do agree though that they should reveal the mechanisms (if any) that lie behind this little foo box
You might be right Frank, I do get animated over stuff like this, but only because I consider it another form of fraud, and therefore beneath contempt!
that and the fact that the fact that it makes audiphiles look bloody ridiculous too! :lol:
that and the fact that the fact that it makes audiphiles look bloody ridiculous too!
I agree, but then I have a big pile of Mana so I can't say too much! I have half an idea how Mana works though but the electric hockey puck?
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