View Full Version : Denon 103 review
I found a denon 103 review on the internet by Ken Kessler, who say what you like, does have huge experience of all things analogue. This line jumped out at me:
"At under £100, and working enchantingly, no, make that almost magically in a Rega arm, it has to be - after three-and-a-half decades - the entry-level moving-coil cartridge."
I though the concensus was that the 103 didnt work well in an RB.... let alone 'magically' Is it just a question of taste? or does Kessler know something that we dont?
Hi Darren,
I think it's more likely that the "magically" bit is entirely subjective and dependent on one's available benchmark.
To KK, the 103 may indeed have sounded 'magical' on a Rega tonearm, but perhaps that's because he's never heard how even more 'magical' it sounds on a high-mass vintage tonearm, or the likes of a Jelco SA-750, (fitted with a heavy headshell)? :)
Or he was simply pandering to the 'populist' choice of tonearm in the UK to make life easy for people....
It has to be one or the other, as extensive experience over many years has shown me that if you think a 103 sounds 'magical' on a Rega tonearm, then quite clearly, you've never heard a 103 genuinely sounding magical! ;)
Read Adam Smith's review of a vintage Empire turntable in this month's HFW, where he uses it with a DL-103, and gets quite amazing results, for a taste of what I'm getting at. Then look at the type of tonearm on the Empire, compare it to an RB250 or 300, and wonder how on earth a 103 could possibly perform "magically" on the latter.......
Marco.
Many thanks for your reply Marco. I just wondered that if Kessler, having heard what must be dozens of high end cartridges, thought the Denon sounded Magical on the Rega tonearm. Then this must clearly count for something.
Do you think there is a great deal of sample variation among the Denon carts?
I've not seen the HFW review you mention, but does the 103 sounding good in the Empire tonearm preclude it from sounding good in an RB? Or will it just sound different?
I think you'll find that KK had the cartridge loading correct.
The 103 can sound pretty magical on most arms if it is loaded correctly, which is what most reviewers do not do.
Move the counterweight away from the bearing (further up the arm stub) and you increase the mass of the arm. So the mass of the Rega can be increased.
Also KK used a L-07D for many years, with a SME 312, so I have a feeling he knows about heavier arms.
Hi Gerry,
You may have a point about loading - I hadn't thought of that! It could well have been a factor in KK's 'magical' experience with the 103.
However, in my experience, the 103 LOVES mass, and crucially at the headshell end of a tonearm (typically at least 16g), so no stock Rega tonearm is going to cut it in that respect.
When I had an RB700 (stripped, polished and rewired by J7 at Audio Origami - far better than any stock Rega tonearm), I tried mass-loading the headshell to the appropriate level by fitting a brass 'spacer', and used it with my (then) DL-103R. It was quite good (perhaps 'magical' to some?) but a far cry from the sound I get at the moment when using a 103 with my Jelco SA750 and (16.8g) Ortofon LH-9000 (see link below).
http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=189&Itemid=148
Therefore, Darren, to answer your question, with reference to KK's comments, I suspect that it's a case of, there's 'magical', and then there's MAGICAL! - if you see what I mean? ;)
Or to put it bluntly, a DL-103 (loaded correctly) on a stock Rega tonearm may indeed sound 'magical', but nowhere near as MAGICAL as one would (loaded correctly) on a Jelco SA750/Ortofon LH-9000....
It's a question of benchmarks - i.e. what you're used to.
If you want a tonearm that truly maxes out the performance of a DL-103, then the Jelco/Ortofon combo I mentioned above is the one, or a vintage Jap high-mass tonearm, such as an FR-64S:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/784/fr64s.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/fr64s.jpg/)
...or indeed the (equally) 'battleship-built' Empire tonearm, shown in this month's HFW!! :eek:
I trust that answers your question :)
Marco.
Move the counterweight away from the bearing (further up the arm stub) and you increase the mass of the arm.
This is exactly what I've done with my std Sl1200 arm. I've also sent mine off the Expert Stylus Co for a work over! Should be pretty "Magical" (imho) when it comes back!!! :)
Hi Ian,
That would work, providing it allows for optimal setting of VTF. On a DL-103, this is 2.6g.
Also, if you're using the stock Techie tonearm with a 103, you'll need a much heavier and better quality headshell than the one supplied, which is really only any good for a DJ cartridge.
The Sumiko one (widely available on the 'Net), together with a spacer to add mass, is the most cost-effective option :)
Marco.
Totally agree Marco.....Check out the avatar;)
Nude 103, stabiliser and Sumiko headshell!!
The counter weight has been carefully adjusted to allow for correct set up!
Top man, Ian. Have you had your tonearm rewired, too? If not, there's still plenty more to come! :)
Marco.
Not yet but I've been looking! What do you suggest? I've seen cardas wire on ebay that I could braid myself???
Cardas is the one, Ian, as it's tried and tested with the Techie arm.
Don't go for anything silver, though - just the best copper cable you can afford, terminated in high-quality Cardas phono plugs at one end, and at the other, use Cardas headshell leads with your Sumiko, to keep the cable loom the same :)
Marco.
Something like this??
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170389558244
Also, would you make your own headshell cable with the leftovers??
I can find plated gold plated brass Cardas PCC EG clips but nothing of pure copper??
Hi Ian,
Yes, that's the stuff! I don't see why you can't make your own headshell leads from bits, although you'll have to shield them, and they might be a bit thin and easily broken... The separate headshell leads from Cardas are normally a bit more durable.
The HSL PCC are the best: http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=oem&pagestring=Headshell+Leads&content_id=27
The long-length Cardas 'push on' cartridge tags are the ones you want (if you're making up your own headshell leads), but I think they only come in gold-plated brass :)
Marco.
mike1210
17-01-2011, 18:47
Marco with your Jelco 750D, did you use the Jelco heavy counter weight along with the Ortofon LH-9000 headshell?
Hi Mike,
Yes. It works superbly, as you can get it right up next to the arm's pivot point and still achieve 2.6g VTF with the 103! :)
Marco.
I don't see why you can't make your own headshell leads from bits, although you'll have to shield them, and they might be a bit thin and easily broken... The separate headshell leads from Cardas are normally a bit more durable.
The HSL PCC are the best: http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=oem&pagestring=Headshell+Leads&content_id=27
The long-length Cardas 'push on' cartridge tags are the ones you want (if you're making up your own headshell leads), but I think they only come in gold-plated brass :)
Marco.
Are the cables normally shielded?
Are the VDH ones any good? They seem a bit cheaper than Cardas.
Hi Mike,
Yes. It works superbly, as you can get it right up next to the arm's pivot point and still achieve 2.6g VTF with the 103! :)
Marco.
Marco
That will lower the effective mass of the arm!
You want the weight away from the pivot to increase the effective mass ...just adding a heavier headshell does not work on it's own.
This is what makes calculating effective mass of tone arms so very complicated.
If the HSL PCC are too pricey, then try the HSL PCC E (shown on the link I posted earlier), as I don't really rate the VDH cartridge leads. They won't be any better than the ones supplied with the Sumiko...
Btw, I meant insulated, rather than shielded - soz! :)
Marco.
Marco
That will lower the effective mass of the arm!
You want the weight away from the pivot to increase the effective mass ...just adding a heavier headshell does not work on it's own.
Indeed, Gerry, but it lowers inertia, which is a good thing. If you don't have to increase mass, tonearms sound best with the c/w positioned as close to the pivot point as possible :)
I don't need to increase the mass of the Jelco, because it's quite sufficient as it is with a 16.8g Ortofon headshell fitted, excluding what the stainless steel armtube itself weighs! ;)
Marco.
Marco
I hear what you say, and it was what all the mags suggested...however I find my FR arms and a few other heavy weights (Grace's, Audiocrafts with the high mass arm tubes on, etc) work much better with the 103 and the weight not up against the bearing housing. However each to his own.
I have had numerous heads-hells for years....Phasetechs, Ortofons, Oyadies etc. but the best ever, with a 103 is the Audiocraft AS-4PL, which was designed for the 103.
Hi Gerry,
As usual, all the theories in the world matter not a jot... At the end of the day, all that matters is what your ears tell you, so if you find things sound best that way, then cool! :)
Besides, there are all sorts of other variables to consider.... :rolleyes:
On my T/T, with either the 103 or SPU, it sounds best with the c/w (heavy Jelco one) as close as possible to the arm's pivot point.
Marco.
I have had numerous heads-hells for years....Phasetechs, Ortofons, Oyadies etc. but the best ever, with a 103 is the Audiocraft AS-4PL, which was designed for the 103.
Do you know what was specific to that headshell? All I can find on the net is that it weighs 13.4g! Looking at it, is it all in the additional mass?
If the HSL PCC are too pricey, then try the HSL PCC E (shown on the link I posted earlier), as I don't really rate the VDH cartridge leads. They won't be any better than the ones supplied with the Sumiko...
Btw, I meant insulated, rather than shielded - soz! :)
Marco.
Cheers Marco :-)
Here it is:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1144/80130947.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/80130947.jpg/)
It looks fairly unremarkable to me....
Gerry, where did you get the idea that it was designed for the 103? :)
Marco.
Here it is:
It looks fairly unremarkable to me....
Gerry, where did you get the idea that it was designed for the 103? :)
Marco.
Marco
From reading the instructions which came with it!
Like you, I thought the weight would wrong....but I was wrong.
Much better than the 16g plus Phasetech and ATs I have.
Never judge a book by its cover!
Lol! Look, if it works, it works... I suppose it depends on what arm you use it with :)
My favourite headshells for the 103 are the Ortofon, I mentioned, and my FR S/4:
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7853/b32pnzgbmkkgrhqqokioeyy.jpg (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/b32pnzgbmkkgrhqqokioeyy.jpg/)
Don't ask me how much I paid for it, though! :doh:
Marco.
Lol! Look, if it works, it works... I suppose it depends on what arm you use it with :)Marco.
Marco
It can be used with any of my arms...FR64, Grace G960 & G940, Audiocraft AC3300 & 3000, L-07D, ...these are all heavy (well the ACs are if the right tubes are used).
Of course it may do with being the perfect weight and the counter weight being in the perfect position at the rear of the arm... near perfect mass. I've learnt never to under-estimate Japanese engineering or their eye for detail.
I lent one to Big Vern to try on one of his TT....he seemed very happy.
Physically/mechanically, yes, any detachable headshell arm will be compatible with the Audiocraft headshell... What I meant was sonically, or rather in terms of synergy, with the partnering tonearm and cartridge :)
It won't fit on a Rega, though, for maximum 'magical' effect! :eyebrows:
Anyway, I'll try and find one, pop the 103 on it, and give you my verdict.... :cool:
Marco.
Pete The Cat
25-01-2011, 22:09
I recently plumbed a 103 into an RB300 in order to test a Garrard 401 that I've been messing around with. On a short side-by-side comparison with a 1982 LP12/Ittok/Asak it was extremely competitive, top end was a bit veiled but the mid and bass were definitely fuller and more satisfying. So much so that I was half thinking of holding onto it and fashioning some additional weight onto the headshell as well as a DIY body mod. Yes, a different arm would probably be sensible person's next step... :mental:
Pete
Hi Pete,
Actually, Rega arms work very well on Garrards, so you've got some good synergy there, but of course 103s work less well on Regas.....
The veiled sound you obtained, however, could've perhaps been a trait of the 401, when compared to the LP12/Ittok/Asak combo, which is altogether livelier, mainly because of the upper-mid forwardness of the arm.
An optimally performing 103 should not sound in any way veiled; however, it will lack the unnatural treble emphasis of most modern cartridges, so you should make allowances for that.
Since you've got a 401 and the RB300, and if you like the extended bass and rhythmic qualities of the 103, my advice would be to buy a Rubato copper mat for the 401 (as this will help ameliorate the veiled top end you're getting by reducing the effect of eddy currents from that big lump of iron underneath the platter, called the motor! ;)) and then simply add mass to the Rega's headshell with a spacer. I'd go for around 8g.
Once you've done that, you'll have a pretty good sounding T/T! :cool:
Marco.
The Dynavector headshell is as rare as hen's teeth, but very nicely built and heavy.
http://www.dynavector.com/products/images/507mk2_headshell.jpg
I've just upgraded from Denon dl103 to a Denon dl103r......... What a difference, even from first record and then it just keeps on giving more as it runs in.......... You really need to try this cart if looking for a new one . I've owned some carts that cost lots more than the 103r, £259 from hifix, delivered. This beauty just keeps on giving. Seriously good.
walpurgis
14-04-2016, 16:55
I've just upgraded from Denon dl103 to a Denon dl103r......... What a difference, even from first record and then it just keeps on giving more as it runs in.......... You really need to try this cart if looking for a new one . I've owned some carts that cost lots more than the 103r, £259 from hifix, delivered. This beauty just keeps on giving. Seriously good.
That's exactly what I found. Some prefer the base 103. I just can't see that myself. The 103R must be about the best sounding MC at or near the price. I kept mine until I bought a ZYX. I have heard it said that the 103R is bright. Not in my system it wasn't, it was just right!!
IslandPink
15-04-2016, 17:55
Which ZYX do you use, Geoff ?
I've not heard any of the sub-£1000 ones ( borrowed an Airy R-1000 for a couple of weeks - excellent ) .
There are several high-end MC's I have or have borrowed that have not come up to the standards of the 103R . The Zyx range has some promise though.
walpurgis
15-04-2016, 17:58
Which ZYX do you use, Geoff ?
I have four. R50 Bloom H, R100, R100 H2, R100 Yatra H.
I have four. R50 Bloom H, R100, R100 H2, R100 Yatra H.
note to self: offer to tidy Geoff's closet of mystery if he goes first ;)
Firebottle
15-04-2016, 18:33
...... if he goes first ;)
Stop hoping you bad man Grant :eyebrows:
walpurgis
15-04-2016, 18:34
note to self: offer to tidy Geoff's closet of mystery if he goes first ;)
And there's an Eroica LX, five classic ADCs, a Shure M75E, a Micro Seiki LM-5, two Decca Mk.III Ellipticals, Grado F1+ and one or two others I can't recall at the moment. Not to mention the SUT selection! Then there's the DACs and amps, various interesting speakers and at least eight TTs. Four good CD players/transports and so much more..........:eek:
Stop hoping you bad man Grant :eyebrows:
no-one will bother with mine :D does that make me safer?
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