Rumour on cd-players [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

chris@panteg

12-01-2011, 11:02

I'm pretty sure Linn don't make cd players any more ...
I heard naims current range are the last... Certainly at the top end ...
It's coz cd is rubbish... Or at least completely pointless as a format when it can be bettered for significantly less money playing through a computer and dac or with a streamer ...
:sofa:

:hmm: Hamish , streaming might be better in fact i'm sure it is , until your HDD starts playing up , crashes and then all your music is lost .

I know these SS HHD's are said to be very stable but i simply don't trust this way of storing your music , i prefer a phisical media and think CD will be around for some time yet , plus Linn DS player's are way out of my league so its just as well really .

lovejoy

12-01-2011, 14:24

Digital album downloads only account for 1/5 of total sales. CD is far from dead.

I have a SSD HD in my work laptop. It's super quick and super quiet, but more reliable it is not.

Rare Bird

12-01-2011, 14:28

Just stock pile your fav CD players you'll have enough to last..while the next fad dies

DSJR

12-01-2011, 14:34

Marantz, Linn, Arcam and Rega have stopped cd-player product.

I don't believe Rega have as yet - the Apollo and Jupiter are amongst the best under a grand as it is and Audiolab have just introduced their 8200 series.

As for as the great unwashed feelings out there, vinyl died when CD came out. It's only "we" who still fumble and freak out over vinyl records. Even the DJ fraternity seem to be finally drifting away.

Clive

12-01-2011, 15:45

:hmm: Hamish , streaming might be better in fact i'm sure it is , until your HDD starts playing up , crashes and then all your music is lost .

I know these SS HHD's are said to be very stable but i simply don't trust this way of storing your music , i prefer a phisical media and think CD will be around for some time yet , plus Linn DS player's are way out of my league so its just as well really .
This is all part of the digital world, the same risk applies to your photos. Backing up data is not something you should regard as optional.

The Vinyl Adventure

12-01-2011, 16:01

This is all part of the digital world, the same risk applies to your photos. Backing up data is not something you should regard as optional.

yep, well said ...

and in fact all of my music is backed up twice, once on a 3.5" drive that, if i were crazy and desperate, i could grab in a flash if my house was burning down - try doing that with 500 cd's ... and, i still have my cds as a back up to those 2 back ups ...

so i reality, i am actually more protected against loosing my music collection than you are Chris, you have one copy of your music, I have 4 copies of mine 1 of the being the format that you are relying despite it being a fact that cds are fairly easy to damage to a point that can cause a loss of data in playback ... :ner: ;)

and in fact isnt it true that cds deteriorate over extended periods of time anyway??

also ... i am certain that the Linn majik ds could be "beaten" in some peoples eyes for probably a lot less money ... for eg i have heard it said that the caiman is better (as a dac) at less than 10% the price of the majik dsi... i disagree entirely of course ... as it turns out, i think i just like the way linn source stuff sounds??

Marco

12-01-2011, 16:16

Hi Hamish,

I'm pretty sure Linn don't make cd players any more ...
I heard naims current range are the last... Certainly at the top end ...
It's coz cd is rubbish... Or at least completely pointless as a format when it can be bettered for significantly less money playing through a computer and dac or with a streamer ...
:sofa:

I'm afraid the only people who come out with that pish are those who've never owned a genuinely top-notch CD player! ;)

Try as I might, and I believe me I have, I've yet to hear a computer streaming set-up sonically outperform my Audiocom-modded Sony CDP and DAC.

The convenience bollocks in favour of streaming doesn't interest me one iota, as I enjoy (and always will) the tactile experience of playing records and CDs.

One major thing too in favour of a physical music collection is that it's actually worth something in terms of monetary value, which is more than can be said for WORTHLESS files stored on a hard-drive, no matter how well 'backed-up' they are!! :ner:

My music collection is probably worth more than my hi-fi system, and long may that continue to be the case... Long live CD - but even more so, long live vinyl!!! :cool:

Marco.

Spectral Morn

12-01-2011, 16:26

Well said that man.

Regards D S D L

John

12-01-2011, 16:42

WAD62

12-01-2011, 16:46

They'll probably end up being more for the 'audiophile' market, in the same way TTs have become.

With the popular/commercial market moving towards file based players.

Marco

12-01-2011, 16:51

That still doen't change the fact, chaps, that your computer files are worth diddly-squat! ;)

I would always want my music collection to be worth more than simply memories (although they're very important, too).

Marco.

WAD62

12-01-2011, 16:55

To be honest I have no emotional attachments one way or another and I had a heavily Audiocom mod Nu-vista CD player that sounded bloody good and now use digital based media with no regrets I say its great to have so much choice. What actually worries me is where digital media might be heading. Just having everything virtually stored, so you no longer will have ownership of the album. Lets hope it never truly goes down that road
I still perfer vinyl I must admit it just creates magic

Whilst I was FLACing my CD's one thought did occur to me (given it took me 3 months in total there were several thoughts, I have one a month or so ;)), I've got perfect digital copies of my CD's musical content, and nothing but a scrotty little 200 * 200 JPEG instead of the album art work and sleeve notes.

Someone like Amazon or Itunes could make a fortune by reselling the artwork, owned by the record label, in the form of a PDF, or even artist originals, the sky's the limit!!!

I was thinking of a business venture, but licensing issues would be a nightmare :(

John

12-01-2011, 16:56

For me its more about the emotional connection to music

The Vinyl Adventure

12-01-2011, 16:56

Hi Hamish,

I'm afraid the only people who come out with that pish are those who've never owned a genuinely top-notch CD player! ;)

bah, i had a naim cd5 dont ya know ;) ...

Try as I might, and I believe me I have, I've yet to hear a computer streaming set-up sonically outperform my Audiocom-modded Sony CDP and DAC.

... im not a technical person, but i cant see why if you didnt just replace the cd mech aspect of you player with some sort of streamer or what not, it wouldn't sound the same ... in fact im sure there are reasons why removing a vibrating, magnetic motor wouldn't be an advantage to the sound ... but really im not techy enough for that sort of convo so i wont try :)

The convenience bollocks in favour of streaming doesn't interest me one iota, as I enjoy (and always will) the tactile experience of playing records and CDs.

same reason i like books ... but for my music collection the same doesnt apply... its a personal thing eh

One major thing too in favour of a physical music collection is that it's actually worth something in terms of monetary value, which is more than can be said for WORTHLESS files stored on a hard-drive, no matter how well 'backed-up' they are!! :ner:

My music collection is probably worth more than my hi-fi system, and long may that continue to be the case... Long live CD - but even more so, long live vinyl!!! :cool:

Marco.

I can never understand this frankly bizarre misapprehension that as soon as we music streaming folk switch to streaming we no longer have our cd collections ... what do you think happens? we go out in the garden an ceremonially burn the things (excuse the pun)? ... i still have my cd collection ... it would be illegal for me to sell it and keep the music on my hdd anyway :)

WAD62

12-01-2011, 16:56

That still doen't change the fact, chaps, that your computer files are worth diddly-squat! ;)

Marco.

Tell that to Bill Gates...:lolsign:

By the way Marco, I hear tell of a revolutionary machine called the 'Spinning Jenny'...beware! ;)

Marco

12-01-2011, 17:26

Hi Hamish,

... im not a technical person, but i cant see why if you didnt just replace the cd mech aspect of you player with some sort of streamer or what not, it wouldn't sound the same ... in fact im sure there are reasons why removing a vibrating, magnetic motor wouldn't be an advantage to the sound ... but really im not techy enough for that sort of convo so i wont try :)

Oh, there are perfectly sound technical reasons why removing a physical disc-reading interface from the equation would be a sonically superior solution, and indeed I've heard the results with my own ears.

I'd say that a good streaming system, and one not necessarily that expensive, would outperform almost any CDP produced these days, short of the really hi-end players at say £5k and above.

Thing is, how many people who are into streaming now have owned CDPs of that calibre? The vast majority of folk would've gone from a budget or mid-priced machine (in some cases even DVD players!) and found out very quickly that their cheapo machines were hugely compromised!

Not so with the best vintage players of old, which were built properly in the first place, like battleships, with huge over-specified PSUs, copper-clad casings to shield the internal circuitry from noise (the cheap, noisy, switch-mode PSUs in many music streamers are shocking), and most crucially of all, transport mechanisms that were engineered to be so accurate, that they introduced almost zero error when reading information on CDs. There's a reason you know, why my Sony X-777ES weighs 20KG!! ;)

That is why, owning the type of CDP I do (and combining it with an equally sonically capable DAC), it's nigh-on impossible for me to achieve a sonic upgrade by going the computer streaming route with music, and why your argument only stacks up for those who've come to computer audio via a budget or mid-priced disc player and/or don't currently own a top-notch CDP.... :)

I can never understand this frankly bizarre misapprehension that as soon as we music streaming folk switch to streaming we no longer have our cd collections ... what do you think happens? we go out in the garden an ceremonially burn the things (excuse the pun)?

No, many people I know who use computer audio (your good self excluded, obviously) rip all their CDs onto hard-drives and then SELL their CDs in order to save space!

Therefore, if all you're left with is files on a hard-drive, they're worth bugger all in monetary terms.

Bravo, though, for having the sense to hold onto yours! :cool:

Marco.

Ammonite Audio

12-01-2011, 17:43

When streamed computer audio sounds as good as vinyl, which is something that I have achieved here, there is much to be said for ripping the CDs and using the computer as the preferred source. I just wish I knew why one of my PCs produces utterly glorious sounds, when others do not, even with the same software.

I'm not very good at browsing the whole of my CD collection, tending to pick from a very narrow selection. On the computer, it's nice to flick through the album covers and alight on something that I did not actually intend to listen to, but nevertheless turns out to be very enjoyable. Computer audio offers, for me, the prospect of much greater convenience, delivering potentially better-than-CD performance, and allowing me to listen to a wider cross-section of my music. What's not to appreciate?

So, my vote on this subject is cast very much with Hamish's. I just wish that I understood the computers and why I get such differing musical results from different machines.

The Vinyl Adventure

12-01-2011, 17:46

Hi Hamish,

Oh, there are perfectly sound technical reasons why removing a physical disc-reading interface from the equation would be a sonically superior solution, and indeed I've heard the results with my own ears.

I'd say that a good streaming system, and one not necessarily that expensive, would outperform almost any CDP produced these days, short of the really hi-end players at say £5k and above.

Thing is, how many people who are into streaming now have owned CDPs of that calibre? The vast majority of folk would've gone from a budget or mid-price
d machine (in some cases even DVD players!) and found out very quickly that their cheapo machines were hugely compromised!

Not so with the best vintage players of old, which were built properly in the first place, like battleships, with huge over-specified PSUs, copper-clad casings to shield the internal circuitry from noise (the cheap, noisy, switch-mode PSUs in many music streamers are shocking), and most crucially of all, transport mechanisms that were engineered to be so accurate, that they introduced almost zero error when reading information on CDs. There's a reason you know, why my Sony X-777ES weighs 20KG!! ;)

That is why, owning the type of CDP I do (and combining it with an equally sonically capable DAC), it's nigh-on impossible for me to achieve a sonic upgrade by going the computer streaming route with music, and why your argument only stacks up for those who've come to computer audio via a budget or mid-priced disc player and/or don't currently own a top-notch CDP.... :)

With that in mind id say my argument stacks up for the majority then? ... I'm happy enough with that ;)

No, many people I know who use computer audio (your good self excluded, obviously) rip all their CDs onto hard-drives and then SELL their CDs in order to save space!

Therefore, if all you're left with is files on a hard-drive, they're worth bugger all in monetary terms.

Bravo, though, for having the sense to hold onto yours! :cool:

Marco.

Bugger all indeed ... Well there is no helping those people then ... I'd certainly say that that approach to streaming music is rather foolish ... Especially since it's naughty :)

Marco

12-01-2011, 18:02

With that in mind id say my argument stacks up for the majority then? ... I'm happy enough with that ;)

Yup, definitely for the majority.

If you were to stream a piece of music on your Linn Majik DS (connected to the same DAC as mine), and I were to play the same piece of music on my Sony CDP (connected to the same DAC) on CD, in the same system, both of our sources would sound virtually identical, such is the accuracy of the transport mech in the Sony.

Sadly, that simply wouldn't be the case these days for around 90% of CDPs, if you tried a similar thing, because most of them are SHITE!

Bugger all indeed ... Well there is no helping those people then ... I'd certainly say that that approach to streaming music is rather foolish ... Especially since it's naughty :)

Well, I can assure you that's what many people do!

Marco.

magiccarpetride

12-01-2011, 18:10

This is all part of the digital world, the same risk applies to your photos. Backing up data is not something you should regard as optional.

Very important detail. Currently, I have my entire music library stored on 4 backup devices (2 at home, 2 in the office). Chances are slim to none that all 4 backups will crash at the same time.

Even so, I'm now thinking about acquiring a 5th backup storage device (now that's I've noticed that 1 TB drives are selling for $70.00). That's a very small price to pay to ensure longevity of your library.

I also have all my music on original CDs, as well as copied to the backup DVDs.

In addition to that, I'm eyeing the cloud, services such as Amazon S3, which offer digital media storage for 14 cents per gigabyte per month. Admittedly, still quite expensive, but I believe prices are eroding. One day, it'll be feasible to keep your music (or, at least, your most favorite tunes) out in the cloud.

WAD62

12-01-2011, 18:28

In addition to that, I'm eyeing the cloud, services such as Amazon S3, which offer digital media storage for 14 cents per gigabyte per month. Admittedly, still quite expensive, but I believe prices are eroding. One day, it'll be feasible to keep your music (or, at least, your most favorite tunes) out in the cloud.

Bang on Alex, and sooner than we think too...

Welder

12-01-2011, 18:57

I’ve heard a couple of rather nice file audio setups now. I’m not talking about one box do it all solutions such as the Linn but purpose built, no moving parts, silent computers, remote Dac etc. If you want first class file audio I’m convinced this is the way to go.
I never really got into CD players, I had a couple of relatively cheap but reasonable sounding units for the sake of convenience for a while but if anything made what gets described as digital sound, these did that.
With file based audio, or even a first class transport, you have the opportunity to “tune” and upgrade by Dac and that’s a very important aspect that often gets overlooked.
Whether a good transport/Dac outperforms a good file/music player/Dac would be an interesting comparison but with regard to a one box CD player, I think file audio will sound better just because of the option to use a higher quality Dac.

The deciding factor has to be the file audio based systems ability to play at higher resolutions than a CD transport. Granted good quality hi res files are few and far between and choice is very limited but for the few there are, it’s hard to see how any transport based system can hope to compete no matter how good it is as it can only play redbook ;)

WAD62

12-01-2011, 19:19

My audiolab CDM is a very good transport, but it's no better than standard FLAC playback...add to that I can now upsample the FLAC file with a relatively cheap computer, to a better quality than CD and there's no contest.

A lot of you seem to be missing the point as to the potential of streaming file based music...

I can access the same FLAC library from any room in the house, multi room systems are easy to set up, I can create and play playlists of my choice, I can listen to music via random play, I can synchronise all of my players, or if I choose I can listen to entirely different things in each room, and with replay gain and crossfading I don't even have to worry about anything.

Oh and I can controll all of this from my android phone with a £2.50 app

Until you have experienced these capabilities, and got used to having them, you really do not appreciate the benefits of a file based/network system.

When my router went down and I had to fall back to playing CDs it was like going back to the stone age.

Time to change the CD/Record again chaps...whereas my current playlist has about 3 days left to run ;)

Haselsh1

12-01-2011, 19:35

Ya know I just can't make my bloody mind up. CD or vinyl...? At the moment I do not have any means of playing vinyl but I am absolutely sure that will right itself in the future. I adore the 'proper' artwork that comes with vinyl and adore the beautiful, softish, delicate sound that vinyl has with its fabulous sense of depth but I also love the sheer convenience of CD. Laptops and PC's...? Shit. I have no intenetion of following yet another stupid trend that is mere fashion. I am too old.

Rare Bird

12-01-2011, 20:21

To be honest i don't know why i'm moaning cos i don't listern to any tripe past 1973 so nothings new to me, once i have all i want it's a matter of just stock piling CD players or lazers for the machines i have.

Barry

12-01-2011, 20:23

Rare Bird

12-01-2011, 20:27

So you only listen to pre 1973 tripe? ;)

:lolsign:

PRYML

12-01-2011, 20:49

Personally, I don't think CD players and turntables will ever go away :)

Even if the big companies stop making them, I believe there'll be "cottage" industries thriving, still catering to people like me ;)

Every CD/vinyl I ever bought has a memory attached to it; how I came to know of the artist/song and my effort in acquiring the CDs/vinyl etc :)

Clive

12-01-2011, 20:57

I suppose there with be some way of playing CDs but vinyl will be much more lasting. I can see there being more record decks than CDPs in 10 years. What CDPs exist at that time will be rather like cassette decks today, mostly in ancient boom boxes owned by elderly people.....anyone vaguely young will have grown up with PCs and iPods, why would they use CDPs? Vinyl is different, it's much more extreme and will have a small but significant following. I don't buy that CDs have a tactile experience, they clearly do for a few people but they are the exception, not the rule.

PRYML

12-01-2011, 21:22

What CDPs exist at that time will be rather like cassette decks today, mostly in ancient boom boxes owned by elderly people.....

:lol:

Turntables are certainly a more tactile experience than a top-loading be-tubed CDP :)

However, it's exactly that extra "involvement" of setting a turntable/vinyl and everything else "just right" every time, that drove an obsessive-compulsive tweaker such as myself away into the then-cold embrace of CD! The stress of getting everything perfect all the time will keep me awake at night (more so than now) and keeping the coffers of local psychiatric fraternity full :mental:

Marco

12-01-2011, 21:23

I suppose there with be some way of playing CDs but vinyl will be much more lasting. I can see there being more record decks than CDPs in 10 years. What CDPs exist at that time will be rather like cassette decks today, mostly in ancient boom boxes owned by elderly people.....anyone vaguely young will have grown up with PCs and iPods, why would they use CDPs? Vinyl is different, it's much more extreme and will have a small but significant following.

Even if the big companies stop making them, I believe there'll be "cottage" industries thriving, still catering to people like me

Every CD/vinyl I ever bought has a memory attached to it; how I came to know of the artist/song and my effort in acquiring the CDs/vinyl etc...

Hear, hear... My thoughts exactly, chaps! :)

Marco.

Audiocom AV

12-01-2011, 21:26

All the streaming solutions I have tried over the last few years, Squeezebox, Sonos, Olive, have been impressive; the Wadia iPod Dock was a real ear opener.

I am sure as technology continues to progress, (larger flash drives able to store several Terabytes of information with low jitter clocks, low noise power supplies) that for the most part it will edge CD out in performance. It is some way off yet, and CD at least at the higher end is still king.

Marco

12-01-2011, 22:04

Hi Hugo,

When streamed computer audio sounds as good as vinyl, which is something that I have achieved here, there is much to be said for ripping the CDs and using the computer as the preferred source. I just wish I knew why one of my PCs produces utterly glorious sounds, when others do not, even with the same software.

So, my vote on this subject is cast very much with Hamish's. I just wish that I understood the computers and why I get such differing musical results from different machines.

I think almost certainly it'll be down to the respective 'environments', in terms of noise, within the circuits employed in the different machines you've used. Quite simply, some will be more 'hi-fi friendly' in that respect than others.

I would guess that the machines you've used with better power supply arrangements and internal components will be the ones you've had better results with.

The fact is, computers are bloody noisy things compared to the much 'quieter' environment for music presented by a well-engineered CDP. That's one of the reasons why Linn and Naim's streaming solutions (for example) cost as much as they do, because getting the 'noise environment' for music right, when computers are employed, is problematic and expensive to solve...

That is also why, gaining access to more new music aside, computer audio holds about as much interest for me as shoving a rusty nail up my Jap's eye....!! ;)

Marco.

Mr Pig

12-01-2011, 22:09

I would think that the likes of Linn and Naim stopped making CD players because the development costs were too high for the relatively small numbers they sold in their area of the market. I'm sure CD players will be around for years yet.

Streaming, downloads and other forms of file sharing are the future though. No question.

Ali Tait

12-01-2011, 22:23

Hi Hugo,

I think almost certainly it'll be down to the respective 'environments', in terms of noise, within the circuits employed in the different machines you've used. Quite simply, some will be more 'hi-fi friendly' in that respect than others.

I would guess that the machines you've used with better power supply arrangements and internal components will be the ones you've had better results with.

The fact is, computers are bloody noisy things compared to the much 'quieter' environment for music presented by a well-engineered CDP. That's one of the reasons why Linn and Naim's streaming solutions (for example) cost as much as they do, because getting the 'noise environment' for music right, when computers are employed, is problematic and expensive to solve...

That is also why, gaining access to more new music aside, computer audio holds about as much interest for me as shoving a rusty nail up my Jap's eye....!! ;)

Marco.

That may often be the case Marco, but I'm using a HD connected directly to a Squeezebox Touch.No PC involved, except to upload new music to the HD. The Touch is known as a low jitter source. Sounds great feeding my AN dac.

magiccarpetride

12-01-2011, 22:36

I can never understand this frankly bizarre misapprehension that as soon as we music streaming folk switch to streaming we no longer have our cd collections ... what do you think happens? we go out in the garden an ceremonially burn the things (excuse the pun)? ... i still have my cd collection ...

This is due to the fact that people tend to think in terms of black-and-white. It's always either-or. We live in a world that's very antagonistic by nature. Either you're with us, or you're against us.

People always assume, in a knee jerk fashion, that the newer technology out of necessity supplants the previous one. Thus, the invention of automobile meant the death of horse-and-carriages. When was the last time you saw a horse pulling a carriage? (actually, I saw one yesterday in the local park).

Same is with audio formats. As soon as people bought their first turntable, they burned all their magnetic reel-to-reel tapes. Later on, as soon as they bought their first cassette player, they burned all their LPs. Later on, as soon as they bought their first CD player, they burned all their cassette tapes. Today, as soon as we buy our first digital streaming player, we march into our back yard and burn all our CDs. Come on people, it's the law!

People are like that -- love to think in a very rigid, linear fashion. There's just no room for any alternatives.

Marco

12-01-2011, 22:40

Hi Alex,

I totally agree (and detest that bullshit)... If I ever end up like that, I'll shove my head in a gas oven! :acid:

People always assume, in a knee jerk fashion, that the newer technology out of necessity supplants the previous one.

Indeed - especially if you're a gullible idiot, prone to falling for marketing spiel, who can't think for himself! ;)

Marco.

Marco

12-01-2011, 22:43

Hi Ali,

That may often be the case Marco, but I'm using a HD connected directly to a Squeezebox Touch.No PC involved, except to upload new music to the HD. The Touch is known as a low jitter source. Sounds great feeding my AN dac.

No doubt. Maybe that's the route Hugo should follow? :)

Marco.

Mr Pig

12-01-2011, 22:47

If I ever end up like that, I'll shove my head in a gas oven!

That sounds rather like bull sh** to me! ;0)

Mr Pig

12-01-2011, 22:51

one of the most pleasing parts is choosing a CD from the rack taking it out of the case, reading the inlay etc. To select a cold track with a mouse from a list is just that a cold experience

Well bugger me! Who would've thought we'd see nostalgia over CD! ;0)

The warmth of the CD experience, ha ha ha ha ha ha......

Rare Bird

12-01-2011, 22:54

At least it's a proper source Mr Pig

Mr Pig

12-01-2011, 22:57

At least it's a proper source Mr Pig

Well it's just he same, a digital file, but on one kind of disk rather than another.

magiccarpetride

12-01-2011, 23:03

Well bugger me! Who would've thought we'd see nostalgia over CD! ;0)

The warmth of the CD experience, ha ha ha ha ha ha......

Just you wait -- pretty soon people will be shedding crocodile tears over the warm nostalgic days when they were choosing their music by physically clicking the track with an analog device -- a physical mouse! So warm, so cuddly, so intimate. Nothing beats the feeling of holding that little piece of plastic, rolling it up and down the desk, stopping for a life-changing nano second, then -- bam! -- clicking on it! The next thing you know, you have your favorite music playing...

Aw, those were the days!

Marco

12-01-2011, 23:03

That sounds rather like bull sh** to me! ;0)

Lol - why? I can honestly say that I've never followed trends for following trends sake. Only if I decide that the new technology being offered is better than what it replaced, do I embrace it.

Witness the fact that I still use vinyl as my primary source, shun computer audio in favour of a hi-end, properly engineered vintage CDP, prefer valves to transistors, prefer analogue tuners to DAB ones, favour old speakers over new, and even use a CRT TV in preference to a plasma screen - oh and I've had the same mobile phone for nearly six years, which I only use to make and receive calls, and send the very occasional text....

I could go on! ;)

I don't need anyone to tell me what is best for me, or to follow trends, sheep-like, because I have the gumption to think and to judge things for myself!

Marco.

Mr Pig

12-01-2011, 23:15

Lol - why?

You would actually put your head in a gas oven?

Not a good way to kill yourself though. You could blow up a perfectly good house. Jumping off a building is no better as I reckon you'd change your mind on the way down. And forget pills. You might get the dosage wrong and accidentally have a good time!

Marco

12-01-2011, 23:20

Ok then, I'll just move to Airdrie - that should do it, seeing the state of the zoomers that cut about the place there, your good self excluded of course! :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

magiccarpetride

12-01-2011, 23:22

You would actually put your head in a gas oven?

What's so terrible about putting one's head in a gas oven? I did exactly that the other day, as I was cleaning the stove. Not necessarily an extremely pleasant experience, but still nothing particularly wrong or bad about it.

Barry

13-01-2011, 00:00

Lol - why? I can honestly say that I've never followed trends for following trends sake. Only if I decide that the new technology being offered is better than what it replaced, do I embrace it.

Witness the fact that I still use vinyl as my primary source, shun computer audio in favour of a hi-end, properly engineered vintage CDP, prefer valves to transistors, prefer analogue tuners to DAB ones, favour old speakers over new, and even use a CRT TV in preference to a plasma screen - oh and I've had the same mobile phone for nearly six years, which I only use to make and receive calls, and send the very occasional text....

I could go on! ;)

I don't need anyone to tell me what is best for me, or to follow trends, sheep-like, because I have the gumption to think and to judge things for myself!

Marco.

What about the advent of the screw-top wine bottles or the use of plastic 'corks'? (Even Château Margaux are conducting a 5 year trial on the use of plastic stoppers!)

Sorry, straying off topic.

WAD62

13-01-2011, 00:02

You would actually put your head in a gas oven?

Not a good way to kill yourself though. Jumping off a building is no better as I reckon you'd change your mind on the way down.

Reminds me of an old 'Jam' sketch...about the bloke who committed suicide by jumping off a 1st storey window 13 times...just in case he changed his mind half way through. ;)

Marco

13-01-2011, 09:18

What about the advent of the screw-top wine bottles or the use of plastic 'corks'? (Even Château Margaux are conducting a 5 year trial on the use of plastic stoppers!)

That, dear boy, if it materialises, would be a vulgar abomination.

Marco.

Welder

13-01-2011, 09:26

I’m not sure I understand the vehemence of this debate considering it’s over two digital mediums; analogue v digital, yep, no problem, valid arguments on both sides :mental:

Am I “a gullible idiot, prone to falling for marketing spiel, who can't think for himself! ” because I choose file based audio over another source? I would like to think not ;)

While I understand and empathise with Marco’s point regarding what is often rather poorly performing mass market technology produced with built in obsolescence either through product lifetime or fashion change (I have very little of it and my Hi Fi is pretty ancient) I cant see myself committing suicide should I happen to fall prey to the occasional bit of marketing bullshit :lolsign:

Even well sorted CDP have noise problems, both electrical and mechanical while it is possible with a no moving parts SSD in a purpose built music server computer to eliminate the mechanical noise completely; an advantage of file over drive is mechanical noise can be eliminated.
Both CDP and music server have electrical noise, thermal noise and virtually identical problems relating to DA conversion bearing in mind that the digital information on the source material can be considered identical.
Another advantage of file over CDP is the discrete Dac (mentioned earlier)
The above are two reasons solely relating to improvements in sound quality why file has greater potential than CDP.

Take into account the convenience of file based audio, easier access, portability, security (back up) higher resolution, downloads (of any resolution) and its easy to see why the CDP is a redundant form of music replay.

Given most people I believe keep any original CD’s they rip, cover art and more information regarding the CD content can be obtained from the net and embedded in the file the “not having the physical medium” is an irrelevant argument at the moment at least. Should downloaded audio become the norm then hard to obtain files will no doubt have similar value to hard to obtain CD’s. The hope is because file audio is easily stored and transferable the rarer music has a better chance of being widely available; annoying for collectors who buy audio as an investment I’ll grant you :rolleyes:

As well as the above reasons I chose file audio because for a given amount of money spent on a music replay system CDP or computer based, file audio gives better quality now than a CDP with the added convenience and further potential in the future.

There is no contest.
Anyone need an ambulance? :eyebrows:

Marco

13-01-2011, 10:03

Hi John,

Even well sorted CDP have noise problems, both electrical and mechanical while it is possible with a no moving parts SSD in a purpose built music server computer to eliminate the mechanical noise completely; an advantage of file over drive than is no mechanical noise.
Both CDP and music server have electrical noise, thermal noise and virtually identical problems relating to DA conversion bearing in mind that the digital information on the source material can be considered identical.
Another advantage of file over CDP is the discrete Dac (mentioned earlier)
The above are two reasons solely relating to possible improvements in sound quality why file has greater potential than CDP.

Those are all very valid points, which I also agree with. The key bit, though, is "greater potential", with the emphasis on potential.

I think there's little doubt what you say is true, but as of yet I simply haven't heard it with my own ears. I suspect that I'd have to hear a truly top-notch, hi-end music streaming system, playing hi-res files, before it would equal what I'm hearing with CD in my own system, before this potential you speak of would (to me) be realised.

I've heard Linn's and Naim's top-of-the-range streaming set ups, and whilst they're good, none of them really hit the spot - and anything less than that for me isn't at the races.

Basically, it boils down to the quality of one's current benchmark, or to put it simply, what you're used to. After all, I'm sure that those who haven't tasted pure Aberdeen Angus beef from a master butcher, hung and matured for three weeks, would consider the Sainsbury's 'Taste the Difference' variety to be the best they've ever eaten! ;)

Quite simply, anytime I've compared a streaming set-up to my (admittedly highly modified) vintage Sony CDP and DAC, the latter wins by quite a margin in terms of 'musicality' - basically what I would describe as a less 'sterile' and 'artificially processed' sound, and the sense that one is listening to real music, as opposed to a cardboard cut-out of such...

It's difficult to put the exact difference into words, but I'm confident that if you heard it yourself, you'd 'get' where I was coming from.

There's no doubt though, that music streaming is the future of digital audio, and done well, I've got nothing against it - it does indeed have great potential - but for my ears that potential has still to be realised, certainly to the extent that would make me consider ditching my Sony CDP and DAC in favour of a music server, or even introducing one into my system.

For a new source to make it into my system it has to be at least as good as what I've got already, and as far as the music servers I've heard so far goes, that simply hasn't been the case.

Who knows though what the future holds, as standards in that area hopefully continue to improve! :)

Marco.

Marco

13-01-2011, 10:19

Hi Mark,

I am sure as technology continues to progress, (larger flash drives able to store several Terabytes of information with low jitter clocks, low noise power supplies) that for the most part it will edge CD out in performance. It is some way off yet, and CD at least at the higher end is still king.

Indeed - that's it in a nutshell :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure

13-01-2011, 10:26

i just dont think you have heard the right streaming set up ... its your old faithfull mate synergy at play marco
i have heard the klimax sound worse than my majik .. and that was with naim high end amps and ovator s-600's - a potentially good hifi, but it sounded aweful ... i have also heard the klimax sound mind boggling ... admittedly that was with the adam tensor alphas

have you tried one in your system yet? ... have you tried one in your system with your dac yet...

we are talking about moving from a digital to digital source ... there is no reason it cant portray the same as what you like in your cd player ...
and if it cant its not because you like cd players its because you like your cd player ... which of course is fine ... but i dont think it rules out streamers not being as good as cd yet by any stretch ...

Welder

13-01-2011, 10:29

Obviously I haven’t heard your particular setup Marco but I have no doubt it sounds excellent.
I have heard the Linn DS and the Naim Uniticute. I wasn’t particularly impressed with either but listening circumstances were not ideal.
The best file based audio I’ve heard so far is from a purpose built server with no moving parts with xxhighend as the player feeding a metric halo ULN-8 into McIntosh amplification and hand built speakers. Granted the guy who owns this system has spent a considerable amount of time and money getting it sorted to perform in his music room. I thought it sounded better than anything else I’ve heard barring a couple of R2R setups I heard many years ago.
So, I would say to my ears, file audio equaling any other digital replay system is already here.
Whether its better than your system or some other good quality CD replay system I couldn’t really say having not heard that many CDP based systems (never been interested, would rather have R2R if sound quality was the sole criteria). I think at this level it would be a matter of preference rather than outright sound quality.

Marco

13-01-2011, 10:40

Hi Will,

A lot of you seem to be missing the point as to the potential of streaming file based music...

I can access the same FLAC library from any room in the house, multi room systems are easy to set up, I can create and play playlists of my choice, I can listen to music via random play, I can synchronise all of my players, or if I choose I can listen to entirely different things in each room, and with replay gain and crossfading I don't even have to worry about anything.

Oh and I can controll all of this from my android phone with a £2.50 app

Until you have experienced these capabilities, and got used to having them, you really do not appreciate the benefits of a file based/network system.

Only if that sort of malarkey floats yer boat. If it does, that's fine. Gadgetry or 'impressive' shows of technology, however, have never really impressed me.

Personally, the above excites me about as much as sitting with a toothpick, picking corn on the cob out from my solidified stools ;)

Marco (who's off to lift a CD from his rack, pop it into his CDP, and listen to music the non-lazy, old-fashioned way!) :ner:

Marco

13-01-2011, 10:47

Hi John,

The best file based audio I’ve heard so far is from a purpose built server with no moving parts with xxhighend as the player feeding a metric halo ULN-8 into McIntosh amplification and hand built speakers. Granted the guy who owns this system has spent a considerable amount of time and money getting it sorted to perform in his music room.

Now yer talking! I don't doubt that it sounded excellent.

I suspect it would take that level of a carefully chosen, set-up and 'tuned by ear' file-based system, playing the best hi-res files available of my favourite music, to impress me enough to buy into the technology.

Basically, I just don't rate the 'mass-market' solutions, because they fall short of delivering what I'm used to hearing from bog-standard Red Book CD :)

Marco.

Marco

13-01-2011, 11:06

Hi Hamish,

i just dont think you have heard the right streaming set up ... its your old faithfull mate synergy at play marco
i have heard the klimax sound worse than my majik .. and that was with naim high end amps and ovator s-600's - a potentially good hifi, but it sounded aweful ... i have also heard the klimax sound mind boggling ... admittedly that was with the adam tensor alphas

have you tried one in your system yet? ... have you tried one in your system with your dac yet...

we are talking about moving from a digital to digital source ... there is no reason it cant portray the same as what you like in your cd player ...
and if it cant its not because you like cd players its because you like your cd player ... which of course is fine ... but i dont think it rules out streamers not being as good as cd yet by any stretch ...

I'm not disputing any of that. But I can only judge on what I've heard so far. I also only audition equipment in my system *if* it has shown sufficient potential to warrant a home demo. Unfortunately with music streamers that hasn't happened yet, and I'm not about to waste a dealer's time borrowing equipment if I feel there's little chance of me buying it.

I think you need to pop round sometime with your Majik DS, rip some of my fav CDs onto it, and compare playback through my system using the DS as the source, vs. my Sony CDP, with both units connected to my DAS-R1 DAC, to get a handle on where I'm coming from... ;)

Sounds like a project for sometime in the spring, perhaps? I'm sure that the train journey from Worcester to Wrexham wouldn't be too problematic :cool:

Marco.

WAD62

13-01-2011, 11:06

Hi Will,

Only if that sort of malarkey floats yer boat. If it does, that's fine. Gadgetry or 'impressive' shows of technology, however, have never really impressed me.

Personally, the above excites me about as much as sitting with a toothpick, picking corn on the cob out from my solidified stools ;)

Marco (who's off to lift a CD from his rack, pop it into his CDP, and listen to music the non-lazy, old-fashioned way!) :ner:

Hi Marco,

Sometimes it's nice to hear tracks out of the context of the album, picking up on things that you'd ignored or skipped past previously. A bit of dub, then some electro, then some rock...you can see the pattern forming...Radio Will without some annoying DJ :)

Also I tend to buy CD's in a batch, and putting all my new stuff into a random playlist can be a very nice way of familiarising myself with the new music.

All I can say is that I listen to more of my collection, more often, and in more locations than previously...and that's not what I'd call gadgetry, I'd say that's what having a hi-fi system is all about...listening to music! not quietly stroking album covers in a darkened corner... ;)

The Vinyl Adventure

13-01-2011, 11:10

Hi Hamish,

I'm not disputing any of that. But I can only judge on what I've heard so far. I also only audition equipment in my system *if* it has shown sufficient potential to warrant a home demo. Unfortunately with music streamers that hasn't happened yet, and I'm not about to waste a dealer's time borrowing equipment if I feel there's little chance of me buying it.

I think you need to pop round sometime with your Majik DS, rip some of my fav CDs onto it, and compare playback through my system using the DS as the source, vs. my Sony CDP, with both units connected to my DAS-R1 DAC, to get a handle on where I'm coming from... ;)

Sounds like a project for sometime in the spring, perhaps? I'm sure that the train journey from Worcester to Wrexham wouldn't be too problematic :cool:

Marco.

sounds like a good idea buddy ...
it is of course the problem with linn set ups ... they are a pain in the ass to transport ... in my case id need to bring the majik ds, router, and mini pc to be sure i could get it working your end ....

now theres an argument for cd!!!

Marco

13-01-2011, 11:12

Hi Will,

Sometimes it's nice to hear tracks out of the context of the album, picking up on things that you'd ignored or skipped past previously. A bit of dub, then some electro, then some rock...you can see the pattern forming...

Also I tend to buy CD's in a batch, and putting all my new stuff into a random playlist can be a very nice way of familiarising myself with the new music.

All I can say is that I listen to more of my collection, more often, and in more locations than previously...and that's not what I'd call gadgetry, I'd say that's what having a hi-fi system is all about...listening to music! not quietly stroking album covers in a darkened corner...

Lol! That's cool - if it gets you into listening to music more, or introduces you to music you may not have considered before, then your set-up is doing something positive.

I just don't need that kind of technological stimulation to enrich my enjoyment of music. I'm quite happy to access my music collection the old-fashioned way, by playing records and CDs (of a multitude of genres) - and I do, for on average 5-7 hours a day... That's one of the advantages of working from home! ;)

Marco.

WAD62

13-01-2011, 11:15

Hi Will,

Lol! That's cool - if it gets you into listening to music more, or introduces you to music you may not have considered before, then your set-up is doing something positive.

I just don't need that kind of technological stimulation to enrich my enjoyment of music. I'm quite happy to access my music collection the old-fashioned way by playing records and CDs - and I do, for on average 5-7 hours a day... That's one of the advantages of working from home! ;)

Marco.

I do still have my vinyl days too Marco (usually drunken nights actually)...just to keep my hand in as it were :)

It's just tidying the feckers up in the morning that's the problem :doh:

DSJR

13-01-2011, 11:20

One thing Marco, is that I understand the error correction in the computer to be far better than the cruder arrangement in the CD player. I do understand that CD reading mechanisms like ours have a head start on the resonant plasticy things used today, that apparently were designed for high revs computer drives and adapted for use in CD players.

I have tracks on various hard drives, all backed up onto DVD's either as they are, or as FLACs, but I still haven't got round to streaming them into the main stereo system. I'm quite happy to dig a CD or LP out and physically play them at the present time, as I also enjoy the tactile pleasure of holding the software (:eyebrows:) and fiddling with the equipment, something that many others just don't understand, or feel they've moved away from.

Marco

13-01-2011, 11:24

sounds like a good idea buddy ...
it is of course the problem with linn set ups ... they are a pain in the ass to transport ... in my case id need to bring the majik ds, router, and mini pc to be sure i could get it working your end ....

now theres an argument for cd!!!

Lol - indeed. I remember the ball-ache you had at your place trying to play some files when Hannah had your laptop, or something, and the one you had wouldn't connect to the DS, or summat.....

It's when things go wrong with modern gizmos that you value the manual approach - the same also applies with cars and other things in life, which is why I like to keep things 'simple, stupid', as they say!

I like to be the one in control, not a bloody computer ;)

Would we need the router and all the other bollox if all we were doing were playing files from the hard-drive on the DS, and simply using it as a digital source?

I'd have thought all we would've needed was the DS and whatever is used to control it (laptop, mobile phone, or whatever)? :scratch:

Marco.

Welder

13-01-2011, 11:30

The Vinyl Adventure

13-01-2011, 11:32

Lol - indeed. I remember the ball-ache you had at your place trying to play some files when Hannah had your laptop or something and the one you had wouldn't connect to the DS or summat.....

It's when things go wrong with modern gizmos that you value the manual approach - the same also applies with cars and other things in life, which is why I like to keep things 'simple, stupid', as they say!

I like to be the one in control, not a bloody computer ;)

Would we need the router and all the other bollox if all we were doing were playing files from the hard-drive on the DS, and simply using it as a digital source?

I'd have thought all we would've needed was the DS and whatever is used to control it (laptop, mobile phone, or whatever) :scratch:

Marco.

yeah i have fixed those drop out issues now ... they were a right old ball ache but it turned out to just be because i was using a crap media server

the music has to be stored on a hdd, that in turn needs to be conected to a pc (you can use a nas but i dont have one) that pc has to be connected to a router and the ds has to be connected to the router too.
there needs to be a media server on the pc (in my case asset upnp) that sends the info to the majik ... you then just need a controller (in my case chorus ds on the iphone) that talks to the media server and the majik ds ... simple! (i think thats how it works ... thats how it appears to work to me anyway)

well actually its a fucking pain in the ass to start with... but once you get used to it its actually really simple ... just dont think about trying to move the system else where

WAD62

13-01-2011, 11:34

Lol - indeed. I remember the ball-ache you had at your place trying to play some files when Hannah had your laptop, or something, and the one you had wouldn't connect to the DS, or summat.....

It's when things go wrong with modern gizmos that you value the manual approach - the same also applies with cars and other things in life, which is why I like to keep things 'simple, stupid', as they say!

I like to be the one in control, not a bloody computer ;)

Would we need the router and all the other bollox if all we were doing were playing files from the hard-drive on the DS, and simply using it as a digital source?

I'd have thought all we would've needed was the DS and whatever is used to control it (laptop, mobile phone, or whatever)? :scratch:

Marco.

If the Linn DS works like the SqueezeBox system you'll need a network to connect it to, hence the router requirement. Don't you have your own at home?

Otherwise you're left with playing from a computer, and we're into the black hole that is the USB connection again...;)

P.S. You need to teach the computer who's boss...give it a lengthy de-frag that should sort it out!!! :eyebrows:

Marco

13-01-2011, 11:37

the music has to be stored on a hdd, that in turn needs to be conected to a pc (you can use a nas but i dont have one) that pc has to be connected to a router and the ds has to be connected to the router too.
there needs to be a media server on the pc (in my case asset upnp) that sends the info to the majik ... you then just need a controller (in my case chorus ds on the iphone) that talks to the media server and the majik ds ... simple! (i think thats how it works ... thats how it appears to work to me anyway)

Lol - aye, "simple" indeed! :mental: :eyebrows:

Anyway, that's a plan for the spring. I can let you hear what proper-sized speakers sound like, too...... ;)

By that time we may be in Wynn Hall, so you could stay overnight in your own suite :cool:

Marco.

Marco

13-01-2011, 11:42

Awww, come on Marco what sort of argument is that? :lol:
If anything there are more options to control the sound you get from a computer than that with a CD player; it’s just a matter of adapting a little bit you ole dinosaur.

Lol - I'll willingly 'adapt' to anything, *if* I consider that whatever it is significantly betters whatever it replaced, and if I feel that it's liable to enrich my life in some way, rather than complicate it, otherwise you can keep it! ;)

That's my policy, baby! :cool:

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure

13-01-2011, 11:45

Lol - aye, "simple" indeed! :mental: :eyebrows:

Anyway, that's a plan for the spring. I can let you hear what proper-sized speakers sound like, too...... ;)

By that time, we may be in Wynn Hall, so you could stay overnight in your own suite :cool:

Marco.

haha cool!

i know what "proper sized" speakers sound like ya numpty ... i bought mine based on the fact they were a hannah friendly version of these lot

http://media.audiojunkies.com/adam-audio-tensor.jpg

im aware of the differences in the range of the tensors .. the big ones with thier 2 13 inch drivers and 2 9" drivers on each side do offer a more realistic bass, but in my room, with my missis and my budget ... im pretty certain i have got as good a pair of speakers as i can ... and no tatty old tanoys are gonna change my mind on that one ;) :lolsign:

WAD62

13-01-2011, 11:48

well actually its a fucking pain in the ass to start with... but once you get used to it its actually really simple ... just dont think about trying to move the system else where

Good points well made Hamish :)

Marco

13-01-2011, 11:50

Hi Dave,

One thing Marco, is that I understand the error correction in the computer to be far better than the cruder arrangement in the CD player. I do understand that CD reading mechanisms like ours have a head start on the resonant plasticy things used today, that apparently were designed for high revs computer drives and adapted for use in CD players.

Indeed, although much would depend on whether the supposedly superior error correction in computers (again this would vary from computer to computer and from CD player to CD player, as all CDPs and computers are not equal), outweighs the benefits of the quieter 'operating environment' of a well-engineered hi-end CDP, devoid of the noise introduced by cheapo switch-mode PSUs :)

Marco.

Marco

13-01-2011, 11:55

haha cool!

i know what "proper sized" speakers sound like ya numpty ... i bought mine based on the fact they were a hannah friendly version of these lot

im aware of the differences in the range of the tensors .. the big ones with thier 2 13 inch drivers and 2 9" drivers on each side do offer a more realistic bass, but in my room, with my missis and my budget ... im pretty certain i have got as good a pair of speakers as i can ... and no tatty old tanoys are gonna change my mind on that one ;) :lolsign:

Ha - nice one... Don't forget to bring something to help rearrange yer ribcage from the effects of sheer bass impact, when I play Rammstein or Tool at SPLs approaching 120db!! :fingers: :gig:

Marco.

WAD62

13-01-2011, 11:55

Hi Dave,

Indeed, although much would depend on whether the supposedly superior error correction in computers (again this would vary from computer to computer and from CD player to CD player, as all CDPs and computers are not equal), outweighs the benefits of the quieter 'operating environment' of a well-engineered hi-end CDP, devoid of the noise introduced by cheapo switch-mode PSUs :)

Marco.

Virtually all of the error correction/enhancement is software based, so not prone to variation, the only issue is whether or not it runs on your computer platform :)

Welder

13-01-2011, 11:56

Need to stop thinking computer and start thinking music server here I think otherwise the largely inapplicable arguments keep getting in the way :doh:
A music server can be totally mechanically silent and have excellent electrical noise rejection properties :)

(I must get on with some work here :doh:)

Marco

13-01-2011, 11:58

well actually its a fucking pain in the ass to start with... but once you get used to it its actually really simple ... just dont think about trying to move the system else where...

Trouble is, I suspect that I wouldn't get past the "fucking pain in the ass" stage before lobbing the lot in the bin!! ;)

Marco.

Marco

13-01-2011, 12:01

Hi John,

Need to stop thinking computer and start thinking music server here I think otherwise the largely inapplicable arguments keep getting in the way :doh:
A music server can be totally mechanically silent and have excellent electrical noise rejection properties :)

Mmmm...perhaps. The problem is most music servers I've heard use switch-mode PSUs, and I don't like them - or rather, I don't like the effect they have on music.

Marco.

WAD62

13-01-2011, 12:03

Marco

13-01-2011, 12:17

Does it use an SMPS? :)

Marco.

WAD62

13-01-2011, 12:21

Does it use an SMPS? :)

Marco.

Yes, but given that it's transmitting data (FLAC files) via the Wi-Fi router, I think that's plenty of 'air' isolation... :)

Unless I've missed your point...:scratch:

Marco

13-01-2011, 12:39

Ali Tait

13-01-2011, 12:42

If the Linn DS works like the SqueezeBox system you'll need a network to connect it to, hence the router requirement. Don't you have your own at home?

Otherwise you're left with playing from a computer, and we're into the black hole that is the USB connection again...;)

P.S. You need to teach the computer who's boss...give it a lengthy de-frag that should sort it out!!! :eyebrows:

The Touch does like to be connected to a network, but it will work in standalone mode, which makes it very portable. Put some music on a USB memory stick, and all you need to take with you is the Touch and the stick. In fact I think there is at least one bloke on Slimforums that uses his in his car.

DSJR

13-01-2011, 12:57

Marco, you may be confusing relative small scale and amateur implentations of SMPS in domestic audio with the ?possibly? far better isolated soundcards out there. It has been said, however, that if the DAC is external and powered separately, things are better.

UV101

13-01-2011, 13:01

with computers, yes they do use a SMPS however........

Due to the very nature of the processors etc, they use very low noise supplies normally right on top the chips. Most motherboard caps are exceptionally low noise (Rubycon MBZ Oscon SEPC) and if you look as the main processor there will be serveral regulators right next to it.

I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist, all I'm saying is that a PC for music may well be better than you think. I would certainly say that out of the box, a PC with a semi decent but cheap sound card would sound better a linear driven SB even though the PC has a horrid SMPS!!!

I've been very CD focused for years and have spent the past 3 years "tweeking" my player/DAC, I've also been recently enjoying a TT again, but I too have a Spotify account, a Squeezebox (albeit modified) and a PC running XBMC. There is no getting away from the convenience of digital music. When the demand is there, I do believe there will be "affordable" high quality file based systems............after all, a CD is a digital file stored on a disk!!!!:scratch:

Marco

13-01-2011, 13:05

Dave,

I'm comparing what I've heard when the noise is filtered out of any computer-based device (music server or whatever), no matter the 'quality' of the SMPS used...

Trust me, it's very noticeable on a revealing system! :)

The only SMPS-equipped kit I've heard sound any good is Martin T's Chord amps, which are superb. But then they cost enough to allow SMPS technology to be properly implemented.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that's the case in entry to mid-level music streamers or PCs.

Marco.

WAD62

13-01-2011, 13:08

Hi Will,

The point is, in my experience, any equipment that uses a cheap switch-mode PSU will inject electrical noise/'hash' into the replay system when connected to it (and/or the same mains supply).

Therefore, the more SMPS units in the replay chain, the more noise there is lying below the music signal, muddying it, which one can clearly hear on a good system.

If you doubt this, try plugging a music streamer into an effective mains filter (one that doesn't curtail dynamics, such as those Anthony TD designs) and I guarantee the 'before & after' results will shock you! ;)

That is one reason why I'm reluctant to put any computer-type device near my hi-fi system, as noise is the worst enemy of realistic music reproduction....

Marco.

It's performing an asynchronous FLAC FTP (file transfer process) via wi-fi, and is at least 40' away from my main system (oh and it's sat upstairs on a big lump of slate...probably welsh!).

How on earth any 'interference' can hitch along with this architecture is beyond me. It's not physically connected, only logically! :eyebrows:

The recipient at the other end of the wi-fi transmission, is plugged into a mains filter, albeit a cheap tascam one, but we all have our priorities and budgets. ;)

The Vinyl Adventure

13-01-2011, 13:11

The smps in my mini pc causes havok

The smps in the original majik ds was similar in it's destruction to enjoyment

The new dynamik psu doesn't have nearly as much effect

The smps in the pc problem is solved with a Belkin filter that cost me £40

The majik doesnt seem to sound much different with the filter in place ... Although in honesty I haven't spent much time comparing

Marco

13-01-2011, 13:16

It's performing an asynchronous FLAC FTP (file transfer process) via wi-fi, and is at least 40' away from my main system (oh and it's sat upstairs on a big lump of slate...probably welsh!).

How on earth any 'interference' can hitch along with this architecture is beyond me. It's not physically connected, only logically! :eyebrows:

Is it connected to the same mains supply as the rest of your system?

If so, it will chuck noise into said supply, which in turn will 'infect' the rest of the components in your system plugged into the same supply, by raising the noisefloor of the whole system - simples! :)

I could easily demonstrate the effect to you, if your system is transparent enough. Perhaps we should do that sometime? :cool:

You want to minimise the amount of noise injected into your mains supply - it's already noisy enough as it is these days, with the shit kicked out by bloody mobile phones, and such like... :rolleyes:

Marco.

WAD62

13-01-2011, 13:26

Is it connected to the same mains supply as the rest of your system?

If so, it will chuck noise into said supply, which in turn will 'infect' the rest of the components in your system plugged into the same supply - simples! :)

I could easily demonstrate the effect to you, if your system is transparent enough. Perhaps we should do that sometime? :cool:

You want to minimise the amount of noise you inject into your mains supply - it's already noisy enough as it is these days, with the shit kicked out by bloody mobile phones, and such like... :rolleyes:

Marco.

Agreed, but with the proliferation of SMPS power supplies it would be a bit of a King Canute effort keeping them out of the house. So many devices come with them these days, laptops, phone chargers...T-Class amps :eyebrows:

My cop out is to run mains conditioners on all 4 of my systems, I certainly noticed the improvement on my main system :)

You're more than welcome to pop round if you're round these neck of the woods, whether my system is transparent enough is a different matter... :cool:

Marco

13-01-2011, 13:34

Cheers for that, Will. We should do it sometime.

Agreed, but with the proliferation of SMPS power supplies it would be a bit of a King Canute effort keeping them out of the house. So many devices come with them these days, laptops, phone chargers...T-Class amps

Lol - you see, I don't have ANY of that stuff plugged into the same supply as my hi-fi system. Heaven forbid!

It all goes into the house ring-main, and all my hi-fi gear runs off of a dedicated spur, which itself is filtered at the point of any (noisy) digital equipment being introduced into the chain, such as my CDP and DAC.

This is one reason why I prefer using mainly analogue equipment, as you don't have any of that bollox to worry about! ;)

Marco.

WAD62

13-01-2011, 14:00

Cheers for that, Will. We should do it sometime.

Lol - you see, I don't have ANY of that stuff plugged into the same supply as my hi-fi system. Heaven forbid!

It all goes into the house ring-main, and all my hi-fi gear runs off of a dedicated spur,
Marco.

How the other half live!!! ;)

Marco

13-01-2011, 14:02

Hi Ian,

with computers, yes they do use a SMPS however........

Due to the very nature of the processors etc, they use very low noise supplies normally right on top the chips. Most motherboard caps are exceptionally low noise (Rubycon MBZ Oscon SEPC) and if you look as the main processor there will be serveral regulators right next to it.

I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist, all I'm saying is that a PC for music may well be better than you think. I would certainly say that out of the box, a PC with a semi decent but cheap sound card would sound better a linear driven SB even though the PC has a horrid SMPS!!!

I'm in no position to dispute that, as I haven't tried it. You're probably right, though.

My position on this, however, has already been stated. Use a properly engineered CDP instead, with lovely (much quieter) over-specified, fully regulated PSUs. That's what I'll be doing until I've heard a top-notch music server that doesn't use SMPS, which satisfies my ears, sonically :)

There is no getting away from the convenience of digital music. When the demand is there, I do believe there will be "affordable" high quality file based systems............after all, a CD is a digital file stored on a disk!!!!:scratch:

Indeed. I'm afraid, though, that convenience isn't in the slightest a selling point for me, especially if it's at the expense of audio performance.

I'm fortunate, being semi-retired (at 45), that my life is fairly relaxed, and so I've got plenty of time to do what I want, when I want. In fact, I'd be more inclined to make things less convenient for myself, if it meant improved sound quality........

So call me an audio masochist, as well as a dinosaur!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

WAD62

13-01-2011, 14:11

Hi Ian,

So call me an audio masochist, as well as a dinosaur!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

I have the perfect solution for you...inspired by the greenpeace tent at Glasto

Connect your dedicated Hi-Fi electrical spur to an exercise bike...should keep you fit too!!! :lol:

Marco

13-01-2011, 14:12

Lol - great idea! :lol:

Marco.

Welder

13-01-2011, 14:31

I have to agree with Marco here, switch mode power supplies anywhere in the audio chain are at best undesirable and at worst distortion inducing noise machines.
Have to agree with Marco again on the dedicated mains supply issue as well. At my old house I had a dedicated mains supply with a non grid ground and the difference was noticeable even with my modest kit. Here I have an isolated ring for my Hi Fi which is half way there and also noticeably better than plugging into a shared ring.
(I hope to have one here next month if I can get the wiring done and find a suitable spot for the earth rod that doesn’t involve next doors garden)

However, like loudspeakers, amps, decks, if you are prepared to build yourself such limitations just don’t apply. I fail to see how anyone can expect to purchase ready boxed audio and expect to get glorious music at anything like a reasonable price. No mods, no music.
It isn’t particularly hard to build a music server with a Linear power supply (I hope coz I’m going to be doing it this year) and given we’re talking £5000 CD players here I rather expect a purpose built music server to cost considerable less even if you have to buy every bloody component and outperform any off the shelf CD player.

It’s a bit like Marco’s Techie I imagine; as a standard deck I don’t imagine its that great but for a relatively minimal investment you can make most decks trash any but the fabulously expensive kit.

Marco

13-01-2011, 14:55

I have to agree with Marco here, switch mode power supplies anywhere in the audio chain are at best undesirable and at worst distortion inducing noise machines.

Hear, hear, dude - spot on (the whole post, not just that bit)! :clap:

Marco.

Marco

13-01-2011, 15:10

How the other half live!!! ;)

Fitting a separate spur is not particularly expensive to do, but absolutely fundamental if you have any serious notion of hearing what your system is really capable of :)

Marco.

Welder

13-01-2011, 15:40

WAD62

13-01-2011, 16:09

If you don’t want to draw lots of amps Will, fire alarm cable is shielded and rated at 20 amps. Then you need a metre of say one inch diameter 1.metre long copper rod with a hole drilled in one end to accept the earth wire driven, not dug into soil that stays damp.
You can fit all the wiring yourself and just get an electrician round to certify and connect to grid. Cost me £60 last time I did it.
There’s loads of info on the net about how to go about it.

It’s a cheap and basic tweak that most Hi Fi buffs have been doing for years. You may not even need all those Tascam blocks littering the house up after although I found a filter between socket and kit to catch any spikes helped.

Cheers for the info chaps...I've got a few minor problems however

Because I've err..'embraced' the network streaming ethos I've now got Hi-Fi's in 4 rooms in the house, living room, kitchen, bedroom, and study, this would be a much more complex job. Presumably the ideal scenario would be to have an isolated spur with at least one 'clean' outlet in each room for hi-fi connection.

This might be a job best left for a full house rewire, if and when that occurs, there's more pressing decorating to be done first...the missus would stab me if I were to embark upon that first, or I'd need to think up a convincing lie!

One point however, presumably you don't use any switching PSUs on your 'clean' supply, otherwise you'd be defeating the object wouldn't you...I'd have to spend hundreds to replace all of the PSU's on my Squeezeboxes and T-Amps.

Looks like I'll have to stick with the Tacimas for the forseeable...:scratch:

UV101

13-01-2011, 16:22

For me, the main enviroment is as clean as possible. Having spent a significant amount of time and money on the supply and regulation within pretty much all of my gear, I can absolutely say that any SMPS has no part in my main system.

Its definately not an option to dedicate that amount of resource to the ability to listen to music in other rooms. I do however take advantage of the convenience of spotify to my iPhone via a Tannoy dock in the bedroom, the kids have access to the music network shares on their laptops, XBMC runs on a pc in the spare room and for the convenience factor I have the squeezebox.

So far as I am concerned, the main system is a pure as I can afford to make it and there is no substitute for walking to the shelf and scanning through a picking a CD (or Album now!!! YAY) but I do beleive there is a place for network media.

One other thing, the excersise bike......I can see loads of regulation issues..........:lolsign:

WAD62

13-01-2011, 16:43

One other thing, the excersise bike......I can see loads of regulation issues..........:lolsign:

I think it was Glastonbury 97 or 98, when I first encountered the bike powered greenpeace stage, 'the rainbow dragon' or something to that effect, up in the greenfields anyway. There're lots of them about at various festivals these days, a particularly nice cinema one usually appears at the big chill.

We'd wandered up there to see 'Loop Guru', and were commandeered as soon as we got into the tent, they had 6 bikes to the left of the stage wired up to a generator, then onto the PA.

The odd thing was that they kept on force feeding us spliffs, whilst we were pedalling (well it would have been rude not to)...not the usual performance enhancing drug of choice for an ambitious cyclist, good job it was a short set!!! ;)

pwood

13-01-2011, 22:45

Hi Marco,

Sometimes it's nice to hear tracks out of the context of the album, picking up on things that you'd ignored or skipped past previously. A bit of dub, then some electro, then some rock...you can see the pattern forming...Radio Will without some annoying DJ :)

Also I tend to buy CD's in a batch, and putting all my new stuff into a random playlist can be a very nice way of familiarising myself with the new music.

All I can say is that I listen to more of my collection, more often, and in more locations than previously...and that's not what I'd call gadgetry, I'd say that's what having a hi-fi system is all about...listening to music! not quietly stroking album covers in a darkened corner... ;)

It's amazing what I forgot I had or more to the point couldn't be arsed looking out to shove in the cd player that is but a swipe of my iPad away. I am listening to my music more than ever which for me is the whole point:cool:

UV101

14-01-2011, 10:30

I should also point out that using streaming music has allowed me to sample a much wider range of music. I like acoustic recordings and having discovered some acoustic recordings by Sister Hazel and Anouk on spotify, I will be making a purchase of the old fashioned CD variety or even an LP if a can find one!!!

kt66

18-01-2011, 17:03

CD players are as good as the mastering they are playing,

dcc, audio fildelity, MFSL, the Beatles and Stones remasters all sound incredibly good on my Linn Ikemi.

I need another format like a hole in the head, and my PC is in one room and my HIFI in the other, never shall they meet!

So I will buy another CD player,
Streaming is too complex and too much of a pain in the arse for most.

I'm pissed at Linn for not supporting CD anymore, won't even service my Ikemi, so stuff them.
But I'd love a CD player by Nagra, Shanling, Prima Luna, Wadia etc and will buy one next.

Marco

18-01-2011, 18:47

TBH, Tim, you'd be far better off sonically, and would save a fortune, by going for a top-notch vintage player, like the superb 'battleship-built' Sonys of the late 80s/early 90s, and have it modified by the likes of Mark from Audiocom.

I've heard the players you mention, and none, in my extensive experience, can sonically hold a candle to a well-sorted vintage player, updated with new caps, etc. The Wadia is the only one I'd entertain out of those you mention, but even that is, IMO, afflicted with a rather 'overblown' sound, synonymous with some American hi-end gear.

Have a look on Ebay for any of the top-notch Sony ES players from the era I mentioned. Expect to pay no more than £350 for a good one, and around £500-700 for the necessary mods. Trust me you'll then have a CDP that'll piss all over most of the 'badge-fi' players you mentioned, and you can spend the change on music! ;)

Marco.

UV101

18-01-2011, 18:57

Totally agree!!!

Don't forget the Marantz and Philips of the era too!!!

Pretty much anything pre "bitstream" will do it but my fav is the Marantz CD94 and as Marco says, it will need "sorting" :)

Techno Commander

18-01-2011, 19:39

I would also add the Pioneer reference series CD players to the list.

Marco

18-01-2011, 21:06

Yep, chaps, those are also top-notch :)

My mate bought this 1986 Sony X-555 recently, boxed as new, for £350:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9629/dscn0247u.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/dscn0247u.jpg/)

It sounds stunningly good, and it hasn't even been modded yet! :eek:

Of course it uses TDA 1541s ;)

I believe it cost £1200 in '86 - a bloody fortune back then! How much would that be in today's money, I wonder?

Marco.

UV101

18-01-2011, 21:20

It sounds stunningly good, and it hasn't even been modded yet! :eek:

Of course it uses TDA 1541s ;)

Marco.

Of course.......There IS only 1 dac!!!!

3 regs on the TDA, 1 on the filter (especially if it uses 7220) and a couple on the output stage a clock and were talking high end killer!

Long live the TDA :cool:

Reid Malenfant

18-01-2011, 21:21

I know single box players are good because i've had quite a few, but you can't beat a dedicated transport imo :eyebrows:

As for TDA1541 DAC chips they are quite good admittedly, but they drift quite a bit due to the ladder resistors. Yes they do sound pretty good, better than bitstream, but if you want the best go for a player (if you can't afford more than one box) with the dCS ring DAC. It gets round the drift problem of the ladder resistors as well as it being native 24bit...

UV101

18-01-2011, 21:34

if it was worth doing all this for (which it was) it cant be bad;)

Marco

18-01-2011, 21:47

Lol - you're a mad boy, Ian! :respect:

Mark, I'm with you on the dedicated transport thing and separate DAC (that's what I do), but for £350 that Sony is a killer! It weighs 18kg, has PSUs on it big enough to use on a large integrated amp, and a mech that's as slick as a very slick thing!

They just don't make 'em like that anymore... I love the TDA1541s because they're so weighty and 'analogue' sounding, but in the right way!

However, soz, I'm not a fan of up-sampling (I find it rather unnatural sounding), so the DCS players have never really done it for me.... But if you like the 'smoothing effect' of up-sampling, then nothing else will do, and DCS are the masters! :)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

18-01-2011, 21:52

Mark, I'm with you on the dedicated transport thing and separate DAC (that's what I do), but for £350 that Sony is a killer! It weighs 18kg, has PSUs on it big enough to use on a large integrated amp, and a mech that's as slick as a very slick thing!

They just don't make 'em like that anymore... I love the TDA1541s because they're so weighty and 'analogue' sounding, but in the right way!

However, soz, I'm not a fan of up-sampling (I find it rather unnatural sounding), so the DCS players have never really done it for me.... But if you like the 'smoothing effect' of up-sampling, then nothing else will do, and DCS are the masters! :)
Yep, £350 is cool beans for a quality player :)

I don't recall mentioning upsampling? :scratch: All i said was the dCS ring DAC gets round the problems of the ladder resistors in the TDA1541 chips. For your information the ring DAC is 5 bit 64 times oversampling so you get the accuracy of bitstream but the analogue sound of a multibit DAC ;)

Marco

18-01-2011, 22:04

UV101

18-01-2011, 22:09

Are we talking upsampling or oversamplinr here?

I must admit, I prefer the oversampling of the 7220 with a TDA1541 however, you must treat the oversampling filter very carefully otherwise it destroys the awesome sound of the 1541.

My understanding is that oversampling samples the same signal multiple times, takes an average figure (attempting to compensate for read errors) and uses that and that upsampling actually converts the sample rate and attempt to add missing values based on what was before and after.

Upsampling could be compared to watching a std def tv channel on a full HD tv. The information required for the higher number of dots are made up of calculations based on the surrounding "known" dots. Does that make sense????

Anyway in reality, you are guessing at the missing info in order to achieve higher resolution

Reid Malenfant

18-01-2011, 22:16

No worries, dude - it's just I've never heard (so far) a DCS player or DAC that I like, regardless of what you mention above, but that's just me.

I'm a big TDA1541 fan - it's a personal thing... You obviously like what DCS gear does, and that's cool :)

Marco.
No worries Marco :) I don't like flexible speaker enclosures but as you say, if that's your personal thing & you are getting groovy to the choons then who am i to complain ;) Me, i'd have them in sand filled between two layers of Birch ply or MDF & braced to hell, but that's me...

Different strokes for different folks :cool: Makes the world a more interesting place :)

ATB :wave:

Welder

18-01-2011, 22:26

I think you may find there is no strict definition for up-sampling. It seems to mean different things to different manufacturers.
Should just stick to decimation and interpolation.

Marco

19-01-2011, 05:48

Hi Mark,

No worries Marco I don't like flexible speaker enclosures but as you say, if that's your personal thing & you are getting groovy to the choons then who am i to complain. Me, i'd have them in sand filled between two layers of Birch ply or MDF & braced to hell, but that's me...

Different strokes for different folks Makes the world a more interesting place...

Lol - indeed!

However, I can assure you that there is nothing "flexible" about the enclosures on my Lockwoods. They may not be as heavy as you'd expect, given their size, *but* they are most certainly very inert - a rap of your knuckes on the sides of the cabinets confirms this.

I don't want to touch the cabinets, as they're a tried and tested design over many years, built by a specialist company known for optimising the performance of vintage Tannoy drive units, such as 15" Monitor Golds, and they sound utterly stunning, so why attempt to 'fix' what ain't broken? :)

I like the fact that although they are extremely well braced and inert, they're also light enough not to store energy as much as the type of enclosures you favour - like you say, different strokes for different folks :cool:

You must pop up sometime, so I can demonstrate their effectiveness when pumping out some dance tunes or chilled-out atmospheric ambient vibes...

I think you'd be quite shocked at what you heard! :rave:

;)

Marco.

P.S Does anyone know how much £1200 in 1986 equates to now? I'm just curious....

The Grand Wazoo

19-01-2011, 07:46

It depends very much on which indicator you use Marco:

£2,620.00 using the retail price index

£2,590.00 using the GDP deflator

£3,570.00 using the average earnings

£3,950.00 using the per capita GDP

£4,300.00 using the share of GDP

Most folks in your case would look at RPI, I'd have thought.

Audiocom AV

19-01-2011, 13:35

Is there still a market for the Silver disc??

Teac Esoteric think so. Weighing in @ 31KG the new K-01 costs $24,000.

Quotes;

“The K-01 is equipped with our new VRDS-NEO "VMK-3.5-20S" mechanism, which has advanced substantially beyond existing VRDS models.”

“The K series is committed to advancing the "state of the art" for the 2 channel audio purist, for both high resolution audio files and disc based audio playback applications.”

Full details here;
http://esoteric.teac.com/audio_players/k-01/

Reid Malenfant

19-01-2011, 22:10

Hi Mark,

Lol - indeed!

However, I can assure you that there is nothing "flexible" about the enclosures on my Lockwoods. They may not be as heavy as you'd expect, given their size, *but* they are most certainly very inert - a rap of your knuckes on the sides of the cabinets confirms this.

I don't want to touch the cabinets, as they're a tried and tested design over many years, built by a specialist company known for optimising the performance of vintage Tannoy drive units, such as 15" Monitor Golds, and they sound utterly stunning, so why attempt to 'fix' what ain't broken? :)

I like the fact that although they are extremely well braced and inert, they're also light enough not to store energy as much as the type of enclosures you favour - like you say, different strokes for different folks :cool:

You must pop up sometime, so I can demonstrate their effectiveness when pumping out some dance tunes or chilled-out atmospheric ambient vibes...

I think you'd be quite shocked at what you heard! :rave:

;)

Marco.

P.S Does anyone know how much £1200 in 1986 equates to now? I'm just curious....
Hey Marco, sorry fella i was on the back end of a few beers there :doh:

Actually though i understand where you are coming from, a light weight braced enclosure can be incredibly stiff (i know as i have made a few ;)). What bothers me though is that the drivers in your case have a cone responding up to 1KHz (& beyond as it only has a 12Db octave filter) & it is very difficult to raise the panel vibration point to above this so it'd have no effect!

I know you want to keep them original so you can call them Lockwoods ;) But in all honesty if i wanted to improve the things i'd have a braced inner enclosure surrounded by another with the gap filled with dried sand. That way no midrange stuff would get to the outside world except through the driver diaphram ;)

In the mean time just enjoy as i'm doing :D

:cool: ATB chap :)

Marco

19-01-2011, 22:30

Yep, dude, I get where you're coming from, but as they sound so amazing 'as is', I'd just rather not touch them :)

I also know that the Lockwood Major cabinets (the ones I have) were very well thought out designs for use with 15" Tannoy Monitor Reds and Golds.

This is the company who made them. They have a lot of heritage within the professional broadcasting industry (BBC, etc):

http://www.lockwoodaudio.co.uk/

You can just see a Lockwood Major poking out the R/H side of the picture, probably taken from sometime during the 60s....

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3306/lockwood1lrg.jpg (http://img402.imageshack.us/i/lockwood1lrg.jpg/)

And mine in situ (either side of my 'naughty dungeon-ette' :eyebrows:)

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/3710/lockwoodmajors026.jpg (http://img838.imageshack.us/i/lockwoodmajors026.jpg/)

And at the show we done last year in Scalford Hall:

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9141/dsc0008hf.jpg (http://img266.imageshack.us/i/dsc0008hf.jpg/)

Marco.

P.S Sorry for the thread drift, folks!

Marco

21-01-2011, 07:48

Hey, Mark - have you gone all shy now? :lol: :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

21-01-2011, 10:49

Hey, Mark - have you gone all shy now? :lol: :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.
Not at all Marco ;) I just didn't want to keep adding to the thread drift, but if you insist :doh:

I'll comment later...

Marco

21-01-2011, 19:51

Lol... The thread seems dead, anyway :eyebrows:

No need to add anything further, if you don't feel that it's necessary :)

Marco.

UV101

21-01-2011, 20:02

Lol... The thread seems dead, anyway :eyebrows:

No need to add anything further, if you don't feel that it's necessary :)

Marco.

You killed it Marco!!!!:lol::lol::lol:

Reid Malenfant

21-01-2011, 20:02

Ok, my final say on the matter :eyebrows:

If you were or had new enclosures built you wouldn't need to alter the Lockwoods, it'd just be a case of removing the drivers & crossovers & wrapping up the cabs to preserve them with all the love & affection you could muster :lol:

Back to CD players, my £17 cheap as chips Philips with CDM4/19 drive arrived & works a treat, the laser should be exactly the same as the laser used in the CDM4/36 which is in the DT10 transport, visually it certainly looks identical. The only difference in the complete transports are that the mech in the Krell is cast alloy & the CDM4/19 is plastic - but the same shape!

Looks like there will be early bits going for nothing, i'm not sure what DAC is used in the AK601 (4 x oversampling apparently) but it's of zero use to me, i just bought it for the mechanism & laser & happily that is 100% fine. Just like my one in use actually :scratch: Be prepared is my motto, but i was never a scout :ner: