Speaker spikes

[magiccarpetride]

I'm getting somewhat confused about the purpose/role of placing spikes or cones underneath the speakers/speaker stands. Are these spikes supposed to dampen the vibrations generated by the speakers, or act as conduits for the vibrations and couple them to the floor?

My reasoning goes like this: ideally, only speaker membranes should vibrate, thus producing the desired sound. However, as the membranes vibrate, the kinetic energy gets transmitted to the surrounding encasement (the speaker cabinet wood etc.). These secondary vibrations then interfere with the primary vibrations of the speaker membranes, thus muddying the sound.

With me so far? OK, now the question is: how to tame these undesirable secondary vibrations? One line of thinking goes that we should dampen them. The other line of thinking may suggest that we should let the unwanted vibrations flow into the floorboards, where they will eventually dissipate throughout the house.

So which one is it? And what approach to spiking the speakers should we use? The one with the dampening rubber pads, or the one with conducive brass spikes?

[The Grand Wazoo]

The one that sounds best to you.

[magiccarpetride]

The one that sounds best to you.

Yeah, but what if everything sounds best to me?

[Rare Bird]

Alex:
Apparently you have the best possible system but your asking about spikes!

[Ali Tait]

Use speakers that don't have cabinets.

[YNWaN]

The other line of thinking may suggest that we should let the unwanted vibrations flow into the floorboards, where they will eventually dissipate throughout the house.

So which one is it?

the one with conducive brass spikes?

As above - but I would use SS or steel spikes.

However, if you can't hear the difference it really doesn't matter (although my own experience is that the benefits are pretty darn obvious).

[The Grand Wazoo]

Yeah, but what if everything sounds best to me?

I think you know the answer to that

[magiccarpetride]

Use speakers that don't have cabinets.

I'm using exactly that (Magnepan planars), but still people are telling me that I should work on minimizing the vibrations.

[magiccarpetride]

Alex:
Apparently you have the best possible system but your asking about spikes!

I've never stated that I have the best possible spikes.

[Ali Tait]

I've tried spikes on statics. Made them sound worse.

[AlanS]

I've never stated that I have the best possible spikes.

If your system is the best then whatever spikes you do or dont use are by your definition the best.
I have some cakes do you want to have them or eat them, can't do both.
As one poster said try and tell us what an amazing difference they made.

[magiccarpetride]

If your system is the best then whatever spikes you do or dont use are by your definition the best.

My system is not the best, it is the best possible system.

[AlanS]

My system is not the best, it is the best possible system.

But is it http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8985 suggests not.

[magiccarpetride]

But is it http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8985 suggests not.

Not sure I follow your logic here.

[DavidF]

Yeah, but what if everything sounds best to me?



If I may butt in here....

If;

a)your system sounds fine as it is....why are you wanting to alter it?

b)you are not hearing differences with isolaion methods applied.... to a degree I would suggest the same answer applies (IME an unusual conclusion tho').

[AlanS]

Not sure I follow your logic here.

I thought you were the laser sharp one here.

Man says "My system is not the best, it is the best possible system."

that says "it is the best possible system."
and if it is "it is the best possible system" then unless you ascribe some non standard meaning to possible there is nothing more you can do to improve it - it is. If you said aiming for the best possible system that would be different, but you aren't you are there now present tense :)

[DSJR]

I never thought Maggies were the most rigid of enclosures, so heavily spiking the stands they come with isn't going to make an enormous difference IMO. Going several steps further as Jimmy Hughes did with his IIIa's made a fundamental change - turning them inside out so the sound wasn't firing through the magnets, removing the grille cloths and supporting them on the side walls. The result was very much different and a bit like watching a soap opera in full IMAX or similar - not necessarily what one would want as the sound was too intensely "detailed" :)

[YNWaN]

As DSJR suggests, if you are using the bent metal L legs, then using any kind of spike is not likely to make much difference. Foundation made some properly rigid stands for Maggies but that was a long time ago. Again, as DSJR has written, try turning them the other way round - this will make a difference.

[Darren]

If I may......
I love Maggies and have owned several pairs. I also own a pair of the foundation Maggie stands which I rarely use.
In the first instance the Foundations make the Maggies much more upright removing the 'rake' which the standard legs give the panels. Secondly, the Foundations clamp the Maggie Oak frames and stop them swaying about so much... this sounds like a good thing, but it's not. and as DSJR says ( anyone would think he worked in the industry for years and years or something......) it tends to give the Maggies a less listenable 'spotlit' quality which I think makes them less musical, less flowing if you will.
My Maggies are on a hard Oak floor and for an extended listening session I sometimes use something mildly sticky ( such as bluetac) under the legs to bond them to the floor. This seems worthwhile, but can be a pain to mess with.
I think that Maggies are great just as they are and im always amused to listen to friends' more conventional speakers and hear the box singing along.......

[Darren]

PS. my partner always refers to the Maggie .6 as 'the musical ironing boards' and used to the describe the MG3s as "horrible, just horrible".... women eh? no taste!

[magiccarpetride]

PS. my partner always refers to the Maggie .6 as 'the musical ironing boards' and used to the describe the MG3s as "horrible, just horrible".... women eh? no taste!

It's also about your taste in women.

[magiccarpetride]

I thought you were the laser sharp one here.

Man says "My system is not the best, it is the best possible system."

that says "it is the best possible system."
and if it is "it is the best possible system" then unless you ascribe some non standard meaning to possible there is nothing more you can do to improve it - it is. If you said aiming for the best possible system that would be different, but you aren't you are there now present tense :)

Ah, now I see where you're coming from, and I can follow your logic. Cheers for being patient with your less bright peers here -- much appreciated:)

You appear to be a metaphysician. You think in absolutistic terms. I'm not that sophisticated, so I think in concrete terms.

[Darren]

It's also about your taste in women.

You know more about spikes than you do about my taste in women:lol:

[magiccarpetride]

You know more about spikes than you do about my taste in women:lol:

True. My spikes are horny, and so am I.

[YNWaN]

...and as DSJR says ( anyone would think he worked in the industry for years and years or something......) it tends to give the Maggies a less listenable 'spotlit' quality which I think makes them less musical, less flowing if you will..

Actually, DSJR is talking about listening to the back of them, not the use of the Foundation stands.

[DSJR]

Some of you lot think I talk out of my backside as well.... :D Ah well, back to the HMV record player...

[magiccarpetride]

I never thought Maggies were the most rigid of enclosures, so heavily spiking the stands they come with isn't going to make an enormous difference IMO. Going several steps further as Jimmy Hughes did with his IIIa's made a fundamental change - turning them inside out so the sound wasn't firing through the magnets, removing the grille cloths and supporting them on the side walls. The result was very much different and a bit like watching a soap opera in full IMAX or similar - not necessarily what one would want as the sound was too intensely "detailed" :)

Finally received a set of 8 Dayton points from parts-express.com. Installed them under my Maggies last night, sat down for a listen and... I was blown away!

Folks, this changes EVERYTHING! The difference in the sound without these spikes and with them on is like the difference between sour, unripened fruit, and a fully ripened fruit. It's nothing short of amazing what these little gadgets do to the sound quality.

I am now able to hear deep, grunting bass lines that I've never ever heard before. Everything cleared up, and the overall sound transformed into a fully relaxed, natural, rich and incredibly lifelike soundstage.

I must say I don't grasp how does this work (and maybe I shouldn't even care, I should just shut up and enjoy the music). But here it goes anyway: do these cones/spikes serve to prevent the vibrations that are coming from the speakers from propagating downwards into the floorboards, or do they serve to dampen and isolate these vibrations?

Whatever it is, like I said, it's working and producing miracles, so I couldn't be happier:)

[Reid Malenfant]

Alex, i think it'd depend on what kind of stand the Maggies are using, any chance of a picture?

If they are anything like i have seen in the past then adding a lot of weight to the bottom of the panels should help as well as i seem to recall saying in an earlier post :scratch:

Just looked & it must have been a different thread :cool:

[magiccarpetride]

I think that Maggies are great just as they are and im always amused to listen to friends' more conventional speakers and hear the box singing along.......

Very true. After getting fully accustomed to the Maggies sound, I always get taken aback when listening even to the very high-end coned and boxed-in speakers. Like you've put it so nicely, it is very obvious and in-your-face that the enclosure, the box, is singing along with the music. And it gets to be very distracting to me, because it tends to add some coloration and candy-coating to the music.

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, i think it'd depend on what kind of stand the Maggies are using, any chance of a picture?

If they are anything like i have seen in the past then adding a lot of weight to the bottom of the panels should help as well as i seem to recall saying in an earlier post :scratch:

Just looked & it must have been a different thread :cool:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7438755/Maggie%20spikes.jpg

[Reid Malenfant]

Cheers Alex :) If i was you i'd consider getting some serious weight onto that stand ;) As it is now the speaker diaphram may not weigh a lot but it covers a big area & as the thing is flapping backwards & forwards it'll get the whole thing rocking in sympathy.

What i suggest you do is find something heavy & place it on the stand, better still something heavy on the front & back. Try it on both speakers & give it a listen, i think you'll be surprised - pleasantly :eyebrows:

[The Grand Wazoo]

As it is now the speaker diaphram may not weigh a lot but it covers a big area & as the thing is flapping backwards & forwards it'll get the whole thing rocking in sympathy.

I've always thought that Magneplanars are crying out for some sort of triangulation structure (EDIT: now I re-read this thread I see it's already been alluded to in an earlier post illustrated with the photo of the Quads).
It shouldn't be too difficult at all to arrange some sort of angled brace betwixt stand and panel

[Reid Malenfant]

It shouldn't be too difficult at all to arrange some sort of angled brace betwixt stand and panel
Agreed, along with a decent load of mass to keep the thing from rocking...

[magiccarpetride]

Cheers Alex :) If i was you i'd consider getting some serious weight onto that stand ;) As it is now the speaker diaphram may not weigh a lot but it covers a big area & as the thing is flapping backwards & forwards it'll get the whole thing rocking in sympathy.

What i suggest you do is find something heavy & place it on the stand, better still something heavy on the front & back. Try it on both speakers & give it a listen, i think you'll be surprised - pleasantly :eyebrows:

OK, will give it a try. Hmmm, not sure what to use as the weights... Where did I put my thinking cap?

The issue with Maggies is that the speaker itself, as it stands, is very volatile. You can easily rock it back and forth just using your pinky finger, and with no effort whatsoever.

Obviously, when the heavy bass kicks in, it certainly makes these slim speakers rock violently, thus messing up the soundstage.

I'm not sure how do you think adding weight to the bottom will stop them from rocking back and forth?

[magiccarpetride]

I've always thought that Magneplanars are crying out for some sort of triangulation structure (EDIT: now I re-read this thread I see it's already been alluded to in an earlier post illustrated with the photo of the Quads).
It shouldn't be too difficult at all to arrange some sort of angled brace betwixt stand and panel

Something like this?

http://www.myesound.com/images/1.6_stealth_bw.jpg

[The Grand Wazoo]

Abso-bleedin'-lutely!
That'd do it.
But you could lash up something a little less permanent/expensive just to prove or disprove the point to yourself. A little thought & some timber battens should let you see the potential, I'd have thought.

[Reid Malenfant]

I'm not sure how do you think adding weight to the bottom will stop them from rocking back and forth?
It won't, but it'll anchor the speakers to the floor better, if you go back to the first page of this thread you'll see i also said to brace the things & add mass to the base ;) I put up a nice picture of some Quad 2905s with a supporting brace & heavy base...

It's common sense or it should be if you have been in this game for long enough..

[magiccarpetride]

It won't, but it'll anchor the speakers to the floor better, if you go back to the first page of this thread you'll see i also said to brace the things & add mass to the base ;) I put up a nice picture of some Quad 2905s with a supporting brace & heavy base...

It's common sense or it should be if you have been in this game for long enough..

Thanks, now that I think about it, makes sense. Some people also advocate placing heavy stuff on the top of the Maggies, however that seems to be a bit more controversial. What's your take on that idea?

[magiccarpetride]

Abso-bleedin'-lutely!
That'd do it.
But you could lash up something a little less permanent/expensive just to prove or disprove the point to yourself. A little thought & some timber battens should let you see the potential, I'd have thought.

The guy who makes those stands (as in the photo above) quoted me $550 plus shipping. I'm thinking maybe there's a more economical way to go about bracing the speakers? Ideas?

[Reid Malenfant]

With heavy stuff up top it'd lower the frequency that the panel will wag back & forth assuming it didn't have some form of bracing like we have discussed ;)

If you brace it & add mass to the base (where it's much safer to do so incidentally :eyebrows:) you'll get exactly the same effect as mass up top & braced.

If you think about it though having a lot of mass high up is a possible recipe for disaster, one hefty knock & the whole lot might go over, put it at the base however & it isn't going anywhere :)

[The Grand Wazoo]

With heavy stuff up top it'd lower the frequency that the panel will wag back & forth assuming it didn't have some form of bracing like we have discussed ;)

If you brace it & add mass to the base (where it's much safer to do so incidentally :eyebrows:) you'll get exactly the same effect as mass up top & braced.

If you think about it though having a lot of mass high up is a possible recipe for disaster, one hefty knock & the whole lot might go over, put it at the base however & it isn't going anywhere :)

Not really as simple as that because loading the bottom will lower the centre of gravity & that's got to help, surely?

[Reid Malenfant]

Not really as simple as that because loading the bottom will lower the centre of gravity & that's got to help, surely?
That's precisely what i'm on about Chris ;) Putting the mass up top will have a similar effect as the base, it'll help anchor the thing to the floor, but as you point out if it's on the base then the centre of gravity is lower - which is much safer no?

:eyebrows:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Oui, oui!

[Welder]

Good Grief :doh:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Are you commenting on my multi-lingual skill or do you think I meant to infer that what Mark said was urine x2?

[Welder]

Neither ;)
Just a bit shocked that anyone who is into good stereo struggles with the idea that its either mass or isolation with speakers in general terms.
Even more concerned with another 20 kg or so swaying about on top of a pair of Maggies :eek:

(having a bad day due to soldering iron burns on my index finger :rolleyes:)