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REXTON
09-01-2011, 09:56
This is very very embryonic but i've spoken to Mike and asked about the possibility of a brand new plinth replacement. I highlighted to Mike that I'd like a single billet design and thus eliminating rubber base plate, inner aluminium chassis and the top plinth, hopefully we could get rid of the strobe button and pitch slider. It'll be expensive due to the soaring costs of aluminium but I think it would probably be one of the single biggest upgrade for the 1210. Mike has a design ready but would like feedback from other AOS'ers regarding the feasability of such a project. OK guys its up to you. :eek:

John
09-01-2011, 10:06
Its worth ago for sure but I think only worth considering if you done everything else.
Basically what you done is created a whole new TT

Marco
09-01-2011, 10:13
I'd be up for it, but I don't think that a single type of material (least of all metal) is the answer. In my view, it would be a recipe for achieving a rather clinical sound, especially as the Techie already has those tendencies. For me, wood would have to feature somewhere in order to add some warmth.

The most sonically effective plinths I believe are those which are designed around a 'sandwich' effect of different materials, such as slate and various hardwoods, as what one is striving for is effective isolation, but not at the expense of one material dominating with its contrubuted sonic signature.

This is where the 'sandwich' idea would come in, as one is harnessing the effect of combining the isolation and sonic properties of various materials.

I'd therefore be open to suggestions on the design of a suitable plinth along those lines :)

Marco.

REXTON
09-01-2011, 11:24
Have you seen the review of Dr. Feikharts turntable in hifi world? This is pretty much a sandwhich of wood and aluminium. I've also looked at several plinths for my 301 and a multi-layered wooden sandwhich seems to recieve glowing reviews.

Marco
09-01-2011, 11:30
Yes, that's why I think it works! The 'sandwich effect' with wood and metal (I'd also put some slate in there, too) is definitely the way :)

I'm not sure though if Mike can work with wood or slate as well as he can with metal...

Marco.

John
09-01-2011, 12:27
I had the super scoutmaster which was a wood aluminium sandwich and worked well but many think arcylic and metal sandwich is better it might be worth speaking to someone like James Heriot

MartinT
09-01-2011, 14:07
The Technics composite sandwich is an excellent design. Don't be too certain that an alternative design will actually sound better.

alfie2902
09-01-2011, 14:30
I had the super scoutmaster which was a wood aluminium sandwich and worked well but many think arcylic and metal sandwich is better it might be worth speaking to someone like James Heriot

I'm using an early VPI HW19 base (well I think that's what it is!) with my DP-6000 to great effect. It uses a 'sandwich' type top plinth which I think is made from steel plates & a fibrous type material, not sure what it is tbh, could be wood, tufnol, cork? It's very heavy & pretty dead to a knuckle rap! I bought it to get the DP-6000 up & running, but am so far very impressed!

I've done a little reading over the last few months & liked the composition of Mitch Cotters old B1 plinth/base that worked very well with the SP10 & DP-6000. Cotter used aluminium & some sort of plastic 'sandwich' & my thoughts were to try an aluminium/acrylic top plinth for it's rigidity, weight & damping through the 2 different materials.

I bought the VPI as a start point my thinking being, I could use the VPI lower plinth & spring suspension/Isolation with aluminium/acrylic or slate top plinth maybe!?

A guy over on the Wam pointed out a new site that a guy called 'cat squirrel' had put together after alot of research & measurements into damping factors & this proves to be very interesting! Cat Squirrel uses Ider drives (lenco IIRC) so damping is probably more important because of rumble, but there's still advantages to be gained for DD or even the belt drives by using a plinth material with a better damping factor! I will link the site for anyone wanting further reading, but it seems a couple of materials came out on top, them being "Newplast" & a reconstructed wood called "Panzerholz". Most of the often used materials don't come out so well i.e. ply-wood, Mdf, Slate, metals etc.

In recent past mass seems to of been what we've looked for in multi-layer ply-wood & slate type plinths. This research into damping factors says that the plinth thickness & WxD measurements are directly related & for a size of plinth will have an optimum thickness! It's very interesting reading indeed!

Jonjin who pointed out this site has gone on to build a "Panzerholz" plinth for his SP10 (well I think Russ Collinson did the cutting as Panzerholz is very hard in fact bullit proof) The results he's getting sound very very good indeed! An improvement may-be over the tombstone slate plinths it seems (not that JJ's A-B tested them)! So I think my next port of call will be to order some "Panzerholz" & see how it compares to my steel/fibrous sandwich!

Here's "cat squirrels sites & research...

http://qualia.webs.com/plinths.htm

http://qualia.webs.com/dampingfactorvalues.htm

And here's Jonjin's thread about his SP10 plinth over on the Wam

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?46818-SP10-plinth-project


Some very interesting reading anyway & does seem to bare out with JJ's plinth project!

Cheers, alfie.

MCRU
09-01-2011, 14:38
Acetal (Delrin) is the material to go for IMHO, I am getting one made for my Techie when I get chance to to an autocad drawing for it! That with the Oyaide mat on top for mass and the weight will be a product to die for, opinions differ of course!

alfie2902
09-01-2011, 15:14
Acetal (Delrin) is the material to go for IMHO, .............. opinions differ of course!

What brings you to this conclusion Dave?

I'm all for listening to a product & judging it's merits that way!
But I'm finding this 'Damping factor' research quite interesting, adding a little science to plinth building!

Acetal used alone is someway behind alot of materials from damping factor point of view, if all cat squirrels measurements are to be believed!

John
09-01-2011, 15:35
Thanks Alfie fasinating reading I think much to ponder on
Yes looking at your picture I can see its a HW19 plinth perhaps it a MK4 (nice TT by the way)

John
09-01-2011, 15:46
Looking at the sites Alfie suggested this material seems to work very well with the SP10 so should do the same with the 1210 The link to the plinth is for a 301 but could be cut out for a 1210

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/skeletal-delignit-panzerholz-plinth-garrard-301-/330485399325

Ammonite Acoustics
09-01-2011, 16:27
Kuzma use a sandwich of aluminium and acrylic in their Stabi Reference - a deck designed on sound principles that I would love to hear:

http://www.kuzma.si/AmplioCMS2/gallery//3770/20080914022653423_L.jpg

That said, I'm with Martin on the subject of the Techie plinth. The alloy bit certainly has problems with rigidity, hence Mike New's stiffening plate, but is there more to be had from it? I reckon that the last thing it needs is mass - that could turn a fleet-footed record player into a plodding, pudding of a thing, if not very carefully done. If I had to choose a material, it would be Panzerholz, machined to the same profile as the standard plinth, but not too deep nor too massy.

MCRU
09-01-2011, 16:27
Russ is a master of his art, I will be getting another plinth off him soon for my next Lenco. Acetal is used already for platters and has been for years. It also features on the new Oracle Delphi.

alfie2902
09-01-2011, 16:38
Yes that plinth of Russ Collinson in Panzerholz is vey nice!

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss55/alfie2902/RussPanzerholz.jpg

It's just the top single layer cut out for the DP-6000 I'm thinking of trying!

I also agree this could be a very nice option for a 1210!

Cat Squirrels site is newish & there's some updates to the last time I had a good read there. He seems to be doing more tests/research into sandwich type plinths & some of the results do look good!

P.s. that Kuzma Stabi Reference looks stunning!!

DSJR
09-01-2011, 17:20
I think that if you're going "heavy," it must be EXTREMELY heavy and inert with no half measures, as cutting lathes are. Light but rigid is a great thing for lower priced decks like Rega, but I'm not sure a "middle way" would be quite the thing for the techie, unless a mid weight composite/sandwich style base (great idea this) could be plonked in a heavy sand box or similar perhaps?

alfie2902
09-01-2011, 17:46
I think that if you're going "heavy," it must be EXTREMELY heavy and inert with no half measures, as cutting lathes are. Light but rigid is a great thing for lower priced decks like Rega, but I'm not sure a "middle way" would be quite the thing for the techie, unless a mid weight composite/sandwich style base (great idea this) could be plonked in a heavy sand box or similar perhaps?

Hmm... I think though Dave, that the research from the Audio Qualia web site is challenging this "Heavy" - "Total Mass" approach & saying that a material has an optimum thickness for the size (LxW) of the plinth for it's damping factor to be at it's most effective! Adding more mass according to the research could make the materials damping effect less effective! May-be there is more to this than adding mass?

It's early days for this research but the results so far look positive!

Spectral Morn
09-01-2011, 17:58
The amount of experimentation required to get this right will be high. Many prototypes will need to be constructed to achieve the right design and blend of materials. What works for other companies products (remember they have been in all likely hood designed from foundations up) may not work for the already completed design (in Technics eyes) 1200/1210.

This is an interesting project idea but it will need a lot of work/time and expense before a finished product can be marketed.

As an aside Clearaudio use Panzerholz in their designs sandwiched between aluminium.


Regards D S D L

John
09-01-2011, 18:33
As an aside Clearaudio use Panzerholz in their designs sandwiched between aluminium.


Regards D S D L
Now that would not inspire me

REXTON
09-01-2011, 18:50
I'd be interested to implement urethane into the sandwhich, these are some of the best known materials for vibration absorption and also handle being loaded with very high masses. I suppose urethane could dry out and thats why things like wood and aluminium are used in plinth construction. The "alloy" will have a direct effect on the sonic qualities of the 1210. I cant see how a group of AOS'ers are going to have access to multiple alloy types, unless we have a metallurgist (sic??). So experimenting with aluminium would be easier but still quite expensive. Hmmmm.... let the experimenting begin. ;)

MCRU
09-01-2011, 19:34
Well I am into plastics (over 20 years) and have experience machining metals as well, TBH I think every last drop of performance has been eeked out of the SL1200/1210 with all the bits and bobs one can buy and any platter experiments cannot make much more of a difference can they?

Considering you can put an SME 5 or something even better on and a 2k cartridge, along with MN platter, Paul's PSU, MN bearing and various mats and weights, oyaide tone arm cable what possible increase in sound quality can be brought to the table with a different platter material?

I am doing my own thing with the platter only because I cannot justify all the above at the moment. If I had all the above I would be simply sat listening to my vinyl, oh I almost forgot the Furutech brush.

anthonyTD
09-01-2011, 19:48
hi all,
i worked for a short while with a very talented guy who used to work on sound proofing and resonance cancelation for Aston Martin, he had designed amongst other things a plinth for the 301 and 401, it consisted of multiple sandwiches of MDF and some kind of rubber material [not sure if it was neoprene ?] what ever his thinking behind the design, it seemed to work very well.
Anthony,TD...

REXTON
09-01-2011, 19:50
Well I am into plastics (over 20 years) and have experience machining metals as well, TBH I think every last drop of performance has been eeked out of the SL1200/1210 with all the bits and bobs one can buy and any platter experiments cannot make much more of a difference can they?

Considering you can put an SME 5 or something even better on and a 2k cartridge, along with MN platter, Paul's PSU, MN bearing and various mats and weights, oyaide tone arm cable what possible increase in sound quality can be brought to the table with a different platter material?

I am doing my own thing with the platter only because I cannot justify all the above at the moment. If I had all the above I would be simply sat listening to my vinyl, oh I almost forgot the Furutech brush.

Thats really really great news perhaps we could utilise your experience or ask your opinion on these subjects. I dont think your correct with regards getting every last bit of performance out of the 1210, everything can always be improved, thats the basis of science, you know, nothing stays in stasis, yadda yadda :lol: Incidently, we are trying to design a plinth and not a platter, but I respect your urge to design your own, who know's you may have the best platter out of all (perhaps we could do a comparison, your only 5-10 miles away :eek::eek:). Anway, tonights free time is going to be spent seeing where I can implement dampening onto the intrinsic components of the 1210, armboard, pcb, etc etc. I like NAIM's idea of how they do stuff, they are anal about detail and generally get a great sound. This is my hobby so I dont mind tinkering :eyebrows: if you get better sonic performance and can help others to enjoy the 1210 more then great!!

REXTON
09-01-2011, 19:52
hi all,
i worked for a short while with a very talented guy who used to work on sound proofing and resonance cancelation for Aston Martin, he had designed amongst other things a plinth for the 301 and 401, it consisted of multiple sandwiches of MDF and some kind of rubber material [not sure if it was neoprene ?] what ever his thinking behind the design, it seemed to work very well.
Anthony,TD...


This is the sort of idea that I had and how some of the garrard plinths have been designed. The dampening material would probably be sorbothane rather than neoprene, if its in an Aston Martin it should be more exotic than neoprene :cool:

Spectral Morn
09-01-2011, 20:06
Now that would not inspire me


Not all of them John....I can't of hand remember which ones :scratch: I think its the more up market TTs


Regards D S D L

WOStantonCS100
10-01-2011, 08:05
I actually came to AOS by way of a thread where someone (here, I believe) actually replinthed his Techie in a wood sandwich of some sort? I think it had a dog for a record weight; 2 armboards. I've seen some awesome plinths for the SP-10, slate, etc. It would be great to have an option for the 1200, which is a might bit tricky. Personally, I really like the look of the Kodo "The Beat"; very clean, though I have no idea what it's made out of.

As an aside, someone also pointed out that the other MK2's (suspended) were a good candidate because they are already "modular". I have recently gutted a 1500MK2 and can attest that it'll definitely be easier than a 1200, which is more than I want to tackle. So, I'd be happy if someone took up the 1200/1210 challenge.

...watching intently...

Mike_New
10-01-2011, 12:36
Gosh, This thread has taken off before I have had a chance to comment, until now!

The very fact that there are so many opinions on what makes the ideal material for the new plinth, or indeed if we need one at all; is the very reason why I have not proceeded at this time.
It is true that I have a CAD design on ice,I can indeed work in wood or plastic or any other material for that matter if you all can decide on what it should be!!
Incidentally, I would have to be outsourced the machining, as it will require a three axis NC Mill.

However what you all must bear in mind, is that the SL1200 is a tightly integrated design embodying the platter/rotor/coil/PCB components into the one assembly.
This makes the design of any new chassis/plinth, less than straight forward and would provide some nasty surprises for the unwary. As indeed is the case with the Platter! As we have discovered. Machining a lump of alluminium is the easy part, it’s what comes after is the tricky part.

Martin perhaps is the more prosaic in his comment that perhaps the SL1200 is better off as it is. Indeed the SL1200 does have a tri-sandwich design, which I believe works very well considering it was never really fully implemented.

What I have done is to design what I have called a Bottom Base Plate. This plate fits to the underside of the rubber outer plinth and serves to effectively clamp the three components together far more effectively than at present.
The clamp bolts go through the rubber and middle composite member into the alluminium chassis posts.

This Bottom Plate would be made of 6mm alluminium and extend the whole area of the underside of the rubber base. However the screwed feet locations in the rubber base would still be retained, as I believe they are better placed (sonically) where they are, than to relocate them into the base plate.

These plates will need to be water cut profiled and then detailed. I estimate they would cost about $390.00 plus shipping.
Although the shipping cost may perhaps go away in the future!

They will however require a degree of DIY capability to fit them, as indeed would a completely new plinth!!

I would also like to point out that Yves in Canada has made mention of his approach to improving the Chassis/Plinth by using silicone filler to actually closely fit the inner composite moulding to the Alluminium chassis.
This, I would recommend, be done when using the Bottom Plate.
Also Pete in La has some ideas on the subject

So, in summation are there any of you who want to further improve your SL1200 with the Bottom Plate. I am happy to order 5 off to start with until we get some feedback.

colinB
10-01-2011, 14:27
Like the base plate idea more than the plinth to be honest. Makes sense to strengthen and fill the cavity with aluminum. And i dont like taking away the DNA of the design to much. I wasnt that happy i changed from a S-arm to a straight arm tbh.

Marco
10-01-2011, 14:47
I too like the idea of the base plate and will try one out later in the year, once I have fulfilled some other priorities :)

I also agree that it would be wise to proceed with caution regarding replacing the plinth, as the stock version ain't too shabby.

Before I'd entertain going that route, I'd need to read detailed reports from trusted ears who've actually tried some of the proposed solutions, and then I'd want to visit somewhere where I could compare my deck to one fitted with a new plinth, and hear the results for myself :cool:

So if anyone in the UK where I can visit wants go ahead and design a new plinth, I'll be 'all ears' on the finished results!

Marco.

colinB
10-01-2011, 15:05
Some interesting stuff on the sound fountain site about the sp10 and its plinth. This may not be relevant and may not be new ground for members but his thoughts are aluminum\ ply sandwich works well on direct drive and support feet work better contacting the TT as as a single point ( isonoe? ).
His preference is for a solid hard mat in conjunction with a record weight.

MartinT
10-01-2011, 15:16
Warning: the Base Plate installation is non-trivial! :)

See post #60
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7203&highlight=Base+Plate&page=6

colinB
10-01-2011, 17:11
I didnt think that was meant by the new base plate. I thought that was the bearing plate:scratch:

By the way i have my isonoes on the sorbothane footers sitting on a ( slightly buckled ) quadraspire perspex shelf. Should i be sitting them on the glass coasters ?

MartinT
10-01-2011, 18:10
We may have a naming clash - Mike called what I installed a Base Plate but he now refers to this new underside thingy as a Base Plate. Mike - help!

Also, am I right in thinking that 'my' Base Plate would need to be installed in order to make the 'underside' Base Plate work?

Mike_New
10-01-2011, 22:20
Martin,
Sorry about that, I did in one instance call it a Base Plate. In fact it is a Bottom Plate as it's application would suggest. I have corrected the error.

Mike_New
10-01-2011, 22:53
Warning: the Base Plate installation is non-trivial! :)


Martin,
In actual fact, fitting the Bottom Plate is not as difficult as fitting the Bearing Base Plate.
There are two circles of self tap screws and large washers, which currently loosely hold the Rubber Base to the Alluminium Chassis via the cast-in posts on the chassis. One circle of 4 and one circle of 7
What I propose, is to thread the inner circle of 4 holes to take a 4mm bolt.
the 7 outer holes would be theaded to take 5mm bolts.

This approach allows much more clampiing presure between the three components:-- (Alluminium chassis, Composite moulded center piece and the outer rubber plinth). Also, applying silicon compound between the chassis and the centre moulding will provide a closer 'connection' between the two, as submitted by Yves.

If you turn your SL1200 over, you will see that the screws as mentioned above, are not ideal, and become loose as the rubber is slowly compressed.

Further, to avoid the necessity of dismantling the SL1200 when fitting or servicing the tone Arm. I have developed a 5mm threaded taper plug which is pulled up into the existing large tapered holes, and stays there!!

This then allows the removal of the Arm Board, FROM THE TOP, without having to remove the rubber Plinth, with the big advantage that you do not have to turn the whole bloody assembly upside down to get at the screws. which can be pretty traumatic if you are fitting a SME-V with a Benz Ruby MC!!

SCUMM
11-09-2012, 22:55
What I have done is to design what I have called a Bottom Base Plate. This plate fits to the underside of the rubber outer plinth and serves to effectively clamp the three components together far more effectively than at present.
The clamp bolts go through the rubber and middle composite member into the alluminium chassis posts.

This Bottom Plate would be made of 6mm alluminium and extend the whole area of the underside of the rubber base. However the screwed feet locations in the rubber base would still be retained, as I believe they are better placed (sonically) where they are, than to relocate them into the base plate.

These plates will need to be water cut profiled and then detailed. I estimate they would cost about $390.00 plus shipping.
Although the shipping cost may perhaps go away in the future!

They will however require a degree of DIY capability to fit them, as indeed would a completely new plinth!!

I would also like to point out that Yves in Canada has made mention of his approach to improving the Chassis/Plinth by using silicone filler to actually closely fit the inner composite moulding to the Alluminium chassis.
This, I would recommend, be done when using the Bottom Plate.
Also Pete in La has some ideas on the subject

So, in summation are there any of you who want to further improve your SL1200 with the Bottom Plate. I am happy to order 5 off to start with until we get some feedback.

Has any progress been made on the production of the bottom base plate our has it been abandoned?

Mike_New
12-09-2012, 06:35
Hi Caleb,
I have never proceeded as there was little interest in it.

REXTON
12-09-2012, 06:59
Mike,

Have you ever thought of running a poll on the forum to see iPhone much interest actually exists?? I'd certainly be up for one. You now potentially have two orders. :eyebrows:

Andrew

MartinT
12-09-2012, 07:45
No interest in iPhone here ;)

Mike_New
12-09-2012, 08:19
Hi Andrew,
Yea I hear what you are saying, but the fundmental problem is that not everyone is dialed into AoS all the time for a poll to produce any solid results.
My "you beut" discount offer for my bearing has not really got too many people in at the moment. And it would not be sensible to make only three off Bottom Plates as the unit cost would be too high.

Also I believe there is a far more basic factor to consider, in what I and shuggie are doing, and that is "language." If Marco is reading this; I have got to thinking, how can we break down this barrier. The reason I have raised this is that a large number of my Bearing customers in the non English speaking world are in the sandinavian countries and Holland where English is the second language (often the first). However any interest from France, Italy, Spain or even Germany has been minimal.
I guess I am asking, how can we make it easier for those people to read and participate in this forum?? (Not just beacuse of my bearings I might add.)
All the other subjects and threads I am sure would be of interest.

Would it be possible to run auto-translation in parrallel to the english version
so that the four languages could be represented?

REXTON
12-09-2012, 08:34
There are certainly plug in modules for browsers like Firefox which is what I use to translate virtually any combination of languages you like, I translate a lot of Russian stuff. Goggle also has this option so this means that any person viewing your web page should easily be able to translate directly from google. Just out of interest how much would it cost for a single order of the plinth ????

Marco
12-09-2012, 08:38
Hi Mike,


I guess I am asking, how can we make it easier for those people to read and participate in this forum?? (Not just beacuse of my bearings I might add.)
All the other subjects and threads I am sure would be of interest.

Would it be possible to run auto-translation in parrallel to the english version
so that the four languages could be represented?


Good question! The answer is, I don't know, but it sounds complicated... Best plan is to raise the subject in the Critic's Corner section of the forum, here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11 and our resident boffins will be able to answer :)

Marco.

REXTON
08-10-2012, 19:47
Just had another read of this thread, do you think inspire nicked some of our ideas and implemented them in their deck http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/inspirehifi/Links_files/HFW_Inspire%20Monarch%20Jan12%5B1%5D.pdf :scratch:

Mike_New
08-10-2012, 22:43
Hi Andrew,
I've just read all the HFW guff on this modified SL.
How can they say all that rubbish, "determining the make of the violin", when the thing still appears to be using the old OEM bearing!!

Marco
08-10-2012, 22:55
Is it not a Cawley Timestep-bodged bearing they're using?

Marco.

Mike_New
08-10-2012, 23:50
It could well be, but you can see that it uses the old flimsy cast bearing housing.