Hi, nice to find this forum

[BTH K10A]

I'm Andy.
I've had an eclectic mix of kit over the years but have now decided to slow down the changes as I'm very content with my current setup below

TT's: EMT 930st, EMT 938 & Garrard 401
Speakers: JBL Array 1400, BTH K10A & Celestion SL6
CD / SACD: Pioneer PD-D9-J & Sony PS1
Pre: Toft LBPA5, Neumann W444STA & BTH A1A
Power: DPA OS51 SE PE1/100, MF 550k & BTH A1A
Tuner: Sansui TU-517
RTR: Pioneer RT-707
Cassette: Nakamichi 600
CD Matching: Western Electric 119C tranformers & MF X-10v3

I mostly play vinyl but I must admit I have been smitten by SACD.

[Tarzan]

Welcome aboard fellow Andy- some very nice kit there!:cool:

[keiths]

Welcome Andy.
Great list of kit. What sorts of music get a spin on it?
Sent from my HTC Tattoo using Tapatalk

[Barry]

Welcome to AoS Andy

Another lover of vintage equipment and EMT to boot - you should feel right at home here.

What sort of music do you like to listen to?

Regards

[BTH K10A]

Hi,
Music is mostly classical but I have rock, jazz, funk, soul etc too.

Pic below is of my BTH A1A stereo amp. Has matching pre too. Much better than any of the Leak amps I have owned.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/104-0494_IMG.jpg

[Jonboy]

Hello Andy, nice se amp you have there looks like solid state rectifier as well, i know this manufacture for making magnetos but i have not heard their amps, very Leak looking

[BTH K10A]

Hello Andy, nice se amp you have there looks like solid state rectifier as well, i know this manufacture for making magnetos but i have not heard their amps, very Leak looking

Yes is is similar in concept to a Leak stereo 20. Like the Leak it uses a GZ34 for rectification. The other valves are three ECC83's and four EL84's. It is not hard wired like Leak's but uses a pcb instead.

BTH were producing audio equipment from the earliest days of radio & hifi. The RK mains energised speakers were some of the first to use the rice kellog patent. They produced Sound and vision equipment for cinemas and the mains energised (or field coil) 18" bass speakers were identical to Western Electric 4181 and Jensen V2 speakers. As well as these they produced compression drivers, crossovers, horns and cinema amplifier racks. . Domestic amps were produced with EL34 monoblocs and an EL84 stereo chassis. Later drivers used alnico magnets and the 18" dual concentrics from the 50's were also sold as a domestic speaker. My pair can be seen in my avatar and I've posted some data.

Bottom pics is one of the BTH speakers installed in the Odeon lester square in the 30's. Uses four of the field coil 18: bass drivers in a shearer horn with four mid/hi compression drivers on twin ten cell horns.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/104-0491_IMG.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/17a7993c0.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/bth2.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/sc0034de41.jpg

[John]

Hi Andy
Spme lovelly gear and a owner of the marvelous EMT wow

[Macca]

Hi Andy - welcome to AOS

Let's see a pic of those JBLs?

[BTH K10A]

QUOTE=Macca;177262]Hi Andy - welcome to AOS

Let's see a pic of those JBLs?[/QUOTE]

Hi Martin, thanks for the welcome.

A couple of pics just taken of the Arrays.





http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0807.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0809.jpg

[Macca]

Very nice indeed!:)

[Jonboy]

You certainly have the bug alright, the BTH amp is push pull then, i couldn't see the other valves, i like the old cinema stuff, been offered whats left of an old 1930's cinema amp and speaker, its not complete but i really aught to go and have a look you never know it might be a px25 or something,

[BTH K10A]

You certainly have the bug alright, the BTH amp is push pull then, i couldn't see the other valves, i like the old cinema stuff, been offered whats left of an old 1930's cinema amp and speaker, its not complete but i really aught to go and have a look you never know it might be a px25 or something,

It's always worth saving old cinema audio equipment. Amps are nearly always restorable and the speakers were usually designed to be servicable on site so are repairable too. Even if its only one amp and speaker with little hope of finding others to pair up you can have the beginnings of a wonderful true mono system.

[MartinT]

Very nice, Andy. I've always liked JBLs and would lust after yours were it not for the fact that I'm very happy with my speakers. A very underrated brand, I think, because of the reputation of some past speakers that were really designed for studios (like the Century).

[Marco]

Hi Andy,

Welcome to AoS :)

Wow - that's some system, but an even more impressive record collection!! :wow:

Love those BTH cinema speakers - now them's propa bad boys! :eek:

Huge speakers rule... I like your JBLs, but lets see those EMTs!! :cool:

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

Hi Andy,

Welcome to AoS :)

Wow - that's some system, but an even more impressive record collection!! :wow:

Love those BTH cinema speakers - now them's propa bad boys! :eek:

Huge speakers rule... I like your JBLs, but lets see those EMTs!! :cool:

Marco.

Hi Marco
Yes the record collection has grown a bit. Thats the thinned out version. I've got boxes full of records upstairs that I need to start getting rid of.

The EMT's are great. I have had thesetwo about 14 years or so
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0805.jpg
This is the 930st. Dates from 1963. It would have originally had an Ortofon RF229 arm and has the hole where the backstop post used to be but was changed to the EMT 929 arm sometime in it's life. It has the 155st phono unit. I mostly use this with a TMD25 mono cartridge as the 155st has lots of EQ options and flexibility. I picked this up in Germany from a recording studio that was going all digital along with a Telefunken M10 RTR and its amps.


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0806.jpg
This is the 938 my wife bought me for christmas just before I aquired the 930. It has the moving coil phono boards and is a joy to use.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0808.jpg
Because the EMTs and some other kit I have had in the past like Telefunken and Klangfilm amps use balanced inputs/outputs I bought a Toft LBPA5 pre. It's an amazing bit of kit wih switchable balanced/SE phone option on all inputs and outputs. It's totally silent too which is something I've never found with any other pre. It hasn't got hi end looks but I don't really care.

Just noticed it's a bit dusty in the pic so I'll have to do a bit of cleaning in my music room. Our cleaners are banned from my room after after a previous one dusted one of my amps and managed to crack the glass on one of a pair of EF866 valves ( a neumann specced super EF86). These are rarer than hens teeth and I've never been able to find another.

[SPS]

some nice kit there,

i too have some bth kit, a rather large power supply and 3 matching amps they are ef37 driving kt66's, p/p cinema amps
i've searched for info on them but found nothing so far, i'm more into single ended amps... but they look like they have some nice iron in them

i think i also may have a bth compresion driver, I have a few in a box somewhere
i love the old kit.. and have some quite rare stuff

welcome..

steve

[Beechwoods]

Welcome to the forum Andy. I must admit your choice of gear is a pretty impeccable :)

I have an RT707 and it's a lovely machine. Sounds fantastic, and so well engineered. And you've got a Nak 600... gorgeous! The old 'slice style' Naks definitely have something about them. Is yours silver or black? I hope both of them still get regular use!

[BTH K10A]

Welcome to the forum Andy. I must admit your choice of gear is a pretty impeccable :)

I have an RT707 and it's a lovely machine. Sounds fantastic, and so well engineered. And you've got a Nak 600... gorgeous! The old 'slice style' Naks definitely have something about them. Is yours silver or black? I hope both of them still get regular use!

Thanks Nick. The Nak is silver, if you look to the right of the pic of the JBL's on page 1 you will see the TR707, TU-517 & Nak 600.

I bought the RT707 because I picked up a large batch of pre recorded classical tapes that had a lot of Szell Beethoven, Schumann etc on the Epic label in it. In the crazy world we live in it was way cheaper to buy the RT707 than buy an original Columbia SAX copy of the Szell Beethoven 9th. It is a very well built machine with excellent sound and very user friendly.

I used to have a Telefunken M10 complete with V386 & V387 record and replay amps. It was getting little use so I ended up selling it. I understand it is now in Russia.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1358.jpg

[Beechwoods]

if you look to the right of the pic of the JBL's on page 1 you will see the TR707, TU-517 & Nak 600.

:doh: You have a big room! I scanned the pics and missed them the first time! Seriously... the RT707 looks a lot bigger in my place!

The Telefunken is a serious piece of gear. And a pancake player to boot! I read somewhere that some of The Beatles' Hamburg sessions were recorded on an M10.

[Barry]

Hi Marco
Yes the record collection has grown a bit. Thats the thinned out version. I've got boxes full of records upstairs that I need to start getting rid of.

The EMT's are great. I have had thesetwo about 14 years or so
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0805.jpg
This is the 930st. Dates from 1963. It would have originally had an Ortofon RF229 arm and has the hole where the backstop post used to be but was changed to the EMT 929 arm sometime in it's life. It has the 155st phono unit. I mostly use this with a TMD25 mono cartridge as the 155st has lots of EQ options and flexibility. I picked this up in Germany from a recording studio that was going all digital along with a Telefunken M10 RTR and its amps.


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0806.jpg
This is the 938 my wife bought me for christmas just before I aquired the 930. It has the moving coil phono boards and is a joy to use.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0808.jpg
Because the EMTs and some other kit I have had in the past like Telefunken and Klangfilm amps use balanced inputs/outputs I bought a Toft LBPA5 pre. It's an amazing bit of kit wih switchable balanced/SE phone option on all inputs and outputs. It's totally silent too which is something I've never found with any other pre. It hasn't got hi end looks but I don't really care.

Just noticed it's a bit dusty in the pic so I'll have to do a bit of cleaning in my music room. Our cleaners are banned from my room after after a previous one dusted one of my amps and managed to crack the glass on one of a pair of EF866 valves ( a neumann specced super EF86). These are rarer than hens teeth and I've never been able to find another.

Wow! Now that's what I call a record collection. Is it prominately classical?

The EMTs look very nice. Is the supporting frame of the 930 an EMT item; I think I've seen a photo of something similar elsewhere. My 930 is in a massively heavy plinth/cabinet that does the job but is pig-ugly to look at. I want to replace it with something more elegant.

Re. the EF866, you might be interested in the following:

http://roehre.cwsurf.de/Roehren/Verstaerkerroehren/Pentoden/EF866.html

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Funkwerk-Erfurt-TKF-EF866-Gold-Pin-Tube-/290519446210

Regards

[BTH K10A]

Wow! Now that's what I call a record collection. Is it prominately classical?

The EMTs look very nice. Is the supporting frame of the 930 an EMT item; I think I've seen a photo of something similar elsewhere. My 930 is in a massively heavy plinth/cabinet that does the job but is pig-ugly to look at. I want to replace it with something more elegant.

Regards

Hi Barry, yes it's at least 90% classical with a variety of genres making up the rest.

I stripped down a massive Danish Radio trolley custom built for their EMT's to just leave the top plate, the suspension blocks it sits on, and the supporting frame. The original trolley worked well but was nextel covered which had gone very tacky as nextel does with age. I also have a massive H shaped steel casting which has a further suspension system from the bottom of the trolley.
I hope to eventually have some blocks made up to attach the two suspension systems together.
In the spirit of recycling the carcass of the trolley now serves as a saw-bench for logs in my garden.
If you look on Stefano Passini's site he has a pic of a 930 on one of these DR trollies. It would originally have had a removable wooden plinth that sat on top to keep dust out.

It would probably be possible to have a similar frame made out of steam bent wood. Something like Beech or Ash. One of those companies that does replacement wood frames for old cars could probably knock one up.
Bolted to a heavy base with a suspension/isolation system, it should work well.

[BTH K10A]

:doh: You have a big room! I scanned the pics and missed them the first time! Seriously... the RT707 looks a lot bigger in my place!

The Telefunken is a serious piece of gear. And a pancake player to boot! I read somewhere that some of The Beatles' Hamburg sessions were recorded on an M10.

I would think it was most likely that any Beatles Hamburg recordings were done on a Telefunken machine. I they were mono it may have been on an M5.

I sold the M10 together with its solid state record and replay amps for £250 which I suppose is cheap but as I only paid 300 german marks (about £100) for it I was happy.

[Mr.Ian]

I bought a Toft LBPA5 pre. It's an amazing bit of kit wih switchable balanced/SE phone option on all inputs and outputs. It's totally silent too which is something I've never found with any other pre. It hasn't got hi end looks but I don't really care.



I'm running a Toft too - I will vouch for the amazing too - totally silent, transparancy to die for and so much flexibility, as I understand it there were only ever 14 built !

[Ali Tait]

Been digging around, saw a post of yours elsewhere. Is it true there were only 14 of these made?

[BTH K10A]

I'm running a Toft too - I will vouch for the amazing too - totally silent, transparancy to die for and so much flexibility, as I understand it there were only ever 14 built !

Hi Ian

I'm not sure how many were built but it could not have been many. In Feb 98 they retailed for £1,395 and I think that at that price buyers may have wanted more bling for the money. The LBPA5 does look a bit like a budget amp but it's whats inside that counts. The owners manual is like a bound report you would do at work.

I bought mine specifically as I had two EMT turntables and a Studer CD that only had balanced outputs and the Telefunken V69 amps I was using had balanced inputs. I bought it on a recommendation and yes I expected it to be good but I was amazed at how unobtrusive it was. It's like a top spec passive pre with gain:)

this ad dates from 1998

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/sc002f4c7e.jpg

[Trickie_Dickie]

I think I'll just keep my head down. Nice piece of kit you have there.

:band:

[Mr.Ian]

Dont supose the Toft manual has a circuit diagram in it by chance? I dont have a manual for mine.

I have a slight volume imbalance starting to appear, guess the pot is the most likley culprit - tracked it down as a Bourns unit

But am half thinking about trying swapping swapping the op amps for some OPA2134 - but the current draw is much higher on them than the TL072 Guess the cicuit diagram might help identify if it was ok before I invested my pennies.

[BTH K10A]

Dont supose the Toft manual has a circuit diagram in it by chance? I dont have a manual for mine.

I have a slight volume imbalance starting to appear, guess the pot is the most likley culprit - tracked it down as a Bourns unit

But am half thinking about trying swapping swapping the op amps for some OPA2134 - but the current draw is much higher on them than the TL072 Guess the cicuit diagram might help identify if it was ok before I invested my pennies.

There's no circuit diagram in the manual but you may be able to get one from Malcolm Toft. I did have a contact number but can't find it at present. You may be able to reach him via Linkedin.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/professor-malcolm-toft/7/893/85b

[Mr.Ian]

swapped the TL072's for TLE2072CP in the end, current draw was very similar - sound is a little less grainy and slightly more detailed now, but very little in it. Think I would need to upgrade my linkedin account to contact MT direct.

[BTH K10A]

swapped the TL072's for TLE2072CP in the end, current draw was very similar - sound is a little less grainy and slightly more detailed now, but very little in it. Think I would need to upgrade my linkedin account to contact MT direct.

It's good you saw some benefit in the change. I'm not surprised there was only a slight difference though as the performance of the LBPA5 is quite amazing anyway.

Did you have any trouble in sourcing the pot?

[Mr.Ian]

Working out what it actually was took me a while, but after that it was very straightfoward several suppliers had them. I got mine from Farnell, part No: Bourns Part No: 91A2A-B28-D15/D15L

Mind you moving 1 chair 2 feet towards one speaker seems to have cured the problem so it might be room set up.

One day I will get round to tracking down a local guru to check it out for me. Need some one who will be willing to service sympathetically and source like for like components if needed rather than using what ever is to hand.

[BTH K10A]

TT's:
EMT 930st / 155ST / 929 / TSD15 / TMD25
EMT 938 / TSD15 SFL / Denon DL-103
Garrard 401 / Acos Lustre / Denon DL-102 / Ortofon SL15E + 2-15K SUT / Ortofon S15TE / GE RPX

Speakers:
JBL Array 1400
BTH K10A 18" Dual Concentric's
Westrex 2326A
Isophon 30/37 - DHB 6/2

CD / SACD:
Pioneer PD-D9-J
Sony PS1

Pre:
Toft LBPA5
Neumann W444STA
BTH A1A
Cambridge Audio C100
NAD 1240

Power:
DPA OS51 SE PE1/100 stereo
MF 550k monoblocs
BTH A1A EL84 stereo
Elliot Mullard 5-20 EL34 stereo
Presto 45 PP Triode monoblocs

Tuner:
Sansui TU-517

RTR:
Pioneer RT-707

Cassette:
Nakamichi 600

CD Matching:
Western Electric 119C tranformers
MF X-10v3

RCM:
Lorricraft PRC4

[Barry]

Some nice kit there Andy! :drool:

How does the Ortofon S15TE compare with the SL15E/II (+ transformer)?

Regards an EMT and Ortofon lover.

[BTH K10A]

Some nice kit there Andy! :drool:

How does the Ortofon S15TE compare with the SL15E/II (+ transformer)?

Regards an EMT and Ortofon lover.

There's very little in it barry. The S15TE uses the same transformers as the 2-15k SUT. The S15E is easier to match with tonearms compared to the very heavy S15TE which requires a lot of counterweight.

I've heard that the S15TE also had a sightly lower compliance suspension (heavier grade rubber?) than the SL15E but it's not noticeable in use.

The SL15E also sounds better with the 2-15k SUT than the later MCA76 which I also have.

[DSJR]

I remember the MCA76 being rather grainy and veiled (I had one once and we stocked the odd one or two)...

[BTH K10A]

I remember the MCA76 being rather grainy and veiled (I had one once and we stocked the odd one or two)...

Yes I found it made the music a little subdued compared to it's predecessor the 2-15K and the SUT's fitted to The SPUGTE & S15TE. It may be that the input/output impedances were altered to allow use with a greater range of cartridges rather than meet the specific needs of SPU's or SL15's and therefore not optimising their capability.

[Barry]

I remember the MCA76 being rather grainy and veiled (I had one once and we stocked the odd one or two)...

Agreed - I had one, bundled in with the Ortofon MC20 cartridge. Neither stayed with me for long, I preferred the SL15Es.

[BTH K10A]

Time for me to say goodbye.

Perhaps my tastes in hifi are a little too esoteric. The forum it certainly one of the best out there but I find that recently there are so few like minded souls that for me, the forum has lost it's magic.

[Marco]

Hi Andy,

We'd be sorry to lose you. It's not unusual to feel that way sometimes about forums, as the content found there and people's contributions vary from time to time, some of which may interest you more than others, so the best plan is to take a break and come back when you're ready.

There's no onus on you to be here every day, so just come and go as you please, mate :)

Marco.

[MartinT]

There's no need to go, Andy. Just dip in and out as you please.

[Barry]

Just stumbled across this post!

Don't leave us Andy, we need enthusiasts of lesser known and vintage audio equipment like you.

It might be true that the majority of members here don't really share your interest in the vintage exotica you post about, but I can assure you that I enjoy reading of your finds 'out there' on internet auction sites (as well as sharing your interest in EMT designs).

So do as Martin and Marco have suggested; take a break and come back when you feel ready.

Best Regards

[Rare Bird]

I know how you feel Andy, i get frustrated staring at crappy moosik people play :lol: no one shares the same intrests in things as i do.but i always end back here.

[MartinT]

That's 'cause we loves you, Andr'e :)

[BTH K10A]

Tried it back here again but it seem that there are still no like minded souls into vintage cinema and studio hifi . :(

[struth]

I like vintage cinema.....well, not too vintage;)

[Barry]

Tried it back here again but it seem that there are still no like minded souls into vintage cinema and studio hifi . :(

Well I may not be interested in cinema audio (pretty low fidelity in my opinion) but I am interested in studio gear and audio gear used in broadcast studios (such as the BBC).

So that would be: Thorens, Garrard, Technics, Quad (speakers as well as amps), Radford, Leak, Ortofon, EMT, Decca, Denon, AKG, Audio Technica, Neumann, SME, Shure, Tannoy, B&W, Studer, Telefunken and Siemens, Surry Electronics, Partridge, Parmeko, Gardners, Bayer and Reid & Siegrist.

[Marco]

Vintage cinema gear? Altecs rule!

Wouldn’t mind a pair of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Altec-Lansing-19-Studio-Monitors-Hi-Fi-Speakers-Mint-Condition-/121564448599?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4dce4757

This is probably more where it’s at, though…….


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/4SgJAe.jpg


:eek: :eyebrows:

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

Well I may not be interested in cinema audio (pretty low fidelity in my opinion) but I am interested in studio gear and audio gear used in broadcast studios (such as the BBC).

So that would be: Thorens, Garrard, Technics, Quad (speakers as well as amps), Radford, Leak, Ortofon, EMT, Decca, Denon, AKG, Audio Technica, Neumann, SME, Shure, Tannoy, B&W, Studer, Telefunken and Siemens, Surry Electronics, Partridge, Parmeko, Gardners, Bayer and Reid & Siegrist.

That's the problem Barry, there is a lack of understanding, vintage cinema amplifiers and speakers were mostly of the very highest quality which is why the equipment is so sought after.

Think Western Electric, IPC, RCA, BTH Parmeko, Vitavox, Altec, Westrex, Lancing, Ballentyne, Jensen, Motiograph, Film Industries, Film Sound, Klangfilm, Philips, Bauer, Zeiss Ikon, Kruger, AEI, Pathe Marconi, Rank, AGA Baltic, Osso, Tesla etc.

[walpurgis]

And Vitavox.

Yep. A nice big pair of Altec VOTT speakers will certainly flap yer carpets about

[The Barbarian]

I can't help noticing are you really superman {Clark from Kent} :eyebrows:

[Ali Tait]

:D

[Barry]

That's the problem Barry, there is a lack of understanding, vintage cinema amplifiers and speakers were mostly of the very highest quality which is why the equipment is so sought after.

Think Western Electric, IPC, RCA, BTH Parmeko, Vitavox, Altec, Westrex, Lancing, Ballentyne, Jensen, Motiograph, Film Industries, Film Sound, Klangfilm, Philips, Bauer, Zeiss Ikon, Kruger, AEI, Pathe Marconi, Rank, AGA Baltic, Osso, Tesla etc.

They were state of the art in their day (1930s and 40s) but are hopelessly outperformed by more modern equipment. When did you last visit a cinema and was impressed by the sound quality?

[walpurgis]

They were state of the art in their day (1930s and 40s) but are hopelessly outperformed by more modern equipment. When did you last visit a cinema and was impressed by the sound quality?


Oooh. I reckon you'll get challenged on that Barry. ;)

[BTH K10A]

They were state of the art in their day (1930s and 40s) but are hopelessly outperformed by more modern equipment. When did you last visit a cinema and was impressed by the sound quality?

The last time I was impressed by the sound quality in a cinema was in the late 60's / early 70's but after that they installed the modern equipment that performs better. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately most modern equipment is more form than function and brings nothing new to the party whereas the Cinema equipment of the late 20's through to the late 60's was designed and built to an extremely high specification with little regard to cost and some of it has still not been surpassed in SQ which is why it is so sought after today.

In a similar vein the studio and pro equipment of the 50's through to the late 70's is usually of extremely high build quality and again is still sought after today. The equipment I'm talking about here are the likes of EMT, Neumann, Maihak, Telefunken, Siemens, JBL, Altec, RCA, Westrex, Parmeko, Lyrec etc, i.e. the cost no object kit with superb build quality and sound, not the run of the mill Quad, Garrard, Rogers type kit that was often used in studios as well.

[Ali Tait]

Have to agree.

[Barry]

The last time I was impressed by the sound quality in a cinema was in the late 60's / early 70's but after that they installed the modern equipment that performs better. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately most modern equipment is more form than function and brings nothing new to the party whereas the Cinema equipment of the late 20's through to the late 60's was designed and built to an extremely high specification with little regard to cost and some of it has still not been surpassed in SQ which is why it is so sought after today.

In a similar vein the studio and pro equipment of the 50's through to the late 70's is usually of extremely high build quality and again is still sought after today. The equipment I'm talking about here are the likes of EMT, Neumann, Maihak, Telefunken, Siemens, JBL, Altec, RCA, Westrex, Parmeko, Lyrec etc, i.e. the cost no object kit with superb build quality and sound, not the run of the mill Quad, Garrard, Rogers type kit that was often used in studios as well.

I can’t say I have ever been impressed by the sound in any cinema (I’m thinking of the large ‘picture palaces’, able to house an audience of several hundred). Maybe that is because they use the large horn speakers that you love but I don’t. The sound is not natural: dialogue comes across as ‘larger than life’ and unrealistic. However since the object of one’s attention is the screen, the errors of audio reproduction tend to be lessened. Interestingly, I find the sound quality to be better in the smaller room of a current multi-screen cinema (which can accommodate only a few dozen people), but ironically I find the viewing experience poorer, as one is sat too close to the screen.

Certainly all of the equipment manufacturers you have cited produced the best they could, given the design knowledge at the time. This would apply to professional equipment supplied to cinema, and to recording studios, broadcasting and telecommunications authorities. However I would question your statement that the designs were made with “cost no object”. They were made to the requirements of the end user and had to be made well for the sake of reliability. This expectation and requirement applies to this day for all equipment supplied to professional bodies.

We are going to have to differ over your opinion that audio equipment reached its zenith some time between the ‘30s and the ‘60s. I simply don’t believe that to be true - if it were why then do recording studios and broadcast authorities replace their ‘vintage’ equipment? Could it be that the replacements are better? What I would agree upon is that the skills of the recording engineer and record cutter probably reached their peak between the mid ‘50s and ‘60s. Such skills seem to have been lost if one compares modern with early pressings. Yet as a counter example, I have a live recording of Wilhelm Furtwängler conducting the Berlin Philharmonic that was made in 1942. Given the time of recording, it was most probably recorded on an AEG ‘Magnetofon’ tape machine. So how does it sound? Well for the most part it sounds good, but there are occasions where the sound is distinctly distorted. These occur with the orchestral tuttis. It is difficult to say whether this is due to the limitation of the equipment, the tape, or of the skill of the recording engineer at the time – or maybe the tape itself has deteriorated with time.

To say (correctly) that vintage audio equipment is sought after is a bit of red herring. Most vintage items are collectable and their relative rarity makes them sought after. This applies equally to cars, photographic gear as well as audio gear and records (including 78s). Would you say vintage cars perform better than current designs or are more reliable? For my part, I have an interest in collecting and using vintage photographic lenses. The vast majority of modern photographic lenses have a performance that easily out-do early designs (this is due to the introduction of computer aided design); they have better resolution and contrast (although the two are to some extent mutually exclusive) and have fewer aberrations. The flaws of earlier lenses tend to give photographs taken through them a certain ‘character’, which of course is quite subjective and is relevant when it comes to regarding photography as an art form. If one simply wishes to record an image then modern lenses are better.

I believe collectors of vintage audio equipment do so because they (possibly subconsciously) like the effect of the limitations in the sonic performance. Since listening to music is a highly subjective experience, it is clearly better to use equipment you like the sound of rather than blindly pursuing ultimate fidelity. Sadly, since we are still a very long way from being able to completely reproduce the experience of a live, un-amplified performance, we all have a list of requirements that are important to us and have to be met by the equipment we use. This varies person to person and thus means we all have and use different systems. For you, your requirements are met by using the vintage equipment you cite – for me, my requirements are met using later equipment. Suum cuique.


Anyway after all that you might be interested in this website (if you are not already aware of it): http://www.klangfilm.org/index.html, especially the images of equipment belonging to a Japanese music lover. I don’t envy him for any of his vintage equipment (save perhaps his collection of early Ortofon and EMT cartridges), but I most certainly do envy his record collection!

[Macca]

I find the old cinema and studio gear facinating but I don't have anything like the money required to become an enthusiast in that specific area.

The 1970s are too long ago for me to comment on Cinema sound quality. Certainly going to the pictures was far more of an experience then than it was now (I'm talking about the old Liverpool Odeon and the ABC with their enourmous multi-level auditoriums). The screen was enourmous and although there was no surround sound there were large speakers built in right along the base of the screen.

I don't ever remember struggling to hear the dialogue. Action scenes would be at teriffic spl. No health and safety nonsense back then. If we could still hear ourselves think on the way out we demanded our ten bob back ;)

[Marco]

Hi Barry,

That’s both an interesting and somewhat unusual post for you, as a fan/collector of vintage equipment. However, I find myself siding mainly with Andy’s sentiments, although I am no expert on vintage cinema equipment.


I can’t say I have ever been impressed by the sound in any cinema (I’m thinking of the large ‘picture palaces’, able to house an audience of several hundred). Maybe that is because they use the large horn speakers that you love but I don’t. The sound is not natural: dialogue comes across as ‘larger than life’ and unrealistic.


I know where you’re coming from, as horn loudspeakers can sound quite coloured, but set up properly and done right (which so often when one hears them these days, they aren’t), reproducing material that plays to their strengths, they can sound stunning, as in shockingly vivid and lifelike, making all other speakers sound distinctly ‘limp’, soft and rolled-off.

Have a listen to this YouTube clip, showing a Western Electric horn system, from 1926, playing ‘Don Carlo, O Don Fatale’, by Maria Callas. Even via the MP3 limitations of YouTube, I think it sounds superb - goodness knows how much better it was listening in situ (although I guess one needs to be a fan of opera):


eFYYi6tNmi0


There is a vivacity, dynamic alacrity, expansiveness, scale and realism to the sound that I’ve never heard from any modern loudspeakers, or even the majority of vintage ones, and I include my Tannoys (and your Quads) in that, so I know exactly where Andy is coming from. I also attend lots of live classical concerts, and the sound produced by that system gets it very right in so many ways, which no modern loudspeaker system I’ve heard is anywhere near capable of producing.


We are going to have to differ over your opinion that audio equipment reached its zenith some time between the ‘30s and the ‘60s. I simply don’t believe that to be true - if it were why then do recording studios and broadcast authorities replace their ‘vintage’ equipment? Could it be that the replacements are better?


In most cases, the equipment used today in recording studios and broadcast authorities has become victim to current fashion, technology and convenience, as much as it has in home audio systems. Therefore ‘better’ it may be in that respect, but I would strongly disagree that is the case when it comes to achieving the highest standards of sound quality.

One only has to observe the ever-lowering bit-rates of broadcast quality on digital radio these days to see where the BBC’s priorities lie now, and if one compares the general standards of audio quality on radio broadcasts now with when the likes of EMT and SP10 turntables were used to play vinyl over the airwaves, the tinny cacophony heard on the radio today is an affront to the standards that once were, during the 60s, 70s and even into the early 80s, before studios and broadcasting houses sold off their (very high-quality) analogue equipment, which in most cases was vastly superior, in terms of its audio performance, to what is used in such places today.


Would you say vintage cars perform better than current designs or are more reliable?


They’re not more reliable, or even safer, but it all depends on what you mean by “perform”.

The best vintage cars certainly were designed with more individual panache/flair, and as such have rather more ‘soul’, thus are often MUCH more fun to drive than their modern counterparts. I guess it depends on what you use a car for, and whether you’re a ‘driver’ or someone who sees a car simply as a means from getting from A to B. In that respect, I like driving something that ignites my senses/stirs my soul, not cocoons me in a mundane safety cage, reliable or not! ;)


For my part, I have an interest in collecting and using vintage photographic lenses. The vast majority of modern photographic lenses have a performance that easily out-do early designs (this is due to the introduction of computer aided design); they have better resolution and contrast (although the two are to some extent mutually exclusive) and have fewer aberrations. The flaws of earlier lenses tend to give photographs taken through them a certain ‘character’, which of course is quite subjective and is relevant when it comes to regarding photography as an art form. If one simply wishes to record an image then modern lenses are better.


I strongly disagree, but that’s a discussion for another thread.


I believe collectors of vintage audio equipment do so because they (possibly subconsciously) like the effect of the limitations in the sonic performance….


Whoa! :eek: Is that why you collect it? If so, speak for yourself. It certainly is not why I use the vintage kit that I’ve got in my system - far from it!! :nono:

I have to say that’s a very strange comment for you to make, given what I thought I knew about you and your stance previously on these matters :scratch:

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

The Science museum recently recreated the Denman horn, Britains contributuion to early high fidelity. The driver is a Western Electric 555 so not truly full range but even so the quality of sound produced was astonishing. See the comment of some young students from 1m 40 secs on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yQ2IQ2b_YE

[BTH K10A]

:eyebrows:
I can't help noticing are you really superman {Clark from Kent}

Yes :eyebrows: and are you are Lobby Lud and I claim my five pounds :D

[walpurgis]

The Science museum recently recreated the Denman horn, Britains contributuion to early high fidelity. The driver is a Western Electric 555 so not truly full range but even so the quality of sound produced was astonishing.

Yes. You only have to hear a fine acoustic gramophone with large horn, to realise that good sound quality is not new by any means.

[Barry]

That YouTube clip exemplifies precisely what I dislike about horn speakers: dynamic, vivid and having a good sense of scale, yes - but with that horrible nasal effect that sounds at times as if Maria Callas is herself singing through a horn.

I could have expressed myself better regarding vintage audio equipment. By 'vintage' I was referring to that of the 1930s and '40s. Loudspeakers of this period definitely have sonic limitations and flaws, which give them character. And it is this character that attracts and interests users, just as the optical character of vintage photographic lenses interest me. No audio component is perfect: they all have flaws and it is neccessary to choose audio components wherein the strengths align with what is important to you, and the flaws, weaknesses or failings can be tolerated for the strengths. Some flaws are more acceptable than others: even-order harmonic distortion is more acceptable to the ear than odd-order harmonic distortion. That was what I was trying to say about "liking the effects of the sonic limitations". It may be described as having 'soul' or 'expression' or 'character'.

My acquisition of (later) vintage equipment (of the '50s and '60s, and early '70s) is largely because I'm technically interested in their design and dare I say it, the ideosyncracies of their audio performance. All were well regarded in their day (Quad 57s, Radford STA power amplifiers and ADC, Decca, Ortofon, Denon and EMT cartridges) but in most instances their modern counterparts IMHO display noticable improvements.

[Marco]

That YouTube clip exemplifies precisely what I dislike about horn speakers: dynamic, vivid and having a good sense of scale, yes - but with that horrible nasal effect that sounds at times as if Maria Callas is herself singing through a horn.


I guess it’s what your ears ‘tune into’ most, as for me, the “horrible nasal effect” was completely outweighed by all the other things you mention, to create a sound, which even via the significant sonic limitations of YouTube, captured the very essence, ‘feel’ and emotion of a live classical musical performance.

At the end, I had goosebumps, and just like the assembled audience at the show, wanted to stand up and clap!! :)


I could have expressed myself better regarding vintage audio equipment. By 'vintage' I was referring to that of the 1930s and '40s. Loudspeakers of this period definitely have sonic limitations and flaws, which give them character.


Ah, I see what you mean now. Trouble is, you never said that! ;)


Some flaws are more acceptable than others: even-order harmonic distortion is more acceptable to the ear than odd-order harmonic distortion. That was what I was trying to say about "liking the effects of the sonic limitations". It may be described as having 'soul' or 'expression' or 'character’.


I see where you’re coming from, but that’s not what I mean by ‘soul’. I consider it a very real phenomenon, inherent in and intrinsic to lifelike sounding and believable music. It is not artifice, in the way you describe. In my experience, some equipment succeeds in capturing it from music recordings, and some doesn’t.


My acquisition of (later) vintage equipment (of the '50s and '60s, and early '70s) is largely because I'm technically interested in their design and dare I say it, the ideosyncracies of their audio performance. All were well regarded in their day (Quad 57s, Radford STA power amplifiers and ADC, Decca, Ortofon, Denon and EMT cartridges) but in most instances their modern counterparts IMHO display noticable improvements.

Fair enough, but I disagree, and can usually demonstrate it.

The *only* reason I use the vintage equipment I do is because I consider it, sonically, to be fundamentally superior to anything new that I can buy today. Furthermore, the equipment in question was produced WAY before my time, so nostalgia, or even technical curiosity, plays no part in my attraction to it. My owning it is a purely sound quality/sonic performance decision.

The fact is, if I thought I could buy modern kit which was better in that respect, I’d do so. However, each to his or her own :cool:

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

Have a listen to this YouTube clip, showing a Western Electric horn system, from 1926, playing ‘Don Carlo, O Don Fatale’, by Maria Callas. Even via the MP3 limitations of YouTube, I think it sounds superb - goodness knows how much better it was listening in situ (although I guess one needs to be a fan of opera):



Marco.

If opera isn't your thing how about some Led Zep?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAhaKcnfBig

[Marco]

:guitar: :hairmetal: :hairmetal: :fingers: :fingers: :hairmetal: :hairmetal: :guitar:

Marco.

[The Barbarian]

you lot are living in cloud cuckoo land. since you lot seem to have endless cash on tap what is stopping yer? ;) cant kid the old barbarian

[Marco]

You’re not referring to me, dude, I hope?

Marco.

[Marco]

Don’t really know what you’re getting at…. :scratch:

Marco.

[The Barbarian]

;)

[Marco]

PM me and spit it out! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

Yes. You only have to hear a fine acoustic gramophone with large horn, to realise that good sound quality is not new by any means.

Very true, I have the largest version of the Decca cabinet gramophones, not in the league of an HMV 203 but it still astonishes me just how good it sounds.

The best I've heard is an EMG gramophone that had a huge papier mache horn. A friend had inherited it and a dealer paid him a little over £10k for it back in 2001. He apparantly had a queue of people in the far east wanting one.

[BTH K10A]

you lot are living in cloud cuckoo land. since you lot seem to have endless cash on tap what is stopping yer? ;) cant kid the old barbarian

Nothing really Andre, only the scarecity of the kit, and, as and when I do find something interesting, I usually buy it. Fortunately it can often doesn't cost vey much unless of course you buy from a dealer.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

No audio component is perfect: they all have flaws and it is neccessary to choose audio components wherein the strengths align with what is important to you, and the flaws, weaknesses or failings can be tolerated for the strengths. Some flaws are more acceptable than others: even-order harmonic distortion is more acceptable to the ear than odd-order harmonic distortion. That was what I was trying to say about "liking the effects of the sonic limitations". It may be described as having 'soul' or 'expression' or 'character'.

My acquisition of (later) vintage equipment (of the '50s and '60s, and early '70s) is largely because I'm technically interested in their design and dare I say it, the ideosyncracies of their audio performance. All were well regarded in their day (Quad 57s, Radford STA power amplifiers and ADC, Decca, Ortofon, Denon and EMT cartridges) but in most instances their modern counterparts IMHO display noticable improvements.

Nicely said Barry particularly in the context of vintage equipment. There is of course the opportunity of a bit of both
vintage and modern by updating components that need updating in vintage equipment which many of us totally enjoy.
In so doing, restoring how that equipment should sound today. I also have Quad 57's a stacked pair.
The lower pair are 1969 and the top 1961 powered by 2x Quad 306, or 303 - both are very nice indeed.

[Marco]

There is of course the opportunity of a bit of both vintage and modern by updating components that need updating in vintage equipment which many of us totally enjoy. In so doing, restoring how that equipment should sound today.

That, for me, Chris, is where it’s at! :thumbsup:

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1622_zpswzwpaq7c.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1622_zpswzwpaq7c.jpg.html)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1624_zps63n6eey8.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1624_zps63n6eey8.jpg.html)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1538_zpsp6vnezh5.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1538_zpsp6vnezh5.jpg.html)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1539_zpsyj4x8zkw.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1539_zpsyj4x8zkw.jpg.html)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1540_zpsyiqal1of.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1540_zpsyiqal1of.jpg.html)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1554_zpskuid8n7l.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1554_zpskuid8n7l.jpg.html)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1553_zps2bdnlrvi.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1553_zps2bdnlrvi.jpg.html)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1550_zpsish6h5if.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1550_zpsish6h5if.jpg.html)

[Marco]

Whoa… Are they going in the bedroom system, Andy? :D

Marco.

[The Barbarian]

I see you got proper radiators in you house Andy :)

[BTH K10A]

Not exactly, I'm resurecting an old project that stalled for a bit of fum

I have a number of options with bass drivers, horns and crossovers so I think I will probably have a bass cabinet built along the lines of my 2326A's for the 2080's and then I can play around with the various horn and crossover combos. I might add a tweeter if I can find the pair I put in a nice safe place some time ago.

[BTH K10A]

I see you got proper radiators in you house Andy :)

Yep, got 21 of them. Those along with 9 fireplaces keeps it nice and snug on the cold nights :)

[The Barbarian]

The modern tinky tonky pressed steel radiators are crap imho compared to those old Cast Iron jobbies.

[BTH K10A]

The cats seem to think so

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0387_zpsbbtzhzec.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_0387_zpsbbtzhzec.jpg.html)

[BTH K10A]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1540_zpsvzhivylz.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1540_zpsvzhivylz.jpg.html)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1664_zpslgktvxuw.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1664_zpslgktvxuw.jpg.html)

[Marco]

Don't get the purpose of that post, mate... :scratch:

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

Don't get the purpose of that post, mate... :scratch:

Marco.

Very strange, I thought I had deleted it and not submitted as it was meant to be a gallery section post. Gave up in the end as I couldn't find my old gallery thread

Was just a little about the bass drivers I've been trying with my JBL 2446's on Martin horns. Delete it if you want.

[Marco]

Lol - there's no big issue. It's just I was wondering what was going through your head when you posted it! :D

Marco.