View Full Version : Gator aid. Or how to get the most from your Gator.
StanleyB
08-01-2011, 16:50
Yes folks, it's that time of the year when I get some, at first thought, strange email request that on further investigations turn out to be useful. In this case it has been about the Gator. I'll skip the preliminaries and go straight to the finals :).
Non-headphone users who own or are looking at a Caiman/Gator combination:
The choice of opamp is unimportant. So you can stick one of the LM4562 from the original PCB in there.
Headphone users with Caiman & Gator:
The AD826 wins on all accounts so far. No messing about with special adapters (i.e. THS4032 ) or bending pins ( i.e. LM4562HA).
Non-headphone users with TC-7520 & Gator:
The original NE5532 is good enough in the headphone slot.
Headphone users with TC-7520 & Gator:
The Caiman PSU or any good 15V PSU like the linear one from Maplin is a must.
Opamp choice, after a lot of experimentation, is the LM4562NA as used in the standard Caiman. I have tried things like the AD826 and THS4032 instead, but the TC-7520 sounded far too dark and bass heavy. Good for getting my D7000 cans to rattle my skull when fed with some bass tracks, but Norah Jones sounded drunk and randy. I prefer a more even handed sound...
If you must have more extended bass (down to about 5Hz on my scope :eek:), on the Gator there are two sets of empty components holes. It's obvious they are for capacitors. You can try a set of 100uF or even 220uF non-polarized caps. Don't use polarized caps.
Swapping out the caps on the Gator for a different type:
DON'T. The first and only person to have tried that has had to acquire a new Gator PCB.
Changing the gain on line out and headphones:
I'll come back to that at a later stage if there are sufficient interest. The current output levels are designed to be within the CE limits, but the line and headphone output especially can be adjusted for a different optimum gain setting, depending on the impedance of your headphones. I use one Gator set up for my D7000 and K701, and a different Gator set up for my HD650 and HD800. But not everyone would need to be so pedantic as me.
I can only speak for myself but I prefer Norah Jones drunk and randy:eyebrows:
Personally I like the AD826 at the moment with the 7520, but I'm using Grado 325is with G cush pads which aren't very dark sounding anyway and bring over a lot of detail. LM4562HA, AD826, and OPA2107 are my favourites. The OPA2107 smears detail a little too much even though it sounds nice. LM4562HA can be a bit bright in the highs at times but can sound very deep and wide with good bass. AD826 is the king of detail but the bass can sound a little lacking in warmth at times, and can show up some harshness on recordings, but it's very clear.
I'm still using the 12V PSU though so I want to upgrade. I'll probably plump for the maplin one but I'm not sure which connector I need into the DAC or whether I really want a bench supply like I'm in a lab. :scratch:
StanleyB
09-01-2011, 07:49
Perhaps I should do an upgrade kit for the TC-7520, comprising of the Gator, opamp, and Caiman power supply?
Hmm what is the going rate for the Caiman power supply anyway Stan?
One of the things that an old mate of mine showed me decades ago is how important "infra bass" can be if dealt with carefully, adding realism to the soundstage. Leading on from this, I think it would be a good idea to take the Gator response as near to DC as possible, as long as this doesn't cost in terms of potential instabilities or distortions.
HighFidelityGuy
12-01-2011, 11:11
Hi Stan. On the subject of the bass extension mod, does the quality of the capacitors matter much? Also, what difference does the value of the cap make? Is it a case of the higher the value the lower the bass? Cheers.
EDIT: Also, I've just noticed that the spaces for these caps are over on the headphone side of the board. Is this mod just for the headphone output or for everything? Cheers.
kininigin
12-01-2011, 16:37
Perhaps I should do an upgrade kit for the TC-7520, comprising of the Gator, opamp, and Caiman power supply?
i would be interested in an option like this,maybe with dac chip upgrade as well.Would this be something you could do stan?
Perhaps I should do an upgrade kit for the TC-7520, comprising of the Gator, opamp, and Caiman power supply?
I thought you already did!!
I must say that this option is what I have and it sounds absolutly fantastic.
Thanks to Stan for suggesting this upgrade for me, I'm well chuffed with it.:cool:
Paul
StanleyB
12-01-2011, 19:57
Hi Stan. On the subject of the bass extension mod, does the quality of the capacitors matter much? Also, what difference does the value of the cap make? Is it a case of the higher the value the lower the bass?
I have used 100uF and 220uF. They have to be non-polarized and of around 16 to 25V. You might to place them at a 90 degree angle so that they can fit.
Also, I've just noticed that the spaces for these caps are over on the headphone side of the board. Is this mod just for the headphone output or for everything? Cheers.
The mod is only for the headphone.
StanleyB
12-01-2011, 20:00
i would be interested in an option like this,maybe with dac chip upgrade as well.Would this be something you could do stan?
I don't do the DAC chip upgrade any more. But Tirna Electonics can help you out.
kininigin
12-01-2011, 20:59
you have p.m. stan
magiccarpetride
12-01-2011, 23:31
Perhaps I should do an upgrade kit for the TC-7520, comprising of the Gator, opamp, and Caiman power supply?
Is that a Caiman eyeball or a Gator eyeball on your avatar, Stan?
StanleyB
13-01-2011, 07:10
Is that a Caiman eyeball or a Gator eyeball on your avatar, Stan?
A caiman:).
HighFidelityGuy
13-01-2011, 10:55
I have used 100uF and 220uF. They have to be non-polarized and of around 16 to 25V. You might to place them at a 90 degree angle so that they can fit.
The mod is only for the headphone.
Ah, I'm glad I asked. I rarely use headphones at home so I'll give this a miss for now. Cheers.
kininigin
17-01-2011, 23:35
just like to thank stan for a quick and efficient service.Great product,very happy :)
just like to thank stan for a quick and efficient service.Great product,very happy :)
I'll second that... :clap:
Canetoad
18-01-2011, 08:37
I just received a copy of the remastered Band on the Run album and played it through the Gatorized Caiman and Squeezebox Touch and it sounded amazing! I have some of the songs on vinyl and the SB/Caiman sounded better. I think the production on the re-release is part of the reason but I'm sure that the Caiman is definitely helping as well. I'm very pleased with how mine sounds now.:)
Hello AOS members :)
I'm using Caiman for about a year now and Gatorized Caiman for about 2 weeks.
Although this is wonderful device, after successful upgrade with Gator I
started looking around what other mods are available :)
I'm utilizing both line and headphone output (HD800 with AD826 in Gator) so I'm interested in
upgrades of both sections.
Here is a list of what mods I have found and assume could be applied also to Gatored Caiman:
1. Gator pcb board - replacement of 47nF capacitors with 68nF WIMAs
2. Caiman board: Elna Silmic II Caps + MuRata Regs
Is there anything else available I've forgot to mention? Maybe pecific tweaks for HD800 / Gator?
Tomas
The Grand Wazoo
28-01-2011, 00:23
Hi Tomas,
Welcome to The Art of Sound!
Would you mind stopping by the Welcome (http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=15)section and introducing yourself to the folks here? It would be great to know a bit more about you, your equipment and the music you like.
Cheers
StanleyB
28-01-2011, 08:22
1. Gator pcb board - replacement of 47nF capacitors with 68nF WIMAs
The HD800 is quite sensitive to cap mods. The 68nF might make the bass thinner. I would stick to the 47nF value.
...
Headphone users with Caiman & Gator:
The AD826 wins on all accounts so far. No messing about with special adapters (i.e. THS4032 ) or bending pins ( i.e. LM4562HA).
Does anyone know where I can purchase a couple of suitable type AD826 in the UK?
... Changing the gain on line out and headphones:
I'll come back to that at a later stage if there are sufficient interest. The current output levels are designed to be within the CE limits, but the line and headphone output especially can be adjusted for a different optimum gain setting, depending on the impedance of your headphones. ...
I'd like to tender my interest. I have two Camians - one with a K701 and the other with a DT990Pro and I'd love to fine-tune the gain for each.
StanleyB
29-01-2011, 06:43
Does anyone know where I can purchase a couple of suitable type AD826 in the UK?
I have the AD826 in stock and can ship the Gator with them upon request:).
I have the AD826 in stock and can ship the Gator with them upon request:).
OK - have sent an email to ask for two AD826 to be added to the current order.
Thanks
I've modded my Caiman with Murata regs and Elna Silmic caps two days ago.
After first scary moments with random clicks/pops (like from dirty vinyl) in right speaker i found out that optical connector (toslink-3,5mm jack) at Toslink cable was the problem - replacement of connector fixed the issue:)
On the other day I've noticed that listening to quiet music passages at considerably high volume levels reveals strange humming/squeaking tone at about 964 Hz . I found this tone on headphone signal output an also on fixed line signal output.
I've checked all work I've done during the mod and also checked if there is no lint from freshly soldered regs & caps - but found nothing important.
Then I tried to replace Gator module with original Caiman module and 964Hz humming disappeared. I've then also tried to use other opamp in Gator but also with original Caiman opamp humming was still there.
I've tried also different inputs (toslink from imac, spdif for Nad dvd player) - no change.
Tone frequency is bit different on 96kHz sample rate sources as on 44.1kHz .
I'm not sure what's causing this tone on background but surely would like to get rid of it as I like Gators sound much and would not like to go back to original Caiman module.
Here is picture analysis (recorded 24bit@96kHz with macbookpro) of very quiet pink noise i've created for testing purposes in audacity:
http://localhost.sk/dropzone/Screen%20shot%202011-02-03%20at%203.36.37%20PM.png
On request I can share wav/flac recording of pink noise output of my gator with this anomaly recorded.
My thoughts:
1. I've broken something during modding, but then I can't understand why the sound is there only with Gator?
2. This is normal "feature" of too revealing Gator and I just haven't noticed it before. I mean revealing weakness of Wolfson DAC or so.. Remember it's possible to hear it only on very high volume levels..
Any ideas?
Stratmangler
04-02-2011, 01:14
Any chance of resizing that image ?
The script is far too wide as a result of that image being too large, and most folks would just pass your question over, just as I have done.
Thanks in advance......
Any chance of resizing that image ?
The script is far too wide as a result of that image being too large, and most folks would just pass your question over, just as I have done.
Thanks in advance......
Hi Chris I've just resized the image, thanks for the notice. I hope this will encourage people to help me out of my troubles :)
Original image still can be found here:
http://localhost.sk/dropzone/Screen%20shot%202011-02-03%20at%203.36.37%20PM.orig.png
Hi Maniac,
I came accross the same troubles few weeks ago when modding my caiman.
I both use passive output and headphones output.
I upgraded the dac to murata regs + elna caps.
There was no problem with standard opamps used for standard module.
but as soon I upgraded to burson audio discrete opamp for heaphones output, I got a horrible "eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" sound at high volume, I could easily hear at mid-volume.
I first tought it was the burson generating this noise, but I tried to turn the volume up with my loudspeakers and I has the same high pitch noise.
I read the murata 7805SR-C datasheet and saw:
Applications in which 78SR regulators are located more than 24 inches (61cm) from the input power supply should include an external 47uF/50V (or greater) aluminum electrolytic capacitor, connected as close as possible to the regulator’s +Vin and GND terminals (pins 1 and 2).
It's the case since I made a -15V/0V/15V linear regulated power supply, and the cord is 70 cm long.
The reg was actually ringing! As soon I put a 330µf cap between V input and ground, the noise stopped. I've not detected any troubles with the 7812SR-C yet, but if any, the fix would probably be the same.
I'm not sure it is the same issue, but I hope this will help you.
Anthony
It's the case since I made a -15V/0V/15V linear regulated power supply, and the cord is 20 cm long.
The reg was actually ringing! As soon I put a 330µf cap between V input and ground, the noise stopped. I've not detected any troubles with the 7812SR-C yet, but if any, the fix would probably be the same.
I'm not sure it is the same issue, but I hope this will help you.
Anthony
Hi Anthony, thanks for your answer in 1st place.
I would like to clarify few details - in Murata 7805 datasheet they say more than 60cm and you have only 20cm long cable so I'm quite surprised this was the case.
On other hand when i was trying to touch different parts on PCB it was exactly the muratas which changed a bit a pitch of background tone so it would make sense that they are responsible for the tone as such. I'm using standard PSU which came with Caiman.
May I ask what 330µf cap have you used (max voltage / temperature) and how did you soldered it? Like directly soldering it to Muratas pin, or some other way? Maybe you have photo saved somewhere? :)
And my last question - how would you describe benefit of having Burson's hd audio discrete opamp instead of originally fitted opamp for headphone stage? I was thinking about exactly the same but Stan did not reccomended that :) BTW i believe that you was not able to fit Burson into Caiman so you left upper lid of Caiman open?
Thanks, maniac
My mistake, it's 70 cm long, corrected in my previous post (I definitly have to read my posts before sending them). :doh:
I soldered a spare 330uF elna silmic II 25V ( but 16V will be fine), soldered directly the first reg pin and ground of the output cap. I must confess I'm not sure it is the root cause of the problem, as I am not a electronics expert, but adding this cap solved the problem for me.
Here is a pic:
http://free0.hiboox.com/vignettes/0511/0096f914dac67b9dd68b33ce09e29f9f.jpg (http://www.hiboox.fr/go/images/image-perso/img00135-20110204-1218,0096f914dac67b9dd68b33ce09e29f9f.jpg.html)
For the burson, I think M. Beresford didnt recommand using bursons in its dac because they need -15/+15 power supply to work properly. I made a separate PS for it, that's why I use it in the caiman. The Burson is plugged in the socket using a bent extension, so the lid is closed. It was actually used in my previous dac, and I couldn't stand not using it in the beresford.
Here is a pic:
http://free0.hiboox.com/vignettes/0511/b574c413a974b97ede19742e799f4684.jpg (http://www.hiboox.fr/go/images/image-perso/img00134-20110204-1217,b574c413a974b97ede19742e799f4684.jpg.html)
If you tried the passive output mod, I would say that the burson as headphone opmap brings the headphones output to nearly the same level of truth / dynamics / impact / lifelike reproduction, but that's just my perception trough my own ears
Anthony
Just check the voltage at each Murata poition as you need a voltage differential through the regulator. The 5v one should be fine but just check the 12v one. If you only have 12v to it and 12v out it may cause the noise you are hearing.
Regards
Just check the voltage at each Murata poition as you need a voltage differential through the regulator. The 5v one should be fine but just check the 12v one. If you only have 12v to it and 12v out it may cause the noise you are hearing.
Regards
Hi chrism, you mean during caiman powered up and fed with signal to use the voltmeter to measure voltages between GND and Vin and then between GND and Vout, right? I'll do that this afternoon, thank you!
http://localhost.sk/dropzone/Screen%20shot%202011-02-04%20at%2012.48.17.png
For the burson, I think M. Beresford didnt recommand using bursons in its dac because they need -15/+15 power supply to work properly. I made a separate PS for it, that's why I use it in the caiman. The Burson is plugged in the socket using a bent extension, so the lid is closed. It was actually used in my previous dac, and I couldn't stand not using it in the beresford.
If you tried the passive output mod, I would say that the burson as headphone opmap brings the headphones output to nearly the same level of truth / dynamics / impact / lifelike reproduction, but that's just my perception trough my own ears
Anthony
Hi Anthony thank you!
I can see that you are using original module, just the headphone opamp replaced wit Burson. With this board and standard opamp I'm not hearing the background tone. I can hear it only with Gator module http://www.beresford.me/products/GatorEU.html .
I'll first try to measure voltage on regs as suggested by chrism then start to think about shortening power cable or adding 330uF cap to murata.
Hi Anthony thank you!
I can see that you are using original module, just the headphone opamp replaced wit Burson. With this board and standard opamp I'm not hearing the background tone. I can hear it only with Gator module http://www.beresford.me/products/GatorEU.html .
I'll first try to measure voltage on regs as suggested by chrism then start to think about shortening power cable or adding 330uF cap to murata.
Sorry to appear to be clever but take care when touching the pins with the multimeter probes - don't short anything or you will be really cross with me!
I had a strange noise with my Caiman when changing PSU's as the voltage was not high enough into the 12v Murata (I only had about 13v in to it).
This is one of the reasons why I went for two PSU's and scrapped the internal regs completely but that's another story.
Regards
Sorry to appear to be clever but take care when touching the pins with the multimeter probes - don't short anything or you will be really cross with me!
I had a strange noise with my Caiman when changing PSU's as the voltage was not high enough into the 12v Murata (I only had about 13v in to it).
This is one of the reasons why I went for two PSU's and scrapped the internal regs completely but that's another story.
Regards
Thanks for notice - this was really delicate task to not shorten anything :)
Here are my measurements:
12V reg: input=14.76V output=11.98V
5V reg: input=14.75V output=5.00V
Should be 14.76V on 12V input be enough? I'm not quite sure if 11.98V on output is OK, but could be also my cheapo multimeter not measuring 100% correct..
The measurements are spot on so this is not the cause of the problem. I must say though in general that the Murata 12v data sheet infers that a little more headroom on the input is desirable.
I will have another think about what to test next.
Regards
My mistake, it's 70 cm long, corrected in my previous post (I definitly have to read my posts before sending them). :doh:
I soldered a spare 330uF elna silmic II 25V ( but 16V will be fine), soldered directly the first reg pin and ground of the output cap. I must confess I'm not sure it is the root cause of the problem, as I am not a electronics expert, but adding this cap solved the problem for me.
As I have no 330uF caps I've just applied 220uF 25V caps to both 5V and 12V regs because applying to just either one did not removed noise enough.
Now the 964Hz noise is nearly completely removed as also can be seen on this recording of pink noise I've made after applying the caps.
http://localhost.sk/dropzone/Screen%20shot%202011-02-04%20at%205.49.09%20PM.png
Now I would be really interested if people with Gator and Murata regs with default caiman power supply have the same issue as I had :)
Photo with caps on Muratas installed:
http://localhost.sk/dropzone/IMG_0433.jpg
One thing telling me that this is just a workaround and not really solved is that now when listening to headphones with volume know on VERY low level i can hear quite loud high frequency tone in headphones. But i'm not listening to headphones on such very low volume levels, so not a big deal for me.
One thing telling me that this is just a workaround and not really solved is that now when listening to headphones with volume know on VERY low level i can hear quite loud high frequency tone in headphones. But i'm not listening to headphones on such very low volume levels, so not a big deal for me.
Glad It worked for you. I would be surprised if we were only two having had this issue.
I think the low volume noise is an other issue, not linked to the murata. I actually met the same noise with a 32ohms generic headphone, but it has completely disappeared with my 62ohms K701, so I didn't go further.
Anthony
Stan, any idea on the hiss issues?
StanleyB
08-02-2011, 12:30
Stan, any idea on the hiss issues?
If you have a hiss issue, email me and we'll go through it :). In which thread did you mention that you had a hiss?
My report in regards to my issue described above (quiet hiss about at 900hz) which i've got after applying Muratas which I had then partially fixed by applying 220uF caps .
Today I've shortened power cable between original Caiman PSU to Caiman to about 40cm (15,7") and removed 220uF caps from Muratas. My hiss issue is completely back so there is something weird on it as shortening path between PSU and Muratas should be solution instead of caps workaround I've done before.
I'll let it in this state until cheapest laboratory linear PSU will arrive and i'll test it with this PSU. If this linear PSU will not help I think unfortunately will have to go back to caps on Muratas..
And probably will xperiment with different caps values as 220uF did not removed the hiss completely.
chapter three
18-02-2011, 20:57
Just a quick question, I hope this isn't thread crapping ..
I've got a Caiman/Gator with no other mods. What benefits would I get from fitting Elna, Muratas and rubycons etc?
I'd ask Tirna to do the work. I use a Maplin linear supply tweaked to 15v as mentioned on here.
I'd like a bit more bass weight from the dac. Would the modifications I'm considering help?
StanleyB
19-02-2011, 09:42
It would help, but you'll need to add the Gator board for the final finish.
Tirna is actually trying out the Gator board to see if they can offer a Gator fitting service with their other upgrades. It would save on the cost of shipment etc. in some cases.
StanleyB
21-02-2011, 20:36
The standard Gator is designed to be all things to all headphones, but I left some blank component spaces in the PCB so that the Gator can be tuned to various cans.
The following is a tune up for my K701. The added caps in the middle next to the 22nF ( 47nF in the standard board) are 220pF. So you need 2 x 22nF and 2 x 220pF. It gives the K701 a lot more weight and body.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/aos/Gatorbass.jpg
StanleyB
25-02-2011, 09:33
The Gator headphone output has been set to a level that can cope with a wide range of headphone impedances. However, cans like the HD600/650/800 and some Beyer Dynamics versions with their 300 or even 600 Ohms impedance are able to take advantage of an up to now undocumented feature of the Gator PCB.
The resistors marked with a red circle are 42K instead of the standard 27K fitted to the Gator. You could even go up to 56K but sound clipping will occur at high volume levels. Mind you, at that sort of level you are likely to go deaf very quickly.
This mod is for educational purposes and information only. You should not listen to your headphones at these sort of levels since the headphones will be banging against your skull from the extreme air movements induced by the transducers. And you can go deaf on top of it.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/aos/hop.jpg
This mod is for educational purposes and information only. You should not listen to your headphones at these sort of levels since the headphones will be banging against your skull from the extreme air movements induced by the transducers. And you can go deaf on top of it.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/aos/hop.jpg
Hi Stan, many thanks for sharing, my questions:
1. What are the benefits of this mod? Is it only having my hd800 headphones playing louder?
2. marked resistors on your photo are 42kOhm ? I'm not sure if i'm reading the strips correctly but I think it's some think else than 42kOhm (412*10 at 1%) ?
3. it wattage of resistor important, or I can safe use let's say 1Watt resistor?
Sorry for lame questions, I'm still re-learning what i've learened 15 years ago :)
Thanks,
Tomas
StanleyB
25-02-2011, 10:36
1. As indicated: it is to increase the output level. If you want other benefits as well you'll have to fit the corresponding mod if and when available. So if you want more bass drive, then look at the K701 mod since the HD800 is just as demanding as the K701 before they put out any decent amount of bass.
2. I wrote 42K and that is what should be fitted :). I personally use a range of resistor E values for R&D, but which are not normally on sale in Maplin etc. So I mention the nearest equivalent that you can readily source and buy.
3. Use the same size as in the picture if you want to make sure that it fits. 1W might be a bit longer. 0.4W would be about right in size.
My report in regards to my issue described above (quiet hiss about at 900hz) which i've got after applying Muratas which I had then partially fixed by applying 220uF caps .
Today I've shortened power cable between original Caiman PSU to Caiman to about 40cm (15,7") and removed 220uF caps from Muratas. My hiss issue is completely back so there is something weird on it as shortening path between PSU and Muratas should be solution instead of caps workaround I've done before.
I'll let it in this state until cheapest laboratory linear PSU will arrive and i'll test it with this PSU. If this linear PSU will not help I think unfortunately will have to go back to caps on Muratas..
And probably will xperiment with different caps values as 220uF did not removed the hiss completely.
OK, so some news here. Laboratoty PSU HY1503D (http://localhost.sk/dropzone/linear-psu-maniac.jpg)</a> arrived (priced at 50 eur) with parametes defined as:
Source Effect (Line regulation): CV <= 0.01% +1mV CC <= 0.2% +1mA
Loading Effect (Load regulation): CV <= 0.01% +3mV CC <= 0.2% +3mA
Ripple and noise: CV <= 0.5mV V r.m.s. CC <= 3mA r.m.s.
(If i'm reading correct it's quite fine in the specs. for the Caiman)
As usual I have some news:
Bad news - Hum/hiss at about 900Hz I described few times in this thread is still there (from the time i've upgraded to Muratas and Elna)
Good news - I'm able to get rid of the hum/hiss by setting specific voltage:
- lower than 13V
- exactly 13.3V or 13.4V (but seems not to be stable here - hum/hiss comes back sometimes, so i go for 12.9V at the moment)
Findings:
- I have not seen any difference in relation of length of power cable (either original Caiman PSU nor Linear supply) to my hiss issue.
- I did not hear any difference on quality of sound reproduction on voltages lower than 15V (12 to 15V).
So I'm now powering Caiman with 12.9V to avoid my hiss issue, unfortunately this is sometime (with Caiman not yet "warmed-up") causing my source input on Caiman returning back to USB (I'm now using Coax1 for SB Touch). I understand that Caiman is designed for 15V but for the moment I rather wait a bit to warm-up Caiman until I can start listening than to listen to constant hiss on the background..
As have some new facts about behavior of this issue (apparently related to Caiman input voltage) I would like to ask if someone have a clue what could be the source of my 900Hz hiss? Does this seems like fried Muratas when I was modding the Gatorized Caiman?
The frequency is slightly going up and down when slowly regulating the voltage on PSU or changing bitrate of source signal between 44 an 96kHz.
Measurement of Voltage on Muratas I've done some time ago with original PSU can be found here:
12V reg: input=14.76V output=11.98V
5V reg: input=14.75V output=5.00V
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=184912&postcount=35
Analysis of three signals:
http://localhost.sk/dropzone/linear_psu_12,9V%5Bblue%5D+orig_psu_20cm%5Bred%5D+ pink_noise%5Bgr%5D.png
green = original wav file with pink noise generated in Audacity
cyan/blue = pink noise signal recorded on MBpro from Gatorized caiman and linear psu set to 12.9V
red = pink noise signal recorded on MBpro from Gatorized caiman and original Caiman PSU with shortened power cable to 20cm - you can see the spike at abut 900Hz and a tiny bit higher noise in area under 20kHz in comparison to linear PSU
fullsize pic:
http://localhost.sk/dropzone/linear_psu_12,9V%5Bblue%5D+orig_psu_20cm%5Bred%5D+ pink_noise%5Bgr%5D-FULL.png
The Gator headphone output has been set to a level that can cope with a wide range of headphone impedances. However, cans like the HD600/650/800 and some Beyer Dynamics versions with their 300 or even 600 Ohms impedance are able to take advantage of an up to now undocumented feature of the Gator PCB.
The resistors marked with a red circle are 42K instead of the standard 27K fitted to the Gator. You could even go up to 56K but sound clipping will occur at high volume levels. Mind you, at that sort of level you are likely to go deaf very quickly.
I am a proud owner of a new Caiman+ with Gator -- thanks Stan for the very fast turnaround. First impressions are very even performance with no obvious weaknesses.
One thing I noticed was that the volume (fixed output) of the Caiman with Gator is lower than my other dacs. Does the 42k resistor mod affect the fixed line out also, and my how many dB? I'm looking to a mod to increase gain sometime after my Caiman has bedded in.
Werner Berghofer
11-03-2011, 16:24
One thing I noticed was that the volume (fixed output) of the Caiman with Gator is lower than my other dacs.
I’m not able to compare my gatorized Caimans to DACs from other manufacturers, but the fixed line out volume of this model definitely is louder than the volume of Stan’s TC-7520 and the Caiman without Gator PCB.
I’m not able to compare my gatorized Caimans to DACs from other manufacturers, but the fixed line out volume of this model definitely is louder than the volume of Stan’s TC-7520 and the Caiman without Gator PCB.
Thanks Werner. That worries me... Is there some way I can check that I do have a Gator upgrade installed in the Caiman+ (without resorting to use of a screwdriver)?
chapter three
11-03-2011, 18:32
I found the gatorised caiman to be lower in output than the stock caiman in my system. More dynamic but a bit quieter.
There's no way of knowing whether there's a gator in there without opening it up but I'd have thought it's very unlikely that Stan would have made a mistake.
Werner Berghofer
11-03-2011, 18:48
Is there some way I can check that I do have a Gator upgrade installed in the Caiman+
Well, usually Stan delivers exactly – and very quickly, by the way – what’s been asked from him. If you ordered a Caiman+ with a Gator PCB, I’m pretty sure this is what has been shipped to you.
I use two gatorized Caiman DACs: one in my desktop system, and the other one in the living room. The Caimans replaced the TC-7520 models. I did not compare the output volume by measuring with a reference microphone, but the volume dials on both amplifiers had to be turned a little bit more counter-clockwise when I added the Caiman DACs to the audio chain. At least on my systems, dynamic range and output volume was increased due to the Gator PCBs.
The standard Gator is designed to be all things to all headphones, but I left some blank component spaces in the PCB so that the Gator can be tuned to various cans.
The following is a tune up for my K701. The added caps in the middle next to the 22nF ( 47nF in the standard board) are 220pF. So you need 2 x 22nF and 2 x 220pF. It gives the K701 a lot more weight and body.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/aos/Gatorbass.jpg
Hi Stan, after applying this mod I can confirm that my HD800 now sounds less subtle, or in other words I now can't complain about any quiet bass :)
Thank you!
I've tried also Koss Sporta Pro headphones (as I do always first after any mod to test if it's safe to connect HD800 :) ), but those were not able to reproduce so much bass and was distorted even on average volume levels :)
I did not yet replaced the resistors as i'm not really sure about their wattage. I bought 0,4W resistors, but those are smaller (about a half) than original resistors - is it really OK to use 0,4W resistors here? I just want to avoid burning Gator/HD800s :)
Photo of the mod, it just replicates Stan's photo:
http://localhost.sk/dropzone/Gator-Headphone-Mod1-maniac.jpg
kabforks
14-03-2011, 01:14
Regarding power supply... does one need an upgraded PSU to be able to use the Gator board? I see it's on the ordering list. Could someone elaborate? :)
Regarding power supply... does one need an upgraded PSU to be able to use the Gator board? I see it's on the ordering list. Could someone elaborate? :)
No you do not require an upgraded PSU to run a Gator but stan does reccomend purchasing a Caiman PSU to replace the standard 7520 one "while your at it". I.e if your going to buy the Gator to get better sound you may as well get the PSU too at the same time and get even better sound.
Butuz
Well, usually Stan delivers exactly – and very quickly, by the way – what’s been asked from him. If you ordered a Caiman+ with a Gator PCB, I’m pretty sure this is what has been shipped to you.
I use two gatorized Caiman DACs: one in my desktop system, and the other one in the living room. The Caimans replaced the TC-7520 models. I did not compare the output volume by measuring with a reference microphone, but the volume dials on both amplifiers had to be turned a little bit more counter-clockwise when I added the Caiman DACs to the audio chain. At least on my systems, dynamic range and output volume was increased due to the Gator PCBs.
Yes, my Caiman+ did come with the Gator pcb as ordered. It is, however several dB softer than my other dacs (probably 2-3dB softer than the standard 2.0V rms, although I have not measured.
I could not resist the urge to add more teeth to my Gator, so I've applied the standard Murata reg (+5V only), better supply caps mods to the receiver/dac board. The sound, which was already good to begin with, started to get more 'life', but lacked the body / authority that my best dacs provided (highly modded Channel Islands VDA-1, Zhaolu 2.0). I looked carefully at the supplies for the Gator, and felt that given the lengths of pcb tracks taken by the supplies (+15V, +12V regulated), some extra caps would be useful. I used Silmic IIs. The results? Superb. This added body to the sound, without taking away the refinement and detail.
There is not much space on the top or bottom of the Gator pcb, but I added caps on the bottom. Cap sizes are "to taste", and I used a range between 22uF and 470uF. For Silmics space is a premium and I have not tested different sizes for optimal sound.
chapter three
23-03-2011, 05:20
Yes, my Caiman+ did come with the Gator pcb as ordered. It is, however several dB softer than my other dacs (probably 2-3dB softer than the standard 2.0V rms, although I have not measured.
I could not resist the urge to add more teeth to my Gator, so I've applied the standard Murata reg (+5V only), better supply caps mods to the receiver/dac board. The sound, which was already good to begin with, started to get more 'life', but lacked the body / authority that my best dacs provided (highly modded Channel Islands VDA-1, Zhaolu 2.0). I looked carefully at the supplies for the Gator, and felt that given the lengths of pcb tracks taken by the supplies (+15V, +12V regulated), some extra caps would be useful. I used Silmic IIs. The results? Superb. This added body to the sound, without taking away the refinement and detail.
There is not much space on the top or bottom of the Gator pcb, but I added caps on the bottom. Cap sizes are "to taste", and I used a range between 22uF and 470uF. For Silmics space is a premium and I have not tested different sizes for optimal sound.
Interesting. Could you post some pics of the mod?
Interesting. Could you post some pics of the mod?
As I alluded, the work is experimental and not pretty...:(
I have caps connected to the V- and V+ of the opamp (V- is GND for the Gator), and between 12V and GND of the transistors (Q1, Q2) on the left side of the Gator board (for left and right channels). To be really safe and not mess up anything, I suggest tracing the output of the 7912 regulator from the larger pcb, up to the Gator board.
I'm not set up for macro photography, but will try to take a shot if I work on the Gator in the future.
I could not resist the urge to add more teeth to my Gator, so I've applied the standard Murata reg (+5V only), better supply caps mods to the receiver/dac board. The sound, which was already good to begin with, started to get more 'life', but lacked the body / authority that my best dacs provided (highly modded Channel Islands VDA-1, Zhaolu 2.0). I looked carefully at the supplies for the Gator, and felt that given the lengths of pcb tracks taken by the supplies (+15V, +12V regulated), some extra caps would be useful. I used Silmic IIs. The results? Superb. This added body to the sound, without taking away the refinement and detail.
Hi Mervin,
did you notice faint tone on background in very quiet music passages (so muting cirtuit is not engaged) after applying Muratas?
From the moment i've applied Muratas i can hear this tone mainly on HD800's connected directly to phones out of caiman with gator, but it's also on fixed output to preamp. I can hear it only on quite high volume (over 12'o clock on caiman) to which i'm listening to in some quiet recordings..
I was experimenting a bit and found that when i'm using linear PSU and set voltage below 13Volt this tone dissapears completely. By coincidence 13V and up is the voltage when Muratas are expected to start actually "work properly". I allready tried to replace both Muratas with new ones, but situation is still the same :(
As it was mentioned elsewhere on AOS, another member had the same issue and solved it by applying about 330uF caps to Vin and GND of both Muratas. I've done the same, but then found out that although this will remove background tone, but unfortunately it adds unpleasant noise to music when feeding caiman with 13Volt or more (up to 15,4V which is possible with my linear PSU, or original Caiman PSU).
I'm thinking if it is caused byt switched nature of this regulators and if yes what kind of filtering would help to get rid of this tone on background..
Hi Mervin,
did you notice faint tone on background in very quiet music passages (so muting cirtuit is not engaged) after applying Muratas?
I did read your posts with interest, but have not noticed any such noise. You may have noted that I only used the 5V Murata, as I didn't see much too gain from the 12V regulator, since the 12V load looks trivial (just a few transistors?).
I've also used the Murata (5V) regs on my Channel Islands VDA-1. It's an interesting story: the PCM1716 dac was damaged from some modding that kept de-emphasis on all the time. I was going to replace it directly, but read some Beresford posts on upgrading the PCM1716 to Wolfson WM8716. To cut the story short, the WM8716 makes huge difference, providing good bass and refined top end. With the Muratas, the dac runs a lot cooler too, without a heatsink to the +5V reg with the heavier load.
Several other power supply cap changes later (solid aluminum polymer for digital, Silmic II for analogue), I replaced two 5V regs with Muratas, and these opened up the sound further. In many ways my Channel Islands dac has been Caiman-ized... ;)
LittleTone
04-04-2011, 08:42
Perhaps I should do an upgrade kit for the TC-7520, comprising of the Gator, opamp, and Caiman power supply?
Having just upgraded with a Gator 2 and moved the 4562 into the headphone socket I've just come across this post.
Can I further improve the SQ with a Caiman power supply. I was under the impression it was a higher voltage and therefore unsuitable.
Regards
Tony
Bit late top the Gator party, having run my "caimanised" 7520(*) with the passive mod, using the yellow film caps Stan recommended for this mod.
Been chatting with a friend who has the "Gator 2" board as well as the original, and he says the 2nd version sound better.
That got my attention...and I'm interested in seeing what the fuss is about!
Anyone try the Gator 2 over the Passive mod and have some thoughts to share?
(*) 7520 with:
replaced Dac chip.
Mutara Regs
Elna Slimics
Wire Mod
15v Linear Maplin CBR psu
Passive mod with Stans Yellow film caps instead of opamp board.
thanks.
Gaz.
StanleyB
05-04-2011, 07:00
Can I further improve the SQ with a Caiman power supply. I was under the impression it was a higher voltage and therefore unsuitable. Where did you read that it was unsuitable for use with the Gator?
Have a loan of a Gator2 board from a friend, fitting it today and will do some proper listening over the next few days.
Will be comparing a film caps Passive modded dac with Mutaras, Elna Slimics and 15V linear PSU.
Should be good :)
*EDIT*
Had a listen for half hour or so...
not so good...and wondering whats up.
Peak level distortion on a lot of tracks, listening is an "edge of the seat" experience..like everythings been turned up to 11.
Its particulalrly noticable on female vocals, piano's saxophones etc, so might be an issue of frequency response rather than absolute peak level?
It sounds as though there is far too much gain in my system, any danger of there being an impedance mismatch with the Gator board and my amp?
Using Cambridge Azur 640A (Input Impedance: 47k Ohms) so should be ok with the Gator? No problems with the original opamp board.
The Gator board is GOOD compared to the Passive mod with film caps, a better sense of 3D and more air and a bit more "life" to the sound...but I wonder if this is just the increased gain. Its hard to get past that to be honest...its just TOO much.
Shame, because you can tell it sounds great...theres just something causing distortion somewhere.
any ideas?
LittleTone
05-04-2011, 17:43
Where did you read that it was unsuitable for use with the Gator?
Hi Stan
Not so much unsuitable for the Gator but the standard 7520.
I'm running a standard 7520 with a Gator 2 upgrade using the supplied 12 volt
power supply. I thought, rightly or wrongly the Caiman was using a 15 volt PS.
If its ok to use the Caiman power supply AND it would improve SQ please let me know how much it's gonna cost and I'll order one.
Regards
Tony
Peter Galbavy
05-04-2011, 18:49
Peak level distortion on a lot of tracks, listening is an "edge of the seat" experience..like everythings been turned up to 11.
Its particulalrly noticable on female vocals, piano's saxophones etc, so might be an issue of frequency response rather than absolute peak level?
I get some odd distortion on certain tracks and at the moment the Caiman (and original Gator) is going through an Audiolab 8000C. Will put variable out direct into power amp soon to compare.
chapter three
05-04-2011, 19:18
Have a loan of a Gator2 board from a friend, fitting it today and will do some proper listening over the next few days.
Will be comparing a film caps Passive modded dac with Mutaras, Elna Slimics and 15V linear PSU.
Should be good :)
*EDIT*
Had a listen for half hour or so...
not so good...and wondering whats up.
Peak level distortion on a lot of tracks, listening is an "edge of the seat" experience..like everythings been turned up to 11.
Its particulalrly noticable on female vocals, piano's saxophones etc, so might be an issue of frequency response rather than absolute peak level?
It sounds as though there is far too much gain in my system, any danger of there being an impedance mismatch with the Gator board and my amp?
Using Cambridge Azur 640A (Input Impedance: 47k Ohms) so should be ok with the Gator? No problems with the original opamp board.
The Gator board is GOOD compared to the Passive mod with film caps, a better sense of 3D and more air and a bit more "life" to the sound...but I wonder if this is just the increased gain. Its hard to get past that to be honest...its just TOO much.
Shame, because you can tell it sounds great...theres just something causing distortion somewhere.
any ideas?
This is exactly what I get. Distortion on female vocal, piano and acoustic guitar. It certainly seems to be frequency related and it's only on certain tracks but always present each time I play the track.
It's very annoying. I have both versions of the Gator and the distortion is present on both. I've tried it with three different amps. It's there with all of them.
I've had the Murata and Elna Silmic upgrade. I'm using the Maplin CB radio supply set to 15v.
Reid Malenfant
05-04-2011, 19:43
This is exactly what I get. Distortion on female vocal, piano and acoustic guitar. It certainly seems to be frequency related and it's only on certain tracks but always present each time I play the track.
It's very annoying. I have both versions of the Gator and the distortion is present on both. I've tried it with three different amps. It's there with all of them.
I've had the Murata and Elna Silmic upgrade. I'm using the Maplin CB radio supply set to 15v.
I should imagine it's on the original recording then & you are now hearing it due to the increased transparency of the DAC ;) I can't guarantee this though, but take it from me that my system shows up crappy recordings - i live with it ;)
Lots of CDs etc recordings are distorted, it just takes time & money to find the offending articals :rolleyes:
I should add though that well recorded stuff sounds amazing :eyebrows:
This is exactly what I get. Distortion on female vocal, piano and acoustic guitar. It certainly seems to be frequency related and it's only on certain tracks but always present each time I play the track.
It's very annoying. I have both versions of the Gator and the distortion is present on both. I've tried it with three different amps. It's there with all of them.
I've had the Murata and Elna Silmic upgrade. I'm using the Maplin CB radio supply set to 15v.
I certainly had an issue with my original Gator, but no problems at all with the modified version - unless as Mark says, it is on the recording... I haven't done any other mods, though. Have you tried the passive mod, and do you get the same problems? If not, and you want to try it PM me and I can send you some caps to try in place of the board that I used before Gatorisation. :)
Can say that with the passive mod...on the "problem" tracks theres none of the harshness.
Music open clear no harshness...just reduced volume in comparison.
With the Gator board these tracks are practically unlistenable.
But only on CERTAIN tracks???
Theres no commonality between these tracks, different genres, some 24/96 some mp3 320kbs some 16/44...jazz, rock, classical doesn't matter.
The problem is that theres a helluva lot of them.
Only thing in common I can see is high frequency dynamic peaks, whether its female vocals hitting the peaks, electric guitar solos, violin crescedo's...its just too harsh.
Its the same distortion you would get if something is recorded at far too high a level.
Happy to say its my system rather than the Gator board itself (well....the design itself as opposed to the sample Im using) as loads of Gator owners are extremely happy - but this distortion - in my system - is a pain in the tits and quite frustrating honestly, as some tracks sound better than before but not all. I'm getting 99% of better..but that last 1% is spoiling it.
grrr..
magiccarpetride
05-04-2011, 21:09
I should imagine it's on the original recording then & you are now hearing it due to the increased transparency of the DAC ;) I can't guarantee this though, but take it from me that my system shows up crappy recordings - i live with it ;)
Lots of CDs etc recordings are distorted, it just takes time & money to find the offending articals :rolleyes:
True. After I've Gatorized my Caiman, I've noticed that certain bass notes on the Les Nubians CD sound like my Maggies have been shredded to pieces. At first, my heart stopped, and I immediately pushed Pause. The bass on that track is extremely strong and loud, so my first thought was that the speakers got damaged.
Upon further examination, turns out that the distortion is on the original recording. I wasn't able to hear it before the upgrade, but this devilish little Gator plumbed the depths of the sound signal all the way down to the bitter end and unearthed that little ugly piece of sonic turd.
Shame on the engineers who recorded/mastered that CD with such terrible anomaly (but on the other hand, they don't care because they know that only a tiny portion of Nubians fans have sufficiently revealing hi fi to detect that faux pas)
always good for a laugh Alex, but those shitty recordings you hate so much now...what if they sounded wonderful before?
thats what im hearing.
I'm happy to go back to using film caps with the passive mod, but having heard the Gator I can see what the fuss is about....
theres just something amiss somewhere.
magiccarpetride
05-04-2011, 23:32
always good for a laugh Alex, but those shitty recordings you hate so much now...what if they sounded wonderful before?
thats what im hearing.
I'm happy to go back to using film caps with the passive mod, but having heard the Gator I can see what the fuss is about....
theres just something amiss somewhere.
Hmmm, good question Gary. Yes, you're right, whilst before Gatorizing my Caiman I used to really enjoy that particular Les Nubians track, I'm now dreading it. It tends to break my heart, as it always sounds as if that super intense bass is wrecking my Maggies. In reality, the engineers messed it up somewhere in the recording/mixing/mastering chain, only it wasn't plainly audible before (vanilla Caiman was less revealing I s'ppose).
Moral of the story? Ignorance is bliss? Dunno.
Are these boards still available? £24inc postage?
Is there a Mk2 due?
LittleTone
06-04-2011, 07:04
Hi Rob
I believe this is the link to the Mk2 Gator
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/PP/Upgrades_1.html
I had 50 pieces of the Gator MK2 in stock at 1PM. There are now 42 pieces left. So don't miss out if you are after one of them :).
The MK2 has a lower gain so that it is compatible with some older amps. The headphone output has also been tweaked so that it can make better use of high current opamps. I have tried the THS493s, LM4562NA and AD826. I'll have to desolder my LM4562HA form a different PCB in order to give that a try as well.
Regards
Tony
Hmmm, good question Gary. Yes, you're right, whilst before Gatorizing my Caiman I used to really enjoy that particular Les Nubians track, I'm now dreading it. It tends to break my heart, as it always sounds as if that super intense bass is wrecking my Maggies. In reality, the engineers messed it up somewhere in the recording/mixing/mastering chain, only it wasn't plainly audible before (vanilla Caiman was less revealing I s'ppose).
Moral of the story? Ignorance is bliss? Dunno.
Hey Alex,
I wish I COULD say it was just a case of bad mastering etc being highlighted by a more transparent system...I could live with that.
Its not though..its very definately a sibilance/distortion problem IN MY SYSTEM thats not playing nice with the Gator board.
Which is a shame as I liked the increased clarity and better 3D I was getting with most of my music.
Was hoping someone could pitch in with some specific thoughts about what could be causing it and can it be fixed. :)
I've tried:
Going over to the variable output - same
Different cables - same
Comparing with film caps - problem not there
Which makes me think its my amp..but Martin has the same problem and he has tried his Gator with three different amps...so I'm still none the wiser.
My friend who loaned me the Gator says he has no problems with the board itself in his Dac, which makes me think something in my system isn't playing nice with the Gator somewhere.
any help/comments appreciated!
Right, had a read back through the Gator threads here and a couple of possibilities came up.
1.
Problems with the contact pins on my Dac PCB?
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=175751&postcount=174
How easy are the black pin covers on the PCB to remove? Are they just push fitted and could be taken off with a set ofneedle nose pliers say?
Anyone done it?
2.
Input gain too much on my Amp...similar to problems Alex_UK had:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=184327&postcount=196
Would this "gain mod" take care of the problem, like it did with Alex's and a couple of others?
Stan, what do you think?
Could you supply a Gator 2 with the "gain Mod" applied?
...and if the problem still exists could I return it?
Im REALLY keen to get this to work, as Im looking to get a good set of headphones and I prefer the extra clarity from the Line out with the Gator.
So many questions!
Thanks very much. :)
Trumpetman
06-04-2011, 16:49
Hey.
Im thinking of buying a gatorized caiman to use with a power amp and B&W CM1. Havent bought the power amp, but am thinking of a rotel 1070.
Is this problem with the stock gatorized caiman? Or is it a prob with a modded versjon?
Espen
magiccarpetride
06-04-2011, 16:49
Hey Alex,
I wish I COULD say it was just a case of bad mastering etc being highlighted by a more transparent system...I could live with that.
Its not though..its very definately a sibilance/distortion problem IN MY SYSTEM thats not playing nice with the Gator board.
Which is a shame as I liked the increased clarity and better 3D I was getting with most of my music.
Was hoping someone could pitch in with some specific thoughts about what could be causing it and can it be fixed. :)
I've tried:
Going over to the variable output - same
Different cables - same
Comparing with film caps - problem not there
Which makes me think its my amp..but Martin has the same problem and he has tried his Gator with three different amps...so I'm still none the wiser.
My friend who loaned me the Gator says he has no problems with the board itself in his Dac, which makes me think something in my system isn't playing nice with the Gator somewhere.
any help/comments appreciated!
Hey Gary,
Can you get similar issues to come up on those same tracks with a different DAC? See if you could borrow a different DAC from a buddy, and let us know. Or are you absolutely certain it is only specific to the Gatorized Caiman?
I've had no other problems with my Gator, but that pesky distorted bass is driving me nuts. I have no other explanation but to chalk it up to the faulty master.
Other than that, everything else plays divinely. And I've been upgrading my system like crazy in the past month or so, meaning that even with various components in and out of the chain, Gatorized DAC keeps playing nicely.
Sorry bud, I ran out of reasonable options here. Best of luck with taming the Gator, I know how much you love squeezing the last atom of stellar performance out of your gear:)
I think I have the same problem.
I use my Gatorised Caiman for cable TV, CDs, and a DVD/Blu-ray player.
I remember a music TV channel had to be turned over due to constant treble distortion.
Also, on CDs, certain tracks distort in the treble, consistently.
However, Blu-rays sound incredible and they should considering the money Hollywood can pour into recording quality. I never hear distortion on the movies, which makes me think recording/output quality could be at fault on the cable box and the CDs.
I've only had the Gator a couple of weeks so will continue to survey the problem.
Hey Gary,
Can you get similar issues to come up on those same tracks with a different DAC? See if you could borrow a different DAC from a buddy, and let us know. Or are you absolutely certain it is only specific to the Gatorized Caiman?
I've had no other problems with my Gator, but that pesky distorted bass is driving me nuts. I have no other explanation but to chalk it up to the faulty master.
Other than that, everything else plays divinely. And I've been upgrading my system like crazy in the past month or so, meaning that even with various components in and out of the chain, Gatorized DAC keeps playing nicely.
Sorry bud, I ran out of reasonable options here. Best of luck with taming the Gator, I know how much you love squeezing the last atom of stellar performance out of your gear:)
Thanks for that Alex.
Not got a different Dac as such, but on taking the Gator out and replacing the film caps/passive mod the problem vanishes.
Kinda narrows it down I'd say.
The more I think about it I reckon its an issue with the Gator output into my amp - its just too much.
The"Gain Mod" that has been done on Gators elsewhere might just be the solution? :scratch:
Stan, would you be able to comment on this?
Thanks.
Trumpetman
06-04-2011, 17:49
Maybe its a faulty part or something. In high school we had to make a basic radio, and one of the transistor types used had a construction fault. So every one, except 1 of the radios gave only a whine when turned on:doh:. And all of them was correctly made... We found the faulty transistor the next day, replaced it next week, as we got a new order of them, and all worked... :cool::cool:
Espen
chapter three
06-04-2011, 17:56
Thanks for that Alex.
Not got a different Dac as such, but on taking the Gator out and replacing the film caps/passive mod the problem vanishes.
Kinda narrows it down I'd say.
The more I think about it I reckon its an issue with the Gator output into my amp - its just too much.
The"Gain Mod" that has been done on Gators elsewhere might just be the solution? :scratch:
Stan, would you be able to comment on this?
Thanks.
My transport is a Pioneer Stable Platter. I've tried switching between the digital output to the Caiman and the analogue output which obviously is fed straight to the amp. This is just a matter of swiching the input selector on my amp as I have both sources cabled up. There is no distortion present when using the Pioneer as a stand alone CD player, only when I use the Caiman/Gator is there a problem.
I'll reinstall version 2 of the Gator this evening and check that again.
Maybe its a faulty part or something. In high school we had to make a basic radio, and one of the transistor types used had a construction fault. So every one, except 1 of the radios gave only a whine when turned on:doh:. And all of them was correctly made... We found the faulty transistor the next day, replaced it next week, as we got a new order of them, and all worked... :cool::cool:
Espen
Oh if it was that simple :)
The Gator board works fine on a friends Dac!
Lead suspect I think is the Gator output being too much for my amp input, as others have had a similar problem which was fixed on reducing the Gator output level.
But I could be wrong...
magiccarpetride
06-04-2011, 19:20
Thanks for that Alex.
Not got a different Dac as such, but on taking the Gator out and replacing the film caps/passive mod the problem vanishes.
Kinda narrows it down I'd say.
The more I think about it I reckon its an issue with the Gator output into my amp - its just too much.
The"Gain Mod" that has been done on Gators elsewhere might just be the solution? :scratch:
Stan, would you be able to comment on this?
Thanks.
But if that's the case, shouldn't you be getting the distortion on pretty much all tracks you listen to?
But if that's the case, shouldn't you be getting the distortion on pretty much all tracks you listen to?
Which is the odd thing...
its only on certain "sounds" that the distortion comes in...higher frequency dynamic swings usually, female vocals, acoustic guitar, piano, that kind of thing.
This makes me think its maybe not JUST a gain issue but somehow related to frequency too.
Whilst I know whats wrong, the solution is out of my expertise so I'm just guessing at this point,
Looking for similar problems other folks have had.
Which to be fair is hardly any - 99.9% of Gator owners seem delighted, its just my luck I have this problem in my system!
chapter three
06-04-2011, 19:34
One of the CDs that now gives me distortion is Madeleine Peyroux's "Bare Bones", Stina Nordenstam's "This is" is also a problem.
Werner Berghofer
06-04-2011, 20:39
One of the CDs that now gives me distortion is Madeleine Peyroux's "Bare Bones"
In this moment I hear ”Bare bones“ in ALAC file format, streamed wirelessly from a MacBook Pro to an Airport Express which is connected via optical cable to a gatorized Caiman. The Caiman’s fixed line-out feeds my ancient Yahama AX-592 amplifier with Triangle Esprit floor-standing loudspeakers. Everything sounds just fine, I cannot hear any distortion.
However, two weeks ago I noticed an incredible level of distortion on any track of ”Feels like home“ from Norah Jones, again when played through a gatorized Caiman. I even re-ripped the whole CD, but this didn’t change anything. The distortion is stronger with headphones directly connected to the DAC, but it also can be heard from the loudspeakers.
The distortion also is there when listening via a gatorized TC-7520, although not that strong as in the Caiman. Before my DACs were gatorized (using Gator Mk1), I didn’t notice any distortion.
chapter three
06-04-2011, 20:48
"Feels Like Home" is also distorted on my system. Add that one to my list.
Werner Berghofer
06-04-2011, 20:55
Do you listen via loudspeakers or via headphones connected to the DAC’s headphone port?
chapter three
06-04-2011, 20:58
Loudspeakers. Not really listened to headphones since I've had the Gator. I'll give them a try. I've got Sennheiser HD650s.
magiccarpetride
06-04-2011, 21:16
Which is the odd thing...
its only on certain "sounds" that the distortion comes in...higher frequency dynamic swings usually, female vocals, acoustic guitar, piano, that kind of thing.
This makes me think its maybe not JUST a gain issue but somehow related to frequency too.
Whilst I know whats wrong, the solution is out of my expertise so I'm just guessing at this point,
Looking for similar problems other folks have had.
Which to be fair is hardly any - 99.9% of Gator owners seem delighted, its just my luck I have this problem in my system!
Bummer. Any chance you could give us the names of few problematic tracks? Maybe I have some of the same songs in my library, I wouldn't mind trying them.
Also, I recall that you've been doing lots of Soundcheck's mods to the Touch. I did them too, and with each mod I've noticed how the signal was getting stronger and firmer and more authoritative and more in-your-face. Maybe that too plays into the Gator's over-excitedness? Have you tried doing the factory reset on the Touch? See if that makes any change...
I just listen to ”Bare Bones“ in ALAC file format, streamed wirelessly from a Macbook Pro to an Airport Express which is connected via optical cable to a gatorized Caiman. The Caiman’s fixed line-out feeds my ancient Yahama AX-592 amplifier with Triangle Esprit floor-standing loudspeakers. Everything sounds just fine, I cannot hear any distortion.
However, two weeks ago I noticed an incredible level of distortion on any track of ”Feels like home“ from Norah Jones, again when played through a gatorized Caiman. I even re-ripped the whole CD, but this didn’t change anything. The distortion is stronger with headphones directly connected to the DAC, but it also can be heard from the loudspeakers.
The distortion also is there when listening via a gatorized TC-7520, although not that strong as in the Caiman. Before my DACs were gatorized (using Gator Mk1), I didn’t notice any distortion.
This sounds worrying. Is your headphone volume set at zero while listening to music via the fixed line outputs? Which opamp do you have on the Gator?
Perhaps it would be useful to gather some statistics. A design characteristic of the Beresford dacs is single ended power (+12V or +15V) on the analog section, whereas many others have +/-12V or +/-15V, providing more headroom.
FYI I am using a Gator with LM4562, and I find that distortion on loud, high frequency music (in my case massed strings in classical music, usually quite demanding) is subjectively as low or lower compared to other dacs. The challenge is that I'm not sure if my dac has Mk1 or Mk2 Gator, *and* I've done enough mods on my Gator that any one of a dozen mods to power or signal coupling may have affected things.
I think we need Stan's input here, when he's next around. The "gain mod" on mine (original Gator) completely cured the problem, whereas before it was exactly as Gaz describes, especially piano. It made no difference if I used the variable output set very low, and the amp set high. Gaz - which input are you using on your amp - some have different sensitivity (mine doesn't) on the CD input, which is what I believe the Gator is designed to work with, I understand.
I have a Gator mk I and so far I had not noticed anything; when I read these posts last night I played some classical and auntie Krall
.
Now that Norah Jones was mentioned I checked my collection and there was one track from a compilation "Don't know why".... damn there it was; several spots on that track.
That was using the variable lineout on my gatorized Caiman: also clearly "visible" via headphones.
I checked my office setup and I could also hear it there but it was more subtle and I had to listen a couple of times to be able to hear all the static spots.
So no doubt that it is a bad production.
BTW isn't the mk II produced with the adjustment to avoid the gain issue? I think that Stan stated that previously...
Werner Berghofer
07-04-2011, 06:25
Is your headphone volume set at zero while listening to music via the fixed line outputs?
Yes, it is. Being an extremely anal type, it’s my habit to turn off everything which is currently not in use.
Which opamp do you have on the Gator?
LM4562 on my gatorized TC-7520s, AD826 on my gatorized Caimans. All DACs are powered by Caiman PSUs (labelled ”Beresford Caiman“ on the outside).
StanleyB
07-04-2011, 06:56
I shall try to find some of the tracks that people have reported problems with, and see if I can recreate the distortion on my setup. I know that some of the Norah Jones tracks are dodgy in their production, and even with a TC-7510 I can hear those recording defects. The Gator would make those defects even more noticeable.
In the mean time, anyone who prefers the original PCB to the Gator(s) that they bought can get in touch with me by email and I shall take the Gator back from you.
Werner Berghofer
07-04-2011, 07:24
anyone who prefers the original PCB to the Gator(s) that they bought can get in touch with me by email and I shall take the Gator back from you
Stan, this is a very generous offer which at least I certainly do not plan to take. Going back to the dark, pre-gatorized listening era is just not possible for me :-)
Holy sh*t, back in the early 1970s (with the fresh ears of an adolescent) I used to love music recorded on compact cassettes! Nowadays – at the age of 54 – I’m concerned about hi-fi equipment being too revealing?
I’m a big fan of your excellent DACs and I enjoy every minute listening to music reproduced by your gear.
StanleyB
07-04-2011, 07:42
Thanks for your comments Werner :). The more I develop my products to reveal even more detail at a knock down price, the more difficult it becomes to make users aware that the extra detail might not be what everyone wishes to know about.
Maybe my idea to sell the Gator as an upgrade was wrong. I should have shown how to build it as a DIY project on veroboard instead and let people build it at their own leisure and with whatever parts they want. I don't make anything of note on the project, but it wasn't my intention to make any money out of it in the first place. So I shall pull the Gator upgrade at the end of the month or as soon as the remaining 37 pieces of MK2 boards are finished. So it's back to the passive mod DIY project after that.
Thanks for your comments Werner :). The more I develop my products to reveal even more detail at a knock down price, the more difficult it becomes to make users aware that the extra detail might not be what everyone wishes to know about.
Maybe my idea to sell the Gator as an upgrade was wrong. I should have shown how to build it as a DIY project on veroboard instead and let people build it at their own leisure and with whatever parts they want. I don't make anything of note on the project, but it wasn't my intention to make any money out of it in the first place. So I shall pull the Gator upgrade at the end of the month or as soon as the remaining 37 pieces of MK2 boards are finished. So it's back to the passive mod DIY project after that.
Hi Stan,
As I said throughout my posts here, i felt the problem was with my system as 99.9% of Gator owners were extremely happy with the product and I could easily tell the improvment over the passive mod in terms of clarity and 3d soundstage.
I was complimenting the Gator and making sure I didn't give the impression it was a bad bit of kit! :)
The distortion though Stan..after hearing the comments about the ruthlessly revealing nature of the Gator I went back and relistened to the problem tracks and I can say that to me it definately seems its a gain/freq response problem rather than the nature of the recording.
Which is why I asked you about the Gain mod earlier..maybe its an easy fix? ;)
Alex_Uk said it cured the exact same problem that he (and I) had.
Could be wrong of course, Im a electronics numptie but I just thought it would be useful to post here and look at specific reasons why this could be happening.
After all, its what an online community is for! :)
The forum here has been great for ongoing tweaking and development of the Dac Stan, so maybe this is an oppertunity to get some good feedback from end users for making the Gator even better!!
Any info on the mod you can point to Stan in earlier threads or...?
Many thanks...
and remember I was PRAISING the Gators improvements!
Just a little niggle with this distortion problem is all, which I thought was ok to discuss.
Bummer. Any chance you could give us the names of few problematic tracks? Maybe I have some of the same songs in my library, I wouldn't mind trying them.
Also, I recall that you've been doing lots of Soundcheck's mods to the Touch. I did them too, and with each mod I've noticed how the signal was getting stronger and firmer and more authoritative and more in-your-face. Maybe that too plays into the Gator's over-excitedness? Have you tried doing the factory reset on the Touch? See if that makes any change...
Alex,
Good idea, I'll try the factory reset see what that does.
I agree with the Soundcheck mods doing what you say they did, maybe in combination with the Gator its just too much.
Some testing later.
Problem tracks?
Norah Jones - Feels like home
Anything with dynamic piano in it.
Adele 21 (most of the album)
Anything by Meatloaf (B I G production values really brings the distortion out)
Seasick Steve - Doghouse Music
...lots more but that'll do. :)
I think we need Stan's input here, when he's next around. The "gain mod" on mine (original Gator) completely cured the problem, whereas before it was exactly as Gaz describes, especially piano. It made no difference if I used the variable output set very low, and the amp set high. Gaz - which input are you using on your amp - some have different sensitivity (mine doesn't) on the CD input, which is what I believe the Gator is designed to work with, I understand.
Hey Alex,
It was your post about the "Gain mod" that focussed on what is probably the problem in my system and possibly the solution.
The Dac is usually plugged into the CD input, but I tried the others but all just the same.
Funny though, because a couple of the inputs up the "opposite" side of the circuit board sounded "different"?
Go figure...not even going there! :)
StanleyB
07-04-2011, 09:31
The forum here has been great for ongoing tweaking and development of the Dac Stan, so maybe this is an oppertunity to get some good feedback from end users for making the Gator even better!!
Considering the £2 odd that I make on each board it just isn't worth the hassle any more.
Stan.
Would the "gain mod" that you did previously for Alex_Uk be applicable to the Gator 2?
Would this mod reduce the output of the Gator 2?
I ask as this MIGHT be the solution to my problem...
if so, could you supply a Gator 2 board with the Gain Mod applied, with the normal money back guarantee?
thanks.
StanleyB
07-04-2011, 11:35
The MK2 has the Alex mod. But why do you ask? I can't find any record of you on my system with regards to any Gator bought.
The MK2 has the Alex mod. But why do you ask? I can't find any record of you on my system with regards to any Gator bought.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=202356&postcount=65
was a prospective buyer Stan, had the chance to listen to one in my system...
not to worry :)
Thanks for your comments Werner :)
I should have shown how to build it as a DIY project on veroboard instead and let people build it at their own leisure and with whatever parts they want.
.
Yess Pleeeassseee:eyebrows:
Trumpetman
07-04-2011, 17:39
Oh Dont stop making the gator yet.....:(:(
I cant afford a caiman until summer and WANT the gator, cause i need the headphone too... And I know other people too that want it with gator...
magiccarpetride
07-04-2011, 17:58
Considering the £2 odd that I make on each board it just isn't worth the hassle any more.
Stan, the consensus is that Gatorized Caiman is breathtakingly superior to vanilla Caiman. Please make the necessary pricing adjustments that will ensure viable business for you, and continue offering the superior product. I'm in discussion with a few people who are looking for a DAC, and in my honest opinion they'd have to go into spending thousands before they could get something better than Gatorized Caiman.
OK - so my Gator is essentially the "Mk2 prototype" - and is certainly fine into my Creek amp, the Mini-T and Audiolab 8000S I have also tried - no distortion at all.
I don't believe there is an issue with Gator Mk.2, so Stan, please reconsider.
magiccarpetride
07-04-2011, 19:54
Anything with dynamic piano in it.
:eek: That sounds serious. I have tons of tracks with dynamic piano on them, they all play beautifully through Gatorized Caiman. So it definitely is not the DAC alone!
(off topic, but speaking about dynamic piano, I've recently purchased Michel Petrucciani's "Promenade with the Duke" CD -- fantastic solo piano performances, tracked/recorded in a most interesting way -- definitely worth giving it a listen. And oh yes, super dynamic performance, from the deepest bass to the crispiest highs, and beyond, with all the overtones beautifully captured by what sounds like a microphone that was placed INSIDE the piano -- memorable experience)
OK - so my Gator is essentially the "Mk2 prototype" - and is certainly fine into my Creek amp, the Mini-T and Audiolab 8000S I have also tried - no distortion at all.
I don't believe there is an issue with Gator Mk.2, so Stan, please reconsider.
Yeah..
a bit of a harsh reaction, especially considering I went to pains (a few times) to point out IT WAS JUST IN MY SYSTEM and the Gator board I borrowed worked fine in a friends Dac.
Stan's just being a bit of a drama queen ;)
I shall try to find some of the tracks that people have reported problems with, and see if I can recreate the distortion on my setup. I know that some of the Norah Jones tracks are dodgy in their production, and even with a TC-7510 I can hear those recording defects. The Gator would make those defects even more noticeable.
In the mean time, anyone who prefers the original PCB to the Gator(s) that they bought can get in touch with me by email and I shall take the Gator back from you.
FWI Stan, my Gator is fine, including on the Norah Jones tracks. I have observed this cd causing some discomfort with other cd players and dacs.
I wonder if you can confirm if I have a mk I or II? It was recently purchased, and shipped from Taiwan to Singapore. If mk I, it might just be possible that the additional supply coupling I applied to the Gator board might have helped avoid clipping on loud tracks?? It's just a guess.
It would be a pity to retire the Gator option...
chapter three
10-04-2011, 14:51
I've been doing some extensive listening with the Mark 2 Gator. The distortion is now almost non existent. I guess this leads me to think that gain is the problem or maybe it wasn't sitting correctly in the socket as noted in another thread here. The Mark 1 is still no good in my system. I think the distortion on the Mark 1 manifests itself more clearly on recordings that have "space" in them - hence Norah Jones, Peyroux etc. On hard rock it's difficult to pick up amongst (intentionally) distorted guitars etc.
I wonder whether a bit of glue stuff on the gator to seat it properly might help. the original pcb had it after all. Is that possible?
Gazjam - you're PM box is full... :)
sorted! :doh:
So it is! :)
StanleyB
13-04-2011, 08:04
There are two separate issues here. One is the overload distortion resulting from the higher gain on the now sold out MK1, and the other is a distortion noticed on certain recordings.
Judging by the amount of email queries I have received, people are getting confused by some of the things written in this thread over the last week. So I spent a few days contacting a couple of people in order to find out more. What I have figured out so far is that those who ordered the Caiman with the Gator already fitted by me have not noticed any problems.
It's not clear if that's a coincidence, or if it is something else. But I shall start offering the Gator ready fitted to the Caiman as the only option, or as a mod done by me if the DAC is sent back. That way I can exclude/correct any problems that might have cropped up during fitting. It will obviously cost people who want to try the Gator in their standard DAC a bit more, but that could be a good thing.
Peter Galbavy
13-04-2011, 08:17
Stan, I've not had too much time to dedicate to this but I have noticed some audio degredation on certain tracks while the fixed output was plugged into my Audiolab 8000C. I have now instead gone direct from the variable out to my Rotel poweramp and the problem is lessened but not gone away. Do I have a MkI ?
I have specific tracks, typically like the female vocals others have mentioned but also bass heavy electronica, that I think aren't quite "right".
Given I am only down the road, is there any value to me bringing the DAC over to you for checking or is it simply the MkI board in my case ? I recall there is a mod somewhere and I can have a look for it myself.
I have been distracted with my three new boys (of the small feline variety) to be dedicating much time to my ears :)
StanleyB
13-04-2011, 08:20
Hi Peter,
drop the Gator off with me and I shall reduce the gain for you if it is a MK1. If it is a MK2 I'll take it back off you.
Just have to say, that after listening to the Gator for a couple of days now, I am very VERY happy with it and the improvement. Initially I thought the sound was a little harsh, but that has gone and it now sounds very honest (clear, clean, transparent etc etc). This is with the fixed output.
Thanks Stan,
td
Even though I had distortion problems with it, the Gator board itself wasn't the problem, just an incompatibility with my amp.
I am in fact ordering another amp just to get the Gator to work.
Even through the distortion I was hearing I could appreciate the increased resolution, detail and bass.
All round better, and worth having for sure. :)
Ordered my Gator yesterday, delivered this morning.
good service Stan, thanks.
Any "burn in " needed with the Gator, seems to improve over time from what I've read?
ta.
Even though I had distortion problems with it, the Gator board itself wasn't the problem, just an incompatibility with my amp.
I am in fact ordering another amp just to get the Gator to work.
Even through the distortion I was hearing I could appreciate the increased resolution, detail and bass.
All round better, and worth having for sure. :)
Ordered my Gator yesterday, delivered this morning.
good service Stan, thanks.
Any "burn in " needed with the Gator, seems to improve over time from what I've read?
ta.
If there is, I can't say I noticed it - not like I did with the Caiman itself - the Gator sounded great off the bat, and still sounds great. :)
Even though I had distortion problems with it, the Gator board itself wasn't the problem, just an incompatibility with my amp.
.
If Stan is persuaded to continue with these boards the next version could be called the Grator.:sofa:
magiccarpetride
14-04-2011, 16:26
If there is, I can't say I noticed it - not like I did with the Caiman itself - the Gator sounded great off the bat, and still sounds great. :)
Absolutely agree. While I've experienced a very long burn-in with Caiman, no such thing was detected by my largely inadequate ears with the Gator board. So that's two concurring observation (2 Alexs), meaning you can just relax and enjoy the music, Gary:)
If Stan is persuaded to continue with these boards the next version could be called the Grator.:sofa:
very cheesy Rob :)
Im ALWAYS relaxed.... :cool:
good to know, thanks guys
Have to say, Im very glad I didn't just dismiss the Gator board because of the problem with my amp distorting using it.
Used with another amp the sound is fantastic, even (surprisingly to me) an improvement over the Passive mod/film caps my dac had before.
Good upgrade and makes the Dac sound even better, not just louder than the passive mod...but better.
Highly Recommended.
allsorts
27-04-2011, 01:21
Hello there. I have been reading a lot of threads lately (possibly too many) as I'm laid up with a broken leg. Haven't come across any reference (other a pic somewhere) to using a hdam, eg a GD - Audio "Moon" that i used with a Zero 09 dac in lieu of the dual Burr Brown 2604 opamp. I use my caiman strictly as a dac from a macmini to a marantz pm7003.
I wonder whether i could 1) swap it? 2) if yes, do i need to ground it? as it comes with a ground wire with a metal ring at the end; 3) if yes, where would i ground it? I have the extension lead for it so i need to think about best positioning also if i proceed.
Any thoughts on whether it would be worth it? I am just an amateur when it comes to this stuff but the hdam certainly improved the sound of the Zero. I can't remember what opamp it replaced though. LM something i think.
Hello there. I have been reading a lot of threads lately (possibly too many) as I'm laid up with a broken leg. Haven't come across any reference (other a pic somewhere) to using a hdam, eg a GD - Audio "Moon" that i used with a Zero 09 dac in lieu of the lm4562 opamp. I use my caiman strictly as a dac from a macmini to a marantz pm7003.
I wonder whether i could 1) swap it? 2) if yes, do i need to ground it? as it comes with a ground wire with a metal ring at the end; 3) if yes, where would i ground it? I have the extension lead for it so i need to think about best positioning also if i proceed.
My first thought is that you need to be quite familiar with the Gator's power supply. The power is single-ended (+ve and gnd) and as I recall, the opamp is powered by the external p/s without additional regulation.
Any thoughts on whether it would be worth it? I am just an amateur when it comes to this stuff but the hdam certainly improved the sound of the Zero. I can't remember what opamp it replaced though. LM something i think.
I expect the answer is largely determined by what the power requirements are. If it requires dual rails + gnd, or has only moderate CMRR, then it will not work well or worse still not work at all.
allsorts
27-04-2011, 09:03
Thanks Mervinb. The specifics of what you said elude me but I take on board the general idea . Here is some info on the Moon hdam: OPA - Moon : This discrete opamp uses dual differential gain stage and single ended output stage circuit design , we try and audition for a long period of time . The OPA-Moon sound characteristics is a bit of tube-like (vacuum valve) , soft and slightly thick, and full of emotions . THD Less than 0.0008%(1KHz), Operating voltage ：±9 TO ±25V，Open loop gain：33DB，Operating current：Approx. 28MA（Single OPA） ， Approx 58MA（Dual OPA）. I have a dual which was needed to replace the Burr Brown 2604 opamp in my Zero Dac.
bpcairns
08-05-2011, 14:40
I was having a problem with the passive mod in that my power amp and lightspeed combination has a very low input impedance. I needed around 90uf to get the bass response all the way down.
I've just received a gator and it has helped significantly, particularly with dynamics but still the bass extension is a little lacking. Better than small caps in the passive mod but less than with the big caps. Are there caps on the gator board I could change/add to that would help?
In My system the gator does sound much better than the passive mod, This may be largely due to better impedance matching.
On a friends very similar system but without the impedance issues the gator does sound very different to the passive mod. I personally prefer it. More etched, more detail etc but is quite a subtle difference and others may prefer the passive mod.
Any help much appreciated.
Brian
bpcairns
08-05-2011, 15:47
I'd like to clarify the above, I'm only interested in the line out. I don't use headphones at all.
Thanks again.
StanleyB
09-05-2011, 07:12
The bass on the Gator is relatively flat all the way down to 10Hz, with only a small decrease down to 4Hz on my spectrum analyser. If you are looking for a bass lift, then it will be a case of designing some sort of bass boost mod. I'll look into that.
bpcairns
09-05-2011, 15:09
Hi Stan, Thanks for the reply.
It isn't that I need a bass boost. Plugged into a pre-amp the sound is as close to perfect as I've ever heard. problem is the pre-amp isn't mine and has gone home.:scratch: With my passive attenuator I'm getting a bass roll off. It's quite low, I'd guess around 50-60Hz but that's where my speakers start to roll off so the resulting curve is pretty steep. The cause is my power amp's 5K input impedance. Together with the attenuator I think the Caiman is seeing around 1.2K. Yes I know that's really the problem but I can't afford to replace the power amp or buy a matching pre. Not right now anyway, maybe in the future.
If there is nothing that can be altered on the Gator to alter the roll-off then my best bet is to build a buffered version of my attenuator. That would take a bit of time and money so I was exploring the easier options first
The reasons I wondered if the gator could be tuned to this ridiculously low impedance was a post earlier by someone who bought a gator without caps to try the caps he used in his passive mod but he reported this left the sound rather thin, possibly because he used very small value caps where the 33uf oscons are on the gator? Also the 33uf caps in my gator are bipolar so I wondered if they were in the signal path and therefore reacting with the rest of my kit to cause the roll off, just as 33uf causes a similar roll off for me with the passive mod. Would replacing these with something nearer 100uf make any difference?
As you can probably tell I know just enough to be dangerous but not enough to really understand how the gator works.
Sorry if this is all twaddle but I feel as if I'm almost where I want to be. I know the caiman/gator/poweramp/speaker combination is capable of sounding truly excellent but the bass roll off bothers me, especially since I heard it going all the way down with the pre-amp in place.
So, re-cap the gator or build a buffered lightspeed?
P.S. the lightspeed is a sort of virtual pot made out of light dependent resistors in case you were wondering. Got the design from DIYAudio. Another user on here by the name of covenant mentioned having a problem with one before.
Covenant, if you see this you might be interested to know when I plugged my lightspeed into the caiman the other day I got some very bad distortion, like a guitar amp in overdrive. Turned out I had the caiman into the output and the power amp into the input. Switched them round and all in lovely now. Not suggesting you did anything this daft but thought I'd mention it anyway.
Brian
Covenant
09-05-2011, 21:24
Hi Brian,
No its plugged in ok. I never did get to the bottom of this. ATM the LS is not used.
StanleyB
11-05-2011, 08:36
Since the TC-7520SEG case is about 2mm higher internally I have gone back to the THS4032 opamp for headphone listening. But I added an extra mod to the THS4032, which is an extra bit of HF filtering.
I also fitted a couple of WIMA caps since I prefer those when listening to my more detailed D7000 and HD800 headphones. The sound is a lot more 3D. Only really suitable for TOSLINK and Coax input feeds to the DAC though. The USB was less detailed.
http://www.beresford.me/images/TC-7400/g1.jpg
By the way, I got three sets of the WIMA caps left, so I can share them with three good quality headphone users who are skilled in modding.
HighFidelityGuy
11-05-2011, 12:46
Hi Stan, Thanks for the reply.
It isn't that I need a bass boost. Plugged into a pre-amp the sound is as close to perfect as I've ever heard. problem is the pre-amp isn't mine and has gone home.:scratch: With my passive attenuator I'm getting a bass roll off. It's quite low, I'd guess around 50-60Hz but that's where my speakers start to roll off so the resulting curve is pretty steep. The cause is my power amp's 5K input impedance. Together with the attenuator I think the Caiman is seeing around 1.2K. Yes I know that's really the problem but I can't afford to replace the power amp or buy a matching pre. Not right now anyway, maybe in the future.
If there is nothing that can be altered on the Gator to alter the roll-off then my best bet is to build a buffered version of my attenuator. That would take a bit of time and money so I was exploring the easier options first
The reasons I wondered if the gator could be tuned to this ridiculously low impedance was a post earlier by someone who bought a gator without caps to try the caps he used in his passive mod but he reported this left the sound rather thin, possibly because he used very small value caps where the 33uf oscons are on the gator? Also the 33uf caps in my gator are bipolar so I wondered if they were in the signal path and therefore reacting with the rest of my kit to cause the roll off, just as 33uf causes a similar roll off for me with the passive mod. Would replacing these with something nearer 100uf make any difference?
As you can probably tell I know just enough to be dangerous but not enough to really understand how the gator works.
Sorry if this is all twaddle but I feel as if I'm almost where I want to be. I know the caiman/gator/poweramp/speaker combination is capable of sounding truly excellent but the bass roll off bothers me, especially since I heard it going all the way down with the pre-amp in place.
So, re-cap the gator or build a buffered lightspeed?
P.S. the lightspeed is a sort of virtual pot made out of light dependent resistors in case you were wondering. Got the design from DIYAudio. Another user on here by the name of covenant mentioned having a problem with one before.
Covenant, if you see this you might be interested to know when I plugged my lightspeed into the caiman the other day I got some very bad distortion, like a guitar amp in overdrive. Turned out I had the caiman into the output and the power amp into the input. Switched them round and all in lovely now. Not suggesting you did anything this daft but thought I'd mention it anyway.
Brian
Hi Brian,
From what you've said it's obvious to me that the main problem in your system is the 5K input impedance of your amp. This is extremely low and completely unsuitable for use with a passive attenuator of any kind. So modifying your DAC isn't the way forward although using the Gator will obviously help. Putting a buffer between source and Lightspeed may help, one between Lightspeed and amp would probably works better. However, by far the cheapest option would be to simply raise the input impedance of your amp, providing that's possible and something you could do. It's something that's worth looking into anyway. What's the make and model of your amp? :)
howlindawg
11-05-2011, 13:05
I've had the Gator mod running in my Caiman for the last three weeks now and have to say I'm impressed. The change is evolution rather than revolution but the Caiman has definitely taken another step up the quality ladder. The slightly grainy sound that I always felt was present in the stock Caiman is gone and the Music is full and smooth without loosing any of the detail.
It's a well worthwhile mod for anyone running a stock Caiman.
RoboCopper
24-05-2011, 22:15
Hi,
I have made decision to mod my already good sounding Gator board.
I got suggestion that I should change for Panasonic Puerism caps and I am planning to change 4 of them, but original caps are bipolar, my ordered caps are electrolitic positive and negative ones.
As I do not have much experience in electronics I would ask kindly Stan or someone else how can I swap those bipolar caps to pos/neg ones?
Thanks
Hi,
I have made decision to mod my already good sounding Gator board.
I got suggestion that I should change for Panasonic Puerism caps and I am planning to change 4 of them, but original caps are bipolar, my ordered caps are electrolitic positive and negative ones.
As I do not have much experience in electronics I would ask kindly Stan or someone else how can I swap those bipolar caps to pos/neg ones?
Thanks
Nope, non-polar electrolytics cannot be replaced by polar in small signal circuits typically without creating distortion and changing the circuit characteristics... That said, in such a small signal circuit you will probably not cause any damage either. If there is a DC bias across the caps, make certain that you have the caps polarised correctly (ie, positive side of the cap goes to the more positive voltage) or else then you may cause some damage.
You do know that Stan listens to the parts he puts in there and choses the best he can? I'm very happy with My Gator, it's made a significant improvement to the Caiman.
Reid Malenfant
24-05-2011, 22:33
Nope, polar electrolytics cannot be replaced by non-polar in small signal circuits typically without creating distortion and changing the circuit characteristics...
Explain please, or do you mean non polar electrolytics are more problematic simply because effectively they are back to back standard electrolytics?
That said, in such a small signal circuit you will probably not cause any damage either. If there is a DC bias across the caps, make certain that you have the caps polarised correctly (ie, positive side of the cap goes to the more positive voltage) or else then you may cause some damage.
Agreed :)
Explain please, or do you mean non polar electrolytics are more problematic simply because effectively they are back to back standard electrolytics?
Agreed :)
just that non-polar electrolytics are typically used where there is not enough bias to keep the cap polarised through all signal conditions - therefore a non-polar is needed, else a polar cap becomes reverse-biased, which causes all sorts of problems. There are numerous studies, Bateman's and Doug Self's being some of the most rigorous.
RoboCopper
25-05-2011, 06:17
I have already replaced transistors Q1-Q4 to matched (ebay search name: 4 X MATCHED 2SC1775 2SC1775A 2SC1775A (E) TRANSISTOR!).
On the first glimpse, the sound seems tiniest bit fuller, deeper, with more extension at both side of sound spectrum with more details.
Maybe it is not worth the money as Stan's Gator is already excellent sounding board, but I had some spare time on my soldering iron :)
RoboCopper
29-05-2011, 10:51
I have already replaced transistors Q1-Q4 to matched (ebay search name: 4 X MATCHED 2SC1775 2SC1775A 2SC1775A (E) TRANSISTOR!).
On the first glimpse, the sound seems tiniest bit fuller, deeper, with more extension at both side of sound spectrum with more details.
Maybe it is not worth the money as Stan's Gator is already excellent sounding board, but I had some spare time on my soldering iron :)
I found a correct way (experienced friend helped) how the 4 grey Rubyicon bipolar caps can be replaced with polarised Caps.
I have put 4x 47uf 25v Panasonic Pureism caps.
IMO, by replacing matched transistors and Pureism caps, I have got deeper soundstage, sligthly more extensions at both extremas and bit more details. I hope it will improve by burn in. Must burn in with XHLO burnin CD few times.
StanleyB
03-06-2011, 11:08
I have had quite a few emails in the last week or two from people asking if the Gator is only for headphone users. Obviously somewhere along the line something went wrong in a thread and the Gator was suddenly transformed :scratch:.
To make it clear to potential and current Gator owners: The Gator improves the fixed and variable output of the DAC.
Upgrading the headphone output does not require the purchase of a Gator PCB. You can upgrade the headphone output by just replacing the existing opamps in the original audio PCB.
But the Gator PCB replaces the existing audio PCB, which means that the headphone output will also be improved with the Gator as a bonus.
barry-potter
10-06-2011, 20:01
i've read quite a few(actually loads) of pages for mods for the caimen/gator but don't remember seeing anything about changing the resistors. I have a load of welwyn resistors lying about which are quite good. Has anyone tried replacing the resistors with higher grade ones?
audionewbi
27-06-2011, 08:02
can someone please help me on how to mod the gator board so I can get the most out of the akg k702? Thanks
Werner Berghofer
27-06-2011, 09:34
how to mod the gator board so I can get the most out of the akg k702?
What are you missing, what do you want to improve, what do you intend to achieve? Do you operate the AKG K702 directly from the DAC’s headphone plug?
Werner.
audionewbi
28-06-2011, 15:59
What are you missing, what do you want to improve, what do you intend to achieve? Do you operate the AKG K702 directly from the DAC’s headphone plug?
Werner.
i learned if I make the changes it will benifit the k702 alone and will not allow me to enjoy the hfi 780 anymore. I think it is best to leave it untouched and use it as how it is for my remaining cans and save up for a good enough amp for the k702. I feel they lack body and weight.
Werner Berghofer
28-06-2011, 18:36
I feel they lack body and weight.
This is exactly also my opinion. I’ve read very often that the AKG K701 really shine when they are used with a matching amplifier and I really hope and wish for you that you find such an amplifier.
We should keep in mind that the primary purpose of Stanley Beresford’s DACs is the conversion of digital data to analogue signals. Maybe it would be wiser if Stanley would omit the headphone plug in future versions.
I guess my Schiit Valhalla is not the perfect amp for the AKG K701. For me it was not only the not satisfactory sound of these headphones; also the bumps of the headband caused a lot of pain, and after two years of trying to get happy with the K701 against all adverse circumstances I decided to call it a day and switch to another headphone. The Beyerdynamic DT 990 feels very comfortable on my head, and powered by my headphone amplifier eventually body and weight returned to my headphone listening experience.
Did you read what Mark recently wrote about the K701 used with the Caiman (http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=228770&postcount=30)?
Werner.
StanleyB
29-06-2011, 07:16
We should keep in mind that the primary purpose of Stanley Beresford’s DACs is the conversion of digital data to analogue signals. Maybe it would be wiser if Stanley would omit the headphone plug in future versions.
Many people have been encouraged to listen to headphones a lot more after trying out the headphone section on my DACs. Instead of removing the headphone socket, and thereby limiting even further the availability of DACs with a headphone output, an alternative solution would be to offer an improved headphone section as an upgrade for those who need it.
Did you read what Mark recently wrote about the K701 used with the Caiman (http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=228770&postcount=30)?
Be careful with recommending ill informed and inaccurate advise, especially when readers do not stop and question the accuracy of any statement that could determine their final decision on what to buy.
Peter Galbavy
29-06-2011, 07:48
I'm with Stan on this one. There are many solutions ranging in price and flexibility. Some work for me, some for you and so on. If people had the "only the 100% correct solution to any problem" attitude then we wouldn't have an music at all, let alone the equipment to record and play it back on.
Werner Berghofer
29-06-2011, 08:10
Stanley,
limiting even further the availability of DACs with a headphone output
I’m not an expert in this area, but I think there must be a certain reason why many manufacturers of DACs decide against including a headphone section in their products.
an alternative solution would be to offer an improved headphone section as an upgrade for those who need it
This sounds like a good idea, and I shall be watching the further evolution of your products.
Be careful with recommending ill informed and inaccurate advise
Thank you, I acknowledge the warning. Until now it has been my impression that the purpose of this forum is exchanging and sharing of opinions and empirical knowledge. I was not aware that “The Art of Sound” might be some kind of marketing vehicle for your or any other products. If you consider Mark’s comment as ill informed and inaccurate why don’t you post a rectification or explanation in the original thread (http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=228770&postcount=30)?
You know that I really like the DACs sold with the “Beresford” label – come on, there are five of them in my home (2 × TC-7520, 3 × Caiman). They offer a great value for their price, and I recommend them to anyone considering the purchase of a DAC within a certain budget. However, in my opinion the performance of their headphone section leaves a lot to be desired for when used to drive AKG K701 headphones, and I see that I’m not the only person with this opinion. Even you declared (June 20th, 10:00 AM (http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=225760&postcount=17)):
“As I mentioned in previous threads, the headphone section of the Caiman was not designed for high-end usage from the outset. It got upgraded with various tweaks in order to push it to handle high-end cans.”
Why tweak a device to mimic a function it was not designed for originally? A true motorcycle is still very different from a bicycle with an auxiliary engine added later due to popular request.
Werner.
Well having owned a Caiman+ since it came out (later gatorized), it didn't take long for me to order a 7520 SEG when Stan introduced it with his AoS offer.
It is now running in my office feeding a pair of Superlux 668B
Werner Berghofer
29-06-2011, 16:31
It is now running in my office feeding a pair of Superlux 668B
Congratulations! The headphone section of my Caiman DACs works just wunderfully when driving my pair of Sennheiser PX 200, but the synergy between Caiman and AKG K701 headphones is far form perfect.
That’s just all I wanted to express.
Werner.
Peter Galbavy
30-06-2011, 09:39
That’s just all I wanted to express.
You know what? I think we understood that. About 20 posts back.
audionewbi
05-07-2011, 11:07
please do not get me wrong, I love the DAC and AMP ability of the gator, it is a perfect match most of my cans and i am so happy it has that instead of not having it all. I love it and for most cans it is a perfect all in one solution.
HighFidelityGuy
28-07-2011, 22:51
I finally got round to fitting a gator board in my Caiman at the weekend. The poor thing had been sat in it's box for months. Compared to the sound I was getting with the passive mod in place I now seem to be getting better dynamics, finer detail and a generally more energetic and more captivating sound. I was a bit worried I would get way too much gain from the gator but the the extra gain is just about manageable and I'm not getting any distortion. I'm definitely getting the best sound quality I've ever had now, so I'm very happy. Thanks Stan. :cool: I can also now re-fit the lid on my Caiman for the first time in a year. That's if I can find it and it's screws. I put them safe somewhere. :doh:
Hi, Ive been following the threads on getting the most from the Beresford Caiman and Gator for the last few months. Thanks for all the useful info that's been posted. Ive now started upgrading my Beresford Caiman using Tirna Electronics kit. Here is the difficulty I'm encountering: My Gator board came with 6 grey 33uf rubycon caps and a pair of yellow mono block caps rated at 22nf. This appears to be different from the picture on the homehifi website which shows a Gator board with black caps and a pair of 47uf monoblocks. I have successfully swapped out the grey 33ufs for black 47uf rubycons. However, I have tried to swap the 22nf yellow monoblocks for 68nf wima caps. The result was an extremely low level of signal from the fixed output and an overdriven sound from the variable output. If anyone has any useful input into the way forward for me concerning these monoblocks or if you encountered this version of the board and managed to upgrade the monoblocks please let me know. Cheers much.
StanleyB
08-08-2011, 23:19
I have successfully swapped out the grey 33ufs for black 47uf rubycons.
Those grey caps were the best of all the caps tested, and are now no longer available on the market. I bought up the last remaining stock from the shelves of everyone who had some. I am now using the black ones, but the Gator fitted with grey caps is still the best sounding version.
Not sure why you swapped over the 22nF.
Thanks Stan.
From the pictures I can see online, most Gator boards are supplied with yellow 47nf monoblock caps located either side of the opamp. My understanding was that those caps could be upgraded to 68nf Wima monoblocks. (This was part of the Tirna upgrade kit). My gator came with 22nf monoblocks either side of the opamp. It was those I was attempting to upgrade to 68nf Wima caps.
Am I right that yellow 47nf caps are situated either side of the opamp on most Gator boards? Or do they all have 22nf same as mine?
Could I upgrade those caps to 22nf wima caps (if they are higher quality than original caps) or some other value of wima caps 33nf or 47nf?
HighFidelityGuy
09-08-2011, 10:49
Doug, I think the mods you are applying to your Gator board are supposed to be for the standard Caiman/7520 opamp board. I think there are two tweaks available for the Gator boards, one that optimises it for a particular model of headphone and one that adjusts the gain. The latter was mainly for the first version of the Gator and it sounds like you have the latest version. I don't think Tirna sell either of these. So I would recommend that you put your Gator board back to how it was and concentrate on modding the main boards in the Caiman with the new regs and Elna caps. :)
Thanks for the advice. I think you are right, the upgrade was designed for the original board. I might choose to keep the 47uf rubycons in place though as they seem to give a little more body to the sound. I am going to try 22nf WIMA monoblocks in place of the standard blocks and see if that improves the sound any.
I have fitted the murata regs which sound great and I've started replacing the main board caps.
Thanks also goes to Jimmy Dripps at Tirna Electronics for being very helpful in giving soldering techniques and for fixing up a soldering mistake of mine.
One for Stan methinks...
If the non switching regulators I have on order fix my "whistling" problem, I wont go back to the passive mod - the Gator stays.
If so, I'd like to get rid of both the black sockets the Gator fits into on the PCB and hard solder it in.
Any problems with this approach Stan?
Does the board need a particular clearance from the main PCB or....?
I noticed the background whistling changes slightly if I refit the board..suggesting the interface between the Gator and main pcb might be a factor.
If so..I want to hard solder it in.
Advisable?
thanks.
Thanks also goes to Jimmy Dripps at Tirna Electronics for being very helpful in giving soldering techniques and for fixing up a soldering mistake of mine.
Another very big thumbs up for Dr. Jimmy from me also - very helpful, very capable in all aspects of audio electronic, good turnround, reasonable prices and all round nice guy to boot :) - highly recommended.
Dave.
HighFidelityGuy
09-08-2011, 17:31
One for Stan methinks...
If the non switching regulators I have on order fix my "whistling" problem, I wont go back to the passive mod - the Gator stays.
If so, I'd like to get rid of both the black sockets the Gator fits into on the PCB and hard solder it in.
Any problems with this approach Stan?
Does the board need a particular clearance from the main PCB or....?
I noticed the background whistling changes slightly if I refit the board..suggesting the interface between the Gator and main pcb might be a factor.
If so..I want to hard solder it in.
Advisable?
thanks.
The legs on the Gator board aren't long enough to reach through the PCB as the headphone socket and two lytic caps are in the way. I've removed those and soldered my Gator in place and I still get the whistle. Doing this also removes the headphone output and the variable line output. So it's not for everyone. Another way would be to replace the Gator's pins with longer ones but you would then run the risk of not having enough hight in the case. :)
Dave,
your Waaay ahead of me chum! :)
Dexa's on their way from Canada - might even come tomorrow (he says hopefully :)) and will fit them asap.
I'll post when Ive had a chance to hear them.
Thanks for the advice about the Gator board folks. I completed the upgrade to Elna caps on the main board today. It sounds deeper and fuller with the Elna's with more bass definition and control. I'll post more details about the upgrade in an appropriate thread for the Caiman.
The Caiman with Elna upgrades is working, however there is a volume discrepancy between channels. The left channel is approx half as loud as the right. This happens in both the fixed output and headphone output. Has anyone any idea what might cause this?
Is anyone able to tell me which capacitors are in the analogue section of the left (white) channel. I am deducing that this is where the fault lies as the fault is simply a difference in volume between channels. The left is approx half that of the right. However the fault affects all 3 of the outputs (fixed, variable and headphone). If anyone is able to tell me which caps affect this section of the Caiman it would be much appreciated.
HighFidelityGuy
12-08-2011, 09:50
Do you have a multimeter? If so the L and R analogue outputs from the DAC chip pass over onto the front PCB via the right ribbon cable (when looking at the DAC from the front). The wires in the ribbon cables are marked on the PCB. You'll see L, R and probably G for ground. If you test the continuity between the ribbon connections and the Gator board's left pin header you should be able to find which pin on the Gator is L and which is R. Then follow the PCB trace from the relevant pin and you'll come to the first coupling cap near the edge of the board. After that it will get more complicated as the signal will go through transistors etc. The Gator's left pin header is for L in, L out, R in, R out and ground but I forget the order. There's a diagram somewhere in the passive output mod thread if you don't have a multimeter. :)
Thanks HighFidelityGuy I will spend some quality time with the multimeter and try to source the problem.
StanleyB
09-09-2011, 07:51
The TC-7520SEG Gatorized Caiman case is about 2mm higher than the standard Caiman case. I did this so that I could get back to trying out some alternative opamps that require an adapter PCB.
My most favourite is the THS4023 opamp. The picture shows the THS4032 with some decoupling mods around it, which helps to control the THS4032 RF capabilities. Note that I am using 10nF for that purpose.
A couple of WIMA caps in place of the standard ceramic caps in the audio path help to give a bit more depth and soundstage in recordings that have hints of reverberations or echo within the recording environment.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/Gator4032.jpg
The THS4032 has the low bass of the AD826 and the clinical highs of the LM4562. This is immensely suitable for my D7000 and HD650 headphones.
I hope to do a couple of more minor mods on my Gator and see if I can squeeze any more out of it.
Hi Stan,
Keep up the good work - it sounds interesting (sorry :lol: ).
Are you able to make the new lid available as a stand alone item? I ask because some of us have standard 7520 cases into which they have put adapter boards and twin single op-amps. I realise that this would leave a 2mm gap along the front and back top but that would be better than no lid and might aid cooling ventilation ;) .
Cheers,
Dave.
StanleyB
09-09-2011, 08:32
Sorry Dave, but there are logistical problems on that one.
Understood Stan, no problem.
Dave.
Can't you just use a large block of metal as a punch and bash the inside of the lid so that it is proud?
You know I am barking don't you! Woof:band:
StanleyB
09-09-2011, 13:28
See my new topic on the Caiman case :).
StanleyB
13-02-2012, 23:50
As we proceed...:
The following is how I did the Silmic mod on the standard Gator board.
I'll amend the text in due time, but here are the pics for now:
First remove the big electrolytic caps.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/aos/S1.jpg
StanleyB
13-02-2012, 23:52
Now fit the 100uF caps.
Note that the board on the LEFT is for fitting inside an SE case. The board on the RIGHT is for fitting inside a SEG case.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/aos/S2.jpg
StanleyB
13-02-2012, 23:55
Now fit the 33uf or 47uF caps. You can use either type, but 33uF seems to sound best in case of the Silmic.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/aos/S3.jpg
This is the basic mod. Just fit your opamp of choice, and you can start enjoying the richer sound that the Silmic offers.
To be continued..
Covenant
14-02-2012, 08:26
Thanks Stan, you say it's the basic mod. Is there more alterations you are thinking of?
Hope you are feeling better by the way.
howlindawg
14-02-2012, 09:05
Every time I see a new addition to this thread I start to wish that I still had my Caiman so that I could join in the fun.
I'm running out of toys to tweak!
Canetoad
14-02-2012, 10:07
Where can we source the caps from Stan? :)
StanleyB
14-02-2012, 10:43
Thanks Stan, you say it's the basic mod. Is there more alterations you are thinking of?
I never stop :lol:.
Hope you are feeling better by the way.
A lot better thanks. The old lungs are not what they used to be :rolleyes:.
StanleyB
14-02-2012, 10:56
Where can we source the caps from Stan? :)
I have no immediate idea. I did however source about 25 pairs of the 100uF and about 40 sets of the 33uF from Taiwan. Plus I also sourced the bits for the TOKO coil, WIMA cap (came from the US), and Vishay cap (sourced from Cyprus) mods that are to follow. But those mods are still under evaluation. The TOKO mod needs access to a mini drill though, which is likely to be of less interest to those without a mini drill.
I was thinking of putting a kit together from the bits that I do have and offer it on a first come first serve basis. I got to work out how much it all cost me including postage. But I reckon I can make up the kits at between £15 to £20 with postage to the UK. Add £4 extra for anywhere in the EU. Not sure about further afield. I can supply a blank Gator PCB as depicted in the first picture as well if required for £18.
brian2957
14-02-2012, 11:25
Hi Stan , are these mods for all users or just for headphone users as I don't use headphones . If they're for all users can you please tell me if you're considering offering a supply and fit service . If not can you please put me down for one of these upgrade kits if they are suitable for non-headphone users also.
Thanks,
Brian.
StanleyB
14-02-2012, 12:13
Hi Stan , are these mods for all users or just for headphone users as I don't use headphones . If they're for all users can you please tell me if you're considering offering a supply and fit service . If not can you please put me down for one of these upgrade kits if they are suitable for non-headphone users also.
Thanks,
Brian.
The mod can be separated into FIXED output only -> Variable output -> Headphone output. So the fixed output can be modded with having to add the others. But you can't do the headphone of variable output mod, without doing the fixed mod.
It's supposed to be a hobbyist DIY project to occupy the time spent indoors for the winter ;). Where is the fun in getting it done by someone else?
Anyhow, I am sure we can come to an arrangement.
The mod can be separated into FIXED output only -> Variable output -> Headphone output. So the fixed output can be modded with having to add the others. But you can't do the headphone of variable output mod, without doing the fixed mod.
It's supposed to be a hobbyist DIY project to occupy the time spent indoors for the winter ;). Where is the fun in getting it done by someone else?
Anyhow, I am sure we can come to an arrangement.
Stan,
As a long standing confirmed fan of the Caiman/Gator can I put my name down for one of your kit of parts and, subject to confirmation by the gentlemen concerned, can you also put Gaz and Covenant's names on 2 more please - first come, first served and all that :) .
TIA,
Dave.
Where can we source the caps from Stan? :)
See HiFiCollective - don't know how their prices compete but we're not talking mega-bucks are we? :) .
Dave.
Canetoad
14-02-2012, 12:48
Stan,
Put me down for a kit too. I have 2 Gators. It will be interesting to compare the differences. :)
Canetoad
14-02-2012, 12:50
Are they bipolar caps Stan? :scratch:
Stan,
I can now confirm our definite requirement for two such kits (fully monty, both outputs) and hope to make it 3 later tonight. To keep the costs down we would want all 3 kits shipping to the same address to be advised later.
Cheers,
Dave.
If the stuff can be got from "HiFi Collective," then if Stan can provide a list, it's easy to order from them directly - the P&P isn't very high either and delivery extremely prompt (I've used them a lot recently).
Stan,
Please accept this post as a firm order fo 3 (three) full set of components for the above mods. Please advise when they are available and I will forward payment for all three (to meet your requirements) and the single delivery address for all three kits.
Any problems, please PM me.
TIA,
Dave.
Stan,
I can now confirm our definite requirement for two such kits (fully monty, both outputs) and hope to make it 3 later tonight. To keep the costs down we would want all 3 kits shipping to the same address to be advised later.
Cheers,
Dave.
Me too! Also interested in a full set.
Stan, is the "blank board" coming with all components but the caps fitted? Also Interested in one!
Iron already heating up. Cheers,
cz
Canetoad
15-02-2012, 08:17
I can confirm 1 full set thanks Stan.
StanleyB
15-02-2012, 08:46
Hi Dave and everyone else. I shall send each of you a PM to confirm the finer details. I have a bit of a work load to catch up with, so excuse my patchy responses.
The optional Gator board will be in the same state as the one in the first picture in the cases where the headphone section upgrade is not required.
StanleyB
15-02-2012, 12:47
Are they bipolar caps Stan? :scratch:
Yes they are, and not easy to find..
RoboCopper
15-02-2012, 12:51
What is marking on them Stan? what suggested values?
Elna BP or something?
Can Muse BP apply in this mod with similar success?
I'm quite impressed with the Muse BP's I have and use. Cheap too :)
StanleyB
15-02-2012, 19:37
There have been various discussions about caps to try with the Gator. So the project is not limited to the use of the Elna Silmic bipolar caps. This section of the thread is however about the use of the Silmic, plus a few other mods.
Feel free to experiment however :).
StanleyB
15-02-2012, 19:39
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/S4A.jpg
StanleyB
15-02-2012, 19:41
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/S5A.jpg
Covenant
15-02-2012, 20:44
What does the coil do Stan? (And don't say it's a form of contraception)
StanleyB
15-02-2012, 20:50
It gives a cleaner and more detailed treble. It is part of the fixed output mod. But it is worth trying out the PCB with and without the coil.
RoboCopper
15-02-2012, 21:33
Damn, why I sold my Caiman with Gator now when this mod is out?
I guess it is because I got decent offer and needed money for Bushmaster.
I cant wait, I hope Bushmaster is sounding better than Caiman with Elna Gator with better power suply? Stan?
Covenant
16-02-2012, 19:37
Stan, are the green Vishay caps and the coil included in the kit? It would help our installer if we could know now so that he can order them if necessary.
StanleyB
16-02-2012, 19:55
Of course.
Covenant
17-02-2012, 19:54
If anyone is looking for a competent person to fit the new parts I can recommend Sean:
custom.hifi.cables@gmail.com
I don't think you could beat his prices and he knows what he is doing. I have no connection other than having used his services in the past.
^+1 He makes a damn good headphone amp too, the HA10, best in it's price range I suspect.
Dave.
brian2957
17-02-2012, 21:22
Stan , can you please put me down for one of these kits.
Thanks,
Brian.
StanleyB
17-02-2012, 22:02
Stan , can you please put me down for one of these kits.
Thanks,
Brian.
I got the one that I used for the pics all ready to be fitted for you ;). Just email me further instructions.
brian2957
17-02-2012, 22:21
You have PM Stan
brian2957
18-02-2012, 15:54
Sent another PM Stan
Canetoad
19-02-2012, 07:14
Hi Stan, received the kit yesterday and installed yesterday afternoon.
Just when you thought you couldn't get any more out of a Caiman/Gator combination, something new comes along! Mine is sounding very nice indeed! :eyebrows:
I spent all afternoon listening to music and wondering at the depth of detail I am now getting! Bass is still siesmic and mids/uppers are extremely detailed and realistic! :eek:
A worthwhile upgrade for the money! :cool:
You have PM Stan
Down for 2 kits
StanleyB
19-02-2012, 12:33
Just when you thought you couldn't get any more out of a Caiman/Gator combination, something new comes along!
And there is still more bite left in those teeth I reckon ;). Not a bad upgrade for little more than the cost of two pints down my local.
Stick a Mark Grant or Lurcher power supply at the DC input and you have a high-end DAC system for next to peanuts.
One day again, I hope to regard a couple of hundred notes as "peanuts":scratch:
One day again, I hope to regard a couple of hundred notes as "peanuts":scratch:
Sadly, too often in the world of hi-fi audiophilia, it is, but folks like Stan are doing their best to prove that it does not have to be.
For my part, my soon-to-be-modded Caiman/Gator is fed by an ex-eBay (el cheapo) linear PSU through a small regulator module (made on breadboard by a member here) through a JLH Ripple Eater, (total cost really was 'peanuts') and I'm very happy. As and when the modded B-DAC lifts it a little higher I shall be even happier :) .
Did I mention I am born and bred in Yorkshire? :lol:
Dave.
Canetoad
19-02-2012, 13:32
And there is still more bite left in those teeth I reckon ;). Not a bad upgrade for little more than the cost of two pints down my local.
Stick a Mark Grant or Lurcher power supply at the DC input and you have a high-end DAC system for next to peanuts.
I already have a PSU using a SuperTeddyReg feeding the DAC 15.8v. Mods to the main board include Dexa regs and Silmic II caps.
I can't hear any background noise at all when listening to quieter sections of music. As a result I can hear all the micro detail in the recording. :eyebrows:
Vey pleased with the results of the latest mods. :)
Did I mention I am born and bred in Yorkshire?
aka a born and bred cheap bastard :lol:
Hmm still trying to get to grips with the "stereo types"... here I thought that scotsmen were considered the notorious penny pinchers:eyebrows:
brian2957
19-02-2012, 13:47
aka a born and bred cheap bastard :lol:
Hmm still trying to get to grips with the "stereo types"... here I thought that scotsmen were considered the notorious penny pinchers:eyebrows:
Cheeky boy:D
brian2957
19-02-2012, 13:48
Hi Stan you have PM.
Brian.
Covenant
19-02-2012, 13:52
DaveK-I guess when you add it up, over a few years, we have spent a few bob on our 7520's. Think about it:
Wolfson dac chip
Murata regulators
Silmic capacitor upgrade
Gator board
Gator Simic upgrade
15v linear supply
My memory is hazy over the price of individual parts but I would guess about £200 in my case. Was the 7520 about £150? So I wonder what you could get for £350 now? It wouldn't buy you, for example, a Rega or Mdac which ours must be very close in quality to.
StanleyB
19-02-2012, 14:10
DaveK-I guess when you add it up, over a few years, we have spent a few bob on our 7520's. Think about it:
Wolfson dac chip
Murata regulators
Silmic capacitor upgrade
Gator board
Gator Simic upgrade
15v linear supply
My memory is hazy over the price of individual parts but I would guess about £200 in my case. Was the 7520 about £150? So I wonder what you could get for £350 now?
:eek:. Is it THAT much already? I better let this topic run its course before it does any more damage to the depleted wallets.
aka a born and bred cheap bastard :lol:
Hmm still trying to get to grips with the "stereo types"... here I thought that scotsmen were considered the notorious penny pinchers:eyebrows:
Scotsmen do have the reputation for being a bit 'tight' with their money, but so do Yorkshire folk, particularly the older ones - I qualify on both counts :lol: and I understand my surname has Scottish origins.
Bar steward would be preferable to bastard though from someone I don't know - no offence taken but the next Brit you call a bastard might not be so easy going, particularly if you were face to face.
Covenant
19-02-2012, 14:20
No no no Stan, keep the mods coming, money is not the issue honestly.
Canetoad
19-02-2012, 14:23
The innards of my Caiman after yesterdays update. :)
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/7302/dscf0208uw.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/38/dscf0208uw.jpg/)
brian2957
19-02-2012, 14:24
Don't know about you guys but over the years I've discovered that over a period of time , sometimes months , sometimes years , my ears seem to get 'used' to the sound of my system and I start to look to improve the performance . That's when 'upgradeitis ' begins to take a grip . TBH if I can keep getting the improvements that I get with Stan's upgrades I will be more than happy and probably much better off . I've spent a lot of money in the past to achieve much smaller upgrades in sound than I've ever spent on one of Stan's outstanding modifications. IMHO Stan's DACs and mods are fantastic value for money . Long may it continue.:)
Brian.
brian2957
19-02-2012, 14:30
The innards of my Caiman after yesterdays update. :)
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/7302/dscf0208uw.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/38/dscf0208uw.jpg/)
Thanks for the Photo Bernie , I'm waiting for a new board to arrive in the next few days . This may come in handy.
Brian.
DaveK-I guess when you add it up, over a few years, we have spent a few bob on our 7520's. Think about it:
Wolfson dac chip
Murata regulators
Silmic capacitor upgrade
Gator board
Gator Simic upgrade
15v linear supply
My memory is hazy over the price of individual parts but I would guess about £200 in my case. Was the 7520 about £150? So I wonder what you could get for £350 now? It wouldn't buy you, for example, a Rega or Mdac which ours must be very close in quality to.
And don't forget the op-amps we've rolled - most not costing mega-bucks but they all add up. My most expensive (and sonically rewarding) are a pair of round metal 111s on a two-into-one adapter - ridiculously expensive ATM but I managed to get mine for a reasonable price. And then there's the expensive (damp seal foil with mastick ;) ) case dampening that I did, a more subtle improvement. And I had a shielded 2 core power lead made up, by the usual suspect, from JLH RE to B-DAC.
All done seperately so it doesn't have an immediate impact on the wallet.
Dave.
No no no Stan, keep the mods coming, money is not the issue honestly.
Plus one for the above comment Stan, from me. When things get tight at our end of the wealth spectrum, as they regularly do, thanks to the 'experts' we somehow finish up with running the country and it's financial system, what we need is value for what little disposable cash we have. Your products fit that description admirably IMHO. Great 'sound per pound' return, so please keep up the good work :) .
Dave.
StanleyB
19-02-2012, 14:53
And there was me busy designing the Bushmaster to be almost upgrade resistant :lol:.
howlindawg
19-02-2012, 15:05
And there was me busy designing the Bushmaster to be almost upgrade resistant :lol:.
Don't you dare, we'd never forgive you! :ner:
Sadly, too often in the world of hi-fi audiophilia, it is, but folks like Stan are doing their best to prove that it does not have to be.
For my part, my soon-to-be-modded Caiman/Gator is fed by an ex-eBay (el cheapo) linear PSU through a small regulator module (made on breadboard by a member here) through a JLH Ripple Eater, (total cost really was 'peanuts') and I'm very happy. As and when the modded B-DAC lifts it a little higher I shall be even happier :) .
Did I mention I am born and bred in Yorkshire? :lol:
Dave.
Sure there's a bit of Glaswegian in you Dave....
aka a born and bred cheap bastard :lol:
Hmm still trying to get to grips with the "stereo types"... here I thought that scotsmen were considered the notorious penny pinchers:eyebrows:
Hey watch it or I'll "set aboot ye"!
The innards of my Caiman after yesterdays update. :)
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/7302/dscf0208uw.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/38/dscf0208uw.jpg/)
Looking good Bernie,
that a couple of Panasonic smoothing caps you got there too?
Plus one for the above comment Stan, from me. When things get tight at our end of the wealth spectrum, as they regularly do, thanks to the 'experts' we somehow finish up with running the country and it's financial system, what we need is value for what little disposable cash we have. Your products fit that description admirably IMHO. Great 'sound per pound' return, so please keep up the good work :) .
Dave.
+1
StanleyB
19-02-2012, 19:02
I have been getting an increasing amount of request for a Caiman SEG with the Silmic mod over the last couple of days. As I don't have any SEG cases left I am going to have to ask the case maker if he is prepared to make say 25 to 50 cases, even if I have to pay him a bit more for the cases.
So anyone who would like to put their name down for the SEG Silmic version should PM or email me their email address so that I can send them a notification when and on which page on my site they can order one from.
Canetoad
20-02-2012, 09:59
Looking good Bernie,
that a couple of Panasonic smoothing caps you got there too?
Yes, Gaz. On the advice of MartinT. It's sounding pretty good at the moment too! :eyebrows:
I had an accident with my smoothing cap where it burst and leaked electrolyte all over the PCB!
Cleaned it all up and replaced it with this:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=221168&postcount=42
Looks lost in there doesn't it? :)
Good improvement over the stock one too.
Canetoad
21-02-2012, 13:58
Yes, I read that thread. I was glad you got it sorted. :)
How are the Dexa regs performing for you now?
brian2957
21-02-2012, 21:58
You have PM Stan.:)
StanleyB
21-02-2012, 22:00
You have PM Stan.:)
I would have preferred if you let the rest of the AoS community know your opinion of the upgrade, instead of sending it to me via PM :). I already know that it works great, which is why I made it available ;).
brian2957
21-02-2012, 22:12
I was going to wait a few days as I like to provide feedback after a few hours of listening Stan . However as I stated in the PM first impressions of this modified board are very positive indeed. The music now appears to have much more depth and weight . Getting more , cleaner ,bass .I'm hearing more detail in the midrange and treble . Instruments which I could barely hear before are now present and clear. Looks like it's going to be a late night:eyebrows: . The last time I heard Sade sound so good I was the owner of an expensive turntable ;)
I don't know if this board is 'run' in but if it stays like this I'll be more than happy . Thanks for a cracking service and a fantastic upgrade Stan . I'll get back in a couple of days .
Brian.
Hi Stan,
I'm happy to commit myself, I got my board today after a commercial friend installed the components for me - I'm useless with a soldering iron and don't know what I'm doing electrically - and I'm very pleased with the result.
First a minor point for others doing the mod: IMO the coil should be installed bent very slightly inboard as mine, fitted with the base flush to the board very slightly fouled the neighbouring PCB - note: it did not stop the board from seating properly but there is definitely contact between coil and board when the board is fully seated.
The words that spring first to my mind are realism and detail, better focus. This was very noticeable when listening to red book CD FLAC rips through headphones direct from the HP socket on the B-DAC. When the signal was routed from B-DAC fixed output to headphone amp the improvement was similarly noticeable.
When I tried Hi-Res FLAC playback there was also an improvement compared with the same path pre board mod but it was not so signifiant as for Red Book rips.
I have not done any listening through speakers yet but can think of no reason why the improvement should not be as noticeable - I'll let you know ;) .
FWIW another member of our threesome who followed the same mod path has found similar improvement but as he's more 'golden eared' (and 'golden tongued') than I am I'll let him post his own report, hopefully shortly :) .
The third member managed to be out when the postie delivered his mod'd board so his findings are still awaited.
Dave.
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