View Full Version : Full on Digital
Being a digital and solid state audio enthusiast on this forum is much like being a Japanese motorbike enthusiast in a bikers club in the late 70’s; your mates stop talking to you, you learn to endure the “jap crap” and rice burner” jibes and eventually you get used to waiting for the Brit Iron and Harley boys to catch up with you when you go on a run.
Even the motor bike enthusiast mags ran them down writing about ignoring the specs, threats to the British bike industry, lack of style and build quality, jap may go faster but didn’t handle etc, very similar to “discussions” you get on this forum with regard to digital v analogue :doh:
Sure, they didn’t look as nice, they didn’t have the same throaty sound, and they didn’t get the admiring glances from other bikers, they didn’t have all the chrome and fancy paint jobs, even the girls didn’t want to be seen on the back. But, put one on a track and the truth became self evident; they outperformed the Brit Irons in every respect :ner:
Well, time told in the end didn’t it; the “ah buts”, and the “cant beat a good twin”, huddled together in enthusiasts groups by the roadside clutching their drip trays and tool boxes while the converts pulled wheelies, broke 0 to 60 personal bests and went around corners at impossible angles :lol:
Oh arr, digital amps; I’ve got my mates Nuforce 8.5V3 stereo power and P9 pre amp on loan for a few days. You’re not going to want to hear this but……
Ah f**k it, wasting my time trying to tell you lot. You wouldn’t believe me anyway :brickwall:
I’ll leave you to your valve polishing, record player adjusting, crackle and pop vinyl and just listen to these while I can :)
(anyone know of a easy bank to rob :scratch:)
Reid Malenfant
07-01-2011, 14:28
:lolsign: Top post John.
I guess it sounds quite nice then :exactly:
John, you can look this in a few ways.
1) people listen for different attributes so what suits one person may not suit another.
2) these are toys we're playing with so constant attention to maintain them (like British bikes) is part of the fun.
3) playing records involved a ceremony, tea bags vs loose tea in a teapot, again part of the enjoyment.
Yes it's about music but it's also about an emotional attachment to the way the music is played.
Being a digital and solid state audio enthusiast on this forum is much like being a Japanese motorbike enthusiast in a bikers club in the late 70’s; your mates stop talking to you, you learn to endure the “jap crap” and rice burner” jibes and eventually you get used to waiting for the Brit Iron and Harley boys to catch up with you when you go on a run.
Even the motor bike enthusiast mags ran them down writing about ignoring the specs, threats to the British bike industry, lack of style and build quality, jap may go faster but didn’t handle etc, very similar to “discussions” you get on this forum with regard to digital v analogue :doh:
Sure, they didn’t look as nice, they didn’t have the same throaty sound, and they didn’t get the admiring glances from other bikers, they didn’t have all the chrome and fancy paint jobs, even the girls didn’t want to be seen on the back. But, put one on a track and the truth became self evident; they outperformed the Brit Irons in every respect :ner:
Well, time told in the end didn’t it; the “ah buts”, and the “cant beat a good twin”, huddled together in enthusiasts groups by the roadside clutching their drip trays and tool boxes while the converts pulled wheelies, broke 0 to 60 personal bests and went around corners at impossible angles :lol:
Oh arr, digital amps; I’ve got my mates Nuforce 8.5V3 stereo power and P9 pre amp on loan for a few days. You’re not going to want to hear this but……
Ah f**k it, wasting my time trying to tell you lot. You wouldn’t believe me anyway :brickwall:
I’ll leave you to your valve polishing, record player adjusting, crackle and pop vinyl and just listen to these while I can :)
(anyone know of a easy bank to rob :scratch:)
Don't tar us all with the same brush John. I'm a fan of solid-state amplification as well as digital reproduction. I have more CDs than I do LPs (about a thousand) and only post about 'exotic' record playing techniques because I want to get the best out of my LPs for which there are not, as yet, CD versions.
I 'm certainly interested in hearing about the Nuforce power amps; despite some luke-warm reviews in the audio press, I would place more credence in a review written by a member of AoS than that of a magazine hack.
Regards
Being a digital and solid state audio enthusiast on this forum is much like being a Japanese motorbike enthusiast in a bikers club in the late 70’s; your mates stop talking to you, you learn to endure the “jap crap” and rice burner” jibes and eventually you get used to waiting for the Brit Iron and Harley boys to catch up with you when you go on a run.
LOL! I don't know about digital, but I hold my system up high as an example of what solid state can sound like when done right. Nobody laughs at my system after they've heard it :eyebrows:
I didn't get my byline by accident...
Ammonite Audio
07-01-2011, 16:37
Oh arr, digital amps; I’ve got my mates Nuforce 8.5V3 stereo power and P9 pre amp on loan for a few days. You’re not going to want to hear this but……
Ah f**k it, wasting my time trying to tell you lot. You wouldn’t believe me anyway
I’ll leave you to your valve polishing, record player adjusting, crackle and pop vinyl and just listen to these while I can
Where do I sit in the HiFi continuum? I use a true digital Lyngdorf amplifier with a 40-something years old Thorens TD124 and a valve-driven Paul Hynes phono stage! The Lyngdorf has a 24/96 ADC card inside and is as sweet and lucid as anything else that I've tried, whether solid state or valve.
Even I, with my valves and TTs, have SS amps with DSP on my basses which run from 100Hz downwards.
The Vinyl Adventure
07-01-2011, 17:07
Hey hey hey ... I have a linn source and active speakers ... How do you think I feel posting round these parts, if it wasn't for the box of valves with "aos classic series" I would have been kicked out the door long ago ;)
Reid Malenfant
07-01-2011, 17:12
The only valves in this house are in a weird Philips case in the greenhouse :eyebrows: Perhaps i ought to take a look & see what they are :scratch:
Ali Tait
07-01-2011, 17:17
Currently using a pair of Bantam Audio Golds. Sound pretty good to me!
Hey hey hey ... I have a linn source and active speakers ... How do you think I feel posting round these parts, if it wasn't for the box of valves with "aos classic series" I would have been kicked out the door long ago ;)
Hamish, you're a mere amateur when it comes to the leprosy stacks :lol:
I'll see you're Linn/active speakers, and I'll raise you a Naim Olive 72/hicap/250 in a nice sparse room with wobbly laminate flooring.
Pipe and slippers anyone?
I'll get me coat shall I :)
For those of you who have your eyes attached to your ears and then to your wallets and get all confused when the brain can’t correlate the inconsistencies, don’t read this.
I couldn’t really give a toss what my kit looks like. I listen to my stereo, every day; in the background, serious listening sessions, file audio, tuner, internet radio, DVD’s, Games……. performance and price is all I’m interested in.
I don’t do the emotional involvement with shiny boxes bit, or the rituals, or the “look what I’ve got” display (except to any women who hangs around long enough for me to get my trousers down :eyebrows:)
Hi Fi a tool to do a job, reproduce music and sounds.
My mate feeds these amps with a metric halo ULN8 via balanced cables so I hooked up the HRT Pro which performs best in properly balanced kit and the custom built 5V 1 amp USB galavanically isolated power supply.
When I first sat down to listen to this Nuforce kit the contrast compared to my current Exposure amp was so pronounced I thought something had broken. It’s seriously different :scratch:
I can only describe it by comparing it to moving from vinyl to CD, the lack of background noise is startling.
My speakers are built around some seriously good drivers. The next most noticeable thing was how these amps gripped these drivers. If you can imagine an amp giving the driver cone a push to set it in motion and than letting go until the next push, the Nuforce amps seemed to hold on to the drivers throughout their motion so these are fast amps with excellent damping.
I can imagine these amps not performing well with a lot of speakers and that’s a major consideration :(
All stereo systems construct soundstages which is basically an illusion. The solidity, width and positioning of these stages is often used by reviewers to judge system quality; wide and deep being good, narrow and shallow being bad (honestly, what a load of bollocks) These amps didn’t seem to alter the soundstage my speakers set but what they do is separate the instruments more noticeably and, something that is just particular to my system I think, stopped chucking the occasional instrument off the stage completely :lolsign:
Both my Exposure and Quantum amps verge on the enthusiastic, not quite harsh with my speakers but more suitable for pop than classical. These Nuforce amps sound more neutral without losing pace and involvement.
Hi res needs a lot of amp bandwidth and tbh, the Hi Res tracks I have don’t sound that noticeably better using the Exposure amp than Redbook. The Nuforce fared a lot better with Hi Res tracks; more detail and better dynamics.
The lack of colour/tone and noise is going to take a lot of getting used to. For me, the speed and punch these amps have more than makes up for it.
I’m getting used to them the more I listen to them but it is easy to see how they get such mixed reviews.
The point is, is are they accurate and even more so, will you like accurate when you hear it?
The best amp is a straight wire with gain is a much hackneyed saying. I think these are getting pretty close.
(Come on, someone must know of an easy bank job ffs)
Reid Malenfant
07-01-2011, 20:43
(Come on, someone must know of an easy bank job ffs)
I know a bloke that robbed the same bank about 3 or more times inside of about 6 months before he got caught :lolsign: :mental: Needless to say, when he did get caught he did a lot of bird & in a very nasty place :eyebrows:
E2A:- I haven't seen this chap in about 10 years just in case anyone is wondering & have no overwhelming wish to ;)
How much are these things new anyway?
Nuforce 8.5 V3 integrated power amp £1750
Nuforce P9 pre amp £2500
Large discounts for hoody wearing shotgun wielding customers ;)
technobear
09-01-2011, 00:02
Nuforce 8.5 V3 integrated power amp £1750
Nuforce P9 pre amp £2500
Large discounts for hoody wearing shotgun wielding customers ;)
So quite a lot more expensive than the Expos or the Quantums.
What you have described is what I would expect from any pre/power combo in that price class.
I haven't heard the NuForce amps yet but I have heard the Bel Cantos and I would be quite happy to own any of them. I like the Lyngdorf amps too.
Oh BTW...
...you still can't beat a good twin :ner:
Being a digital and solid state audio enthusiast on this forum is much like being a Japanese motorbike enthusiast in a bikers club in the late 70’s; your mates stop talking to you, you learn to endure the “jap crap” and rice burner” jibes and eventually you get used to waiting for the Brit Iron and Harley boys to catch up with you when you go on a run.
Even the motor bike enthusiast mags ran them down writing about ignoring the specs, threats to the British bike industry, lack of style and build quality, jap may go faster but didn’t handle etc, very similar to “discussions” you get on this forum with regard to digital v analogue :doh:
Sure, they didn’t look as nice, they didn’t have the same throaty sound, and they didn’t get the admiring glances from other bikers, they didn’t have all the chrome and fancy paint jobs, even the girls didn’t want to be seen on the back. But, put one on a track and the truth became self evident; they outperformed the Brit Irons in every respect :ner:
Well, time told in the end didn’t it; the “ah buts”, and the “cant beat a good twin”, huddled together in enthusiasts groups by the roadside clutching their drip trays and tool boxes while the converts pulled wheelies, broke 0 to 60 personal bests and went around corners at impossible angles :lol:
As a man who's owned three Honda VFRs I know where you're coming from, getting stuck behind 'weekend warriors' on their 'jewellery boxes' can be quite a pain...;)
Oh BTW...
...you still can't beat a good twin :ner:
Yea!...A Honda VTS SP2 for example :ner::ner:
...or a Suzuki TL1000S, the scariest bike I've ever ridden :eek:
Edit; No I've just remembered my old Ducati Peso 750, that was the scariest, but mainly because it was a death trap!!!!!! 16" front wheel...mummy!!!
Reid Malenfant
09-01-2011, 13:54
...you still can't beat a good twin :ner:
Only if it's this shape V :eyebrows:
I've heard the Nu-Force amps a few times - they certainly didn't fill me with anything like the level of enthusiasm that Welder has for them.
Technobear wrote.
“What you have described is what I would expect from any pre/power combo in that price class.”
You would, but in my experience it wasn’t what I got.
The Nuforce combo is the most expensive modern amp I’ve listened to in my system and on paper at least the best performing. It’s definitely the quietest and fastest amp I’ve heard.
The majority of the other more expensive amps I’ve heard haven’t been what I would describe as very different form say the Exposure; better amps yes, but more of the same, rather than noticeably different, which is one of the reasons (another being it works well with what I already have) I’ve hung on to the Exposure even when I have had the funds to “upgrade”.
The only amp I’ve heard in my system to date that I think would not only fit the rest of my system and music tastes and I consider “possibly” worth the extra cost even taking into account the law of diminishing returns is the Bryston BD100.
Having listened to the Nuforce combo for a few days now I still think they’re stunning amps, but that is the thing, the “stunning” part. Not everyone likes “stunning”
One of the attractions for me is the Nuforce combo seems to drive my speakers with the same degree of control throughout their power range while the Exposure doesn’t. The Exposure has a minimum “power to sing” point and it’s above 15 Watts. In my current place 15 Watts with my fairly efficient speakers is loud.
I read a lot of comments regarding amps changing the “sound” of a system. While I accept this is true, imo it’s not what a “good” amp should do. Changes in sound should be left to source and speakers; all an amp should do is amplify what it gets fed. I think the Nuforce does this better than most.
I wouldn’t buy the Nuforce even if I could afford it. My hope is that NAD will in time offer a cheaper version of the M2 or another company produces a similar but cheaper amp built on similar principles. Until then, I’ll stick with what I’ve got used to, like and at present, can afford.
“..you still can't beat a good twin ”
I believe Harley Davidson still hold the twin speed record but you wouldn’t want to go around a corner on one ;)
YNWaN wrote.
“I've heard the Nu-Force amps a few times - they certainly didn't fill me with anything like the level of enthusiasm that Welder has for them.”
Have I been enthusiastic?
I thought what I wrote was fairly neutral.
“OMG these are the greatest amps since valves got invented and they are miles better than all the other crap I’ve heard, night and day etc etc” is what I call enthusiastic.
Technobear wrote.
“..you still can't beat a good twin ”
I believe Harley Davidson still hold the twin speed record but you wouldn’t want to go around a corner on one ;)
Better off dismounting and walking the 'jewellery box' round (unless it's a 1200 sportster which might just make it)...the perfect bike for a country with no corners, and a speed limit of 55...;)
How does the technology used in the NAD digital amp compare to the cheaper T-Amps that are about at the moment, obviously it's more sophisticated, or are they completely digital amplification technologies? :scratch:
I'm far from convinced by the class D amplification I have heard so far; some have been overly smooth and kind of 'blanded over' everything, others have had good macro dynamic but poor microdynamic shading - they do seem to work well for sub-woofers though. No doubt performance will improve as developments are made; we aren't there yet as far as I am concerned though.
“poor microdynamic shading”
Err, what’s that then ? :scratch:
Macrodynamic = large dynamic swings like the subjective maximum between loud and quiet.
Microdynamic = tiny dynamic shifts like the subtle change in inflection in a singers voice or the way a guitar string is bent.
Have you not heard this term before?
“Have you not heard this term before?”
Nope :)
I was alright with the Macro and Micro bit; it’s when you added “shading” that I got confused (thought you might have swallowed a Hi Fi reviewers book of meaningless phrases for a moment there ;))
Well, as a general comment on class D amplification I’m not in a position to argue as this is the only so described as “high end” class D kit I’ve heard.
I don’t agree when it comes to this particular combination in my system and at my level of critical listening. I think it performs uniformly well throughout the frequency and amplitude range. Because its quiet, low noise floor, subtle variations tend to be more audible. How it competes against other amps of a similar price with regard to the above I don’t honestly know.
My criticism is I’m not sure it’s what I would describe as a musical and involving listen.
Whether that’s because I’m used to a particular sound or have come to accept distortion and noise as part of the music is an interesting area for discussion when it comes to Hi Fi in general.
Hey Will :)
I don’t know enough about the subject to write about it here mate.
I know the NAD M2 isn’t a Class D and not strictly a digital switching amp either.
I’m not sure many know exactly what it is because NAD are keeping the finer operating points under raps for obvious reasons.
I would agree though that digital amplification is in its early stages. From what I’ve read (and what little I can understand of that :scratch:) and from what I’ve heard with these amps, digital amplification has enormous potential. Class D is one route, but from what I’ve read there are other avenues being developed.
Despite being out of my price range atm (working on it :rolleyes:) I’ve been trying to get a listen to the M2 which as I understand it works on a different principle to “normal” Class D.
Hey Will :)
I don’t know enough about the subject to write about it here mate.
I know the NAD M2 isn’t a Class D and not strictly a digital switching amp either.
I’m not sure many know exactly what it is because NAD are keeping the finer operating points under raps for obvious reasons.
I would agree though that digital amplification is in its early stages. From what I’ve read (and what little I can understand of that :scratch:) and from what I’ve heard with these amps, digital amplification has enormous potential. Class D is one route, but from what I’ve read there are other avenues being developed.
Despite being out of my price range atm (working on it :rolleyes:) I’ve been trying to get a listen to the M2 which as I understand it works on a different principle to “normal” Class D.
I have 3 t-Amps in my secondary systems, a Mini-T, a Muse M21, and a Bantam Classic, these use variations of the tricorp chip, which I believe is roughly Class 'D' with some additional processing bolted on.
I'm assuming that these are digital amps, I.E. digital amplification of an analogue source, but I could be way off the mark :eyebrows:
At their price point they are magnificent, and will blow any similar costing analogue amp away (you'd need to spend 5 times the amount to compete).
So I'm not surprised at the potential of a more serious implementation like the NAD...:)
Yup, I can believe it :)
I bought a Nuforce Icon headphone amp/Dac for my daughter this Christmas and I was very impressed by that.
The problem is digital amps just aren’t getting a fair listen with the old school chaps.
A lot of that imo is based around many of the usual preconceptions and prejudices when it comes to anything new. Much like the bike thing again; can’t beat cylinder capacity and pushrods.
You know mate, the same old bollocks Hi Fi has always suffered from. A few so called golden eared experts get a grip on the media/forums and it takes an earthquake to dislodge them when they sould be put out to pasture with their pipes and slippers.
Oh, that reminds me, where are my slippers :lolsign:
Oh well...I haven't just invented the term though; if it means nothing to you then thats fine (I hadn't realised that the term 'shading' wasn't widely used though). The whole 'old guard, pipe and slippers brigade holding back progress' is a nice idea but entirely untrue in my experience (I've no idea if it is true in terms of motorbikes, perhaps it is); of course it is possible that they have heard "other amps of a similar price".
“of course it is possible that they have heard "other amps of a similar price".”
Indeed.
However, in my experience (which I grant isn’t as wide as many here but possibly a little less biased) the differences at this kind of price (£4000 to £5000) range are very small.
I have happily owned up to the fact that I haven’t heard any modern amps at this price range; a grand less and then we’re talking. My “expensive” kit era finished a great many years ago when it finally dawned on me what a rip off “high end” audio was. Perhaps it’s all changed but from what I hear from my friends rather more expensive equipment I rather think not.
Oh arr, when reading my posts its best to just accept I'm a bit of a piss taker and try to ignore the tone and concentrate on the information......should there be any ;)
Erm, need to add something here.
The established audio reviewers and a lot of the Hi Fi industry does in fact hold progress back because the skills needed in for example digital amplification, computer based music players, bit perfect sound reproduction are not skills the more traditional electronics engineer knows much about.
While I may write “old skool” comments with tongue in cheek I believe there is a lot of truth in them.
technobear
06-03-2011, 23:14
Lots of happy smiling visitors to my room at the Pie-Fi Show today.
Lots of people now wondering if they still need an analogue turntable.
That Audiolab 8200CDQ is a class act and astonishing at the price.
Plus I picked up my latest toy - a Bel Canto eVo 200.2 - more on that soon :eyebrows:
Chris - really annoyed that we never made it to your room - just too much to do in a day, (and remain polite!) Did hear the 8200CDQ in another room though (through tiny Genelec actives) and it sounded superb.
Being a digital and solid state audio enthusiast on this forum is much like being a Japanese motorbike enthusiast in a bikers club in the late 70’s; your mates stop talking to you, you learn to endure the “jap crap” and rice burner” jibes and eventually you get used to waiting for the Brit Iron and Harley boys to catch up with you when you go on a run.
Even the motor bike enthusiast mags ran them down writing about ignoring the specs, threats to the British bike industry, lack of style and build quality, jap may go faster but didn’t handle etc, very similar to “discussions” you get on this forum with regard to digital v analogue :doh:
Sure, they didn’t look as nice, they didn’t have the same throaty sound, and they didn’t get the admiring glances from other bikers, they didn’t have all the chrome and fancy paint jobs, even the girls didn’t want to be seen on the back. But, put one on a track and the truth became self evident; they outperformed the Brit Irons in every respect :ner:
Well, time told in the end didn’t it; the “ah buts”, and the “cant beat a good twin”, huddled together in enthusiasts groups by the roadside clutching their drip trays and tool boxes while the converts pulled wheelies, broke 0 to 60 personal bests and went around corners at impossible angles :lol:
Oh arr, digital amps; I’ve got my mates Nuforce 8.5V3 stereo power and P9 pre amp on loan for a few days. You’re not going to want to hear this but……
Ah f**k it, wasting my time trying to tell you lot. You wouldn’t believe me anyway :brickwall:
I’ll leave you to your valve polishing, record player adjusting, crackle and pop vinyl and just listen to these while I can :)
(anyone know of a easy bank to rob :scratch:)
Uhum,
My next bike.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bYiovEL210&feature=related
Whilst I have certainly have a preference for valves amps I enjoy what class D can do and whilst I have a pretty extreme TT I still enjoy digital (most of my music I have is via digital) at the end of the day I just really want to listen and enjoy music. My system uses both active and tubes. I use a basic solid state Nad as a preamp a DIY Dac and basic usb converter to listen to files and very happy with what I get. Does my basic digital system equal the analogue system, of course not no where near, but I still enjoy listening to digital.
Ohh which one would I have http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYw_ATY9cpg
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JbJy4JZ3e8
Good call Jeff but chronologically irrelevant ;)
Triumph make some pretty quick machines now but what a struggle they had to stay in business and produce bikes that performed anything like the Jap imports.
John
“Does my basic digital system equal the analogue system, of course not no where near, but I still enjoy listening to digital.”
Can’t argue with what you hear John but it’s the “of course” and “no where near” that is worrying.
I can’t remember what digital kit you have John but I would hazard a guess that there is a marked difference in level of investment between the two.
Other forums where file based audio features more prominently and hundreds would disagree with you. I guess they are all deaf :scratch:
Lol - not another pointless digital vs. analogue debate, guys, surely? :doh:
This is destined only to go round and round in circles.....!
The secret is to have a selection of quality sources, both analogue and digital, so you don't feel short-changed, sonically, with either - and most importantly of all, have access to the widest variety of music on both formats.
*That* is the most important consideration here, not just sound quality.
It's therefore no surprise that the keenest music lovers will often have multiple sources, both digital and analogue ;)
Count me in that gang! :gig:
Marco.
I’ll go with that Marco :)
No, it's not a digital vs analogue debate.
It's actually about the progress and development of digital amps.
Adam active speakers have digital amps built in and to me sound superior to 'other' active speakers. By quite a margin to my ears as well.
My recent introduction to Lyngdorf has been something of a revelation too.
No, it's not a digital vs analogue debate.
It's actually about the progress and development of digital amps.
Adam active speakers have digital amps built in and to me sound superior to 'other' active speakers. By quite a margin to my ears as well.
My recent introduction to Lyngdorf has been something of a revelation too.
Yes, but I wish we didn't call these things digital amps.
Class D are switching amps, we don't call switched power supplies digital....
Lyngdorf is more digital due to it's DSP correction but it's still not a digital amp.
From Wikipedia (so it must be reliable....:))
The term "class D" is sometimes misunderstood as meaning a "digital" amplifier. While some class D amps may indeed be controlled by digital circuits, the power stage deals with voltage and current as a function of time. The smallest amount of noise, timing uncertainty, voltage ripple or any other non-ideality immediately results in an irreversible change of the output signal. A digital circuit also uses physics to operate, but those same errors will only lead to incorrect results when they become so large that a signal representing a digit is distorted beyond recognition. Up to that point, non-idealities have no impact on the transmitted signal. The difference between digital and analogue signals is that digital signals are subsequently interpreted as numbers whereas in analogue signals the exact waveform matters.[1]
Nevertheless, the term "digital amplifier" has gained currency to denote class D amplifiers with significant amounts of digital processing in them.
Hi Steve,
No, it's not a digital vs analogue debate.
It was getting that way, as certain people were standing on their soap boxes, having a little rant ;)
It's actually about the progress and development of digital amps.
Cool - let's ensure it stays precisely about that, as that subject is far more interesting than yawn-inducing age-old circular arguments about the 'superiority' of digital over analogue, or vice versa!
Carry on :)
Marco.
Yes, but I wish we didn't call these things digital amps.
Class D are switching amps, we don't call switched power supplies digital....
Lyngdorf is more digital due to it's DSP correction but it's still not a digital amp.
.
Nah mate,.. it's painted on the front, Digital Amplifier. So it must be.
Nah mate,.. it's painted on the front, Digital Amplifier. So it must be.
:) it's marketing, trying (and succeeding) in creating an impression for those who think that digital = perfect sound. The technology is good and can sound good, it's the marketing I have a problem with.
To me it's all rather irrelevant, as Marco says having a range of sources covers all the bases for getting the most out of the music you have and the music you seek. What really matters is what pleases the head in front of the speakers at the end of the day. I don't have much and my system is very modest, but I love the pleasure it gives me.
I would never rule anything out until I had tried it and decided if I liked it or not and if I can afford it. I do intend to listen to some Class D amps during my current bout of 'upgraditis', as well as some valve amps - it's all about what works for you personally isn't it? :scratch:
Reid Malenfant
12-03-2011, 16:15
Yes, but I wish we didn't call these things digital amps.
Class D are switching amps, we don't call switched power supplies digital....
I agree, they aren't digital ;)
Strictly speaking they aren't really switching either as that generally refers to class AB or B amplifiers where the output transistors shut off during some part of the opposite half cycle of AC, unlike class A where no switching occurs..
Lets call them by the proper name shall we?
Pulse Width Modulation amplifier :) Pulse Duration Modulation would also be acceptable :eyebrows:
I have bugger all technological understanding to argue one way or the other.. But as I understand it (and admittedly from the promotional material provided), strictly speaking they are not even amplifiers...
Tact True Digital Amplificiation: The Sound of the Future
Tact True Digital Amplification, the sound of the future. The Tact Millennium is recognized as the first true digital audio amplifier. Other so- called Digital or Class D amplifiers have been various combinations of Analog and Digital technology, in most cases using analog feedback. TacT's True Digital Amplification is conceptually different from any other amplification in almost every area of design. Once you understand the fundamental differences you will realize that Tact's complete line of True Digital Amplifiers offer the potential of much higher fidelity than any other digital or analog design.
Having said all of this it is worth pointing out, that the Tact's True Digital Amplifiers are not amplifiers at all. They are D/A converters that just happen to put out enough current and voltage to drive speakers directly, without the need of any amplification. This way it will perform the functions of: D/A converter, Preamplifier and Power Amplifier, without having any analog circuitry after D/A conversion other than one coil and one capacitor performing a 60 kHz, 2nd order low-pass filter.
Essentially, the hundreds of active and passive components usually required for amplification are gone!
...and here I make the assumption that Peter Lyngdorf uses the same principles in the 'Lyngdorf' amps, that he developed originally in the 'Tact' amps.
"Essentially, the hundreds of active and passive components usually required for amplification are gone!"
Clever innit ;)
avalonsounds
27-03-2011, 08:48
Being a digital and solid state audio enthusiast on this forum is much like being a Japanese motorbike enthusiast in a bikers club in the late 70’s; your mates stop talking to you, you learn to endure the “jap crap” and rice burner” jibes and eventually you get used to waiting for the Brit Iron and Harley boys to catch up with you when you go on a run.
Even the motor bike enthusiast mags ran them down writing about ignoring the specs, threats to the British bike industry, lack of style and build quality, jap may go faster but didn’t handle etc, very similar to “discussions” you get on this forum with regard to digital v analogue :doh:
Sure, they didn’t look as nice, they didn’t have the same throaty sound, and they didn’t get the admiring glances from other bikers, they didn’t have all the chrome and fancy paint jobs, even the girls didn’t want to be seen on the back. But, put one on a track and the truth became self evident; they outperformed the Brit Irons in every respect :ner:
Well, time told in the end didn’t it; the “ah buts”, and the “cant beat a good twin”, huddled together in enthusiasts groups by the roadside clutching their drip trays and tool boxes while the converts pulled wheelies, broke 0 to 60 personal bests and went around corners at impossible angles :lol:
Oh arr, digital amps; I’ve got my mates Nuforce 8.5V3 stereo power and P9 pre amp on loan for a few days. You’re not going to want to hear this but……
Ah f**k it, wasting my time trying to tell you lot. You wouldn’t believe me anyway :brickwall:
I’ll leave you to your valve polishing, record player adjusting, crackle and pop vinyl and just listen to these while I can :)
(anyone know of a easy bank to rob :scratch:)
I owned an HI Kwacker back in the 80s.Out perform Brit Iron? maybe in a straight line, but get it wrong into a fast left hander,and youd be on your arse!! Now get it wrong on a Luverly Norton and youd have half a chance of saving it.
Ive done a few Digital v SS comparisons over the years, and I could never confidentally tell them apart.Best of the bunch (been a few years) were the Bel Canto M/Bs.Really loved the sound.These were the ones with the B/O chip i believe.
I did pick the late 70’s as the era quite carefully ;)
You’ve picked a dog designed in the late 60’s :eek:
But sure, a well set up Norton Commando 750 fastback or even a Harley Sportster engine levered into a Norton Wideline Featherbed frame would handle extremely well.
But, not better than the majority of the Japanese and Italian imports from the era I picked.
You could do things with these import bikes you just couldn’t do with any Brit iron at the time. While the Norton did have fabulous handling an early Honda CBR for example would shave 15 yards off the braking distance on a fast road corner and if you snapped into third and popped the front wheel exiting the bend, would leave the Norton rider picking up gearbox pieces and pissing on the drum brakes to cool them down before rejoining the race.
I owned an HI Kwacker back in the 80s.Out perform Brit Iron? maybe in a straight line, but get it wrong into a fast left hander,and youd be on your arse!! Now get it wrong on a Luverly Norton and youd have half a chance of saving it.
I had a Honda VRF750 in the 80's (admittedly late 80's but 80's none the less)...do I need to continue? ;)
'Brit Iron' :lolsign:
Reid Malenfant
28-03-2011, 14:36
Yamaha RD350LC would make any brit iron look like it was on casters, even the earlier RD400 & 350B, 250DX etc handled really well ;)
350LC W reg, 1979 :)
Yamaha RD350LC would make any brit iron look like it was on casters, even the earlier RD400 & 350B, 250DX etc handled really well ;)
350LC W reg, 1979 :)
Didn't they do a racing version too Mark...
I was stuck with a CB250G5, whist my mates had the RD250's, & X7s...
Bit of a pudding, but a reliable pudding ;)
StanleyB
28-03-2011, 15:22
I went and bought a RD400 after seeing Johny Secotto win a couple of championships with the racing spec version. First bikes with magnesium wheels if I remember correctly. If I could live my life again I would buy another one.
I did crash and write off a 900cc Kawasaki that belonged to a friend. I had to buy him a new bike when I got out of hospital 3 months later..
Reid Malenfant
28-03-2011, 15:23
Aye, the TZ250, 350, 500 & 750 (or was that a 700 :scratch:), either way it was 4 cylinders of two stroke madness most often used in sidecar racing :D
I went and bought a RD400 after seeing Johny Secotto win a couple of championships with the racing spec version. First bikes with magnesium wheels if I remember correctly. If I could live my life again I would buy another one.
I did crash and write off a 900cc Kawasaki that belonged to a friend. I had to buy him a new bike when I got out of hospital 3 months later..
...nasty! thankfully the only bikes I've crashed were too small to get me into too much trouble. An old BSA bantam that I used to tazz around on the farm, and a CG125 (68mph with your head flat on the tank), the chain snapped just before a bend...But it was enough to impress on me the unpleasant nature of tarmac ;)
Aye, the TZ250, 350, 500 & 750 (or was that a 700 :scratch:), either way it was 4 cylinders of two stroke madness most often used in sidecar racing :D
a 'power cliff' as opposed to a curve :eyebrows:
technobear
28-03-2011, 17:42
While the Norton did have fabulous handling an early Honda CBR for example would shave 15 yards off the braking distance on a fast road corner and if you snapped into third and popped the front wheel exiting the bend, would leave the Norton rider picking up gearbox pieces and pissing on the drum brakes to cool them down before rejoining the race.
Now there's an image! I think I need to go and lie down :o
A bit earlier in this thread a couple of gents were discussing how weekend warriors had to be "waited" for whilst riding their own rice rockets...surely they weren't referring to this Harley???
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/night-rod-special.html
Reid Malenfant
30-03-2011, 17:33
:lolsign: It might be ok in a straight line, but rather you than me going round a corner ;)
technobear
30-03-2011, 17:50
Meanwhile in other news...
The Bel Canto eVo200.2 power amp continues to be very impressive and has me steadfastly rediscovering my music collection all over again.
Logitech Touch (http://www.misco.co.uk/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=457344&sourceid=5499) - £165.97 delivered...
Vinyleyes
03-04-2011, 12:48
Sure, they didn’t look as nice, they didn’t have the same throaty sound, and they didn’t get the admiring glances from other bikers, they didn’t have all the chrome and fancy paint jobs, even the girls didn’t want to be seen on the back. But, put one on a track and the truth became self evident; they outperformed the Brit Irons in every respect :ner:
Well, time told in the end didn’t it; the “ah buts”, and the “cant beat a good twin”, huddled together in enthusiasts groups by the roadside clutching their drip trays and tool boxes while the converts pulled wheelies, broke 0 to 60 personal bests and went around corners at impossible angles :lol:
As a man who's owned three Honda VFRs I know where you're coming from, getting stuck behind 'weekend warriors' on their 'jewellery boxes' can be quite a pain...;)
Just to remind all you lovers of efficiency ...... Japs never could make a decent sports car though ....... .............. :cool:........ :lolsign:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/4947469605_fb76989c46.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_NSX
...nuff said :)
That above......and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5
Better than anything that's ever come out of the uk that's for sure.
butuz
Vinyleyes
04-04-2011, 01:49
Nah guys ... NSX = cheap man's Ferrari ....... and MX-5 = girlfriend's car ........ You are forgetting that a true sports car needs CHARACTER as well as performance .... ;) .... a bit like my Nakamichi PA-7 ... not the last word in subtlety .. but a hell of a beast to party on down with ... :cool:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5
Better than anything that's ever come out of the uk that's for sure.
Agreed, if you've driven one you realise what a great little car it is. Worlds apart from crap like the Triumph Spitfire.
Nah guys ... NSX = cheap man's Ferrari ....... and MX-5 = girlfriend's car ........ You are forgetting that a true sports car needs CHARACTER as well as performance .... ;) .... a bit like my Nakamichi PA-7 ... not the last word in subtlety .. but a hell of a beast to party on down with ... :cool:
NSX = a Ferrari for the real world, a supercar that's quite happy pootling through town...
For CHARACTER read, unreliable, pisses out engine oil, handles like a pig, and is unsafe at speeds over 70 ;)
For CHARACTER read, unreliable, pisses out engine oil, handles like a pig, and is unsafe at speeds over 70 ;)
Too right. I've driven a Ferrari 340 on the track and it has incredible midrange grunt, but my word I wouldn't want one on the road. Uncouth, noisy, rattly, coarse sums it up.
electric beach
04-04-2011, 10:59
Or if you want a real sports car... :eyebrows:
http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2005/11/stories/01/images/1/
My wife was being head hunted and offered any car she wanted (within a budget). When showing interest in the S2000 the salesman advised "this is a bit too much for a woman to handle luv". So she paid and drove it out of the showroom with a flourish! :ner:
Too right. I've driven a Ferrari 340 on the track and it has incredible midrange grunt, but my word I wouldn't want one on the road. Uncouth, noisy, rattly, coarse sums it up.
I used to live in Hong Kong in the nineties, there was a very wealthy couple in the opposite building who owned an F40 :eek:
You could hear the poor thing spluttering along on it's regular trip to the park & shop supermarket. The speed limit on the island was 75kph max, and it was too low to get onto a ferry or through the tunnel to the mainland...if there was an equivalent of an RSPCA for cars they'd have been in trouble ;)
Or if you want a real sports car... :eyebrows:
http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2005/11/stories/01/images/1/
My wife was being head hunted and offered any car she wanted (within a budget). When showing interest in the S2000 the salesman advised "this is a bit too much for a woman to handle luv". So she paid and drove it out of the showroom with a flourish! :ner:
More magnificent engineering from Mr Honda :)
Vinyleyes
04-04-2011, 16:22
NSX = a Ferrari for the real world, a supercar that's quite happy pootling through town...
For CHARACTER read, unreliable, pisses out engine oil, handles like a pig, and is unsafe at speeds over 70 ;)
Oh dear .. you folks ,, is there noone out there that appreciates what character is ... .. I have driven my TR6 all over europe .. thousands of miles, went skiing in it, took it away for a months touring around continental folk and blues festivals .. Demnmark to the Brittany Coast .. never carried more than a screwdriver and couple of spanners .. never had a problem .. never even carried oil.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/4948013286_9ea2008fc8_z.jpg (http://theartofsound.net/forum/http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/4948013286_9ea2008fc8_z.jpg[/img]IMG_0753)
Did autobahns at 85 mph no problem .. handles great on the right tyres and spax shockers .. ohh ... and met all kinds of people who stopped and chatted .. who never would have bothered if I'd been driving souless MX5 or Honda something ... ;) ....
I agree the NSX is a marvellous piece of engineering .. and got to agree with Martin .. wouldn't be seen dead in a spitfire .. :cool:... but we are talking about Classic motoring here .. .. no 0's and 1's ... true seat of the pants analogue vibrations ..... :)
Nah guys ... NSX = cheap man's Ferrari ....... and MX-5 = girlfriend's car ........
Lol - you may be trying to sound all cool but in reality you've just highlighted to us all that you know funk all about cars :lolsign:
Congrats, car n00b :mental:
Butuz
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/4948013286_9ea2008fc8_z.jpg (http://theartofsound.net/forum/http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/4948013286_9ea2008fc8_z.jpg[/img]IMG_0753)
Mind you - that does look shhhewwwweet. :stalks::eyebrows:
(just dont kid yourself that its actually any good) :eek:
Butuz
Oh dear .. you folks ,, is there noone out there that appreciates what character is ...
I most certainly know what "character" is, being the current owner of a 20 year old Land Rover, and having owned what would now be a near 60 year old example in the past...
Have to say, though, that I'd trust Maggie the Land Rover to get me there - or at least have a fighting chance of fixing her by the roadside - unlike my everyday cars, where you need the proper diagnostic equipment to have any chance at all....
That said, an ex-girlfriend wanted an MX5 and I found her one that had been souped-up rather nicely, and anything with 100+ BHP and rear-wheel drive is a lot of fun in my book... :)
Ffs wot happened to the bikes! Been hijacked by a load of blind can drivers :eek:
Reid Malenfant
04-04-2011, 18:01
<snip> unlike my everyday cars, where you need the proper diagnostic equipment to have any chance at all....
Or where you need to remove the whole engine just to change the bloody alternator :mental: :D
Ffs wot happened to the bikes! Been hijacked by a load of blind can drivers :eek:
Kwaka ZX-6R Ninja in the garage, so a foot in all the camps! Mind you, wifey doesn't want me to be an organ donor, so it hasn't turned a wheel in 3 years... (although I reckon she wouldn't actually complain too much once the insurance money rolled in! :lol:)
Or where you need to remove the whole engine just to change the bloody alternator :mental: :D
Harsh, but fair! :D
Vinyleyes
04-04-2011, 18:24
Ffs wot happened to the bikes! Been hijacked by a load of blind can drivers :eek:
Hehe ... sorry John .. just thought I'd ( tongue in cheek) see if we had any real sports car lovers on here ...... but things are getting rather insulting .. :lolsign: ..... I have been told I know SFA about cars .. and called a car n00b ... what is that .. :doh: .. each to their own eh ! ....
I did have a nice Triumph Touring 900 a few years back .. not a fast road bike by any means but quick enough for me .. but I had to let it go for my own well being .. :(
Never mind Brian, some people got no manners or taste.......I should know :lolsign:
Still, makes a change form the digital v analogue debate.
Tbh I’ve driven a fair few cars but for some strange reason I’m a bit prone to removing wing mirrors an stuff. They’re a bit wider than a bike aren’t they :scratch:
Hehehe only kiddin Brian :)
Butuz
I don't do bikes, modern ones anyway suicide machines mostly ridden by twats, i nearly had the head off some idiot today going flat out around a blind bend, he was riding the white lines and leaning over to my side of the road, i had to swerve to avoid hitting the stupid cnut, i've had this happien to me a few times now, apart from scaring the crap out of me it's idiotic, i'm always hearing about another biker dying, it nearly happen to my brother and my cousin in the same year, my brother came off his Fireblade at somewhere over 100 and went straight through a metal 5 bar gate, they closed the road for 5 hours, he spent a week in hdu and my cousin went under a van and broke lots of things spending months in hospital, both are now fucked up and can't work either at all or how they used to, my cousin is now registered disabled because of his accident
On a lighter note If you want a good trip out and appreciate real bikes then go here (http://www.sammymiller.co.uk/), thoroughly recommended
Guilty of riding like a twat.
Guilty of white lining.
Guilty of irresponsible riding.
Guilty of going to fast.
Guilty of not stopping for policemen.
Guilty of riding a Fireblade.
However, I’m sober when I get on my bike with a full set of leathers, crash hat, no mobile phone to chat on, no in car entertainment to fiddle with when I should be concentrating on my driving, no passenger distractions (trying to settle the kids in the back as I’m going down the motorway at 90mph one metre from the car in front.
How about you?
Sammy Miller is a legend - I will defo drag the family around when we "do Butlins" in May - they'll love it! :lol:
bollocks i have just typed a long reply to you John and pressed the wrong button and lost it, i'm off to bed now with the hump
Reid Malenfant
04-04-2011, 21:22
Guilty of riding like a twat.
Guilty of white lining.
Guilty of irresponsible riding.
Guilty of going to fast.
Guilty of not stopping for policemen.
Yes to all on my FZR1000 :o I never went anywhere less than 90 MPH on a clear road with no speed restrictions...
Guilty of riding a Fireblade.
Was it the early twitchy one with the 16" front wheel or are we talking a tad more refined? :scratch:
I really want a bike on the road again :eyebrows:
No worries, always another day……………hopefully ;)
and anything with 100+ BHP and rear-wheel drive is a lot of fun in my book... :)
Uh huh :eyebrows:
1991, 900 and not twitchy ;)
The problem with the baldes was they outperformed the rider. Most of those who I know who had one and dropped it, did so because they lost confidence mid maneuver. I stuck one in a hedge for exactly that reason. The bike would have made it but I lost my bottle coming out of a bend strangely enough. Just brought the bike upright and changed down to red line it and the front lifted and I panicked :rolleyes:
MMMM bike talk!!!
It was sunny today. In fact I've managed to ride 7 days out of the last 11 (working that is) and I love it! approx 15 miles of country road between me and work! Just me and the gsxr!
Ditto on the on the 1st 5 guiltys btw and never owned a blade!
Any of you do track days?
Good call Jeff but chronologically irrelevant ;)
Triumph make some pretty quick machines now but what a struggle they had to stay in business and produce bikes that performed anything like the Jap imports.
John
“Does my basic digital system equal the analogue system, of course not no where near, but I still enjoy listening to digital.”
Can’t argue with what you hear John but it’s the “of course” and “no where near” that is worrying.
I can’t remember what digital kit you have John but I would hazard a guess that there is a marked difference in level of investment between the two.
Other forums where file based audio features more prominently and hundreds would disagree with you. I guess they are all deaf :scratch:
Chronologically irrelevant?
I'm not following...
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