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tunepirate
05-01-2011, 17:10
Hi all, i just wanna ask those of you that know how to use tune dem and listen to a systems ability to play melodies simultaneous, musicality, etc.

Does every beresford dac upgrade give better swing and tune dem?

MartinT
05-01-2011, 17:14
Hi Cristian

Could you briefly describe for us what tune dem is and how you apply it?

tunepirate
05-01-2011, 18:02
I'm sorry that's the hard part of the tune method. Almost impossible to teach theoretical. But quite easy sometimes to demonstrate.

For example, I was impressed of Harman Kardon receivers before my dealer demonstrated it compared to a "system fidelity" amplifier.

I realised how blurry the tune got, and how, not tight in the timing the reproduction from the HK was. I've never looked for HK again after i heard that.

The better "tune dem" an amplifier has, the more you will be able to pick out all the instruments and follow their tunes/melodies at the same time.
I consider it as even more important part of transparency than timbre and soundstage.

The worse tune dem an amplifier has the more veild will the melodies be.
Melodies coming forth clearer goes hand in hand with the increase of timing.(sometimes people confuse this with clearer tweeters).
If you move the subwoofer in a 5.1 system, 30meters away, everybody realises that there will be a loss in timing. But the thing is that the bass melody will be more veild as well at the same time. And the closer you get the subwoofer to the listening room, the more the bass meldoy will come forth and the more swing you will enjoy from the system.

Every system has more or less transparency when it comes to the timing and ability to playback melodies. Even systems without a subwoofer.

When melodies are transparently coming forth and the timing is increasing(often because of getting better source), people often will start to tap their toes more. That's why people with linn-systems often are called toe tappers. This is what we mean when we say that one system is more live then another one, the timeing is more correct(which also sorts out the melodies and actually sorts out the whole flow of sound and music(gives less headache from you system).

A better source, gives better swing, timing and clarity and flow around the melodies being played from each musician.

Speakers is the most important part when it comes to resolution and details, source is the most important part when it comes to allow the timing and melodies to come forth with great flow and simultaneity.

The tune method is used in a/b comparison.
Which unit will give the best swing, allow the tunes to come forth most clearly(all tunes at the same time), in ruthm with all the other instruments.

It's easy to get lost, if you only listen to one instrument, beacuse better tweeters can sometimes give a feel that melodies are flowing better.
But better tweeter wont necessary give more swing from the whole song.
Sometimes better "tune dem" is experienced as the music going faster. that can be a help to think of.
It's about listening to the music, not the sound.

magiccarpetride
05-01-2011, 18:22
Hi all, i just wanna ask those of you that know how to use tune dem and listen to a systems ability to play melodies simultaneous, musicality, etc.

Does every beresford dac upgrade give better swing and tune dem?

In my experience, minimizing jitter is the most critical aspect of musicality. Listen to a tune on a low-jitter system, then do the same on a high-jitter system. You'll hear immediately that the musicality gets degraded with an increase in jitter.

Mr Pig
05-01-2011, 18:27
In my experience, minimizing jitter is the most critical aspect of musicality.

I agree. Use a turntable! ;0)

tunepirate
05-01-2011, 18:32
In my experience, minimizing jitter is the most critical aspect of musicality. Listen to a tune on a low-jitter system, then do the same on a high-jitter system. You'll hear immediately that the musicality gets degraded with an increase in jitter.

You're probably right, jitter has a lot to do with this. Too bad that spdif and usb are very jittery compared to tcp/ip networkplayers.

Spdif has no error correcting system, and will ultimately loose bits. that's why spdif dac's might be on their way out if not buffering is getting better.

That's why linn made an extra cable on the Karik-nummerik combo, that locked the two clocks to one another.

Naim DAC might have come up with some sort of solution for buffering and minimizing the loss. But still diffrent transproters sounds diffrent, so it's still very analog even though it's digital:)

How's the buffering in the beresford working?

Reid Malenfant
05-01-2011, 18:39
How's the buffering in the beresford working?
The receiver chip locks onto whatever signal it's being fed, up to 24 bit 96KHz ;) Looked in one i have here & didn't see a buffer... Not looked on the bottom of the PCB thought admittedly.

tunepirate
05-01-2011, 18:43
The receiver chip locks onto whatever signal it's being fed, up to 24 bit 96KHz ;) Looked in one i have here & didn't see a buffer... Not looked on the bottom of the PCB thought admittedly.

The problem with Naim dac is that it has a delay in the sound because of the buffering system. Not to fun when watching movies i guess:)

magiccarpetride
05-01-2011, 19:23
I agree. Use a turntable! ;0)

So your contention is that wow and flutter and less evil than jitter?

Reid Malenfant
05-01-2011, 19:25
Alex, Colin was taking the micky chap, he made me laugh i must admit :eyebrows:

Mr Pig
05-01-2011, 19:26
So your contention is that wow and flutter and less evil than jitter?

Oh yes.

magiccarpetride
05-01-2011, 19:27
You're probably right, jitter has a lot to do with this. Too bad that spdif and usb are very jittery compared to tcp/ip networkplayers.

Spdif has no error correcting system, and will ultimately loose bits. that's why spdif dac's might be on their way out if not buffering is getting better.

That's why linn made an extra cable on the Karik-nummerik combo, that locked the two clocks to one another.

Naim DAC might have come up with some sort of solution for buffering and minimizing the loss. But still diffrent transproters sounds diffrent, so it's still very analog even though it's digital:)

How's the buffering in the beresford working?

At the other end of the spectrum are the speakers. Cone speakers can influence, in a negative way, the musicality of the tune, if the speed of twitters is not matching the speed of woofers etc. One way out is to use planar/electrostatic speakers, where the entire surface of the speaker is vibrating (however, the catch is that you must use only the high end non-cone speakers, in order to avoid having to throw a subwoofer into the mix). In my experience, transitioning from cone to high end flat speakers makes an audible difference in musicality (as well as in the mucho controversial PRAT).

tunepirate
05-01-2011, 19:54
At the other end of the spectrum are the speakers. Cone speakers can influence, in a negative way, the musicality of the tune, if the speed of twitters is not matching the speed of woofers etc. One way out is to use planar/electrostatic speakers, where the entire surface of the speaker is vibrating (however, the catch is that you must use only the high end non-cone speakers, in order to avoid having to throw a subwoofer into the mix). In my experience, transitioning from cone to high end flat speakers makes an audible difference in musicality (as well as in the mucho controversial PRAT).

Thanks for your additional info. Crossovers seems to be hard to make transparent in the timing. Does planar/electrostatic come without crossover?

MartinT
05-01-2011, 19:58
I agree with other comments that 'tune dem' seems to be listening to time-domain effects in the music (pitch stability, rhythm, overall timing) rather than frequency-domain. This would pertain to jitter in a digital stream or wow/flutter/speed stability in an analogue source.

What I can't fathom is how an amplifier comes into the reckoning, although we all acknowledge that amplifiers sound different. Poor speakers can undoubtedly smear information, so this too I can understand.

tunepirate
05-01-2011, 20:08
I agree with other comments that 'tune dem' seems to be listening to time-domain effects in the music (pitch stability, rhythm, overall timing) rather than frequency-domain. This would pertain to jitter in a digital stream or wow/flutter/speed stability in an analogue source.

What I can't fathom is how an amplifier comes into the reckoning, although we all acknowledge that amplifiers sound different. Poor speakers can undoubtedly smear information, so this too I can understand.

Just go compare diffrent amplifiers and listen to the simultaniety, the melodiees and the tightness of the music and you'll find that it differs.
My onkyo receiver was a horrible experience, while my system fidelity, was a good step in the right direction.(I'm not speaking for all onkyos)

Maybe it has to do with phase shift or something. Like Lejonklou (swedish manufacturere) says, everything affects the musicality. Even the line selectors, even the foot stands of the amplifier, what shelf it's placed on.
Vibrations taken up by the components affects the transparency.
He has been blind testing him self, and he scored a 100% accuracy when cables were turned the wrong way in his setup.

tunepirate
05-01-2011, 20:23
That's why tune dem is such a good method, when applied correctly it can reveal smallest differences in the setup. That's why people with linn setup, can spend days placing their speakers on the right millimetre from the back wall, just to get the most music out of their systems.

But ofcourse like Marco says, it has to be combined with listening for timbre and pitch, linearity, resolution, details etc. But things like sound stage and linerity are very secondary to me. Sound stage is just were the PAN on the mixertable was set, linerity will never be in a normal livingroom. Timbre, details and pitch is a very important part of the music but i would still say that swing is the most important information that shouldn't be lost in the playback setup(can be lost because of bad installation). Swing is the information that will make you understand the music:) Swing is transparency and it's the opposite of blurriness. Timing is not only timing, correct timing will bring forth details you had missed before. It will make rock be rock, and jazz be jazz.

Low coloring, correct pitch, correct soundstage, details etc, is not transparency without timing.

(this is probably where people will stop agree with me:)

magiccarpetride
05-01-2011, 21:04
Thanks for your additional info. Crossovers seems to be hard to make transparent in the timing. Does planar/electrostatic come without crossover?

I don't think crossovers are the major potential flaw. It's rather the fact that, with cone speakers, the sound is coming from a tiny point in space. With two-way cone speakers, it is coming from two tiny points in space. With three way speakers, from three points in space. Add to that a subwoofer, and you have four discrete points in space.

Trying to coordinate these distinct points dispersed in space is hellishly difficult. I'm not saying, there are some high end cone speakers that come bundled in a wooden box/coffin that sound phenomenally good, but we're usually talking astronomically high end.

With planar speakers, in contrast, the sound is coming from a large plane situated in space in front of the listener (you have a six foot tall speaker that is 25 inches wide -- you can imagine how much air gets pushed by that beastly mama!)

The end result -- they are super snappy, breathtakingly fast, so you can't help but sway your whole body in rhythm, tap your foot, bob your head, even can't resist but jump up and dance!

technobear
05-01-2011, 21:35
For DACs, jitter is critical to good timing and musical flow. High jitter makes the sound boring and uninvolving.

For speakers, crossovers are a pernicious evil as far as timing and coherence are concerned. The crossover guarantees that the sound will be advanced or delayed by different amounts at different frequencies because it introduces phase distortion. With good design it is possible to get the phase angle to largely match between adjacent drivers but this doesn't help with the fact that the speaker as a whole is still varying the phase in a way that varies with frequency, thereby smearing the sound and reducing coherence.

Cone speakers done right can be very musical but there aren't many that really get it right.