View Full Version : Current turntable thinking...Question
Chaps,
This question stems from ignorance, so be gentle...
I pretty much switched to the digital, rightly or wrongly ;), around the late eighties. I still have my old Linn Axis from back then (too lazy to change speeds manually) in order to play my vinyl, recently renovated with a new belt and cartridge (DL110).
I know the Axis hardly represents the pinnacle of belt drive turntables, but that's not where my question stems from.
Perhaps this is from ignorance, or bad advice at the time, but back in the eighties there seemed to be 2 camps, the 'belt drivers', and the 'direct drivers' as it were.
Rightly or wrongly I was under the impression that the audiophile side of the community were more 'belt drivers', linn, rega, pink triangle etc., and that direct drive turntables such as technics etc were slightly frowned upon.
Now it's patently clear from this forum that there are a lot of very serious vinyl users who employ Technics as their turntable of choice. I'm presuming they're still direct drive, as it would be useless for DJing.
So was I being told bollocks back in the eighties, or have there been advances in direct drive turntable technology in the last couple of decades, or perhaps a bit of both. :scratch:
EDIT; As I've just spotted technics replacement belts on Ebay I'm now completely confused :scratch::scratch::scratch:
Here's what I think happened...
Back in the 60's and before, enthusiasts used idler drive transcription tuntables such as Garrard 301s, 401s Lencos etc. Then came along Thorens belt brive TTs and in the USA the AR turntable. Ariston and Linn derived almost identical TTs from the Thorens design. Japanese manufacturers developed quartz-locked direct drive TTs.
Linn's Ivor Tiefenbrun managed to convince the Hi-fi industry (especially the magazines) that everything other than his belt drive TT was pants and if you thought any differently you were either deaf, stupid or probably both. The Hi Fi community bought it hook, line and sinker. A few other TTs came along and were accepted by the Hi Fi industry as OK, but these were invariably lightweight, suspended subchassis belt drive designs (Rega, Pink Triangle, Roksan etc) and were thus similar enough to the Linn Lp12 to have a chance of sounding decent.
Some decades later (when Linns influence over the magazines etc had deminished somewhat), people started to listen to old Garrard 401s and 301s and discover that they actually sounded better in some respects than the belt-drives that replaced them. Slightly later still, people started to revisit the direct drive TTs and discover the same thing.
All IMHO...
Here's what I think happened...
Back in the 60's and before, enthusiasts used idler drive transcription tuntables such as Garrard 301s, 401s Lencos etc. Then came along Thorens belt brive TTs and in the USA the AR turntable. Ariston and Linn derived almost identical TTs from the Thorens design. Japanese manufacturers developed quartz-locked direct drive TTs.
Linn's Ivor Tiefenbrun managed to convince the Hi-fi industry (especially the magazines) that everything other than his belt drive TT was pants and if you thought any differently you were either deaf, stupid or probably both. The Hi Fi community bought it hook, line and sinker. A few other TTs came along and were accepted by the Hi Fi industry as OK, but these were invariably lightweight, suspended subchassis belt drive designs (Rega, Pink Triangle, Roksan etc) and were thus similar enough to the Linn Lp12 to have a chance of sounding decent.
Some decades later (when Linns influence over the magazines etc had deminished somewhat), people started to listen to old Garrard 401s and 301s and discover that they actually sounded better in some respects than the belt-drives that replaced them. Slightly later still, people started to revisit the direct drive TTs and discover the same thing.
All IMHO...
Cheers for the response Keith.
Very interesting indeed :eyebrows:
I could never get on with the fully 'manual' belt drives. I'd had an Ariston (perhaps RD2, the one like a tripod cake tin about '84), which required a manual speed change, slightly better than the LP12 which needed a 'gear' change, and as a lot of my stuff at the time was 12"s with no easily identifiable speed marking, getting the speed wrong, and the whole manual process for a 4 minute track became fecking annoying. :steam:
So for reasons of convenience I then moved onto a Dual 505 (I think that was the model), which I ultimately replaced with the 'soft boy's' Linn, 'The Axis'.
I can now therefore see the appeal of the Technics, which I've always liked aesthetically, convenience and sound quality.
:)
Here's what I think happened...
Back in the 60's and before, enthusiasts used idler drive transcription tuntables such as Garrard 301s, 401s Lencos etc. Then came along Thorens belt brive TTs and in the USA the AR turntable. Ariston and Linn derived almost identical TTs from the Thorens design. Japanese manufacturers developed quartz-locked direct drive TTs.
Linn's Ivor Tiefenbrun managed to convince the Hi-fi industry (especially the magazines) that everything other than his belt drive TT was pants and if you thought any differently you were either deaf, stupid or probably both. The Hi Fi community bought it hook, line and sinker. A few other TTs came along and were accepted by the Hi Fi industry as OK, but these were invariably lightweight, suspended subchassis belt drive designs (Rega, Pink Triangle, Roksan etc) and were thus similar enough to the Linn Lp12 to have a chance of sounding decent.
Some decades later (when Linns influence over the magazines etc had deminished somewhat), people started to listen to old Garrard 401s and 301s and discover that they actually sounded better in some respects than the belt-drives that replaced them. Slightly later still, people started to revisit the direct drive TTs and discover the same thing.
All IMHO...
You know what you are talking about, most impressive. There is an article from David Price in this month's Hi-Fi world which more or less agrees with everything so far written in this small thread.
You know what you are talking about
Not really. Just my perception of what happened. I'm sure there will be someone who really does know what they're talking about along soon.
Sent from my HTC Tattoo using Tapatalk
hifi_dave
04-01-2011, 17:30
Not sure if I am in that category but it certainly wasn't that way for everybody.
As a Hi-Fi journalist and Hi-Fi dealer from the early 70's, I was never badgered into selling the LP12 above all other TT's. It was one of the best turntables available at that time and we were left to our own devices to sell it or not. I certainly never encountered any strong-arm tactics from Linn.
All the hundreds of LP12's we sold were fairly demonstrated up against a wide variety of other turntables including DD's, solid designs, solid high mass models and other bouncy decks. The LP12 sold on it's merit and as a dealer we really appreciated it's build quality, reliability and back up. Something you couldn't say for all it's competitors.
I also think we have learned how to get more out of both Idler designs and Direct Drive. So for instance with Idler plinth design can really help to overcome rumble issues and with direct drives more careful consideration to issues like clean power supply bearings and platter can improve performance We owe a great debt to the DIY community and passionate enthusiasts who have promoted the advantages and understanding of how to best implement
Not sure if I am in that category but it certainly wasn't that way for everybody.
As a Hi-Fi journalist and Hi-Fi dealer from the early 70's, I was never badgered into selling the LP12 above all other TT's. It was one of the best turntables available at that time and we were left to our own devices to sell it or not. I certainly never encountered any strong-arm tactics from Linn.
All the hundreds of LP12's we sold were fairly demonstrated up against a wide variety of other turntables including DD's, solid designs, solid high mass models and other bouncy decks. The LP12 sold on it's merit and as a dealer we really appreciated it's build quality, reliability and back up. Something you couldn't say for all it's competitors.
Just about everyone I knew who was into Hi-Fi in the 80's aspired to an LP12, so I doubt anyone needed to badger the dealers, the problem was probably meeting demand...:)
I also think we have learned how to get more out of both Idler designs and Direct Drive. So for instance with Idler plinth design can really help to overcome rumble issues and with direct drives more careful consideration to issues like clean power supply bearings and platter can improve performance We owe a great debt to the DIY community and passionate enthusiasts who have promoted the advantages and understanding of how to best implement
Perhaps the problem that the 'belt drive' configuration sought to overcome is no longer an issue, i.e. there are better motors and power supplies available for DD turntables...
Just about everyone I knew who was into Hi-Fi in the 80's aspired to an LP12, so I doubt anyone needed to badger the dealers, the problem was probably meeting demand...:)
I always wanted one. I had an Axis/Basik/K9 and fully intended to upgrade to an LP12, but when the time came, a fully fitted-out LP12 was looking expensive and I ended up with a GyroDec instead.
So back in the 80's no one sold products on the premise of the highest profit margin get's pushed first and supplier pressure, meeting sales targets etc, etc?
I was a DJ and audiophile in the 80's and never aspired to anything Linn cos to be honest it was too expensive and fiddly to set up, but that's just me!
Techno Commander
04-01-2011, 20:34
Just about everyone I knew who was into Hi-Fi in the 80's aspired to an LP12,
I didnt.:) And wouldnt go near one with somebody elses barge pole.
I did have a belt drive Pink Triangle. The decks I aspired to (back then) were either a better PT, a Gyrodec or a Townshend Rock.
I always wanted one. I had an Axis/Basik/K9 and fully intended to upgrade to an LP12, but when the time came, a fully fitted-out LP12 was looking expensive and I ended up with a GyroDec instead.
Ah yes that little obstacle, they always were 'reassuringly expensive'...
Looks like we had the same Axis setup, I've only just fixed mine, new belt & hinges, I've found the Denon DL110 is big improvement on the previous K9 I was using, and seems a good match for the Bask+ arm. Not brilliant but good enough for the occasional evening of vinyl.
The GyroDec is a thing of beauty, is it auto speed change?
I didnt.:) And wouldnt go near one with somebody elses barge pole.
I did have a belt drive Pink Triangle. The decks I aspired to (back then) were either a better PT, a Gyrodec or a Townshend Rock.
Wasn't the Townsend Rock about £10K!!! With an air 'suspended' arm or something of that nature...
So back in the 80's no one sold products on the premise of the highest profit margin get's pushed first and supplier pressure, meeting sales targets etc, etc?
I was a DJ and audiophile in the 80's and never aspired to anything Linn cos to be honest it was too expensive and fiddly to set up, but that's just me!
That would be a task and a half, DJing with a pair of LP12's :doh:
'Hang on while I find the 45rpm gear...oh shit it's 33.3rpm' :steam:
That would be a task and a half, DJing with a pair of LP12's :doh:
'Hang on while I find the 45rpm gear...oh shit it's 33.3rpm' :steam:
No,no,no. SL1200's for DJ's and LP12 for audiophiles, everyone knew that back then.....
:gig:
I didnt.:) And wouldnt go near one with somebody elses barge pole.
I did have a belt drive Pink Triangle. The decks I aspired to (back then) were either a better PT, a Gyrodec or a Townshend Rock.
Probably just my stupid mates, one of which I remember had about £3k's worth of LP12 with all the bells and whistles...and about 50 albums, most of which were rubbish...a slight balance problem I think :lol:
No,no,no. SL1200's for DJ's and LP12 for audiophiles, everyone knew that back then.....
:gig:
jjjjjjjjjjjjjuuuuuuuuuuuusssssssssst wwwaaaiiiit till it speeds up :doh:
The GyroDec is a thing of beauty, is it auto speed change?
Nope. Flip the belt on the motor pulley to change speed. Easy to do though as the motor pulley is 'out in the open'
Don't have it (or any turntable) anymore. Change in circumstances forced sale :(
That would be a task and a half, DJing with a pair of LP12's :doh:
'Hang on while I find the 45rpm gear...oh shit it's 33.3rpm' :steam:
:rofl: DJ LINN IN DA HOUSE!!!! Not so much Happy Hardcore as Sappy Hardbore :rofl:
Or maybe Soporific House/Trance Daze/Dumb & Based
Disclaimer: Not a comment on LP12 performance, more a comment concerning playing 12" singles on a one speed deck
I've read a few posts from people selling in the 70's who all seeem to concur that actually the Linn LP12 / Ariston RD11 were excellent turntables when they came out and that they floored most of the competition for build and sound quality at the time.
A lot of the dealers say they weren't bullied into selling LP12's but Linn were just better for build, servicing, publicity, supply and quality control compared to other manufacturers in the same or even lower price category.
LP12's became a 'must have' for many people despite the HiFi press also giving great reviews to Systemdek, Thorens, Rega, Technics, JVC, Denon, etc
I've owned both Linn & Ariston and a number of other belt drives / suspended decks and many are excellent still. The Pink Triangle turntables are fantastic sounding TT's and possibly my favourite but I sold mine because the PT electronics and bearings are just too delicate for my liking.
In the 70's tinternet didn't exist and the DIY / aftermarket industry I imagine just wasn't as widespread or accessible as it is now.
It seems that Idlers like Garrards and particularly Goldring Lencos are so popular because they can be upgraded and tweaked and knowledge of what to do and how to do it comes almost exclusivley from the interweb.
The point I am meandering along to try and make is similar to others in that for quite a while Linn's sold well because they sounded better, were easier to get hold of and had better support.
The MK2 SL1200/1210's & the like from Technics weren't around until 1980 and the other japanese DD's of quality were not widely available in the same numbers as British belt drives.
By the time people caught on that Linn's were not the dogs CD was taking over and had it not been for the DJ market then the SL12**'s would have died out a long time ago. If it wasn't for the tinternet in the last few years then many people would still discount them as DJ decks and not HiFi at all.
From the mid 80's onwards most manufacturers started making poorer quality decks and as we know many have now gone bust.
To be honest if my choices were mainly between a lightweight mass produced plastic DD or a more solidly built belt drive I'd go for the belt drive anyday and I would recommend the same to anyone.
Its only because I've tried 40 odd decks in the last 5 years that I've gone for a Technics SL1210 / SL7 & eventually I'll have an SP10 too.
Does that make sense?
Nope. Flip the belt on the motor pulley to change speed. Easy to do though as the motor pulley is 'out in the open'
Don't have it (or any turntable) anymore. Change in circumstances forced sale :(
Ah I remember from your other thread...I recognise the system, very nice!
I've become so used to my squeezebox system that the idea of getting up to change CD's seems like hard work, never mind changing gears on a TT ;)
To be honest if my choices were mainly between a lightweight mass produced plastic DD or a more solidly built belt drive I'd go for the belt drive anyday and I would recommend the same to anyone.
Its only because I've tried 40 odd decks in the last 5 years that I've gone for a Technics SL1210 / SL7 & eventually I'll have an SP10 too.
Does that make sense?
I think so but lets check my understanding...:scratch:
Are you therefore saying that the Technics is a solidly built DD and is preferable to most belt drives, which are in turn preferable to flimsy DD's?
I notice you have a DL160, I really like the DL110 I'm using on my Axis, (but the suspension isn't what it was, a common issue with the Axis), would this be reasonably compatible with an SL1210? And what model would outperform something like the Axis?...tough question I know
By the late 70's, the far eastern control over most UK HiFi grade systems was starting to wane and the direct driven decks available in the UK, by and large, became less and less popular with the growing number of "in" dealers - the Linn and Naim ones primarily. Dealers like us didn't see many alternatives for a few years as clients either stayed away, or the manufacturers.distributers stayed away because of "our" negative attitude to alternative products (takes one to know one and I was one for a while). However, the dealership I worked for wasn't totally Linn-centric. We didn't do Systemdeck, as the IIX-900 didn't cost hugely more than a Rega but took loads of setting up, but we did sell the Manticore Mantra (LP12 mini-me), Heybrook TT2, which got better and better, Revolver and the Rock II, which was so good and, as Max demonstrated using a Decca with Pod, so close to CD using well mastered LP's and CD's of the same album :)
By the very late eighties, we were getting decks of all sorts for cartridge and/or tonearm upgrades. This was when I got the chance to hear the old Techies in a fresh light, and how good they really could be with modern cartridges and decent support equipment. I had loads of fun also with AR's, Lencos and Thorens machines :)
I know I'm possibly a lone voice here, but the drive system is irrelevant to music anjoyment via vinyl records. The Techie does have its strong points, but the upgrade path is an expensive one and many fellas may feel compelled to follow that path to techie nirvana. On the other hand, one can have huge enjoyment from a Rega, Pro-Ject or Thorens deck, which should give a well balanced perspective on what's there. of course, there's the used market too, although the better known decks are commanding higher prices these days (Lenco (G)L75 the latest one to shoot up in value).
I must admit, I had never considered the Technics decks as “audiophile” decks until I joined this forum. In fact, if anyone had said they were my response would have been, don’t be silly.
It’s not that I was a Linn fan either, had one, fussy bugger, sounded different every time the temperature change, upgrades started to get silly expensive and the basic deck wasn’t all that anyway imo.
I’ve always liked Thorens decks. They were the DIY tweakers gold standard back in the day and even now I’m fairly certain that if you put the kind of money the Technics chaps here do into a Thorens it would sound just as good.
I’ve yet to hear a tweaked Technics deck but given the it seems an outlay of £3000 is needed to make it sing it will need to be bloody good before I say “don’t be silly”.
Fortunately I don’t have to worry about all that now.
Hi Will
What I would say is this:
I have used my Mission 774SM arm with a DL160 (wonderful combination) on both a Pink Triangle PT1 & now on a Technics SL1210. (Its been on other decks too)
Both sound superb but for me the PT1 gets it every time. It is just such a beautiful musical deck, sometimes made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end, made me smile and gave me goosebumps listening to it. As stock it needs no tweaking to get it to close to Hi-end sound, just a damn good arm.
The SL1210 / 774SM / DL160 is a close second and sounds bloody great, blows most other decks I've owned out of the water but in all honesty needs a Funk Firm Achromat, possibly Isonoe feet & maybe even external PSU to get up to the PT1 standard.
However I've sold the PT1 and will stick with the SL1210 because:
it does sound so great as is;
is renowned for reliability;
has a sturdy sturdy build & design I quite like
and compared to most vintage TT's there is relatively easy access to spare parts.
The PT1 is very delicate particularly its bearing and electronics and spares of any kind for it are essentially made of unobtainium and so I personally didn't have a lot of faith for its long term future if I'd kept it.
As for cheaper, lighter DD's I'd rather have a Rega P2 or 3 than most of the ones I've seen, owned or heard about.
I think that back in the 70's & 80's had the interweb been around the TT market place / history of 'triumphant' makes and models may have been quite different to what actually happened.
Not sure if that answers your questions?
P.S. I've no experience of a Linn Basik or Axis but the latter has always had good reviews by people who've owned them.
P.P.S. the SP10 that Vantage Audio are refurbishing for me is a strange one really. I've never invested so heavily in a deck just out of curiosity and still not sure why I bought it, but if it does kick the arse off my SL1210 I'll be a very very happy man.
Spectral Morn
05-01-2011, 00:02
sadly I was pulled up recently on something I once said about a Technics 1200/1210..... I can't remember when but I guess it was maybe three years agoish.......
Customer "I have a Technics turntable :)"
Me "Why would you want one of those ? " what an ignorant plank I was at that point :doh::( I should have said "tell me more, I would love to hear it" However I didn't.....stupid ignorant plank.
My view was that DD turntables.....all DD turntables were not very good as the motors fed vibration into the platter and belt drives didn't.....and no I didn't sell Linns.
I know different now :)
Regards D S D L
The Grand Wazoo
05-01-2011, 00:05
To answer one or two questions from earlier in this thread:
The Rock MkII was £299 when I became interested in it. The plinth cost an extra £99. The Excalibur arm was another £299 & there was a big power supply that I can't remember the price of.
The Gyrodec has a switchable speed change if you have the big PSU.
When I had proper cash to spend on a turntable (1991, I think), I auditioned the Linn, Roksan, PT Anniversary & Export but thought the Michell beat the lot into a cocked hat. I was going against all sorts of perceived wisdom at the time & it was only later that the Gyro became accepted as being more than just 'nice to look at'.
Hi John,
I’ve yet to hear a tweaked Technics deck but given the it seems an outlay of £3000 is needed to make it sing it will need to be bloody good before I say “don’t be silly”.
Lol - I wouldn't say you needed £3k to make it sing, more like £1k. Spend £3k on it, however (as I have roughly), and what you end up with is a T/T that can take on pretty much anything on the market :)
Marco.
Hi Neil,
sadly I was pulled up recently on something I once said about a Technics 1200/1210..... I can't remember when but I guess it was maybe three years agoish.......
Customer "I have a Technics turntable "
Me "Why would you want one of those ? " what an ignorant plank I was at that point ( I should have said "tell me more, I would love to hear it" However I didn't.....stupid ignorant plank.
My view was that DD turntables.....all DD turntables were not very good as the motors fed vibration into the platter and belt drives didn't.....and no I didn't sell Linns.
I know different now :)
It just shows how easy it is to become short-sighted and blinkered. I would love to expose the whole of the UK audio community to what you've experienced in the hope that for some of them, the penny might drop!
However, much would depend on how firmly the Linn/Rega/Michell/SME/Roksan über alles chip was embedded into their domes....! ;)
I'm not saying that there's necessarily anything wrong with those T/Ts, but rather those are what most people in the UK were conditioned into believing were the 'de-facto choices' of the day, whether they were in fact sonically the best at their respective price points or not.
Quality Jap direct-drive T/Ts were so ignorantly and wrongly ignored.
It's the age-old 'belt-drive is best' brainwashing that AoS and I are slowly but surely eroding!
Marco.
Must admit I was never interested in the LP12, in fact I'd never heard of it when I bought my Rock mk2 in 1986 for 299 squid with moth rb250 and Denon DL-110. From a shop in Glasgow off some bloke called John who now builds PU7 tonearms. I later bought the plinth for 120 squids. I'd had a Garrard DD130 direct drive TT previously and the rock was so much better at everything. It's just a pain swapping the belt onto the other pulley for 45s, but only because I always forget to swap it back. Yes I still do it and I've had the thing since 1986 maybe I should keep an eye out for a Merlin PSU.
I see a good turntable about good engineering balances this is true of what ever drive system is used
To get a good belt drive TT you need a heavy platter, a good speed control (motor) as you can get and a good chassis so that you can achieve good isolation. The reason for the heavy platter is to have the platter act as a flywheel to compensate for the slippage. I think the main thing to remember is how bloody sensitive the cartridge is it is at picking up all those slight micro alterations.
Last week I visited my friend and whilst we were mostly listening to my DAC and his speakers we finished with playing with the Salvation. After intial listening Vic used a big transformer in front of the supply to the motor, the improvement in dynamics was staggering I never heard Transiant attack like that on any other Turntable or system Its hard to put a sonic character just increadable realism and so musical. It just was proving to me how critical power supply to the motor is I suspect the same thing is happening with the 1210 from everything I read, the cleaner you can get that power the better it will perform.
Like Neil when I first joined AOS I was very skeptical about the 1210, its only when I heard Marco's I could really start to understand his passion
Well, the TD125 is a good springy belt drive, the motor electronically driven, the main bearing on mine tight as a virgin's ***** and background and surface noise vey low indeed with no bloom at all.
You know, I don't think Technics were marketing the SL1210 on the HiFi market in the 80's. I do remember some of their excellent later integrated amps, for which Martin Colloms was paid a consultancy fee I'm told, some of their cassette decks were well liked too as well as their little MASH CD players at the bottom end, but I just don't remember any mention at all about the SL1210 until ken Kessler "exposed" it back in the late nineties and raved about a Gold version fitted with a Lyra cartridge.
As I said before, the Rock was a great turntable, if a bit scrappy in finish sometimes (plaster platter from memory) and the LP12 cerytainly sexed up so many iffy 1970's rock albums and enhanced the sound of 1980's classics. I must admit it was a shock to hear these albums on the Mentor/Microscanner, as the fulsome but ultimately ill-defined bass I once thought "correct," was replaced by a powerful, deep but very much clearer bass from the NAS. The TD125 retains the clarity, but not the "meat."
Hi Dave,
You know, I don't think Technics were marketing the SL1210 on the HiFi market in the 80's.
Point taken - and you may be right. However, quality Jap direct-drive T/Ts didn't start and finish with the SL-1200/1210 - far from it.
There was a whole raft of top-notch Jap D/Ds produced in the 70s and 80s that were being used around Europe, which were completely ignored by the UK hi-fi press and most dealers, due mainly (but not entirely) to an obsession with the fruitbox from Glasgow.... :rolleyes:
We (the punters and enthusiasts) lost out on so much interesting and genuinely superb kit (not just T/Ts) because of that, and a sense of misplaced patriotism that 'British was always best'! :mental:
How I wish that Internet forums, such as AoS, had been around then to burst the bubble of 'Linn-o-mania'!
Marco.
I've become so used to my squeezebox system that the idea of getting up to change CD's seems like hard work, never mind changing gears on a TT ;)
I think getting up to change a record or CD is part of the mental preparation. To be honest, I don't want everything available at the touch of a button, I want to think about what I'm playing next.
I notice you have a DL160, I really like the DL110 I'm using on my Axis, (but the suspension isn't what it was, a common issue with the Axis), would this be reasonably compatible with an SL1210?
Yes, the DL-110 and DL-160 offer a little MC magic for not a lot of notes and work very well in lightweight arms, as opposed to the DL-103 which doesn't.
I’ve yet to hear a tweaked Technics deck but given the it seems an outlay of £3000 is needed to make it sing it will need to be bloody good before I say “don’t be silly”.
I calculate that I've spent a total of about £4500 on my modified Technics deck and arm, but that includes a stonkingly expensive arm that I wanted for reasons of lust. All-in, I would say that the sound I get represents excellent value for money and outperforms what I've heard when listening to a fully tricked out £14k Linn. To be honest, only the almighty expensive Continuum has sounded significantly better to my ears.
To 'make a Technics sing' you realistically need to spend about £1k on it. Not bad at all when you look at what else is available.
P.S. snap, Marco! I wrote this before I read your piece. Of course, the £1k becomes distorted depending on how much a SL-12xx costs now.
Techno Commander
05-01-2011, 10:44
You know, I don't think Technics were marketing the SL1210 on the HiFi market in the 80's.
It was definitely in the Hi Fi brochure around 1985. (or the 1200 was)
I had quite a bit of Technics kit back then.:)
chris@panteg
05-01-2011, 11:42
It was definitely in the Hi Fi brochure around 1985. (or the 1200 was)
I had quite a bit of Technics kit back then.:)
This is true but i think it was marketed as a semi pro TT , i'm pretty certain Panasonic were thinking of the DJ community when they made the MK2 revisons.
I'm afraid i fell into the belt is best thing of the 80's , i just accepted it and though was curious about the 1210 and especially the SP10 from 84 onwards i remained ignorant to what they can do .
I regret that but what's past is past , but what's so good today is the feeling of enlightenment ( i hope that don't sound too nobbish) , but you can try anything and there are plenty of good folk on forum's like this one who are willing to help and make suggestion's , it was so different back in the 80's with that git ' Frankland ' saying things like a Rega 2 outperforms the LO7D and the famous NAD 3020 pissing over Krell and Audio Research .
Anyone remember the Flatulant response joke ?
As I said, I’ve not heard a tweaked Technics so I’m not really in a position to make comparisons. However, should I become interested in record players again even at £3000 the Technics seems very competitive given the current prices of the current esoteric record players.
What I find interesting is different forums/Hi Fi media have their particular “reference” components all of which are purported to be the best while a great deal of excellent equipment is hardly mentioned and doesn’t achieve similar cult status. The Hadcock GH Series tone arms for example, which I had one of for a while and thought excellent, rarely got the same accolades as other arms produced by Linn and SME.
Similarly, the Ariston turntable which to my ears sounded just as good as the Linn virtually disappeared as an “audiophiles” choice in the late 70’s.
I have a sneaking suspicion a lot of Hi Fi is more about fashion and fad than sound quality and value.
it was so different back in the 80's with that git ' Frankland ' saying things like a Rega 2 outperforms the LO7D and the famous NAD 3020 pissing over Krell and Audio Research .
Anyone remember the Flatulant response joke ?
He was a strange one, I do remember his articles in Hi-Fi Answers and the Flat Response and it's hard now to believe how incredibly biased and single-minded he was. His musical tastes were dire too - remember Ben Sidran, seemed to be the only music he used to evaluate equipment. Actually, that could explain lots...
Hi John,
The Hadcock GH Series tone arms for example, which I had one of for a while and thought excellent, rarely got the same accolades as other arms produced by Linn and SME.
Indeed. I had a Hadcock GH242 Integra for some time and enjoyed it very much. Old George H was also a lovely chap, and most helpful. He and I had many conversations on the phone about hi-fi and life in general.
Tell you what - I'd have a Hadcock any day over ANY stock Rega tonearm, or bollocks like a Linn Akito!
I also have a friend who uses a Hadcock to great effect on his SP10 (with a DL-103R!) - fab tonearms, and much underrated. The early examples were rather 'home-made' looking, but the latest ones are finely constructed things of beauty.
Why are they underrated? Because, quite simply, they are aimed at genuine enthusiasts – they are not marketed as 'the latest and greatest thing' or promoted in the hi-fi press.
It's the same with quite a few similar products these days - the real gems are often those least shouted about, which is why it pays to think outside of the box in hi-fi, and not simply go blindly buying the 'usual suspects'.....
Marco.
Rare Bird
05-01-2011, 13:16
Hi John,
Indeed. I had a Hadcock GH242 Integra for some time and enjoyed it very much. Old George H was also a lovely chap, and most helpful. He and I had many conversations on the phone about hi-fi and life in general.
Tell you what - I'd have a Hadcock any day over ANY stock Rega tonearm, or bollocks like a Linn Akito!
I also have a friend who uses a Hadcock to great effect on his SP10 (with a DL-103R!) - fab tonearms, and much underrated. The early examples were rather 'home-made' looking, but the latest ones are finely constructed things of beauty.
Why are they underrated? Because, quite simply, they are aimed at genuine enthusiasts – they are not marketed as 'the latest and greatest thing' or promoted in the hi-fi press.
It's the same with quite a few similar products these days - the real gems are often those least shouted about, which is why it pays to think outside of the box in hi-fi, and not simply go blindly buying the 'usual suspects'.....
Marco.
I've had more tonearms than i care to remember but was always a low mass man.I was also a unipivot nut, i loved the Mayware F4 to bits..just sounds so open.the price at the time was just so cheap for the given SQ it was crazy.
I never hear anyone with one but if some sees the old Mayware 'T24/II' transformer they wanna grab it.
flatpopely
05-01-2011, 16:23
Just thought I'd raise my head here!
Ow (thought it would not take long to be shot)
Andrew.
Ow (thought it would not take long to be shot)
Who got you? :)
Mr Welder,
The Aristons disappeared because they were badly made, many of the RD11 bearings either being too soft, or chrome plated (with flaking chrome...). the RD80 changed its setup just by moving it (springs didn't self centre well) and the RD40 seemed to lose out to the Systemdek and was sold through second and third rank dealers.
As for Hadcock tonearms. Old George may have been a lovely old man and the basic performance was great, but the fit and finish of the components was apalling, especially when the now silly priced Jap made arms were affordable then and around the same price. I've set so many of the 228's up in my time, I was glad to see the back of them to be honest - they used to all but fall to bits when first taken out of their boxes.
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