another convert

[hughmc2]

hello everybody,
after a long absence I am now getting back into my music. The LP's came down from the attic last summer and I was lucky enough to read a piece on the Technics SL1210 before I went down the road of Rega's, Pro-jects, etc.
My last TT before that was a Garrard GT25 which I got for my 21st !!

Since added an Arcam A32, CD23, Denon TU1800, MF X-Can V2, CA640P and a pair of Quad 21L's in Birdseye Maple.

I know the Quads can probably be beaten but I think they look great in my living room. I'm afraid I'm a bit of a weird fish for this forum. I couldn't sit listening to £25k worth of gear with wires all over the place, pizza boxes all over the floor and LP's in vegetable baskets. Serious OCD I'm afraid. Yes, my LP's and CD's are in genre/alphabetical/release order.

My kids think I've got some new form of dyslexia where I read "cool" when actually it says "sad". ...........What do they know ?

Every sunday I've been up at 5.00am and off to 2 carboots. Got some brilliant LP's. Pick of the bunch so far was a box which amongst some dross contained Claptons "Crossroads" 6 Lp boxed set, Led Zep III, Beatles "Love Songs" and a copy of James Brown "Godfather of Soul" which had never been on a deck ! The woman said she was clearing out her late fathers place and wanted £5 for the box. He must have been looking down on me because I couldn't rob her and paid her a bit more than the asking. 2 stalls later he rewarded me with a Led Zep "In through the out door" still in the brown paper bag.

My set up has come to a bit of a standstill now though. I want to upgrade and I've got the cash saved up but where to go ??? Been looking at a maybe better phonostage. My trouble is I always struggle to see the Kings New Clothes. The best upgrade so far has been some 63mm black granite plinths. Don't know why it does what it does but they really helped the Quads. I managed to pick them up for £40 a pair ( through my job ). Once I've been into the forum a while I might be able to get some more if anybody wants to come and collect from Hinckley. They come "flamed" on the top and sawcut on the other sides but if you put 2 coats of clear laquer on them they look the biz.

Anyway, I think I've bored you enough for now. I'll be on for lots of advice very soon.
thanks

Hugh.

[Marco]

Hi Hugh,

Welcome to AoS - what a superb (and textbook) introduction :)

So how did you find us? Glad we stopped you from buying the same old bollocks turntables that every Tom, Dick and Harry goes for, simply because that's what is popular and/or advertised in the press.

Trust me, your thinking outside of the box in that respect will be rewarded! What bits have you got on your Techie?

Enjoy the forum and visit us often! :cool:

Marco.

[hughmc2]

thanks for the welcome Marco.

I've just updated my profile. My SL1210 has no mods so far.

I'm afraid that as a time served engineer it's a serious case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. I want to belive the experts when they tell me that you need a one piece arm for ridgity but then they seem to contradict themselves when they talk about resonance. Surely if you want to break up a wave you put a tidal breaker in. Or in our case a joint.

And nothing in the world is going to make me believe that the cantilever moving in the cartridge exerts a shear stress or bending moment into the tonearm. I am sure I am going to be proved wrong but that sounds like saying the pilot of a 747 puts pressure on the body of the aircraft when he moves in his seat.

So far changing to the AT440MLa, the granite slabs and moving the speakers 2" further from the back wall ( advice from someone on another forum ) have all made a difference. What do you suggest for the next move. I've got about £1k in the upgrade kitty.

[Jac Hawk]

Welcome aboard hugh, you'll find a great bunch of guys here, who are more than eager to help with advice etc.

I've only been a member a short time myself, but i must say, whatever question i might have, there seems to be someone who has knowledge on the subject, which is a great help when you're just easing your way back into the world of hifi. :)

[Spectral Morn]

Welcome to AOS Hugh

Enjoy the forum and have fun.


Regards D S D L

[Mr Pig]

Hello and welcome, new here myself :0)

With the tonearm thing it's more a case of trying to match the resonance of the cartridge with an arm that can deal with them.

The design and type of cartridge determines the way it'll dump energy into the arm. You want an arm that does not ring in sympathy, sort of. A relatively small transducer will happily set of plenty of ringing in a much larger structure if the resonant frequencies match up. If this happens in a tonearm, and it usually does, then the vibration obviously feeds back into the cartridge.

But the arm has to be light enough for the stylus to move yet rigid enough to give the cartridge a solid platform to work on. Damping would seem to be the obvious solution but often results in a very dead sound. It's an interesting problem.

[Beechwoods]

Welcome to AOS Hugh! It sounds like you've got a real passion for music, some great car-boot finds there - the early bird obviously catches the worm :) Glad you've found us and I hope you enjoy it here.

[hughmc2]

thanks all,

Mr Pig - I've read your posting about 4 times and it's beginning to sink in.

Feels like 1st day at Hifi College :scratch:

Think i better get genned up before I spend any money.

[DSJR]

Welcome Hugh :)

PLEASE stay a good long while and temper some of our wilder excesses where engineering is concerned. A few genuine reasoned engineering based discussions is just what this forum needs..

What goes round, comes back around and hopefully, better next time... Tonearm resonances were measured with a medium to low compliance mc cartridge and an accelerometer I believe (I can do scans of the old HiFi Choice tests if you're interested) and indeed, these resonances do exist. Solid glued or one-piece tonearms tended to be very "clean" in the midrange, but some could take off at higher frequencies, imparting a little extra zip and sparkle into otherwise dull cartridges. The Ittok tonearm was a classic example and is still a fine arm if the deck and cartridge like it - carefully engineered too, with the horizontal bearing beam designed to be held at one end only and not clamped in the jaws of a bearing "yoke" as the Regas are...

On the other hand, the detachable headshell arms made popular by the SME 3009's in the 60's (not forgetting Ortofon who may have developed it first?) all exhibit a resonance break at 300 - 400Hz. How this is dealt with is a different matter and the Japanese audiophools with a zillion cartridges each (one for each track :lol:) tend to use heavier solid headshells to stop the resonance being a problem. The better detachable arms seem better at high frequencies perhaps.

To try to put things into perspective, the middle HiFi market has all but gone and second hand classics now take the lions share I feel. This has put classic tonearms such as the Ittok and Alphason HR100S up to several hundred quid for a good one and old far eastern classics like the Stax UA7, Micro Seiki MA 505 and Fidelity Research 64S for example, now fetch thousands of they're mint (the FR especially). By comparison, the arm fitted to the Techie as supplied may be looked upon as a cheap get-ya-going type of product. In fact, I believe that the desire behind this arm was to get the moving mass and inertia down as low as reasonably possible and the price paid was resonances if the cartridge wasn't carefully matched.

[Gawd, I don't arf go on - apologies]

I'd still suggest the sorbothane boots (or experiments with directly coupling the plinth to something massy, which works a treat with the old SL150 I had) at least, a Sumiko shell which comes with decent wires and is a good solid product at fair price and a different mat - there's an acrylic/perspex type mat on fleabay for £25 which might be ok, although the Achromat 1200 is the cheapest big mat upgrade I think. AT440MLa? Definitely a goodie IMO if carefully set up - good tracing right to side end and a lively and clear presentation. The Denon DL110 is still a favourite and there's a Pickering XV15 with fine-line tip at £130 or thereabouts too..

Lecture over :D

[MartinT]

Damping would seem to be the obvious solution but often results in a very dead sound.

I believe that's where the Dynavector solution of eddy current magnetic damping is unique in arms and works very well. No deadness in its sound, quite the reverse in fact.

[Mr Pig]

Think I better get genned up before I spend any money.

Understanding the theory doesn't really help you much. It's more a matter of personal taste as there doesn't seem to be a correct way to make a tonearm, they just sound different.

I tend to like rigid, un-damped ones myself. In fact when Johnny at Audio Origami rewired my arm I had to argue with him not to put damping in the arm tube! ;0) He was adamant that it would be better, I was adamant I didn't want it.

I've never been keen on the idea of removable headshells. Not because I think they'll not be rigid enough but because I doubt the likelihood of them staying that way. If you swap headshells a lot they'll wear. Any plug and socket that's cycled a lot will, it has to. I've seen headshells that you could twist left and right on the arm quite easily. Naa, give me a solid arm any day.

Like I say though, there is no right and wrong. Uni-pivots wobble all over the place but still seem to work just fine.

[synsei]

Hi Hugh and welcome to AoS mate :wave:

Put me down for a couple of granite slabs when the times right mate please. I'm not far away from you (Corby, Northants) so pick up won't be a problem. Hope you enjoy your stay with us, there are some fantastic peeps on AoS with a wealth of knowledge as I have discovered in my short time here... :respect:

[hughmc2]

hi synsei,

ok mate. I can get the slabs in 295 x 295 x 60mm and 450 x 300 x 60mm but I will have to buy a pallet of them and get them delivered to my gaff. Then pay my lad a tenner ( 6' 6" - 2nd row ) to move them around the back. The big ones are only about £5 more than the smaller but they weigh about 27kg a piece !

I've attached a couple of photos of mine. I put 2 coats of Halfords clear laquer on mine.

When the weathers a bit better I will put a notice up on the forum. If we can get about 10 people interested I will get some. ( they were going to be used in Retail Developement that got shelved but so far no-one else knows they exist.

http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee443/hughmc2/stereo030.jpg

http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee443/hughmc2/stereo015.jpg

[synsei]

295 x 295 would be perfect for my Rogers. Here's hoping for an early spring and lots of interest... :cheers:

[Reid Malenfant]

<snip> 450 x 300 x 60mm


http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee443/hughmc2/stereo030.jpg

http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee443/hughmc2/stereo015.jpg
They look great Hugh, welcome to AoS by the way :)

I'd possibly be interested in some of the above 3394

[hughmc2]

thanks,
I've had a couple of other requests for some so I might get about 20 slabs delivered to my place. Do you think people would want them as they come or would they prefer them laquered up ?

I would probably add about £15 a pair to spray them. It takes a while because it seems to work better if you do each face sat horizontally ( no runs ). So 2 coats to each side x 5 sides x 15 minutes a side drying. You would think I would have something better to do :( Not as bad when you do about 10 at a time though.

[Reid Malenfant]

I'm sure some people might like them as they are, i'd include myself in that category. Others might like them laquered?

The only problem i've got is how to pick the things up :lol: If i can figure that one out you can definately put me down for a pair.

Right now i guess i can only go so far as saying i'm expressing an interest ;)

[synsei]

I'll pop yours over for you when I go get mine if you want Mark. I'll have mine 'nikid' please Hugh, gonna try polishing 'em up... ;)

[Reid Malenfant]

Really Dave? That's most excellent of you, of course i wouldn't dream of letting you do that without sorting you out the cost of your fuel ;)

[synsei]

We'll argue about that on the day mate. My car drinks tea and biscuits anyway... :lolsign:

[Reid Malenfant]

We'll argue about that on the day mate. My car drinks tea and biscuits anyway... :lolsign:
PMSL :eyebrows:

Ok, lets say i'll have a pair of the 450mm x 300mm x 60mm rather nice lumps of rock then Hugh ;)

[Batty]

A gentleman's car obviously if it drinks tea and biscuits.

[DavidF]

Hugh, like others I enjoyed reading your introduction.

Thanks for sharing!

[Chivas]

Hi guys

On the subject of resonance and rigid arms: I've been very curious about the cartridge man's isolator for a while now and decided to try one. I got it last weekend and it honestly does work (on my Sl 1210 with OL Encounter), but it makes absolutely no theoretical sense, it defies all theories. When I got it, I was actually quite disappointed, I expected something magic from outer space, but it literally does not seem like much more than a piece of foam between two stainless steel plates, you can easily compress it between your fingers (just like...foam!), yet it works!! So much for theories of rigidity and detacheable headshells being no good etc. :confused: