Rega Arm? Or something else? [Archive]

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 13:13

Since I shall soon be the proud new owner of a Townsend Avalon thanks to Nigel (vinylspinner) I now need advice on a tonearm!

I am told it has a rega mount but could probably be altererd to suit somthing else ... ...

I'm not so sure about doing alterations really, but it does occur to me that if I could fit one of the new type mount rega tonearms I could just buy a new one or a origin live one and then I have a few upgrades I could make on the tone arm in the future if I so desired ...

Would it be hard to alter the old rega mount to take a new rega arm or might I be biting off more than I could chew ...
If so, what would be a good old style rega arm mount arm to go for?

Any thoughts?

I am reducing the budget to £150 for a tonearm as me and Hannah really should be saving the cash at the moment

DSJR

29-12-2010, 13:22

hifi_dave

29-12-2010, 13:27

The Rega RB251 will go in the same hole as previous Rega arms but you will need to drill the arm-board for the three fixing bolts or self-tap screws.

The Michell Tecnoarm will drop right in.

Wakefield Turntables

29-12-2010, 13:34

The technoarm is a superb piece of kit. It was my arm of choice on my 1210 until I got round to mounting my SME V :lolsign: I've had a few Linn arm in my time and the venerable SME 3009 and the Technoarm was far superior. The treble was a little high for me on some of my records but I smoothed this out with cheapo OFC copper speaker cable rather than the homemade pure silver cables that I produced. I honestly think you'll be in for a treat :eyebrows:

Rare Bird

29-12-2010, 14:16

Remember Hamish the Rega is not a 9'' arm (pivot to spindle approx 222mm).Sorry mate your stuck with the Rega mount. A Grace 'G707' would fit.

DSJR

29-12-2010, 14:27

I mentioned the Jelco's because the straight one is Rega length (I think) and possibly the 10" 750 version as well..

I'd get the techno-arm I think - I have a G707 tonearm and these days, it's only good for high compliance cartridges and although we fitted Supex 900e's and Asaks to it (after Linn had shaved some of the headshell away), they didn't track properly (we were told this was unimportant) and the bearings were shagged very easily. Fit a ZLM to one though and it's a marriage made in heaven I found ;)

Spectral Morn

29-12-2010, 14:28

I'm suspicious still of companies that take a well engineered and finished inexpensive product, mod it, making it measure worse (extra "life" in the sonics being due to the huge resonances introduced by the modding) in the process, give an iffy finish (told to me by someone who's had a few to sort out/fit cartridges to recently) and then charge a fortune for actually making it worse - there is a recent HFW review I submit as "proof..."

The best sorted of the fairly sensibly priced RB250 clones is the Michell Techno-arm I think and I wouldn't spend any more tbh. I don't know whether the Jelco's might fit too, with minimal modification of the hole. I think the effective length is pretty well similar, give or take a couple of mm, so you never know.

Who are you referring to here ?

If it is Origin Live then HiFi World is full of excellent reviews of their arms. The last HiFi World OL arm review was on the OL Silver arm and it was a fantastic review.

I think if you are going to criticise companies then name them and don't leave people guessing as to who you are having a pop at.

There are a number of companies who take the Rega arm and work on it, Origin Live, Funk Firm, Audio Mods, Michell, Audio Origami, Moth Marketing + others.

The Rega arm is a good arm and I used one for many years (as supplied an RB300) on a Voyd Valdi with great results but the internal cabling is poor and a rewire raises the bar a lot as do other changes.

Dave you have a lot of experience and I respect that but (and I have said this before) your sometimes cryptic postings cause confusion and in the case above...you point the finger at :scratch: Who ? exactly.....

Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo

29-12-2010, 14:35

I think Dave's referring to Rega's own reworking of their own arms Neil.

Spectral Morn

29-12-2010, 14:41

I think Dave's referring to Rega's own reworking of their own arms Neil.

Its not clear, which is why I have asked for clarification from Dave. I don't think he is referring to Rega but those who mod them.

The new Rega 3 point mounting is imho inferior to the original mounting.

Regards D S D L

DSJR

29-12-2010, 14:47

Who are you referring to here ?

If it is Origin Live then HiFi World is full of excellent reviews of their arms. The last HiFi World OL arm review was on the OL Silver arm and it was a fantastic review.

I think if you are going to criticise companies then name them and don't leave people guessing as to who you are having a pop at.

There are a number of companies who take the Rega arm and work on it, Origin Live, Funk Firm, Audio Mods, Michell, Audio Origami, Moth Marketing + others.

The Rega arm is a good arm and I used one for many years (as supplied an RB300) on a Voyd Valdi with great results but the internal cabling is poor and a rewire raises the bar a lot as do other changes.

Dave you have a lot of experience and I respect that but (and I have said this before) your sometimes cryptic postings cause confusion and in the case above...you point the finger at :scratch: Who ? exactly.....

Regards D S D L

If you read the review again Neil, you'll see that they liked the extra "life" injected by the all too easily measurable resonances added by the mods. They even left a caution regarding this as the mods took the arm the other way. In engineering terms, the arm is worse than its donor.

I have seen OL tonearms with bad finish in the past (and rust on one example) as supplied and I really don't feel that ruining an otherwise good design yet selling it at hugely extra cost with introduced problems to make it "sound better" is a good idea for the end user in the long term. I appreciate you may feel differently and may possibly have had totally the opposite experiences for all I know, but I have heard an otherwise stock Rega tonearm sound amazingly "free" and un-fettered and nothing like as dead and bland as it is reputed to be. You just have to get the right mount and possibly deck for it. Rega's current three-screw mounting may well have sorted this for previously un-usable decks in any case. At the time, Roy Gandy was incredibly candid with his ideas and views on what and why the RB series was made as it is - no bodging or guesswork there I promise you and even his chief engineer (the man who dealt with the tooling for their arms and cartridges) added his thoughts on one lengthy and enjoyable chat I had.

I'm not saying the RB arms are perfect, although their so-called lack of life is more to do with the cartridges used I think, but the direct-coupled design puts far more responsibility into the turntable I reckon and it was perhaps the mounting board material that needed tweaking, rather than making the arm-pipe buzz more to inject more "verve" into the prodeedings. Just my views and as I said above, not necessarily shared by yourself Neil, or anyone else by the look of it :)

Rare Bird

29-12-2010, 14:53

Hamish:
My 'Avalon' had 'RB250' with Pickering 'V15/625E' was nice enough.if that helps..

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 15:27

Cheers andre ... Where might I find one of the budget techno arms?
To be honest I was thinking a rb250 would do ... What should I look to pay for one of those?

Don't suppose anyone here has a rega fit arm ... A 250 for eg going spare I could buy do they?

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 15:48

Can you buy a RB250 new?

hifi_dave

29-12-2010, 15:58

Rega stopped manufacturing the RB250 over a year ago and it has been superceded by the RB251 at £138.00

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 16:02

Still seems they can be bought new ...

And I have read on this very forum many times that the old version of the mounting is better ... Is that a fact or speculation based on listening observations?

Andre

You say a modded 250 would be better than a 300
What mods do you recommend?

Alex_UK

29-12-2010, 16:11

How about an earlier Rega - the R200? - I reckon it would look good on the Townshend, may sound a bit better, and if you feel you may ever want to swap cartridges around you have the convenience of a removable headshell. This one (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rega-R200-RB200-tonearm-VERY-GOOD-CONDITION-/280581177863#ht_6801wt_1139) went for seventy quid. You need to make sure the Anti Skating is working as the little toothed belt often fails and no spares are available, but otherwise, a lovely looking arm IMO and lovely to use. That said, if DSJR has recommended one (he uses one himself) then there is probably a very good reason why not with this turntable...?

YNWaN

29-12-2010, 17:32

Spectral Morn

29-12-2010, 17:48

If you read the review again Neil, you'll see that they liked the extra "life" injected by the all too easily measurable resonances added by the mods. They even left a caution regarding this as the mods took the arm the other way. In engineering terms, the arm is worse than its donor.

I have seen OL tonearms with bad finish in the past (and rust on one example) as supplied and I really don't feel that ruining an otherwise good design yet selling it at hugely extra cost with introduced problems to make it "sound better" is a good idea for the end user in the long term. I appreciate you may feel differently and may possibly have had totally the opposite experiences for all I know, but I have heard an otherwise stock Rega tonearm sound amazingly "free" and un-fettered and nothing like as dead and bland as it is reputed to be. You just have to get the right mount and possibly deck for it. Rega's current three-screw mounting may well have sorted this for previously un-usable decks in any case. At the time, Roy Gandy was incredibly candid with his ideas and views on what and why the RB series was made as it is - no bodging or guesswork there I promise you and even his chief engineer (the man who dealt with the tooling for their arms and cartridges) added his thoughts on one lengthy and enjoyable chat I had.

I'm not saying the RB arms are perfect, although their so-called lack of life is more to do with the cartridges used I think, but the direct-coupled design puts far more responsibility into the turntable I reckon and it was perhaps the mounting board material that needed tweaking, rather than making the arm-pipe buzz more to inject more "verve" into the prodeedings. Just my views and as I said above, not necessarily shared by yourself Neil, or anyone else by the look of it :)

Hi Dave

Thank you for the clarification. I was pretty sure you were having a pop (once again) at OL.

No my experiences over the years of OL products don't match yours....such is audio life.

Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn

29-12-2010, 18:00

I have not compared the old and new mounting arrangement for the Rega arms - but my experience suggests that the new one is unlikely to be sonically better. I have to shortly produce a Rega fit armboard for the RubiKon (as one has been requested for review) - unfortunately, I will have to make two slightly different options thanks to the change in mounting arrangement (I am considering only providing the newer fitting arrangement).

It would be possible to give both as I am pretty sure (though I don't have one to hand to look at) that the hole the Rega 251 etc needs to sit into is the same size as the old one just you don't attach it via the large nut anymore but just three tiny holes which you fit threaded rods into the star pattern base and then attach small fiddly nuts. The single large nut was much easier to fit and tighten.

By changing to this new arrangement Rega have made VTA adjustment an issue again and their new spacers are imho worse than the old ones..... The three point fitting also lacks elegance as a design.

Regards D S D L

Rare Bird

29-12-2010, 18:05

You can buy Spacers for the three point system.I don't know the diamensions required or weither you can use the old rega hole for these new arms, if you can i see no probs drilling three small holes around the old mounting hole..You could use a spacer for template i guess.

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 18:23

Sorry Andre, I'm being a numpty ... I'm with you now...

Reading on vinyl engine the 250 is basically a 300 with a different counterweight and end stub ... Is that right?

So if I get a 250 and get the bits you suggest it would be basically the same as a 300 with the bits you suggest just with cheaper initial investment in the arm???

Or are there other differences between the 250 and 300?

I'm just intrigued really ...

Oh and, who would you recomend for an arm re-wire?
If the chap at audio origami does a good job and sells the things second hand that seems a sensible start to get one?

So basically does a audio origami re-wired 250 with various michell mods seem like a sencible course of action?

Sorry if I'm going over things here I'm feeling pretty ropey and my brains running a 1/2 speed...

As a side note Andre, after you pointed out that michell deck I have read quite a lot about their kit ... I really like the look of it, proper technical and sort o industrial looking ... And with my penchant for blue turntables I now would like to one day own this

http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/g/blue_hydraulic3.jpg

Amazing looking thing!!

YNWaN

29-12-2010, 18:46

It would be possible to give both as I am pretty sure (though I don't have one to hand to look at) that the hole the Rega 251 etc needs to sit into is the same size as the old one just you don't attach it via the large nut anymore but just three tiny holes which you fit threaded rods into the star pattern base and then attach small fiddly nuts. The single large nut was much easier to fit and tighten.

By changing to this new arrangement Rega have made VTA adjustment an issue again and their new spacers are imho worse than the old ones..... The three point fitting also lacks elegance as a design.

Regards D S D L

Umm...I'm not sure I understand you (or perhaps vice versa).

I realise the only difference is three holes around the arm pillar. The problem for me is that purchasers of a Rega fit RubiKon are unlikely to be keen on finding there are three unused holes surrounding the pillar of their 'old fit' arm. Likewise, owners of a 'new fit' arm are unlikely to be keen on drilling their own holes (if I included them in the design I could also have them tapped).
___________________________

The RB250 is supposed to have slightly lower spec bearings than the RB300 - also, the RB300 uses a spring to apply tracking force but the RB250 relies on moving the counterweight.

DSJR

29-12-2010, 18:56

Hamish, in the flesh, I believe the Michell Reference decks were gloss black in finish, the colour on your pic may just be lighting..

The RB250 was losely made using much brass, using loc-tite to anchor things together. The early OEM versions had sloppy bearings too, but Rega got that sorted pretty quickly. The RB300 uses tight friction fit stainless steel parts, the bearings being hand assembled as apparently, human feel for degrees of tightness was more appropriate to the finished product. Obviously the counterweight and tracking force adjustment are there as well. My own preference used to be for the small diameter tungsten counterweight rather than the larger diameter stainless steel one which can foul turntable lids. The tungsten one is available in a heavier version to get it as close to the pivot as possible when balancing different cartridges.

One RB250/300 mod I'd loved to have heard is the Avondale one where there was a pre-tensioned bolt running the entire length of the arm pipe, tightly coupling each end and killing the one main resonance in the arm-tube casting.

hifi_dave

29-12-2010, 19:30

http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/g/blue_hydraulic3.jpg

Amazing looking thing!!

I've got one of these in blue. Lovely looking bit of kit but a disappointment sonically.

If you are going to buy an RB251 (or 250) and add all the gizmos and rewire, you might just as well buy the Tecnoarm which is a far better proposition.

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 19:37

There was a blue one on eBay a few months ago!!

Looking at the price they go for andre I can't afford a michell right now ... One day ...

For now I just want something to play my records and with nigels kind donation I'm not sure I can go wrong ...

I did find the ability to disconnect the tonearm cable quite useful ... Where can I get on of those din conectors ...

I'll email matey at audio origami and see what he thinks ... I have had correspondence with him when i was thinking about getting him to do my techie arm and he was very obliging!

Cheers or the help everyone ... Especially andre ... Most informative as usual :)

Before I make further enquies about a rb250 has anyone got any other comments on this?

Rare Bird

29-12-2010, 19:37

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 19:45

I've got one of these in blue. Lovely looking bit of kit but a disappointment sonically.

Bah... I don't want to know that! ;)

If you are going to buy an RB251 (or 250) and add all the gizmos and rewire, you might just as well buy the Tecnoarm which is a far better proposition.

Yeah, but how much is that?

All these little bits and bobs can be got I and when I have a spare £20 or whatever

An internally re-wired 250 from audio origami would be £155 (£5 over budget) ... All the other bits I can add if and when I see fit ... But I imagine that would be a pretty good start that I would be happy with for a while!!

DSJR

29-12-2010, 19:52

I don't know why rega don't just wire the innards with better ones if there really is that much difference. Their better cartridges are perfectly capable of revealing any differences that are there. I mean, they put the Klotz cables on the RB600 and upwards.

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 19:56

Eh.. How hard is it to rewire a rb250??

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 19:59

Another question ... Would a modded 300 be better than a modded 250?

Rare Bird

29-12-2010, 20:00

Eh.. How hard is it to rewire a rb250??

Not really for a novice, besides it's not just a case of out with the old in with the new.

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 20:02

Cool... Sorry to keep going round in circles ... With the questions ... I just want to be absolutely clear on the plan of action :)

hifi_dave

29-12-2010, 20:03

Eh.. How hard is it to rewire a rb250??

I've lost count of the number of Rega arms I have had to return to Rega for repair and occasionally junking, which have been re-wired by customers and companies specialising in this service.

DSJR

29-12-2010, 20:06

Apparently, to do it properly, the arm has to be dismantled, as the internal earthing wire (connected to a signal return in the little hard wired "plug" that fits in the base) can become dislodged. Now, I've never done this myself and the special torque tool that Rega (and their authorised rebuilders like Moth marketing) use on the bearings was beyond my weak wrists to properly use to tension.

Seriously Hamish, if you don't want to ask Rega's advice (I mean, they only make the bloody things :D), then try Mike Harris at Moth Marketing. He's a friendly chap, does the Incognito wiring and was properly trained by Rega in the art of re-building the RB series, keeping the correct jigs for the process.

hifi_dave

29-12-2010, 20:17

Yes Dave but i doubt Hamish would lash out the cost of the Techno in one sweep

Ah you forget about the sound of the deck it's too beautiful a creation... :eyebrows:

You have a 'Prisma' don't you Dave? Gissit ;)

I've got so much stuff in storage that I have forgotten what I do have. However, I do know where the blue Transcriptor is and that is with a Hydraulic/Fluid arm and a black Electronic/SME 3009. Out on show I have the Prisma/SME 3009 and (naturally) John's first double deck.

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 20:21

DSJR

29-12-2010, 20:23

At least to get an idea of what is needed to do the job, even if you don't employ them to do it :) That's all.

Rare Bird

29-12-2010, 20:23

I have the Prisma/SME 3009 and (naturally) John's first double deck.

Dave:
I promise i'll love it, dust it every Sunday :eyebrows:

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 20:24

What about this then?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MOTH-MKII-rega-251-TONEARM-K_W0QQitemZ280581354963QQcategoryZ3283QQvarZQQcmdZ ViewItem

Is that effectively a moth rewired 251?

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 20:25

At least to get an idea of what is needed to do the job, even if you don't employ them to do it :) That's all.

Nah ball to it ... Was just a passing thought really dave... :)

Rare Bird

29-12-2010, 20:26

You could use that but youd have to drill the deck

hifi_dave

29-12-2010, 20:26

Dave:
I promise i'll love it, dust it every Sunday :eyebrows:

When I go to that great demo room in the sky, you can be first on the list.

hifi_dave

29-12-2010, 20:29

What about this then?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MOTH-MKII-rega-251-TONEARM-K_W0QQitemZ280581354963QQcategoryZ3283QQvarZQQcmdZ ViewItem

Is that effectively a moth rewired 251?

That is a standard RB251 but with a Moth badge in place of the 'Rega'.

markf

29-12-2010, 20:29

I think a regular Rega arm will be fine,I don't think you will need to "mod" or re-wire anything,
just take the time to set it all up correctly and be sure to get a moving coil cart.

Spectral Morn

29-12-2010, 20:31

What about this then?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MOTH-MKII-rega-251-TONEARM-K_W0QQitemZ280581354963QQcategoryZ3283QQvarZQQcmdZ ViewItem

Is that effectively a moth rewired 251?

No it looks like it is a Moth 251 standard arm with standard wiring only.

Regards D S D L

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 20:38

I feel I have come full circle here a bit ...
What's the difference between a rega 251 and a audio origami OL1 then? ... Nothing again?

Mark ... Moving coil is out of the question ... I have a ortophon 2m red and can't afford to get anything else ... And apart from anything I was happy with this cart on my thorens (when I could get the fecker working) ... Everything is a major step back from my techie 1210/timestep psu/oc9 iii/jelco 250/etc etc etc ... Just trying to get somthing ok ... Not perfect ... For as little money as possible ... My money is better else where these days and the missis has offered me this as a gift ... I want to get the best possible rega fit arm for her £150 to go with the bits I have/gave been given...

hifi_dave

29-12-2010, 20:45

IMO, some of the mods are totally indistinguishable from standard or, at best, just different but no better. Some are a dog's dinner and sound worse than standard. Rega are not fools.

Hamish, what is your absolute top budget for an arm ?

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 20:55

Hannah has £150 to give me ... If something vastly better was available for a little more ... Maybe £200 I'd stretch but would peter not to

Rare Bird

29-12-2010, 20:59

dont you fancy just buying a Rega RB251' drill the Avalon for the three point mount

keiths

29-12-2010, 21:10

Eh.. How hard is it to rewire a rb250??

I rewired an RB300 some years ago using the Incognito kit. It was pretty easy - until it came to soldering the cartridge tags on. If you left the soldering iron in contact with the joint for more than about 0.5 seconds, the insulation shrunk back at an alarming rate of knots.

IIRC the procedures for the RB300 and RB250 differed slightly with the RB300 being the more straight-forward.

The Vinyl Adventure

29-12-2010, 21:10

For the sake of simplicity andre ... It's becoming a more attractive option ... The thing is... 1, I'm worried about drilling holes... And 2, as with most things with hifi I'd like something a little bit 'one off' or 'individual' I guess that why I get Marco pov so much I can fully empathise with that perspective ...

MCRU

29-12-2010, 22:10

Just had a quick look on e-bay and no RB250's around, plenty of RB251's within budget, the Regas have performed admirably for so many years IMHO it would get you started until funds allow further up-grades.

Rare Bird

29-12-2010, 23:10

The Vinyl Adventure

30-12-2010, 00:33

Liking things hifi that is unique andre ... Somthing that you can take a certain pleasure in owning because it's the only one around etc...

Mr Pig

30-12-2010, 00:52

My tuppence worth: I'd buy a used RB300.

You'll notice that all the people who mod Rega arms recommend the RB250 over the RB300 as they say the bearing arrangement is better. Don't you think it odd that Rega only use that configuration on their cheapest arm? If it was better, don't you think they'd use it for everything?

Used RB300s are plentiful second hand and are usually a safe bet as it's an incredibly robust arm. Despite using exactly the same bearings as a Linn Ittok you can mount a cartridge on them without removing them from the deck. Very hard to kill an RB300. Also lots for sale with the tungsten counterweight so I'd make sure you get one of those.

I've only tried two mods myself but the first is a no-brainer. Remove the paint.

How can I be so sure removing the paint is a good idea? Because it was never part of the design in the first place. Early casting quality left a patchy finish on the arm-tubes. Finishing the bare tubes to a high enough standard to be acceptable on a commercial product was too expensive so they were painted. Over the years the casting quality improved and the quantity of arms made allowed for the selection of the cleanest castings for Rega's top arm. Yip, the same casting is used for the tube on the RB300 and the RB1000, but the RB1000 has no paint! ;0)

I've stripped the paint off with the arm intact and by disassembling it. You'll get better results if you take it apart but leaving it in one piece is easier! The product you want is a paint stripper called Home Strip.

The only other mod I've tried is rewiring. I've tried coper wire, silver wire and settled on a combination of both. Yes, it does work but tread with care as it can alter the tonal balance of the arm. The truth is that the stock wire is not that bad and changing it is not cheap. Definitely take the paint off first.

I've heard a lot of arms but I remain very happy with a stripped and rewired RB300. It might not be the best arm in the world but it is for the money and is a great all rounder that isn't fatally weak in any area.

Spectral Morn

30-12-2010, 01:32

Good post Colin :)

I have only recently become aware of the paint removing mod (during a recent conversation with Marco) and the improvement in sound quality you can get by doing this.

I used an RB300 for years with a Voyd Valdi and a number of carts (MM but mostly MC) and I loved the sound I got with that combination (synergy at work) so I do struggle a tad to understand when people offer severe negativity about the stock arm.

Re wiring is well worth getting done (I would never undertake to rewire an arm myself too fiddly and if you get it wrong.....well you have a dead arm) but I would give it to OL or Mike from Moth Marketing or Audio Origami.

I remember liking the sound of the Townsend Avalon Hamish is thinking of accepting at the time it was out on sale (I worked for a dealer who did Townsend at the time) but we never (as far as I can recall) sold any with out the silicon damping.

Regards D S D L

The Vinyl Adventure

30-12-2010, 02:07

A compeling comment Colin ...
Since you have been the protagonist for the 250 andre - care to comment?

I can't emphasise enough... I want to do this right ...

Stratmangler

30-12-2010, 02:18

The 250 lacks a downforce spring that the 300 has.
There is some paranoia as to the effects of the spring on SQ.
There is also some paranoia about the compression effect on the lower part of bearing race of the 300.

In the 300's favour - the counterstub is metal.
The bearings are allegedly higher toleranced.

Personally I prefer an SME3009/2Imp over an RB 250/300, but that's me.

You pays yer money........

The Vinyl Adventure

30-12-2010, 02:23

Well what bloody use is the recommendation of an sme arm to me ... Eh ... Eh ...
Tell me ... ;) ... :lolsign:

Another point for the 300 then... :)

DSJR

30-12-2010, 09:38

It's simple. An RB250 is easier to take apart and is cheaper, so the modders can tweak to their hearts content and make more money on the resale of the modded arm.

The RB300 series uses special custom pre-set hi-torque tools in its assembly which the modders haven't usually bought. This makes the arm more difficult for them to work with and all kinds of foo has come along as an "explanation" as to why the inferior RB250 is used as a donor - don't challenge me on this, ask Rega themselves, or Hifi dave, who had a long chat with our old pal Paul Darwin, their current UK rep on this very subject..

There certainly is a "thing" about the tracking force spring. I have mixed feelings about it, but if you buy a precision stylus balance at some point, you can safely play to your hearts content and decide which is best for you.

Otherwise, a huge +1 for mr pig's post above :)

MCRU

30-12-2010, 09:46

Next you will be telling us to remove the paint off our SL1210's........:eek:

YNWaN

30-12-2010, 10:00

I thought the main reason that it was the RB250 that got modified was because that is the model that Rega made available to other companies - keeping the RB300 for themselves.

hifi_dave

30-12-2010, 10:26

The Vinyl Adventure

30-12-2010, 10:36

At least to get an idea of what is needed to do the job, even if you don't employ them to do it :) That's all.

Next you will be telling us to remove the paint off our SL1210's........:eek:

.... .... No the answer is to paint them blue!

hifi_dave

30-12-2010, 10:41

Hamish, if you PM me, I might have a solution...:scratch:

Marco

30-12-2010, 10:45

Hi Hamish,

For the budget you've got, I'd also say go with a Rega. The only thing I can think of that would be a bit different (if you can find one for £150) is one of these, which Johnny has refurbished:

http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/ArmWork/AlphasonXenontonearm/Alphason.htm

Or perhaps an Opal or a Delta.....

The Alphasons were SERIOUSLY good tonearms, and vastly underpriced in their day! One of those would definitely outperform a Rega, especially when fettled as above.

As for stripping and polishing Rega arms (and sensibly rewiring them), it's a no-brainer. It significantly improves their performance, as the paint used dampens the arm-tube, further 'deadening' the sound of an already (in stock form) somewhat 'opaque' sounding tonearm.

Quite simply, if one compares, say, an Audio-Origami rewired, stripped and polished RB250 or 300 to the stock Rega items, the difference is night and day, with the modified arm sounding much more open, detailed, and basically less coloured (i.e. more accurate).

I've heard Colin's paint-stripped and rewired RB300 recently, on his LP12, and it sounded very good indeed. The only thing I'd say (as a perfectionist and cack-handed daftee) is if you're going to strip and polish the arm, rather than do it yourself and make an arse of it, *if* you don't really know what you're doing, send it to Johnny, as he has the tools to do the best job, and so it'll come back with a mirror finish and looking like a veritable piece of jewellery (and every bit as nice as an RB1000)! :eek:

Finally, remember that achieving the correct synergy is all-important with a turntable, so if you're going for a Rega, think very carefully about your choice of cartridge and how well it matches the sonic characteristics of the arm and also your phono stage. It's a system you're building, remember, not just a collection of bits.

Good luck! :cool:

Marco.

Marco

30-12-2010, 10:59

You just missed a nice Opal on Ebay, which would've fitted right in with your budget:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Alphason-Opal-tonearm-Fantastic-Linn-Rega-rival-/230561659371

If you're not in a hurry to buy a tonearm, I'd keep looking out for the Alphasons above! :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

30-12-2010, 11:01

Is the mounting compatible with the Rega hole in the TT that Hamish is hoping to get though?

Marco

30-12-2010, 11:03

It has a Linn fitting, Chris, so if Mr Pig's RB300 fits on his LP12, then one would presume the Alphason could be made to fit on his Avalon :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

30-12-2010, 11:09

I thought it was a Linn/AT fitting - I don't think the Avalon has a removable arm-board, which might make it tricky (or messy)?

vinylspinner

30-12-2010, 11:10

Marco

30-12-2010, 11:10

I'm afraid I can't comment, as I have no knowledge of the T/T concerned. If that's the case, then stick with the Rega :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

30-12-2010, 11:11

Ah, Nigel's got the answer!

Mr Pig

30-12-2010, 11:22

I do struggle a tad to understand when people offer severe negativity about the stock arm.

There will always be someone! The relatively few who slate the arm are kinda outnumbered don't you think? Rega arms are the best selling arms in history, not including the AK47, and their fundamental quality is further underscored by the fact that everybody and his dog chose to tweak, mod and want their own name on them. They are one of the best Hi-Fi products in history, perhaps even the best.

Why slate them? Well I guess there will always be those who just don't like the sound, as with any product. Then you've got the snobs, it's a very cheap arm. Then the competing manufacturers of course who must have had a fit when the RB300 came out. If you remember, Linn's best budget offering at that time was the Basik Plus! Suddenly here's an arm that sounds as good as the Ittok at a quarter of the price! Little wonder they spread the idea that the Rega arms did not work on Linn turntables, at least that way somebody would still be using Linn arms! ;0)

if you're going to strip and polish the arm, rather than do it yourself and make an arse of it *if* you don't really know what you're doing, send it to Johnny, as he has the tools to do the best job

Johnny will indeed do a great job. He takes the arm apart and buffs up the arm tube on polishing wheel. Also, it means that he'll set the bearings bang on when he puts it back together again. Clearly if you were going to rewire the arm it would make sense to get both done at the same time.

However, it's easy enough to do it yourself if you want to and a fraction of the cost obviously. You'll not get the same quality of finish but if you can live with that it's not hard. Actually, you could get the same results if you took the tube off but it's far harder to do. I can give instructions to anyone who wants to do it, I took pictures of one of the arms I stripped.

The Vinyl Adventure

30-12-2010, 12:33

Hi,

The Avalon arm mounting hole could be cut to take any arm, or just cut a larger hole and use a mounting plate made out of 4mm ali or perspex and fix that at each corner, this would be very easy and cheap solution, I would be prepared to help Hamish with the final set up once he has made his arm choice.

Nigel

Nigel,
You are a ledgend mate!

The problem is that last night I was looking at 2 tonearms ... The 250 and the 300 rega ... And that was confusing me ... Now I have ... ... Well, it's anyones guess how many tonearms there have ever been ...

I think I should probably just be sensible really and stick with a rega ... And anyway, you have already done enough for me!!

Mr Pig

30-12-2010, 12:39

For the money the Rega arms are a very safe bet. They are robust and neutral sounding. You might find a better arm for the money but it would be something a lot older and perhaps more characterful. Perhaps more problematic too.

The best person to talk to is Johnny (J7) at Audio Origami. I'm not saying his taste in tone arms will necessarily match your own but few people have the in depth knowledge of arms that he has. Whatever arm you might be thinking of, he'll have taken it to bits!

MCRU

30-12-2010, 12:46

MCRU

30-12-2010, 12:48

Well that is 8 pages of arm debating Hamish,hopefully you are a bit wiser, I am where you probably were a while ago, just got my SL1210 with RB300 cardas wired etc, etc and starting the journey......is it on to the cartridge for your new arm next mate?

YNWaN

30-12-2010, 14:35

The only reason that RB250's are mod'd is as above. Rega do supply them to other companies to doctor but the better arms are for their use only. Rega aren't fools and the RB250/251 is not as good as the RB300/301 and above.

I believe that Michell Eng is unique in that they receive the arm in parts, which they then modify and finish. The finished components are then returned to Rega for assembly and test, resulting in a very good arm for the money.

Indeed. If it was my money I would buy the Technoarm from Michell. However, it is even more likely I would just buy an unmodified RB300 with the tungsten stub and counterweight.
_________________

The Alphason HR100s was a lovely arm - but I'm less convinced by the less costly options (it was configured to fit a Linn arm mount).

hifi_dave

30-12-2010, 14:53

The cheaper Alphason was really not worth writing home about. It was a typical, picked from a catalogue, oriental manufactured arm that sank without a ripple...:doh:

The Vinyl Adventure

30-12-2010, 15:22

I'm gonna get a rb300

Anyone got one spare they would like to flog to me :)

hifi_dave

30-12-2010, 16:28

I refer you to post no. 65

DSJR

30-12-2010, 16:53

Marco, just a quickie sir, but the opaque sound from a Rega arm is as much to do with synergistic matching as you say. On a Spacedeck (ok, THAT turntable again..), the RB300 sounds unfettered and free as a bird to my ears and even the lean-toned (to some) AT moving coils love this combination I found. I would still disagree with your opinions on the OL mods though, as how can adding undesirable high-Q resonances in the middle of the midband make for a more neutral product, especially when these resonances artificially add "life?" (Just get a bloody London Decca or an OC9 instead :lol:) That's my lot on the OL subject, but thereagain, I love the big SME's which some still find too constricted, so maybe there's a tie-up in opinion here?

The Alphason HR100S wasn't hugely well finished compared to its Japanese made competition and this counted against it a little in Linn dealerships at the time and a wonderful review in 'Choice did little to pursuade the Ittok sheep (of which I was one) that it was a true classic and worthy of the highest praise, sadly. I heard one a few years ago, fitted with 'podded Decca Export (silver) which may have been re-tipped. This was on a Gyrodeck and sounded absolutely wonderful to me with the jazz discs played, if a bit raw and assertive to others I suspect.

By the way, Linn tonearms and all that fit the Linn style cutout are around 1/2" shorter than any that fit the Rega/Grace hole. This is where I was wondering (without checking) if the Jelco 750 nine inch version is more a Linn length and the ten inch version more like the Rega one?

Hamish, great luck to you which ever you end up with.

Alex_UK

30-12-2010, 20:25

I'm gonna get a rb300

Anyone got one spare they would like to flog to me :)

No, I haven't - but my only take on the matter is I (personally) wouldn't want to "butcher" a lovely looking turntable like the Townshend by having to drill three holes in it for the new style Rega fitting, so I reckon you've made the right choice out of the more modern Rega arms (I'd still rather have an R200 but that's probably just me! ;))

Good luck with it Hamish - and by the way, I'd make sure it is on a stand at least four foot of the ground to make sure it's future-proof! ;)

DSJR

30-12-2010, 20:45

:lol:

Mike_New

30-12-2010, 23:39

Hamish,
I have a OL moded Rega 250 It's marked on the box as an OL1.
It has all options. I have posted it in the "for Sale'' area.

The Vinyl Adventure

31-12-2010, 00:02

Hi mike ...
According to the currency converter thats about £100 over my budget unfortunately ... Cheers for the pointer though buddy ... :)

Marco

31-12-2010, 00:43

Hi Dave,

Marco, just a quickie sir, but the opaque sound from a Rega arm is as much to do with synergistic matching as you say. On a Spacedeck (ok, THAT turntable again..), the RB300 sounds unfettered and free as a bird to my ears and even the lean-toned (to some) AT moving coils love this combination I found. I would still disagree with your opinions on the OL mods though...

I never made any comment on the OL mods - you're getting me mixed up with Neil ;)

Synergistic matching is of course important, but the RB250 and 300 are definitely rather opaque sounding compared to how they perform with their paint removed, and then when rewired with Cardas cable. I know, as I've heard them both 'before' and 'after' such treatment on the same deck.

Have you carried out an A/B comparison like that between a stock RB300 and a stripped and polished (rewired) one? If not, mate, you wouldn't know.

I can well imagine a stock RB250 or 300 suiting AT moving coils, as the rather 'damped' sound of the former would ameliorate the treble excesses of the latter, thereby ensuring synergy :)

As with everything else, of course, it boils down to personal opinion. I'm afraid I don't rate stock RB250s or 300s at all. The only ones I'd entertain using are those fettled by Audio Origami, quite simply because Johnny makes 'em sing like no-one else I know! :cool:

Marco.

Bazil

31-01-2011, 12:47

I see at Audio Origami there is an option to Gold or Chrome plate a RB250.
How would these differ in SQ from a stripped and polished arm?

Mr Pig

31-01-2011, 16:55

there is an option to Gold or Chrome plate. How would these differ in SQ from a stripped and polished arm?

I don't know. I'm sure Johnnie has told me before but I can't remember. I'll ask him as I was going to phone him tonight anyway. I have a vague memory of it being purely cosmetic and not helping the sound at all, which might be why I didn't want it, but I'll ask.

I'm afraid I don't rate stock RB250s or 300s at all.

Na, still a great arm. Flawed but still untouchable for the money.

Marco

31-01-2011, 20:02

Hi Baz,

Unless you just want to 'bling-ify' the arm, gold or chrome plating it is a no-no. All you're doing is damping the arm tube and altering its resonant characteristics for the worse!

Therefore, not recommended :)

Marco.

Gerry

31-01-2011, 20:11

Unless you just want to 'bling-ify' the arm, gold or chrome plating it is a no-no. All you're doing is damping the arm tube and altering its resonant characteristics for the worse!
Therefore, not recommended :)
Marco.

Marco have you compared; standard; against stripped; against gold plated; against chrome plated?

Ikeda chrome plates his arms for a reason, I'm not sure it's to "bling-ify".

Marco

31-01-2011, 20:22

Hi Gerry,

Perhaps Ikeda arms suit such modifications. Every arm's resonance behaviour is different.

The last thing you want to do to a Rega arm is dampen it more by adding further layers of metal. That's why stripping the paint off of it and polishing it works so well! ;)

I think you'll find that Johnnie agrees :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure

31-01-2011, 20:24

I quite like the look of the chrome ...
Does he do 301's
Id bet a convo with him would clear it up ...

Marco

31-01-2011, 20:29

Sure, Hamish - he'll tell you the same thing I have, as I've had the conversation with him before ;)

It's about looks, rather than achieving the ultimate in sound quality. For some people, the former is more important, or having something 'bespoke'.

And anyway, why would you want to chrome plate the arm when stripping and polishing it (the way Johnnie does) results in a shiny silver finish, which looks very much like chrome? :scratch:

Have you seen what one of his stripped and polished RB250 or 300s looks like, dude? It's as silver and shiny as a very silver and shiny thing!!

Gold, I can understand, if you like bling. Personally, I think it's hideous, rather like the limited edition 'gold' Techie!

Marco.

Bazil

31-01-2011, 20:40

Cheers Marco, although I wonder why he does it if it makes it worse.
Then again if people want shiny gold and want to pay for it.

Marco

31-01-2011, 20:44

No worries, Baz. He does it pure and simply because some people think it makes the arm look 'sexy', which is fair enough, and some of his customers like the effect.

However, the modification is not designed in any way to improve the arm's sonic performance, although it doesn't totally ruin it either :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure

31-01-2011, 22:14

Does he do 301's
I'm not likely to be doing anything to it anyway ... Just interested ...
Spode I could just ask him ... Don't really like wasting peoples time ..

Marco

31-01-2011, 22:24

Hi Hamish,

Johnnie's a genuine enthusiast, who just happens to be running a business, so call him or email him. He loves talking about hi-fi and fixing/modifying things, so you won't be wasting his time.

Just mention that you were speaking to me :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure

31-01-2011, 22:37

The gold is a step too far ...
I've emailed him before when i was thinking about tweaking the techie tone arm
He was very helpful to be fair ...

Mr Pig

31-01-2011, 23:12

I'm just off the phone to Johnnie so I'll tell you what he said before I forget!

In his opinion the chroming does make the arm sound a little bit better. It's primarily done for cosmetic reasons but he reckons there is a slight performance improvident and he explained why.

The chroming makes the arm more brittle and alters the resonant frequency of it. If you tap the bare arm-tube it rings far more than the chromed one does. The alloy the arm is made of is quite soft and the chrome is very hard. As the tube is chromed on the inside as well as on the outside it creates a laminate that's more resistant to standing waves, as you would expect.

The chrome plating is also very thick which contributes to its structural effect. The bare surface of the tube is not very flat or smooth and the thick chrome is buffed down until it is very flat and smooth. The result is that the chrome layer varies in thickness across the tube, which again contributes to the resistance to standing waves.

This extra material on the arm also ups the mass, which Johnnie thinks is probably a good thing for the Rega too.

I have stripped and polished two Rega arms and while it does make the arm sound better it is worth pointing out that, while is is possible to get a good finish that way, it will not stay good. Over time the arm oxidises and starts to look duller. Not disastrously so but it ain't chrome!

Does he do 301's

You mean the turntable? I don't know if he can do objects that big, you'd have to ask him. I've seen his chroming vats and I think it might be a bit tight.

Most people who do chroming commercially will do anything. Your best bet is alloy wheel refurbishers, motorbike frame builders and the like. Anyone who has to chrome stuff. Round where I live you'd typically be looking at around £50 to chrome one large item, maybe a bit more.

Marco

31-01-2011, 23:23

Hi Colin,

I'm just off the phone to Johnnie so I'll tell you what he said before I forget!

In his opinion the chroming does make the arm sound a little bit better. It's primarily done for cosmetic reasons but he reckons there is a slight performance improvident and he explained why.

The chroming makes the arm more brittle and alters the resonant frequency of it. If you tap the bare arm-tube it rings far more than the chromed one does. The alloy the arm is made of is quite soft and the chrome is very hard. As the tube is chromed on the inside as well as on the outside it creates a laminate that's more resistant to standing waves, as you would expect.

The chrome plating is also very thick which contributes to its structural effect. The bare surface of the tube is not very flat or smooth and the thick chrome is buffed down until it is very flat and smooth. The result is that the chrome layer varies in thickness across the tube, which again contributes to the resistance to standing waves.

This extra material on the arm also ups the mass, which Johnnie thinks is probably a good thing for the Rega too.

Fair enough, I can go with that. Through experience of doing it on many occasions, Johnnie should know! :)

I wonder what the comparison would be in terms of simply foam filling a stripped and polished arm to achieve a similar effect?

As for added mass being of benefit, yup, but that would largely depend on what cartridge you intended to use - some wouldn't like it at all. Remember that many hi-end tonearm manufacturers go out of their way to minimise mass, where possible, and for good reasons ;)

I have stripped and polished two Rega arms and while it does make the arm sound better it is worth pointing out that, while is is possible to get a good finish that way, it will not stay good. Over time the arm oxidises and starts to look duller. Not disastrously so but it ain't chrome!

Yes, perhaps if you've done a DIY bodge, like you have, (only kidding, lol!), but doesn't Johnnie put a coating on his arms to prevent such oxidisation from happening?

His stripped and polished Regas are polished to an immaculate mirror finish, and sure as hell look as shiny as chrome! :cool:

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure

01-02-2011, 09:43

I meant rega rb301's
Interesting stuff!
Saved me an email or 2 cheers ...
Well one day, I might revisit thia idea ...
I quite like the idea of tweaking it at some point ... But right at the moment I prefer the idea that it actually sounds more than fine straight out the box ... And has a waranty :)
It funny actually, maybe my attitude to hifi has changed, I'm not sure, but I'm more content with this tt than I was with my techie ...
I think the techie feeds the upgradeitis to much for me ... To many people with dynavector arms, the latest greatest psu, cartridges costing equal to the national deficit etc ... I was never inclined to spend that much, but there's far to much stuff on this forum that makes you go "well, what if I had that... I wonder what I'm missing" ... Nah, I'm happier now you know ... Upgrades are concisered then benched ... I now have money in my savings account :)
Also now I own a very good phonostage the new tt is pretty rocking anyhow and if anything is easier to listen to than the techie .... Happy days...
So yeah, no hurry to upgrade, now I'm an upgrade window shopper :)

Bazil

01-02-2011, 11:25

Thanks for that Colin, interesting about the polished arm oxidizing.
As you say Marco a coating may be applied, probably lacquer but then isn't that painting it again.
Chrome finish sounds the ideal way to go.

Marco

01-02-2011, 11:51

Hi Barry,

If Johnnie does apply a coating of some sort to prevent oxidisation (I'm not entirely sure that he does), it'll be thin, and something that doesn't dampen the arm tube to any noticeable extent, unlike paint.

If you think the chrome finish is the ideal way to go, that's cool.

However, if I had a Rega tonearm (indeed I did this once with an RB700), I'd simply have it stripped, polished and foam filled, by Johnnie, and know from experience that the results would be excellent, both physically and sonically.

The goal, in essence, is to replicate the cosmetic finish (and, to an extent, the sonic signature) of the RB1000, and as far as I know, there ain't no chrome plating used on that! ;)

Indeed this fact is confirmed on Rega's website:

The RB1000 carries more technological changes over previous Rega tonearms than any other Rega tonearm produced during the last twenty years! Key areas of improvement can be found in the bearing assemblies, wiring and materials used. We have worked to redistribute and reduce mass in areas of the tonearm where mass is critical to performance. The easiest place to see these changes in evidence would be the polished aluminium arm tube. It has no coatings of any type.

So why go completely against the manufacturer's design goals and add significantly more mass by chrome plating the arm?

Anyway, each to his or her own :)

Marco.

Bazil

01-02-2011, 12:23

"Chrome finish sounds the ideal way to go" but given the cost and what you (Marco) have just said its strip and polish for me:)

satanfriendly

01-02-2011, 17:01

I am sure I have said this before Hamish, but if I was you I'd spend my money on getting the silicon trough and outrigger for the Avalon. It woud be money wiser spent than upgrading a Rega. plus it is how the deck was designed to operate. It will be in a different leagure altogether.

I am sure if could get hold of Max at Townshend he'd be more than willing to help you out.

The Vinyl Adventure

01-02-2011, 17:03

Rare Bird

01-02-2011, 17:44

cheers Chris

yep i think that would be the next step ... although i have no idea how hannah will react to a trough of slop ... suck it and see I supose ... she probably wouldnt notice anyway... :)

i guess i can contact this max at avalon quite easily?

[edit] i filled in the contact form on their website asking the question

Hamish don't worry about the trough of Silicone, it's more like the consistency of treacle anyway so never splashes around, besides the paddle never leaves the trough.just parks up at the end when changing records. You must stress the Trough, Outrigger/paddle your wanting is for the 'Avalon'. I once fited an Avalon trough to a Rega 'Planar 3' :lolsign:

vinylspinner

01-02-2011, 18:55

Hi Hamish,

The trough will make a big difference, although I never had one fitted on the Avalon, I think that it it was an upgrade at the time.

I do use the trough on both of my Townshend Rock II t/tables, the difference in sound without it is quite stark and less focussed, it would be great if someone had one you try out before buying a new one, the cost could be very high, the outrigger is £50 on its own, perhaps Max might have an old one lying about in the store room, the size for the Avalon was discontinued a long way back (they are not as tall as the Rock version).

I will send you the info sheet on the bearing refurb at some stage, it is very simple to polish and reset these bearings, I have done both of the Rock IIs in the past, plus it only costs a couple of quid.

regards

Nigel

Keep on spinning:)

Mr Pig

01-02-2011, 19:56

I wonder what the comparison would be in terms of simply foam filling a stripped and polished arm to achieve a similar effect?

Johnnie doesn't foam fill them. What he does is insert a couple of thin foam disks at strategic points in the arm-tube to target a specific resonance.

As for added mass being of benefit, yup, but that would largely depend on what cartridge you intended to use

I would think so. He insisted the DL103 would sound better with more mass and gave me a tiny brass weight for the headshell. I did try it but I couldn't hear any real benefit.

doesn't Johnnie put a coating on his arms to prevent such oxidisation from happening?

No but you're right, his polished arms sure are shiny. Much better than you could do by hand, he hits them with a buffing wheel. I don't care much about how shiny my arm is but if you want a professional looking job Johnnie's your man.

Mr Pig

01-02-2011, 20:03

Chrome finish sounds the ideal way to go.

It does look great, but to be honest the polished tube looks good too. It's not like it turns black or anything, it just doesn't stay as shiny as it is at first.

I would go for it. Once you've heard the RB300 without the pant you'd not go back. If you're not too fussed about the finish you can do it yourself quite easily, I can explain how.

The Vinyl Adventure

01-02-2011, 20:12

Hamish don't worry about the trough of Silicone, it's more like the consistency of treacle anyway so never splashes around, besides the paddle never leaves the trough.just parks up at the end when changing records. You must stress the Trough, Outrigger/paddle your wanting is for the 'Avalon'. I once fited an Avalon trough to a Rega 'Planar 3' :lolsign:

Ha, good effort!
Pointers noted ... I'm not to worried, the lid of the tt will protect it too!

Hi Hamish,

The trough will make a big difference, although I never had one fitted on the Avalon, I think that it it was an upgrade at the time.

I do use the trough on both of my Townshend Rock II t/tables, the difference in sound without it is quite stark and less focussed, it would be great if someone had one you try out before buying a new one, the cost could be very high, the outrigger is £50 on its own, perhaps Max might have an old one lying about in the store room, the size for the Avalon was discontinued a long way back (they are not as tall as the Rock version).

I will send you the info sheet on the bearing refurb at some stage, it is very simple to polish and reset these bearings, I have done both of the Rock IIs in the past, plus it only costs a couple of quid.

regards

Nigel

Keep on spinning

Cheers buddy! I'm still really impressed with it!!
Would be good to know how to maintain it! I can't see me getting a new tt for a long time now!!
This though does sound like the next logical upgrade though doesn't it :)
I'll let you know what I hear back from Townshend ...

'Ear look at this ...
iPhone taken and edited photo of rb301 on Avalon with shure m75 :)

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/289f42c3.jpg

flapland

01-02-2011, 20:14

You could get the armtube bead-blasted to give it a nice matt finish. I have Audiomods arm done with this finish and it looks great and I also understand slightly hardens the surface. I think its not that hard to find someone to do it

Mr Pig

01-02-2011, 20:27

I have Audiomods arm done with this finish and it looks great

I really liked the look of that arm and thought about getting one but the bearing arrangement didn't make sense to me. I asked the guy who makes them about it but it was no clearer so I gave it a miss.

Origin Live also shot-blast the tube and yes, it does exactly as you say.

flapland

02-02-2011, 20:19

I really liked the look of that arm and thought about getting one but the bearing arrangement didn't make sense to me. I asked the guy who makes them about it but it was no clearer so I gave it a miss.

Origin Live also shot-blast the tube and yes, it does exactly as you say.

Interested to hear what about the bearing arrangement you think doesn't make sense as other opinions are what this is all about. I don't claim any expertise in this area but know the arm performs very well for me. This is my first super-arm though so haven't had exposure to the Ittok's SME V, Graham etc of this world.

Paul

Mr Pig

02-02-2011, 20:57

On the Audiomods arm there is no mechanism for side-loading the bearings, neither the vertical or horizontal ones. How they will load up when you assemble the arm will be a hit or a miss.

If you look at any other arm that uses races, Ittok, RB300 or whatever, you'll find either side-loading adjustment available or that the arm has been machined to include it. The Audiomods arm is the first one I've seen that has none at all.

I spoke to Johnnie at Audio Origami about it and he said it's the only arm he won't work on. If you contact him yourself he'll give you a bit more insight on it.

That said, if you happen to get the bearings clamped up in the right place there is no reason why they won't work right. If your arm sounds good I'd guess it is good. Certainly a cool looking arm and a lot of features are really clever.

Bazil

05-02-2011, 15:59

Why do some modders drill holes or slot the arms, and has it got to be done in a particular place?

Mr Pig

05-02-2011, 18:36

Why do some modders drill holes or slot the arms

It's to break up standing waves in the arm tube, to stop it ringing. It also reduces the mass of he arm, which might be good depending on the cartridge you want to use.

I don't know about the position of the holes. I've seen different sized holes all over the arm and a row of holes along the underside. I have no idea what is best, or even if they work at all.

fiddlemaker

24-05-2011, 21:23

Apologies for coming to this topic late. Only recently registered.
The rega 250 arm tube audibly rings at a note close to A sharp, at a frequency of around 850Hz. But there are also other strong, higher frequency modes. There is a particularly strong mode at just over 6kHz. The Audiomods spiral hole drilling process significantly attenuates this mode, but there only a appears to be a relatively small effect on the ~850Hz peak. I took measurements whilst building an Audiomods kit, with the impact response equipment I use for acoustic measurements on violins.

Marco

24-05-2011, 21:31

Hi John,

Welcome to AoS :)

Very interesting...

However, before you go any further, could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community, by telling us what system you've got and what music you like, as this is required of all new members joining our community.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Les Paul '67

26-05-2011, 13:05

I have an Origin Live arm, I'm not sure which model as it was a "special deal" from OL. Apparently the arm lifting spur broke off when it was being polished and was replaced with a fine wire one, apart from that it has all the mods like new rear assembly, slots in the tube, polished tube, cardas cables etc etc. I think I paid about £250 for it and what a bargain. the lifting spur is something that I would have wanted removed anyway as the original Rega one does tend to make the sound a little muddy by all accounts. I can say that on my LP12 it sounds superb, the difference between that and my LVV is like chalk and cheese. It is more detailed, less colouration, more attack and lifts every scrap of detail from the vinyl........ I have heard Rega arms on LP12's before and it is not a route I would go down due to the difficulty in dressing the cable etc but this OL arm is the most revealing change I have ever made and with the change in cables it sits in position nicely and the cable dressing was pretty simple. I'll add a low res piccy for now and try to add an Hi res one later....
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd296/Hawklord9/IMG_0035.jpg

I know they are not everyones cup of tea but this arm sure works for me & my ears!!