View Full Version : Turntable for £250??
The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2010, 17:56
Right then ... I'm stumped
I want a turntable again ... I'm having a bit of trouble getting the one I have working ...
Hannah has said she will buy me one for my birthday and is willing to spend £250
I did have ideas of making/having something made ... But budget is tight and i feel like other things are probably more important to be concentrating on at the moment :)...
...This is the last bit of hifi I will likely be having for a good while with Hannah being preggers so I want to get it right ...
Somthing easy to set up and maintain ...
I have a ortophon 2m red that I will be using, so working with that would be good really ...
Ideas anyone?
Rare Bird
28-12-2010, 18:08
I've always liked the J.A Michell 'Focus One'.'Focus 'S' might be a bit trickier.. Getting a good lid withought glued dried joints is not easy..You can whip off those spring feet & fit Gyro Conicals.If your not bothered about a lid & can pick one up cheap, Michell do a unilid you just sit on the platter. The belt fits around the full diameter of the platter hence get upto speed as quick as Direct Drives
The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2010, 18:38
That's a sexy looking bit of kit... Gloss black too so the missis likes it...
Ammonite Audio
28-12-2010, 18:39
You could always try something like a Lenco L75, perhaps in one of Russ Collinson's Layers of Beauty plinths? With a budget but suitable tonearm, it could fit within your budget.
chris@panteg
28-12-2010, 18:50
Hi Hamish
You don't fancy dabbling with DD again then ? how about the Heybrook TT2 .
The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2010, 19:26
i dont really mind chris ... although i dont reall want a techie ... i put to much effort into it to start again from scratch!
Hamish if you put the Lenco in a decent plinth its performance might suprise you. It does not have the bass of the 401 but does other things better. For £250 you could get one sounding quite good
The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2010, 19:33
i had thought about a l75 actually after seeing davids on his web site looking rather pretty...
The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2010, 19:34
... actully thats a 78 is it ... whats the difference??
Rare Bird
28-12-2010, 19:37
Do really want the hassle & expence of one of those old jobbies i ask? ;)
The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2010, 19:39
no, not really ..
so the focus would be less fuss would it?
if anyone here has anything they would sell me id rather line the pockets of one of you chaps than someone on ebay ... just chucking that out there...
Beechwoods
28-12-2010, 19:39
You'd have to be lucky to put together a fully finished Lenco for £250 I think. The base units are coming in at around £100-120 these days. Assuming you replace the stock arm, you could do it if you made your own plinth, or could get the plinth done by a friend, or for free; professional plinth you'll blow your budget. Russ Collinson's plinth's start at £120 I think for a Lenco... but that's your budget gone, and you've still not sorted the arm!
For a Lenco to work you either need a free plinth or a free arm :)
Personally I find the original arm is OK, but it needs to be in good condition, v-blocks replaced etc. I suspect that Hamish will be more discerning as far as arms are concerned though.
... actully thats a 78 is it ... whats the difference??
The 78 has an auto-return arm, IIRC.
chris@panteg
28-12-2010, 19:41
A Lenco GL75 motor unit is a thing of beauty , i had one a while back but sold it on ! one thing about it i would say though is there was quite a bit of play in the bearing , so it might end up costing more than £250 ! then there is the arm to think about ?
If £250 is your max budget , then i would be inclined to suggest the new Rega budget deck which is £225 i think , its brand new ! good to go and needs no fettling and farting about , Hifi Dave sells them doesn't he ? .
The Lenco like the 1210 is all about potential Its a very capable player and wonder how Jean top of the range restored Lenco would fare against a 1210 modified to the max I not heard either maxed to full potential
You just about get away with £250 if you DIY the plinth
As Chris points out might be issues with the bearing or idlier wheel
vinylspinner
28-12-2010, 20:00
Hi Hamish,
I have a Townshend Avalon turntable going spare, just needs a rega arm fitted to get her going, nice little deck, plenty of bass, foc if you want to collect her from wiltshire.
Also have a GL75 going, open to offers on this one.
regards
Nigel
The Grand Wazoo
28-12-2010, 20:03
Now there's an offer, Hamish, grab the Avalon & give Nigel a great big kiss!
Get yerself a half decent arm & you're away.
Sorry Hamish the previous offer may suit you better, did not spot your post about my GL78.
I ended up with 5 x Lencos and finished the first one a month ago, if you want one to do one up I have a couple spare, new plinth will cost you £120 as stated and it's easy to cut out the arm base and fiddle away, I personally think the Lenco can be up-graded to take on any TT around the £1000 mark and above so it saves you having to buy a cheapo TT and be dis-appointed when at least a Lenco will take almost any arm and cart so can be up-graded as and when funds are available instead of swapping the entire TT..
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/DSC01141.jpg
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/lencoproject.jpg
The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2010, 20:21
Hi Hamish,
I have a Townshend Avalon turntable going spare, just needs a rega arm fitted to get her going, nice little deck, plenty of bass, foc if you want to collect her from wiltshire.
Also have a GL75 going, open to offers on this one.
regards
Nigel
Hi Nigel,
That's extremely kind of you!
Could I see what it looks like ... I can't find a photo on google ... It will have to pass the missis test you see :)
I guess this could work out well in as much as I could spend the missis gift money on an arm ...
Obviously Chris likes the Townsend ... I have never heard of the Townsend ... Can you fill me in a bit more on what it is etc...
Edit ... Just to add incase my gratitude seemed understated... thank you very much for the offer!!
The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2010, 20:22
I do like the idea of a lenco... But slightly fear the upgrade path...
vinylspinner
28-12-2010, 20:30
Hi Hamish,
This is a picture from a website, my Avalon has a black acrylic type platter and just a drilled hole for the rega arm, other arms could be fitted quite easily, I will try to get some photos for you, just need to borrow a decent camera.
Nigel
chris@panteg
28-12-2010, 20:35
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/Avalon.jpg?t=1293568422
vinylspinner
28-12-2010, 20:42
Thanks Chris,
That is the same model , brushed ali surround trim, black platter, mine never had the damping trough fitted though.
Nigel
chris@panteg
28-12-2010, 20:49
Trough was an optional extra as i recall , a very nice deck though ! i heard one back in about 1990 .
Hamish i would urge you to take up this very kind offer ! get an RB251 and bob's your uncle .:)
The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2010, 20:51
... It's gloss black is it? ... Blimey ... I think we have a winner!
Don't stress about photos buddy ...
This really is very good of you!
I think I'll relatively blindly take you up on the offer if that's ok?
Just gotta work out how to get to you and back now :)
vinylspinner
28-12-2010, 20:59
Hi Hamish,
Glad I could help, I will get it out of the garage and give it a clean and polish up, may need a new belt but I will let you know on that one.
I work in Swindon during the week, that may be closer for you, pm me with a contact number and we will sort something out.
regards
Nigel
The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2010, 21:03
Do you know sight 2 sound in swindon?
I work a day a week in the Worcester one ... They would bring it up to me no probs
I'll send you my number and we can have a bit of a chat tomo...
Thanks again!!!!
To anyone looking for a Goldring-Lenco - IMO, the LAST thing you should ever do is junk the mis-understood but otherwise capable (when restored) tonearm and fit a grotty old jelco-made castoff like an LVX to it - not even the superior Basik Plus either.... :(
The L75 arm (and the L78 variant) offers usefully high effective mass, low bearing friction, replacable V bearings for the knife-edges (some really good ones can be got these days) and even the original exit wires (from shell to terminal block underneath the platter) are ok for high output mc's if a little resistive now for mm types. I suspect the socket can be removed as it can on the TP16 Thorens arm and the real problems - the exit leads to amp - can be easily replaced. The auto-stop on the GL78 is fairly gentle and perfectly fine for all but 1g trackers, which this arm wasn't ever designed to be used with. Suitable cartridges? Any of the DJ cartridges and I suspect the ortofons tracking at 1,5 to 1.75g would be fine. even the supplied mats work beautifully with these decks, the GL78 mat especially.
Apologies, I know the GL75 and 78 well and love them dearly. Wonderful old machines and apparently better bearings and plinths can now be got for them - lovely!
Spectral Morn
28-12-2010, 21:16
PM sent in regards to an arm......
Regards D S D L
Rare Bird
28-12-2010, 22:02
Ah right FOC puts an all new perspective on things ;)
Makes the case very strong for a Rega RP1 with turbo kit....... lasts for ever, cheap service, parts and a long life guaranteed :)
Techno Commander
29-12-2010, 01:05
That is a jolly decent turntable for the money. :)
Looks as if you're onto a bit of a winner there Hamish, I'm really jealous :stalks:
Does anyone have a Michell Gyro they don't need anymore? :lol:
I'm wondering if "Nigel" is really who he says he is - don't wear a red suit and have a long white beard do you Nigel? ;) Lucky boy Hamish, that's a very nice looking turntable. Nigel, you don't by any chance have a Lamborghini Miura gathering dust in that garage that you don't want any more do you? :lol:
To anyone looking for a Goldring-Lenco - IMO, the LAST thing you should ever do is junk the mis-understood but otherwise capable (when restored) tonearm and fit a grotty old jelco-made castoff like an LVX to it - not even the superior Basik Plus either.... :(
The L75 arm (and the L78 variant) offers usefully high effective mass, low bearing friction, replacable V bearings for the knife-edges (some really good ones can be got these days) and even the original exit wires (from shell to terminal block underneath the platter) are ok for high output mc's if a little resistive now for mm types. I suspect the socket can be removed as it can on the TP16 Thorens arm and the real problems - the exit leads to amp - can be easily replaced. The auto-stop on the GL78 is fairly gentle and perfectly fine for all but 1g trackers, which this arm wasn't ever designed to be used with. Suitable cartridges? Any of the DJ cartridges and I suspect the ortofons tracking at 1,5 to 1.75g would be fine. even the supplied mats work beautifully with these decks, the GL78 mat especially.
Apologies, I know the GL75 and 78 well and love them dearly. Wonderful old machines and apparently better bearings and plinths can now be got for them - lovely!
Thanks for the advice, the LVX arm sounds good to me? Have you heard a GL78 with this arm on?
The Vinyl Adventure
29-12-2010, 12:55
Just had a chat with Santa .. Erm ... Nigel ... And we have aranged it to be delivered to me via the sight 2 sound network :)
Very happy I am too ... Just gotta sort out an arm now ...
Rare Bird
29-12-2010, 13:02
Looks as if you're onto a bit of a winner there Hamish, I'm really jealous :stalks:
Does anyone have a Michell Gyro they don't need anymore? :lol:
I always prefered the 'Mycro' but loved the 'Syncro Mk.2' looks
[B]
Thanks for the advice, the LVX arm sounds good to me? Have you heard a GL78 with this arm on?
I know the LVX and basik Plus well, having set up countless samples in my times as a Linn dealer. The headshell socket joint is weak, the bearings are variable, the counterweight decoupling rubber will have squidged too by now - same with Basik Plus - and I don't think Linn have spares any more, let alone any interest in servicing these - if the counterweight spins quite freely then it's fugged.. The best you can do now the L78 arm is history is to upgrade the arm to an Ittok. The L78 arm-rest hole can be reamed out to fit the ittok arm rest too. Not sure if a 9" Jelco 750 could fit the hole made for the Linn arm, but that would be a great idea if it could be done.
Now the L78 arm. Massy yes, but the V blocks are readily available around and about still, re-wiring must be possible, the auto-stop function is really useful and didn't get in the way and the springy counterweight decoupling can be bypassed with cotton thread wound in the join if you think it makes an improvement, as some Lenco lovers do. Fitted with a modern mid priced cartridge tracking at 1.5 g minimum I "know" it would sound better than any surviving LVX out there - so there :ner: ;)
Hey Dave, my LVX+ doesn't suffer from any of the symptoms you describe, although you are right, they can and do of course. I guess I'm just a lucky fella eh? :lol:
The squidgy rubber counterweight decoupler is quite an easy fix if you have a steady hand. a thin cycle innertube and a very sharp craft knife...
You have a BASIK PLUS, as written on the bearing top. These were much better, didn't suffer the loose headshell syndrome as the LVX did and should be fine with most middle priced cartridges. I was really responding to the Lenco picture, where a great deck as-is was, IMO downgraded with an LVX.
The Basik Plus can easily be fettled by Johnnie at Audio Origami as it can be dismantled and of course his re-wires are legendary. Once you've sorted the Thorens, have a think about the cabling - his Van Damme based exit cable sounds delightful IMO as does the silly-money Linn T-Cable, which we once fitted to a chap's Axis, as he couldn't stretch to a full deck upgrade.
I was having a bit of fun with you Dave, sowy... :respect:
S'alright :lol:
As I say repeatedly now, please don't take me too seriously. I try not to wind people up, but in some circumstances, if it makes them think carefully about what they're going to do, rather than just "follow the pack" on certain things, then a touch of bullishness doesn't always go amiss. in other words, if you can say you modified or bought something because it was a genuine improvement, or a carefully researched one on your account, then that's great. I've seen too many LP12's bought blind in the past because such-&-such magazines told them to, or be cast out as unclean - you think I'm joking?? :lol:
S'alright :lol:
As I say repeatedly now, please don't take me too seriously. I try not to wind people up, but in some circumstances, if it makes them think carefully about what they're going to do, rather than just "follow the pack" on certain things, then a touch of bullishness doesn't always go amiss. in other words, if you can say you modified or bought something because it was a genuine improvement, or a carefully researched one on your account, then that's great. I've seen too many LP12's bought blind in the past because such-&-such magazines told them to, or be cast out as unclean - you think I'm joking?? :lol:
I know you're not joking from personal experience. Do you remember the "Gramophone" sketch from Alas, Smith & Jones? I had a slightly less extreme, but similar experience when visiting a Northampton based hi-fi dealer back in the early '80's. I was using a Connoisseur BD2 with a Shure M75 cart at the time and I was told, quite bluntly, that they were crap and that I should buy a Sondek. I didn't like the LP12 then and I haven't changed my opinion, and it's not all down to arrogant dealers.
Incidentally, the dealer is no longer in business, I can't think why... :scratch:
I can - but the staff that finished up when the Northampton business was "transferred" to the parent business in Peterborough (and the owner who had sold the freehold on the business property and emigrated by then) weren't the staff you would have seen in the early to mid eighties. I suspect these people/person ended up being the current LP12 guru in Leister's Cymbiosis (formerly Listen Inn Leicester). Mr Swain does a very good job on LP12's and here is where his heart still lay when I last saw him a few years ago.
I wondered if you might know the dealer in question. Hopefully things have changed for the better at the new premises.
After that incident, the only opportunity they ever got to relieve me of any cash was when I purchased a Grado FCE+ from them a little while later. That cart worked beautifully on my ageing BD2 in two ways: It played records really well and also functioned impressively as a radio receiver for Nortax Taxis who were located next door to my parents pub, The Bird In Hand. Their broadcasts made listening to music somewhat interesting...
"....have become, comfortably numb.... ....Okay (okay, okay)... Here's a little pin pri...{SPFRRT!!!}Car 9... I have a pick-up for you at The Racehorse on Abingdon Street, going to 27, St James Park Road, over...{PHUT}...ut you may feel a little sick..."
Oh how I miss those days... NOT!!!! :lolsign:
I wondered if you might know the dealer in question.
I worked there (for the Northampton concern) for a few years and, sometimes tricky boss aside, these were very happy times for me, also apparently, very profitable times for the business concerned. What became Cymbiosis had split away some years before and is a great place to visit if you're "one of the flock."
Wakefield Turntables
30-12-2010, 11:25
I worked there (for the Northampton concern) for a few years and, sometimes tricky boss aside, these were very happy times for me, also apparently, very profitable times for the business concerned. What became Cymbiosis had split away some years before and is a great place to visit if you're "one of the flock."
Just read a few of the last posts and couldn't agree more. I have a LP12 partly stripped sitting in my office waiting to be put in my attic. I stopped going over to the LP12 forum because I hated the "flock" mentality. I want a TT that works 1st time everytime, I dont want to be worrying about spring settings, or which weave of mat to use when playing vinyl. :eek:
Thanks for the advice, the LVX arm sounds good to me?
Years ago I built up an LP12 for my son and stuck an LVX on it. It sounded much worse than the Ariston RD11s that it was replacing, which had an RB250 on it. I messed around with that deck for ages, new springs etc but it still sounded like a dog. Eventually I bought a Rega arm-board and put an RB300 on it. Good grief! Night and day. The deck now worked.
I've used all of Linn's arms except the Ekos and early 'S' shaped Basik and I wouldn't recommend anything less than an Akito. Even the Akito is not as good as any Rega arm but the Basik arms are dogs. They may work on a very cheap deck but they will hold you back big time on anything of quality.
I have a LP12 partly stripped sitting in my office waiting to be put in my attic.
You should flog it while they're fetching stupid money. Before everyone realises that they are just record players! ;0) Or sell it as parts, is the bearing any good?
JazzBones
30-12-2010, 13:50
Just read a few of the last posts and couldn't agree more. I have a LP12 partly stripped sitting in my office waiting to be put in my attic. I stopped going over to the LP12 forum because I hated the "flock" mentality. I want a TT that works 1st time everytime, I dont want to be worrying about spring settings, or which weave of mat to use when playing vinyl. :eek:
How do Rexton, I'm jumping in here, and DSJR knows me personally. I have an LP12 which I completely rebuilt and as long as common sense prevails, re set up and not spending insane money on Linn's and other third party mods, the deck is a good'un its just been fashionable for people to slag it off to gain the odd kudos and 'hey look at me' I'm great and have the best TT in the world and its better than a Linn, who cares, different floats for different boats thing. Well the world don't work like that. As for the little old shop in Northampton, I took my LP12 there in the early days, Pre Dave R, to have the Cirkus fitted, what a farking mess, eg: one of the tonearm earth wires had not been connected.. WHAT!!!! I got the deck home and luckily noticed the non-earth before switch on plus the fact that the deck did not behave properly. From that day on I have set up my own LP12, yes its time consuming, but once done thats it unless of course you keep moving it from one location to another, but why? I also have a Tekko 1210 and BOTH decks are responsible for many hours of vinyl spinning pleasure.
As an aside, at the Whittelbury show last September, I had a brief encounter (friendly sort) with Martin Colloms, knowing that he has a fully tricked out LP12 with all of Linns up market mods and Aro TA. I said to him, 'Howz it compare to a good Direct Drive TT (Tekko was not mentioned by me)?' the look I got was the ' remove thyself oh shit person' and that the Full Works LP12 was the best at £20K.!!! To me, this sort of babble is what turns people against a good turnable :steam:, but its not a universal liked turntable taking into account personal requirements, nothing is universally liked with the exception of a good, comfortable pay cheque to buy goodies with, :eyebrows:yeh!
....... Now in defense of Naim amps, well lets leave that for another time, eh?
Ron of many years;)
Please don't mention Linn and Naim in the same sentence, one is more than enough...:peace:
As an aside, at the Whittelbury show last September, I had a brief encounter (friendly sort) with Martin Colloms, knowing that he has a fully tricked out LP12 with all of Linns up market mods and Aro TA. I said to him, 'Howz it compare to a good Direct Drive TT (Tekko was not mentioned by me)?' the look I got was the ' remove thyself oh shit person' and that the Full Works LP12 was the best at £20K.!!!
is that the same journo who has a CRYO treated equipment stand!!!!
JazzBones
30-12-2010, 15:04
As an aside, at the Whittelbury show last September, I had a brief encounter (friendly sort) with Martin Colloms, knowing that he has a fully tricked out LP12 with all of Linns up market mods and Aro TA. I said to him, 'Howz it compare to a good Direct Drive TT (Tekko was not mentioned by me)?' the look I got was the ' remove thyself oh shit person' and that the Full Works LP12 was the best at £20K.!!!
is that the same journo who has a CRYO treated equipment stand!!!!
Okay, I won't mention Linn and Salisbury in the same post... see, I done it:eyebrows::ner:
Stone me and hide my favourite drinking mug, I did not know that people would go to the trouble of cling filming their equipment racks and sticking 'em in the freezer... struth, the missus must have got a startle when she went for the evenings pork chops and peas?
To save the earth and carbon feet prints did you just leave your cables out in the snow to Cryo 'em, it sure messed my garden hosepipe up and it didn't work either, just curious? :)
Ron
Cryo has to be -194C (ish) and it's not that cold over here....:beer::laugh:
Wakefield Turntables
30-12-2010, 21:41
How do Rexton, I'm jumping in here, and DSJR knows me personally. I have an LP12 which I completely rebuilt and as long as common sense prevails, re set up and not spending insane money on Linn's and other third party mods, the deck is a good'un its just been fashionable for people to slag it off to gain the odd kudos and 'hey look at me' I'm great and have the best TT in the world and its better than a Linn, who cares, different floats for different boats thing. Well the world don't work like that. As for the little old shop in Northampton, I took my LP12 there in the early days, Pre Dave R, to have the Cirkus fitted, what a farking mess, eg: one of the tonearm earth wires had not been connected.. WHAT!!!! I got the deck home and luckily noticed the non-earth before switch on plus the fact that the deck did not behave properly. From that day on I have set up my own LP12, yes its time consuming, but once done thats it unless of course you keep moving it from one location to another, but why? I also have a Tekko 1210 and BOTH decks are responsible for many hours of vinyl spinning pleasure.
I had a fully tricked out LP12 (until the latest upgrades came out) with a full quad 77 setup and Quad 22L speakers and the soundstage was immense with probably the most tuneful bass that I have ever heard. My current fully tricked out 1210 dosent have the tuneful bass but its got sledgehammer slam :eek: I love what Linn have done with the Keel, the Urika phonostage but the cost of upgrades for the lp12 is just stupid. Maybe one day when the kit starts coming onto fleabay I might trick the lp12 out but at this moment in time, I;ll stick with mi Techie1210. :cool:
Talking of the 1210, have Technics stopped producing it? I heard rumors a while back on another forum that they had, but no definitive answers... :scratch:
Oh apparently it's gone, until the next batch is made :lol: There may be a grain of truth in it as a key chip may not be in production any more...
So, Martin Colloms has a fully tricked out LP12 and still thinks he knows it all? Amazing how these journo's (engineering background or not) say one thing to their sheep/hangers-on and quite another behind the scenes (I'm mainly thinking of KK here). Don't believe a word of it, as they're looking for their next commission ;)
chris@panteg
31-12-2010, 09:56
Talking of the 1210, have Technics stopped producing it? I heard rumors a while back on another forum that they had, but no definitive answers... :scratch:
I'm afraid it appears to be true alas .
If i can mention the LP12 for a moment , what galls me the most is statements like this ' All the Technics decks in the world will never sound as good as a well set up LP12 ' now this is fine if the person has owned and used a broad selection of turntables , Technics and other's but more often than not the person making the statement has used an LP12 for 20 years ! used nothing else and has heard the odd deck at a hifi show .
Having had an LP12 myself for 13 years i fell into a kind of head in the sand mentallity ' but thankfully i weaned myself off the LP12 and although deep down i would love to still have one ! and indeed my old Voyd , but its not possible , if i had kept the LP12 would i be one those that simply dismiss the Techie as DJ Jap crap and be completley anal about it ! its very likely .
Ohh and for the record a well set up LP12 in the right system can sound marvelous , but its just a record player more or less flawed like everything else.
Hi Chris,
If i can mention the LP12 for a moment , what galls me the most is statements like this ' All the Technics decks in the world will never sound as good as a well set up LP12 '
What ignorant balloon said that?
Marco.
The LP12 in all it's glory costs £14,000 for the top one, obviously that will beat a Technics basic model un-modded, it's all the combination's in-between that leave pause for thought, I would say Marco's would trounce the basic LP12 but not the top one I think. Then there are all the things connected to it to consider, system synergy is still important innit?
I mean look at this lot for starters..........
Modified MK5G Technics SL-1210 with Mike New high-precision bearing and Copper Composite Platter/Blue Horizon T/T mat and Paul Hynes SR5-21 PSU/Jelco SA-750D (with Jelco heavy counterweight) and Bruil record weight/Ortofon SPU Classic GM MKII, (Shure M3D and Denon DL-103 also used with high-mass vintage headshells). Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 transport/DAC. Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X preamp. Auditorium 23 MC step-up transformer and Nick G modified Lentek MC 'head amp'. Tube Distinctions 40W Class A (P/P) KT88 Copper amp using NOS GEC valves. 'Lockwood Major' speakers with 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds, using modern high-grade crossovers. Celestion Ditton 15 XRs also used. Stands by Mana (non-magnetic stainless steel version arranged in various 'Phases'). Cables: Mark Grant DSP 2.5 mains leads upgraded with Furutech FI-50 IECs and Furutech FI-1363 mains plugs. Mark Grant G2000HD interconnects fitted with WBT NextGen-0110 Cu RCAs. Also, Supra 'Trico' digital cable fitted with WBT NextGen-0110 Cu RCAs. VDH 'The Wind' Hybrid II speaker cable. Tube Distinctions mains filter. VPI HW 16.5 record cleaner.
YOU COULDN'T STICK AN LP12 ON THE END OF THIS LOT AND EXPECT IT TO SHINE COULD YOU.......
chris@panteg
31-12-2010, 11:12
Hi Marco
Take a look over at PFM , the thread about TT stability also i have been taking the odd peek at the Linn forum (LP12 thread) where a Linn dealer (respected) made the statement ' spending money and time modifying the SL1200 is insane and tantamount to madness , and that's really funny to me , so spending £6000 to upgrade the LP12 is quite sensible then LOL .
It seems to me the madness is arguing and squabbling about which turntable is best and the most musical , i think some people are losing the plot , the LP12 with everything just right and set up is fine , so are many other deck's .
I don't want to mention any names Marco , as i don't think it would be right ! .
chris@panteg
31-12-2010, 11:15
The LP12 in all it's glory costs £14,000 for the top one, obviously that will beat a Technics basic model un-modded, it's all the combination's in-between that leave pause for thought, I would say Marco's would trounce the basic LP12 but not the top one I think. Then there are all the things connected to it to consider, system synergy is still important innit?
I mean look at this lot for starters..........
Modified MK5G Technics SL-1210 with Mike New high-precision bearing and Copper Composite Platter/Blue Horizon T/T mat and Paul Hynes SR5-21 PSU/Jelco SA-750D (with Jelco heavy counterweight) and Bruil record weight/Ortofon SPU Classic GM MKII, (Shure M3D and Denon DL-103 also used with high-mass vintage headshells). Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 transport/DAC. Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X preamp. Auditorium 23 MC step-up transformer and Nick G modified Lentek MC 'head amp'. Tube Distinctions 40W Class A (P/P) KT88 Copper amp using NOS GEC valves. 'Lockwood Major' speakers with 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds, using modern high-grade crossovers. Celestion Ditton 15 XRs also used. Stands by Mana (non-magnetic stainless steel version arranged in various 'Phases'). Cables: Mark Grant DSP 2.5 mains leads upgraded with Furutech FI-50 IECs and Furutech FI-1363 mains plugs. Mark Grant G2000HD interconnects fitted with WBT NextGen-0110 Cu RCAs. Also, Supra 'Trico' digital cable fitted with WBT NextGen-0110 Cu RCAs. VDH 'The Wind' Hybrid II speaker cable. Tube Distinctions mains filter. VPI HW 16.5 record cleaner.
YOU COULDN'T STICK AN LP12 ON THE END OF THIS LOT AND EXPECT IT TO SHINE COULD YOU.......
:lol:
I don't think the LP12 suspension would cope ? you know how sensitive the old girl is lol .
JazzBones
31-12-2010, 11:16
Hi Chris,
What idiotic balloon said that?
Marco.
Obviously an idiotic balloon with the same brain content as within said balloon, yes? I own both turntables, I enjoy both turntables and neither is better than the other, just different thats all. The same sort of arguement is made 'twix difference between real ale and a cold beer. Coming from that old colony that just handed the Ashes over :( I prefer a coldy but have supped the ale stuff and that ain't bad either, its good for shining the outer platter of the LP12 too:lol: Get ya next time 'round ;)
Ron aka Jazz
Hi David,
I would say Marco's would trounce the basic LP12 but not the top one I think.
As Chris has said, I think it'd be a case of different rather than better. At the end of the day, all T/Ts have their individual sonic 'flavours' that will appeal to some more than others.
One thing's for sure, though - regardless of whatever overpriced nonsense from Linn is strapped onto an LP12, it's still a medium-mass T/T being driven by an elastic band, and so IMO, fatally flawed!
So I'm afraid that £14k or not, one will still hear its speed stability issues (and wavering of pitch on piano notes, etc, and how this messes up music) compared to a high-quality totally speed accurate direct-drive T/T, such as a modified Techie :)
Hi Chris,
If i can mention the LP12 for a moment , what galls me the most is statements like this ' All the Technics decks in the world will never sound as good as a well set up LP12 ' now this is fine if the person has owned and used a broad selection of turntables , Technics and other's but more often than not the person making the statement has used an LP12 for 20 years ! used nothing else and has heard the odd deck at a hifi show .
Indeed - this is why I wouldn't allow clowns like that anywhere near AoS, as quite simply, their opinion is utterly worthless, as it's based on deluded Linn 'fanboyism' and zero practical experience of the T/T they're criticising (when fully modified)! :wanker:
Take a look over at PFM , the thread about TT stability also i have been taking the odd peek at the Linn forum (LP12 thread) where a Linn dealer (respected) made the statement ' spending money and time modifying the SL1200 is insane and tantamount to madness , and that's really funny to me , so spending £6000 to upgrade the LP12 is quite sensible then LOL .
Hahaha - indeed! I'd love to see how the fanboys could rationalise such a ludicrous pricing structure for what amounts to no more than using a bandage in an attempt to cure a fatally wounded animal.....
But then some folk love their 'badges' and being part of a clique, don't they? :rolleyes:
I'll take a look at the thread on pfm and comment more later.
Marco.
According to the other Techie expert dahn saff-west, the LP12 is still a very valid turntable in comparison to a Techie. I was married to the LP12 for too long to just dismiss the current examples out of hand. All I really take issue with is the insane "survival" pricing Linn have these days, although there's always the Rubykon of course and good used Ittoks......
P.S. That elastic band is actually a thick, well ground example and the platter isn't hugely light either. I suspect dynamic wow isn't a huge problem tbh, unless you're tracking at 3 grammes or over. It's still a "quiet" base upon which to play records (no rumble) and now the major colourations have gone (for a price..) and the plinths are better than ever, I can't help but respect it, even if my next turntable choice is a Spacedeck (which ain't far off if not still superior and all for a grand all in... - makes standard Rega arms sound as good as re-wired and de-painted ones on anything else ;) - only joking)
Hi Dave,
According to the other Techie expert dahn saff-west, the LP12 is still a very valid turntable in comparison to a Techie.
Who he, then? :)
I'm not saying that it isn't "valid". How does one define that anyway, as such things are entirely subjective....
Many people will always prefer an LP12 to a modified Techie, simply because they enjoy the effect of its inherent colorations on its musical presentation - and that's absolutely fine.
The problem I have is when idiots who don't have a clue what they're talking about slate a turntable they have never heard, even remotely properly, based on years of ingrained prejudice, or some commercial agenda :rolleyes:
However, I'm as familiar with how an LP12 sounds (including a fully 'tricked out' one with Keel, etc, which I heard in Loud & Clear in Glasgow), as am with a fully modified Techie, therefore I'm qualified to comment on BOTH from a position of experience, unlike the uninitiated on pfm Chris was referring to.
I've owned umpteen different LP12s in the past, the last of which was just under three years ago, so I know what I'm talking about. I can assure you that I didn't sell it because it was better than what I've got now! ;)
The fact is, some people neither want nor like a neutral sound, and so for those people, the LP12 will always be more 'musical' than a T/T, like a modified Techie (or SP10), which simply tells you what your records sound like without euphonically 'editing' their presentation by 'seasoning the sound' accordingly.
Do you like your chips covered in ketchup, or do you prefer the taste of the real potato 'as is' without any artificial additives?
Now there's bugger all wrong with falling into the former category (as at the end of the day our choice of turntable is down to personal taste), as long as you ADMIT IT and don't attempt to portray the experience as being more real than eating chips 'au natural', as it were.
But most LP12 lovers don't do that. They continually portray the LP12 as being more 'musical sounding' than T/Ts, which to anyone who isn't deaf, clearly add LESS! :mental:
How can anything sound more musical than the music itself??? Therefore, any T/T that adds less of its own 'character' to the music is, by definition, more musical!
I was married to the LP12 for too long to just dismiss the current examples out of hand.
You see, that's a concept I just cannot relate to. Forgive me for being frank, but how can you be "married" to a bloody turntable?? :scratch:
It's this emotional connection with a brand - the need to be part of a group, which says more about the person than it does about the product itself.
I'm not "married" to any piece of equipment in my system. The only thing I'm "married" to (other than my wife) is what makes my favourite music SOUND the best, whether that's a modded Techie, an SME 30, or a piece of wet string.
I couldn't give a monkey's bollocks about 'loyalty' to a brand or any rose-tinted nostalgia. The only reason I go on about the Techie is because when you've modified it to the level I have, it sounds bloody amazing!
I'll tell you quite honestly, if I heard something tomorrow that I considered set a whole new benchmark in the T/T SPPV stakes, I'd sell my Techie quicker than you can say 'double-dafties love DJ decks', and embrace the use of whatever it was that I considered to be better.
My only loyalty is to the pursuit of excellent sound and my enjoyment of music - the equipment (and who makes it) is simply a means to an end. I just don't get the brand loyalty thing, or wanting to be part of a clique of like-minded fanboys. I do my OWN thing - and always will!
If others wish to follow my example, then that's up to them.
All I really take issue with is the insane "survival" pricing Linn have these days, although there's always the Rubykon of course and good used Ittoks......
The Linn pricing is an utter joke, and so the least said about it, the better. I applaud people like Andrew for coming up with products which fundamentally address the same issues with the LP12 as those from Linn, but at sane prices. Let's not forget that it is hugely expensive to have products like Andrew sells engineered in the UK - but there's realistic, and there's ripping the arse out of it and treating people like mugs, which is what Linn do!
P.S. That elastic band is actually a thick, well ground example and the platter isn't hugely light either. I suspect dynamic wow isn't a huge problem tbh, unless you're tracking at 3 grammes or over. It's still a "quiet" base upon which to play records (no rumble) and now the major colourations have gone (for a price..) and the plinths are better than ever...
That may be the case, but the acid test is in the listening, and I can undisputably and unquestionably hear wavering and 'warbling' of notes, due to the speed instability of the LP12 (regardless of whether it is measurable or not), compared to a top-notch direct-drive T/T, and how this adversely affects how realistically music is reproduced.
And that occurs no matter what cartridge is used, or whether an LP12 has been extensively modified or not, quite simply because none of the current modifications address the fundamental problems of it being driven by an elastic band.
Belt-drive (or string drive) can work very well indeed, but the LP12 is by no means a flawless example of that design philosophy, no matter how many thousands of pounds you throw at it with aftermarket modifications.
I can't help but respect it, even if my next turntable choice is a Spacedeck (which ain't far off if not still superior and all for a grand all in...
Lol - I think you're dreaming (especially the way my T/T is now), but the ONLY way we'll will ever know that, Dave, is to do the comparison and let the results speak for themselves. So when you buy a Spacedeck, I'll come down for a sesh (no need for you to travel anywhere), and bring my Techie with me. I'm sure we'll have some fun :cool:
Marco.
If you take a Technics SL-1210 and change the platter, power supply, tone-arm, mat, main bearing and add a record weight is it reasonable to suggest that it is still an SL-1210? You've changed most of the parts that define the performance level of the design to very non-Technics parts and if you don't mind me saying so you've spent a heck of a lot of money doing so.
What you're really talking about is a different, high-performance, high-cost turntable based on the design of the SL-1210. It's not an SL-1210 in the same way that Jason Plato does not drive a Chevrolet Cruze around Brands Hatch of a Sunday.
I'm not saying that such a record player is not better than an LP12, I don't know. What I am saying is that to suggest that some giant slaying has been accomplished here is rather misrepresenting the facts. Most turntables would be capable of high performance if you changed almost all of the critical components for higher quality ones. But if you do that you're not talking about the same turntable.
Reid Malenfant
31-12-2010, 18:24
If you take a Technics SL-1210 and change the platter, power supply, tone-arm, mat, main bearing and add a record weight is it reasonable to suggest that it is still an SL-1210?
I'd suggest the very same of the LP12 seeing as that's gone through so many changes :eyebrows: You can't have it one way if both have changed so much imo ;)
Change the chassis & then yes i'd suggest it becomes something else entirely & only based on the Technics motor & control circuitry :)
I'd suggest the very same of the LP12 seeing as that's gone through so many changes
Yes, but it is an LP12. If you walk into a shop and ask for an LP12, that's what you'll get. It is this high-cost, high-performance turntable made by Linn that you are talking about the Technics bettering.
But it's not a Technics. None of the performance upgrades listed are made by Technics, nor is the tonearm. You've assembled a turntable that can take on an LP12, but it's not an SL-1210.
Hi Colin,
I fully agree :)
The point about this, however, is achieving the highest SPPV (sound-per-pound value), which is at the core of the AoS ethos regarding assembling a hi-fi system.
If we use me as an example, to date I've spent around £3.5k on my SL-1210 (everything has been replaced bar the motor, control circuitry and plinth) and so, yes, I suppose it no longer is an SL-1210. You can call it what you like - I really don't care.
However, I've heard some very expensive T/Ts at many times the cost of my modified SL-1210 not sound anything like as good (some have been truly shit), so if by spending £3.5k on a modded Techie gives me the sonic performance of a much more expensive 'badged hi-end' T/T, or outperforms it, then I've won a watch!
Now what would happen *if* it smoked a £14k LP12.....? ;)
As you're relatively new to the Techie thing you wouldn't necessarily know this, but the most important part of its design is the superb Quartz controlled direct-drive motor and its associated control circuitry, which if produced today by anyone other than a MASSIVE global electronics giant like National Panasonic, would cost many thousands of pounds....
That's why people are buying Techies (for as little as £200 second-hand) and modifying them to a point which divorces them from their original status, because the motor unit is the desirable bit - all the rest is disposable. And once done, you have a real 'giant-killer' on your hands!
I'll bring mine with me next time I pop up to Glasgow and you can hear where I'm coming from for yourself. Any excuse for a sesh (and I can bring Snapper, if he's free, with me, if you like) :cool:
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
31-12-2010, 18:37
But it's not a Technics. None of the performance upgrades listed are made by Technics, nor is the tonearm. You've assembled a turntable that can take on an LP12, but it's not an SL-1210.
Are you attempting to convince me & the police that a Ford Escort isn't a Ford Escort as long as it has the original chassis no matter how modified it might be :scratch:
It'll still be down on the V5 as a ford even if you fit a Bugatti Veyron engine, cut the roof off & give it 6 wheels :eyebrows:
Imo as long as the chassis is a Technics one it's a modified Technics deck - Simples ;)
Are you attempting to convince me & the police that a Ford Escort isn't a Ford Escort as long as it has the original chassis no matter how modified it might be :scratch:
It'll still be down on the V5 as a ford even if you fit a Bugatti Veyron engine, cut the roof off & give it 6 wheels :eyebrows:
Imo as long as the chassis is a Technics one it's a modified Technics deck - Simples ;):cool:
:hotrod::hotrod::hotrod::hotrod:
Marco, it wasn't me rattling your cage and I agree with all you say. I heard how good a STANDARD Techie could be many years ago, so don't need any re-conditioning on that score, I assure you.
I take it though, that you heard the slight LP12 pitch instability still on your recent listening session? That's a shame.. (I know it's there, ever since I compared one to a 301donkey's years ago...).
Regarding being "married" to a turntable - I think you have to have lived and worked in the audio industry from the mid seventies to mid eighties at least, when Linn brought out their own amps and Naim introduced the ARO and Armageddon a tad later. Linn told us a lot of easily demmable truths and subtly introduced what now is regarded as blind brain washing, intentionally or otherwise. Many of us Linnies were young (or drugged out old hippies) and impressionable and to me for a while, there was no other deck (until my mate got an ex-BBC 301 from "work" and set it up ;)). The systems we used were built entirely around the fruitbox too and so coloured were the standard Karma and Troika's, let alone the mm's we fitted to Regas, that any half decent cartridge with a more natural balance (Nagaoka's, the better Shures, the famous Techie 205mk3 and Ortofons for example) just sounded shrill and unpleasant, when it was mostly the speakers with detached and screaming treble that was the main culprit IMO.
We had a senior staff member in the main branch, a TOTAL Naim-head. Not the type to accept we may have preferred different things, but the type who was derogatory of any alternative viewpoint and patronising with it. Despite the Naim Evening we had where the then new DBL's were making truly hideous noises and the early SssssssBeeeeeELLLLL's were spitting away downstairs, he was convinced of this brand's superiority.
As for me, I have to thank Jazzbones above for showing me how good SBLmk1's could sound at home - his were/are lovely in his lounge on all formats as sources, how subtly better decent twin-screened mains leads were on 135's, how much more "stable" his Arcam 170 transport was and felt when blac-tacked to slate slabs; my mate Martin for showing me how fantastic a 301 could be in a Loricraft-clone plinth and, lastly, HiFi dave showing me how good NAS decks are - AND how much better a standard Rega arm sounds when mounted on one of them as compared to other usual suspects :) and of course introducing me to Glenns wonderful gear, so good yet so inexpensive when compared to the usual top end foo out there...
P.S. Jazzbones Ron knew and worked with me at this time, so I think and hope he can back me up :)
Rare Bird
31-12-2010, 18:58
Dunno why you lot are arguing over TT's..I've had over 25+ years of that shyte to last me a lifetime.
There's no arguing, dude - we're just having a friendly discussion :)
Marco.
chris@panteg
31-12-2010, 19:15
Blimey , i think i should have kept my mouth shut :doh: sometimes its better that way .
This is the problem , we shouldn't be arguing about this or that turntable and if i can again make something quite clear ! i have no problem with the LP12 and whatever the upgrades cost , in fact i still have a soft spot for it and wish i still had mine :) , if Linn feel the price is justified and people want to pay it then that's just fine , just please don't tell me i'm off me rocker for liking and using some old Jap crap ! i get enough of this from a M8 of mine :eyebrows:.
Its just sweeping statements and the failure to back them up and this applies to any bit of kit , i have owned and used an LP12 for 13 years , Voyd for 6 years and now the modded 1210 for getting on 3 years and i like them all .
Iv'e used Valves for 15 years and solid state for err :scratch: whatever and i do like both .
Sorry for the thread drift Hamish i hope the Avalon works out for you , Marco please don't get too wound up over this , i feel guilty now .
Oh, don't worry, mate - I'm far from being "wound up"... It's Hogmanay and I'm currently sipping a chilled glass of Bollinger with tonight's indulgent repast! :eyebrows:
When you mentioned the guy on pfm ('Barry Williams') who clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, I simply wanted to 'address' the situation, as I know many people from pfm read the threads on AoS - so job done! ;)
HAPPY NEW YEAR! :drunk:
Marco.
Bollinger, I make do with Bucks Fizz from M&S.
Happy New "Yaer"...glug.glug
chris@panteg
31-12-2010, 19:55
Oh, don't worry, mate - I'm far from being "wound up"... It's Hogmanay and I'm currently sipping a chilled glass of Bollinger with tonight's indulgent repast! :eyebrows:
When you mentioned the guy on pfm ('Barry Williams') who clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, I simply wanted to 'address' the situation, as I know many people from pfm read the threads on AoS - so job done! ;)
HAPPY NEW YEAR! :drunk:
Marco.
You found it then , yes its new years eve and goodwill to everyone and enjoy whatever drink you have to hand :cool:, but Bollinger ! well the wifey and i have some Guinness in the fridge oh and black sheep/hobgoblin .
Linn told us a lot of easily demmable truths and subtly introduced what now is regarded as blind brain washing, intentionally or otherwise.
Oh I think they knew exactly what they were doing. I would describe it as nothing less than propaganda. The problem is that if people have half a brain they will only fall for it for so long. Eventually they'll see that the facts just don't stack up. This is probably part of the reason Linn are in the weaker position they are in today. Too much time spent telling people you make better products, too little time spent making them.
Despite the Naim Evening where the DBL's were making truly hideous noises and the early SssssssBeeeeeELLLLL's were spitting away downstairs, he was convinced of this brand's superiority.
That's just Naim for you. I never liked Naim speakers much. The SBLs sounded nice enough but far too light weight and two-dimensional.
Those Naim evenings were funny though :0) The best one I was at was for the, then new, CDS2. I'd taken a friend who'd brought one of his friends, who knew nothing about Hi-Fi equipment. After much ado they played the CDS, through a 52/250/active SBL system. How the sheep nodded, much Mmm-ing and scratching of imaginary beards.
After the song finished the Naim bod conducting the dem asked what we all thought. After a few sheepish Baa's the noob piped up. "Actually, I didn't think it was very good. It's a bit harsh isn't it?". You could've heard a pin drop! I was trying not to laugh, as well as trying not to let on that he was with me, but he was dead right. The only way you would come to the conclusion it was a good sound is if someone explained it to you.
Black Sheep, are you from Wales or Yorkshire, either way you have a fetish for sheep...
Happy New Year, now which freezer did I chill that Stella in????
chris@panteg
31-12-2010, 20:07
Black Sheep, are you from Wales or Yorkshire, either way you have a fetish for sheep...
Happy New Year, now which freezer did I chill that Stella in????
Hey don't knock it till you tried it ;) well i'm not from yorkshire, just love the beer and i'm afraid to admit to being a ' plastic welshman ' actually born in Banbury , a town of little carachter and no discernable interest, filled with fuck hutch estate's .
Rare Bird
31-12-2010, 20:17
Aye The beer here is great other that that were a right bunch of wankers :lolsign:
Well, Yorkshire's one of my favourite areas of the UK! :)
Rewinding a bit on this thread, I'd like to know who it was Dave mentioned as "the other Techie expert dahn saff-west"? :scratch:
Marco.
Cawley? He hates the LP12 with a passion! At least he did, every time I spoke to him about it.....
When and/or where did he make this revelation to the contrary?
Marco.
No PM received..... :scratch:
Got your email, though! ;)
Marco.
Seems to me that if someone has owned an LP12 for say 10 years then swap it for a super-upgraded 1210/1200 they may still miss their old LP12 even if they decide that the 1200 is the superior sounding deck.
Why?
Because they are accustomed to their records sounding as presented by the LP12.
Hi Martin,
Yup, of course that's possible... For me, though, the best sound is that which is most faithful to the music on the record. I don't get 'nostalgic' over a style of presentation offered by a turntable I once owned.
Therefore, as I upgrade my T/Ts, and achieve greater fidelity in the process (which logically should be the case for most of us, unless we're going backwards...), it stands to the reason that whatever T/T I'm currently using will be the best :)
So, in that respect, I don't miss any of my old LP12s!
Marco.
Hi Marco
Happy New year mate!
In your case it would be true to say then that you prefer the SL1210 to your Linns in every respect - I don't think we can get into notions of 'greater fidelity' as there is no accepted benchmark (for practical comparison, anyway) for this concept.
Some may prefer some aspects of the LP12 sound even if, overall, they prefer the 1210- for example I always liked that bit of bass bloom that many people complain about.
Rare Bird
01-01-2011, 11:22
This might sound daft but i use equipment i've chosen based on the build quality & look of the thing over absolute sound quality.Of course theirs equipment that will make mince meat out of what i use but i choose to ignore their existence.
Once you've been exposed to the majic of cartridges like Decca's, these seem to show you a good way to explore, even if you get there with alternative products I found.
Hi Martin,
Happy New year, dude. Hope you had a good one last night! :)
In your case it would be true to say then that you prefer the SL1210 to your Linns in every respect - I don't think we can get into notions of 'greater fidelity' as there is no accepted benchmark (for practical comparison, anyway) for this concept.
Well, by "greater fidelity" I simply mean hearing music in your system reproduced to a higher standard, sonically.
Isn't that the criteria we all use when upgrading ANY piece of equipment in our systems? :scratch:
The reason I no longer own an LP12 (or miss it) is because my modded Techie sonically outperforms it in every way I can think of - if one's goal is any notion of accuracy.
Quite simply, any equipment I remove from my system is sonically inferior to what replaces it, otherwise I'd be going backwards rather than forwards.... I'm *ultra careful* of making sure that I always achieve a genuine upgrade.
Some may prefer some aspects of the LP12 sound even if, overall, they prefer the 1210- for example I always liked that bit of bass bloom that many people complain about.
Lol - the bass bloom (and wavering of pitch on certain notes) is precisely what I hated about mine! :eyebrows:
If you like that bass bloom, then you'll hate the sphincter-tight, grippy (ultimately less coloured) sound of a modded Techie ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
01-01-2011, 11:42
I think some people are used to hearing their music how certain equipment potrays it, a different deck maybe a definate improvement in sound, but if the sound alters, the person may not like it hence they will stick with the original item
Sure, dude - I get that.
For me, I simply go with what bit of kit makes music sound more real to my ears, as in 'real' based on the sound I'm used to hearing when attending performances of live music.
I go to lots of concerts of various types of music (some using PAs and some purely acoustic), so I know how real instruments and voices are supposed to sound.
Replicating that sound, as closely as possible, has always been the criteria I use for building my hi-fi system, and my Techie does this much better than my LP12 ever did :)
Marco.
This might sound daft but i use equipment i've chosen based on the build quality & look of the thing over absolute sound quality.Of course theirs equipment that will make mince meat out of what i use but i choose to ignore their existence.
It's not daft, as ultimately your hi-fi system has to please YOU and fulfil YOUR expectations, so if that's what works for you, then stick with it :)
I'm rather different in that respect - yes, I love kit that looks good and is built well, but ultimately out-and-out sonic performance is the most important thing (together with reliability).
Marco.
The ironic thing is that Linn of all people should know where they're at, as they have a large library now of superb master recordings, 30IPS no-Dolby analogue to hi-def digital, with which to compare their sources to. I appreciate the LP12 is much closer to this ideal than it used to be, having been shown how far away and just plain awful it was back in the pre-Cirkus days, but there's still long ways for them to go I think and "sticking plasters" at great expense isn't one of them IMO.
One reason why I love Tom Fletcher's designs so is that without having a reference (he was into Decca SXL LP's with loads of added eq on them for example), he was able to so closely replicate the sonic abilities of the master recordings I loved so much - the Mentor platter was so heavy it just didn't suffer wow of any kind - period! I'm sure the techie does the same and look forward to hearing a fully fettled one soon.
I appreciate the LP12 is much closer to this ideal than it used to be, having been shown how far away and just plain awful it was back in the pre-Cirkus days.
Actually, that's an interesting point. Not the Cirkus but the fact that Linn have just updated the LP12 rather than developing a new turntable.
Not that I'm complaining. I think it's great that the thing has retained exactly the same shape and configuration allowing any updates to fit any age of deck. It's just surprising when you think about it.
Linn have been happy enough to replace all of their other products with new shapes, sizes and designs. It's odd that at no point a different design of turntable has come up. Well they have, but they've been cheaper models.
Going back to the issue of colouration. You can't really argue about the Linn being coloured, of course it is. In fact you don't need a direct drive deck to highlight the speed stability issues, just a solid plinth belt drive will do it. But for some reason it doesn't matter. I agree, it should, but I don't care.
Take the Cirkus for example. The Cirkus is simply a better engineered bearing on a more rigid subshassis. How could it possibly be wrong? There was great excitement when it came out and I must have been amongst the first to have it fitted. It was clearly better, you could hear it straight away. Bass was tighter, deeper and the 'bloom' was gone. Overall levels of detail and clarity were up and the sound seemed less coloured.
Only problem seemed to be that I didn't enjoy playing records as much. I did try, I kept the Cirkus in for five years, but despite everything I tried the magic just seemed to be missing. I assumed it had to be some other issue but eventually I saw other people pointing fingers at the Cirkus and I took it out.
Never looked back. Being technically better isn't the whole story. Music is something we connect to on an emotional level and it's a funny business where sometimes colouration actually helps! I also go to a lot of live concerts and they virtually never sound as clean as many 'good' Hi-Fi systems.
I'm not arguing for the superiority of the LP12 by the way. It's just a record player and I've never thought it was the best one available. Just seems unlikely. All I'm saying is that the idea that less colouration is automatically better is flawed, or at least very short of the whole story. I've heard systems that were technically very good but did not deliver the emotional connection with the music, and without that you've got nothing.
Hi Colin,
Good post :)
Music is something we connect to on an emotional level and it's a funny business where sometimes colouration actually helps!
Indeed, which is why some people enjoy ketchup on their chips ;)
And there's nothing wrong with that. Food, like hi-fi, is a matter of taste. I, however, will always prefer the flavour of the real potato, as it were.
Marco.
JazzBones
01-01-2011, 14:19
The ironic thing is that Linn of all people should know where they're at, as they have a large library now of superb master recordings, 30IPS no-Dolby analogue to hi-def digital, with which to compare their sources to. I appreciate the LP12 is much closer to this ideal than it used to be, having been shown how far away and just plain awful it was back in the pre-Cirkus days, but there's still long ways for them to go I think and "sticking plasters" at great expense isn't one of them IMO.
One reason why I love Tom Fletcher's designs so is that without having a reference (he was into Decca SXL LP's with loads of added eq on them for example), he was able to so closely replicate the sonic abilities of the master recordings I loved so much - the Mentor platter was so heavy it just didn't suffer wow of any kind - period! I'm sure the techie does the same and look forward to hearing a fully fettled one soon.
DaveO, I well remember that Mentor platter, it was a two man lift and needed violence to start it spinning:) Unless you've been going to the gym will you be able to cope with the weight (?)...folks, I josh you not, that platter's generic make up was the weights of an Olympic weight lifter's bar bell. The rubber farmyard castration ring on the rim of Marco's and Martin T's MN plinths is reminicent of the drive belt on your Mentor TT. Rubber bands they were not, more like chest expanders, mate :lol: but the old spinning man hole cover did sound good, dinnit?
Ron
Yeah, until the Decca committed suicide. The Mentor of mine just never sounded the same afterwards and I didn't have the money for expensive cartridges or a Decca repair at the time (very high mortgage rates). I all but gave the bloody thing away as well (I bet we all have similar tales of woe).
The Decca in repaired form sounds wonderful on the TD125 and the 1.6g playing weight doesn't severely upset the belt drive, but I'm very well aware how much better it could be, especially in terms of increased "drive" and "power." Ah well, back to the AT6/Ortofon GT :D
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