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leo
24-12-2010, 19:52
I think almost everybody who tried a high quality external regulated psu appreciated the improvements in sound quality it made over the Technics stock supply , I was very impressed with the PH PR3G3HD-21 diy based supply, it was certainly worth the effort imo.
A few of us have been discussing why not try taking things further ? The plan was to install a pair of 21v high quality regs inside the Technics to supply the motor and its drive circuitry separate from the rest of the circuitry instead of the shared voltage from the external regulated psu . We then increase the output of the external regged supply to allow for the voltage drop needed for the new internal regulation to work.
Paul Hynes designs the best regulation I've come across so was pleased to find he can supply the PR3 modules without the rectifier , this makes them about half size of the full AC input module and makes them a good fit inside the Technics.
The PR3DC-21 DC input modules are suited for the standard 1200/1210 platter , the PR3DCHD-21 are higher current and suited for both standard platter and Mike New platter .

Heres what I've done so far

Inside the stock 1210

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/inside.jpg

Transformer + shield removed, pcb removed

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/transformerremoved.jpg

Bottom of pcb after removal , be careful removing the wired plug in sockets and all the screws

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/underside1pcb.jpg

Separate Paul Hynes PR3DCHD-21 series regulators adjusted for 21v output fitted in the space where the stock transformer sat , I bolted both regulators to a piece of copper clad board to keep them together as a temp fix, some form of mounting plate would be better long term.
The output transistor (part of stock regulator ) was also disconnected and removed.
The top 21v PR3DCHD-21 regulator supplies the main (top half ) of the pcb , the bottom 21v PR3DCHD-21 regulator now supplies the 21v bottom half (motor and its circuitry )

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/regs1.jpg

Bottom of pcb showing track cut isolating the second part of circuit supplying motor and its circuitry , the black cable is from the output of second 21v PR3DCHD-21

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P1110141regs.jpg

Top view showing pcb refitted , the regs in place, wiring etc

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P11101531.jpg

The external regulated psu used now has to have its output adjusted higher to around 27v to give enough headroom for the newly fitted 1210 internal regs. I built another PR3/5 based psu using the higher current PR3ACHD-27 (pics added later) and fitted a transformer with higher rated secondary voltages (the one I fitted originally only had 18v secondarys ) .
The PR5 psu's simply need a small adjustment and don't require any component or transformer change. I also tried an external regulated psu based LM1084 which worked too, definitely not as good as the Paul Hynes module though.

Going from the stock 1210 psu to the diy external one using the PR3G3HD-21 module http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6043 improved the sound in all area's to my ears, infact tbh I was very impressed ! A thick veil was lifted and had reduced distortion, definitely tighter more tuneful bass and brought out more details in the high's. The whole thing sounded more musical and toe tapping.
With the upgraded internal separate regs fed from PR3DCHD-27 there was noticeable improvements, not as large as going from the stock psu to the external one but I did notice a further layer of background muck (best way to describe it) removed, a little smoother in the high's and decrease in sibilance I used to hear on some recordings, bass gained a little more depth whilst remaining tight. All in all very nice.

Swapping the external psu using the PR3DCHD-27 to the one based around CRC feeding a LM1084 also gave good results but to my ears the bass lost some impact and speed, it seemed to loose some of that wow factor it had with the PR3DCHD-27.
Seems the main regged psu still has some influence even when the 1210 is using separate internal regs, I need to try out and compare a few more things yet so will update as soon as I can.

I got all the price details for the regs from Paul for those interested

PR3AC-21/27 standard AC input module £100
PR3DC-21 standard DC input module £80
PR3ACHD-21/27 higher current AC input module £120
PR3DCHD-21 higher current DC input module £100

Postage

Insured carriage and packing for 3 modules is £10 in the UK, £14 in Europe and £20 to the rest of the world.

Most other stuff like cable, case, transformer etc can be found from Maplin, RS and Farnell

Added 07/01/2011

A few pics of the external psu

Paul Hynes PR3ACHD-27 High current module

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P1110994.jpg

Its all discrete! these are much more complex than a simple LM317 ;)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/23641730/394463595.jpg

Transformer and PR3ACHD-27 fitted to the cases base plate, the additional heatsink added is quite chunky, I fitted this for a reason :eyebrows:
I wanted to test this psu with a Virtue Sensation amp too which is classT based.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P1120012.jpg

Cables soldered onto the pcb pads bottom of pcb underneath the sockets

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P1120010-1.jpg

Not the prettiest case but is the best I could get hold of, The Hammond ones wasn't quite big enough this time. I used 4pin lock plug and sockets to allow comparing DC cables later , sorting the cabling out properly will be done last

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P1120026.jpg

Reid Malenfant
24-12-2010, 20:34
Hi Leo, a quick question for you :)

There is a reasonable bit of wire between the regulators & where they connect to the PCB itself, don't you think there may be some benefit in some local bypassing on the PCB to lower the impedance?

At about 20nH per inch of wire it might definately make a difference at least on the motor drive side of things. Less so with the control circuitry obviously due to a more constant current draw.

leo
24-12-2010, 23:21
Hi Mark,

As mentioned near the end of the starting post , theres still things to try out and compare yet . I'll be looking at things like bypassing etc (ta for the suggestion btw) . The pcb layout isn't exactly great ,the grounding tracks are all over the place so all we can do is improve things the best we can :)

The regs output wire is about the thickest I could fit and quite meaty compared to the thin pcb tracks, I'm going to shorten the lengths on the output when finished , for now its easier to remove and re-fit the pcb with a little length on the outputs.

Mike_New
24-12-2010, 23:48
Leo,
Why not discard the terminal blocks and use directly soldered wire.
It has been my experience in heavy current wiring of logic 5-Volt arrays that screwed terminals always quickly form some sort of electrolitic action which results in a higher resistance that is tollerable.

leo
24-12-2010, 23:58
Hi Mike,

Good suggestion ta, once finished I may do that, for now whilst trying other things the terminals along with the longer output wire makes removing the pcb easier. Once we are all satisfied its about as far as we can take the mods it'll be tidied up :)

Paul Hynes
25-12-2010, 00:54
Hi Leo,

Thanks for providing the field trial for the internal regulator mods. I appreciate all the time and effort you have given to this project and the valuable feedback you have provided.

Hi Mark,

In an ideal world the regulation would be right on top of the load and each individual circuit section would benefit from it’s own regulation system. The twin regulator modification is designated as the level two upgrade for the power supply system. As Leo has stated, there is further work to do, and the results of this R&D will be made available when successfully completed. The modification levels are being designed to ensure there is no redundancy along the way so the financial investment of each stage does not reduce the value of previous stages. Remember I have been doing this sort of work for a long time. I already know how far I will be taking these modifications but each stage requires verification to ensure there are no unforeseen problems. This all takes time. I would not recommend something that was not a valid sonic improvement and I am quite sure Leo wouldn’t either.

It is impossible to fit these regulator modules in the ideal position, due to lack of space, but the most important issue here is that the modification is a valid sonic upgrade, even though the wiring distance is not ideal, because it reduces inter-modulation between the control circuitry and the motor drive circuitry. Also a few hundred mm of wire between the regulator output and the load is better than a metre of wire from an external power supply.

As it happens there is some local decoupling on the board and this could be upgraded with higher quality components. Also using a twisted pair of wires for regulator connection will help reduce inductive effects in the wiring. Once again the results of these trials will be posted once completed.

Hi Mike,

The regulator modules are fitted with screw/clamp terminals because many of my customers request them and I can fit the modules in the soak test bay easily using these terminals. I prefer hard-wired connections myself and anyone else who does can remove the terminals and hard wire their favourite wire as they see fit. This is what DIY is all about. As Leo says it is very convenient to have the terminals available during field trials. They can be dispensed with once the trials are over.

Regards to all,
Paul

Mike_New
25-12-2010, 04:01
Hi, Leo and Paul and Others.

I have a rather innovative suggestion for you.
Studying the circuit diagram of the PCB and the Logic Block Diagram today, it would be apparent that supplying a 9.4 DC voltage to the AN6680 control chip and the Q203 Rotation Sensor Amplifier transistor would provide even better performance.

The AN6680 is fed by a frequency crystal, which could also benefit.
Studying the Logic block diagram, it is apparent that the 9.4 V is derived from an internal regulator on the AN6680, which drives the Q201 which is in series with the 21volt main rail.

Now if we split the 9.4V/21V circuit at this point we could then feed the 9.4 volt rail from our in chassis regulator at this point. Leaving the rest to be fed by the 21V supply which would be only the AN6675 Motor Control chip and the speed selector and strobe illuminator if used. The single Quad two-input NAND gate, which requires 5.6V for some reason, is regulated down from the 21V by a Zenor Diode and resistor.

If one required to be really exact, then we could supply a second 21V to feed the NAND gate and the Speed Selector and Strobe, also Stylus Illumination lamp.
In actual fact, the majority of the control circuits are fed by the internally regulated 9.4V supply rather than the 21V

Implementing a distributed power supply as above would surely be the ultimate in power control to the SL1200!! And not cost any more in components.

What do you think?

DSJR
25-12-2010, 11:51
All this tweaking almost makes you think that the Technics engineers were a bunch of idiots and didn't know what they were doing! This is far from the truth I think, so I'd advise extreme care with these drastic mods and make sure at least one of you actually measures what's going on, heavy platters or not, otherwise in attempting to fix supposed problems, you may actually make things worse. Sonic differences can be mis-construed you know -

Oh ok, I'm coming over all "evil auntie" here, but please take care fellas with what you're doing and maybe buy a spare stock deck with which to compare - those add-on boards cost a heck of a lot for what appears to be on them, so if you can readily afford to purchase these, then you can afford a couple of hundred on a stock deck to temporarily use as a reference, which can be sold on later ;)

leo
25-12-2010, 14:02
I only post things which I feel are worthwhile ,I don't bother posting mods I've tried which I thought didn't bring any benefits .
Theres been a lot of discussion about improving the internal regulation of this deck, somebody had to go a step further and actually try it ;) I was hoping the thread may help the competent diyers interested in this mod or help those interested in doing the work for those not competent

I understand engineers know what they are doing but everything has to meet a price point during the design process, we simply improve the parts which have been slightly compromised.

Hopefully carry on the discussions later, its time for me Quorn roast :)

Paul Hynes
25-12-2010, 14:05
Hi Mike,

Further regulation procedures are the next phase of the power supply upgrade. I have already stated that the work is not yet finished. I am in the process of preparing low power miniature printed circuit board versions of the PR3 regulator for individual regulation of each section that requires power in the control section. Finite available time means it is a slow process, rather like maturing wine, and rather than go in and do everything at once I prefer to do things in stages allowing the results of each procedure to be assessed.

Past experience with multiple regulation techniques applied to multi-stage mixed signal circuit systems has proven the validity of separately regulating everything. Setting up regulation in tiers is very beneficial for reducing mains born interference and it helps to provide more consistent performance where dirty mains is an issue. I am not just looking at optimising one parameter with this power supply odyssey.

Hi Dave,

The Technics engineers were not a bunch of idiots. They had to design the deck for the real world at a price that was viable for the chosen market. This inevitably means compromise and they did this very well. I face the same situations with my consultancy work where in many instances I am given a design brief that includes a budget and I have to work out the best compromise for the design within this budget. I could easily do better if the budget constraint was removed and so could the Technics engineers.

High performance power supplies are not beer budget products. In my experience, and many others, it’s so easy to hear the difference between a high performance power supply and a budget implementation that it would be hard to misconstrue the improvement.

Out of interest, the add-on regulator boards use a lot of surface mount components on the track-side of the PCB, and the circuit is somewhat more elaborate than would appear from the topside view. Compared to a 3 terminal regulator application note solution they are more expensive. They are not manufactured by the million, but are carefully hand built to a high quality design that has been refined, with much time and money spent on R&D, over many years. This particular regulator design is building up a rapidly expanding cult following worldwide, and is being used in a wide variety of applications successfully. Significantly, none of my customers has ever returned any of my products using this regulator topology, under my 56 day, return if not satisfied guarantee. What I am selling is intellectual property fabricated into a physical product that works very well providing a very valuable performance improvement that obviously far outweighs the price I charge for my product. If this were not the case I would have a large number of dissatisfaction returns for this regulator product instead of zero returns.

Regards
Paul

Paul Hynes
25-12-2010, 14:13
Hi Leo,

Our posts almost collided.

I have to go and do Christmas too, so will talk later.

Regards
Paul

Reid Malenfant
25-12-2010, 14:20
<snip> All this tweaking almost makes you think that the Technics engineers were a bunch of idiots and didn't know what they were doing!


<snip> I only post things which I feel are worthwhile ,I don't bother posting mods I've tried which I thought didn't bring any benefits .
I understand engineers know what they are doing but everything has to meet a price point during the design process, we simply improve the parts which have been slightly compromised.
I'm with leo on this one, everything is built down to a price where the manufacturer feels pretty sure that they'll get the custom ;)

This modification is totally logical from the point of view of seperating out the control circuitry (which will draw a fairly constant current) from the circuit feeding power to the motor coils (which will be drawn in pulses).

The standard deck is quite satisfactory, but this is about getting as close to the ultimate performance possible from this TT. This is how i'd do it on my deck to get better performance, which incidentally isn't a Technics :eyebrows:

From an engineering point of view it's a bit of a no brainer i'm afraid, it's got to be better & i applaud those that are trying it :) While i feel sure they'll also be applauding the improvement in sound quality even if it may be less obvious than other upgrades, i feel sure it'll be noticeable.

Ammonite Acoustics
25-12-2010, 16:09
............................................. those add-on boards cost a heck of a lot for what appears to be on them, so if you can readily afford to purchase these, then you can afford a couple of hundred on a stock deck to temporarily use as a reference, which can be sold on later ;)

Dave, if I may supplement what Paul Hynes has already written in reply to your post, his regulator boards have a whole load of surface-mount components on the underside of the PCB, so your comments are based on seeing only half of the true picture. These regulators are quite complex things and as such, in my opinion and experience, offer considerable value for money, or as Marco would put it, SPPV. I'm pleased that so many here on AoS now agree with me!

DSJR
25-12-2010, 16:31
SMD's aren't expensive, however, the intellectual property embodied in these boards counts for something I agree.

I still hope that you guys are aware of "exactly" what you're doing, by checking that a difference is actually being achieved, rather than just "gut feelings." There are enough professional engineers involved now to make this possible I think and this would make these upgrades the definitive article.

I was told years ago that many old radio designs were achieved by constructing a circuit and then stripping out unnecessary bits until the circuit stopped working. many great radio sets were apparently designed this way and decades later they're still runing fine. For certain, in many audio circuits, having decent individual supplies for different stages makes perfect and excellent sense, especially when these supplies are right next to where they need to be, but this is a turntable motor control circuit. The general cost-saving argument may be perfectly rational and true in this case, but does this circuit really NEED to have everything separated out? Obviously some of you think it does, in which case, the benefits of doing this should be easy to measure, as well as hear.

Marco
25-12-2010, 16:56
For me, it's a simple case of listening to the results with having everything separated out, and not.

I know how the Techie sounds inside out, especially my own one, so if the former configuration to my ears sounds better, then, quite simply, it *is* better, regardless of theories (or not) to the contrary - or indeed any boring measurement bollocks {yawn}....

Simples - trust your ears (and your system) if they're good enough, and all will be revealed!! :)

Marco.

DSJR
25-12-2010, 19:57
I trusted my ears when I thought they were good and ended up with Isobariks - oh yeah, they were the "next big thing" back then :D

I'm not winding you guys up, but this deck works well as-is and takes incredible punishment in its stride. At least you can get spares for it if you make catastrophic mistakes with the main board..

Marco
25-12-2010, 20:05
Lol - actually, I quite like Isobariks.... Anyway, hope you've had a nice Christmas day, matey! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
25-12-2010, 20:17
We spent so much time snacking we didn't bother with the main meal... We'll save it for tomorrow but heaven knows what my blood-sugar is going to be.......

Early active 'briks could sound bright but incredibly involving. I thought they sort of got worse as the years went on (passive ones sort of got better ironically) and the final active examples just sounded forced and coloured for some reason. Anyway, time to back off and read up with interest on future Techie mods :)


Forgive me Marco, I KNOW you've had a great day with loads of goodies to eat and drink, along with plenty of pussies to fuss - you lucky boy you :D

Paul Hynes
25-12-2010, 20:51
Hi Dave R,

I’m not entirely sure this is accurate information as I’m going back to the early 1980’s and my memory may be at fault, but I do remember a very pleasant evening discussing loudspeaker design with Malcolm Jones of Falcoln Acoustics and Barry of Badger Sound services who I used to work with. I believe the passive Isobariks used a pair of Web Transmission Line crossovers (one for each set of drivers) wired in parallel, hence the reputation for having a punishing amplifier load at the time. These crossovers were supplied to Linn Products by Malcolm Jones who ran Falcon Acoustics. Using a crossover that was designed for a completely different driver loading system would not have been ideal but the crossover design may have changed over time, as this is the nature of product development.

Regards
Paul

DSJR
25-12-2010, 21:36
I think you're right sir, as I remember Falcon Acoustics and/or Badger being mentioned.

Many things happened - the early chipboard cabs definitely suited the active version IMO, the passive DMS's pre 1983 sounding boxy, hollow and "tubey" on vocals. The MDF cabs were definitely better with the DMS version, although the PMS's were never quite as comfortable imo - it may have been the hard-as-nails CB NAP250's though being shown up for the dogs they were when new. By the mid 80's, KEF had to make changes to the B110 and this upset the existing 1KHz peak even more, afecting LS3/5a's too and annihilating the Kans. Linn changed the boxes to have accessible crossovers (don't know if they were different) which made active conversion easy and the B110 was changed to the higher power version which smoothed the response. Trouble is, whether Naim or Linn driven, the "magic" seemed to disappear and the Kan II, Sara 9 and later 'briks to my ears began to sound coloured (box ridden), forced in the bass and with a dead treble, replacing the sometimes glassy (Scanspeak) or tinny (Hiqufon) treble of earlier versions. Just my view obviously, but the best 'brik systems I've heard in peoples rooms have always been early chipboard PMS's driven by bolt-up Naim 250's, later 135's or Krell KSA50's (Jimmy's excellent setup for a few years) and these with a now lo-fi 12S preamp and Snaps (by comparison to what Glenn Croft and others are doing for comparative peanuts), Linn's own active systems sounding as though the music was being squeezed out in a constipated way......

MCRU
26-12-2010, 11:32
What does one do when one doesn't have the time or space or CBA doing all this internal jiggery pokery, any volunteers to do it for me for a nominal fee?

Unless there is an idiots guide to the whole thing, that would sell well???

Puffin
26-12-2010, 12:59
Bit worrying of you're making mains cables isn't it :lolsign:

MCRU
26-12-2010, 14:26
Bit worrying of you're making mains cables isn't it :lolsign:

Not really mate because I very rarely solder mains cables as solder worsens mains lead performance IMHO, I was referring to what looks like delicate solder work and accidentally ruining the whole thing, that was what I was worried about.

Merry Christmas BTW.

Puffin
26-12-2010, 16:55
I was only pulling your leg (or cracker)

Regards

Rob.

leo
07-01-2011, 21:00
Just added a few updates

MCRU
07-01-2011, 21:09
Just added a few updates

WHERE?

leo
07-01-2011, 21:11
Rather than add later in the thread I'll keep adding onto the first post on the first page :) saves faffing about trying to find things

UV101
08-01-2011, 15:59
OK! 1st steps taken last night and now I have an external DC supply!

I have built an unregulated 30v supply. 30va 2x9v (series connected) which give about 30v DC when rectified. That should deliver up to about 1.6A on the output when needed. MBR16100 16A schottky's provide rectification and 2 Panasonic 10,000uF 35v (low esr) provide the smoothing.

I removed the mains transformer and board from inside the player and used the existing heatsink mounting to attach my own FET based regulator carefully set to 21v.

As this is the 1st time i've taken a look inside, I looked to see what else could be changed and I've changed a few rail caps for Rubycon ZA's as I know they are good quality low esr caps.

When I've built another reg, i'll definitely be looking to seperate the control side from the motor winding feeds.

1 question so far......

Is the higher voltage regulator in the external PSU proving useful? As I have said, my external supply is currently unregulated but it would be easy to build another reg at about 26v to sit in the supply.

Cheers :cool:

MartinT
08-01-2011, 17:16
Before you go any further, Ian, what do you hear so far?

What sort of voltage dip are you getting on the unregulated side when starting up the platter, and then in steady state?

UV101
09-01-2011, 22:10
Hi Martin,

The running/ standing unregulated voltage is approx 28.5v. Under start up/ brake loads, the voltage drops to about 26v (although I have a DVM and it would be better to see the dip on a analogue meter!) The reg output appears to remain constant at 21.02v.

So far as sound goes, I cant really be subjective. The TT is new to me as is the cart (DL103 now nude). I've done a lot of research on the TT arm and cart and have added mass to the std arm (as suggested for this cart). The cartridge is fixed to a plate (sold as a stabiliser on eBay). I'm using a Sumiko headshell, a SL1200 achromat and a Michell clamp and I plan to machine a wooden case from some exotic wood (my father-in-law has a small milling machine so it shouldn't be too difficult) for the cart very soon.

My current listening environment is quite poor for TT use which I'm sure will be hampering the performance (horrible feedback). The TT is in the middle between the speakers but is about 18" forward. This is of course playing havoc with the sound. I'm quite confident that when I am able to resolve the placement, the performance will be far in excess of what I was expecting (its really not bad now considering)

Its fairly obvious to me that the external PSU should be better (although the original regulation is better than most to start!) and I'm no stranger to multiple PSU's regs so I just decided to go for it!

(Sorry for all that off topic but I should really explain why I'm unable to be subject other than "imho, it sounds pretty good :scratch:)

So, back to the PSU. Given the voltage drop (not really surprising given the start up load etc) The voltage is dipping by about 2.5v given the fact that the internal regulation doesn't appear to dip at all, wonder what I could expect from a pre reg in the PSU????

Cheers :)

Mike_New
09-01-2011, 22:45
Hi UV101,

Where have you placed the two 10.000uF caps? as I am surprised you are getting that much volatge drop on startup at the unregulated side.

UV101
09-01-2011, 23:05
Hi Mike,

The 2 caps are in the external PSU. I have a 30va 18v TX into the MBR16100's and then the 2 10,000uF TSUPs. This unregulated feed is then fed onto the TT where my regulator is fitted. The dip I'm seeing is on the caps in the PSU. Its only on start up and stop, not during normal running.

Attached a few pics :)

leo
09-01-2011, 23:08
I didn't try an unregged external psu but did compare two regged ones, even with the 1210 internal regulation there was audible differences to my ears between the two external regged psu's. If you can do it easy enough Ian I'd try a regged one too tbh mate.
I don't get any voltage drop at start up

leo
09-01-2011, 23:10
Nice job btw:)

UV101
09-01-2011, 23:26
TY;)

Hamond case came from Farnell but the front and rear panels along with the PCB came from Brent (Fidelity Audio). Makes the job look very tidy!

Its been a while (6 years) since I last had a working TT and even in the unfavourable location, its been a blast getting the old vinyl out and having a listen!

Mike, I've PM'd you about your bearings!! :cool:

UV101
09-01-2011, 23:55
I didn't try an unregged external psu but did compare two regged ones, even with the 1210 internal regulation there was audible differences to my ears between the two external regged psu's. If you can do it easy enough Ian I'd try a regged one too tbh mate.
I don't get any voltage drop at start up

Cheers Leo, I'll pop a reg in there tomorrow and report back!

Mike_New
10-01-2011, 00:09
Hi Mike,
The 2 caps are in the external PSU. I have a 30va 18v TX into the MBR16100's and then the 2 10,000uF TSUPs. This unregulated feed is then fed onto the TT where my regulator is fitted. The dip I'm seeing is on the caps in the PSU. Its only on start up and stop, not during normal running.

Hi Ian,

I am surprised you are seeing such a relatively large voltage drop across 20,000uF
It could be that your DVD is recording just a very short transient drop.
A scope would be the best way to check these things.
Perhaps this is where Paul's special transformer comes into it's own!!
The regulator is doing it's job though!!

Reid Malenfant
10-01-2011, 00:15
Hi Mike,
The 2 caps are in the external PSU. I have a 30va 18v TX into the MBR16100's and then the 2 10,000uF TSUPs. This unregulated feed is then fed onto the TT where my regulator is fitted. The dip I'm seeing is on the caps in the PSU. Its only on start up and stop, not during normal running.

Hi Ian,

I am surprised you are seeing such a relatively large voltage drop across 20,000uF
Has anyone here discovered the VA rating of the transformer?

Just a thought :)

UV101
10-01-2011, 00:19
Perhaps this is where Paul's special transformer comes into it's own!!


Now you got my attention! (well apart from the fact that its 00:15 here and I've got to be up for work in 5 hrs!

Is the TX "special" or is it just more VA? Leo?

Indeed the DVM shows a dip momentarily which of course could be misleading. I'm going to pop another reg in the external PSU case tomorrow and I'll set it about 25v (I should have the head room) I'll take a look with the scope while I've got it in bits again......:cool:

MartinT
10-01-2011, 07:26
Now you got my attention! (well apart from the fact that its 00:15 here and I've got to be up for work in 5 hrs!

Is the TX "special" or is it just more VA?

Hi Ian, Paul describes the transformer here. Lots more good info in this thread, too:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6819&page=8

Mike_New
10-01-2011, 09:17
I promised myself that I would not buy into power supply discussions, as the likes of Paul are well able to provide what people need with a range of excellent options.
However if those few folks who have the experience and electronic knowledge to persue this, then I will contribute my ideas.

In my opinion the better way to handle the tranny problem is to obtain one which has two 18V-20V secondary windings and rated at say 5A
A suitable unit can be obtained from Jaycar in Oz for $55.00 and are rated at 8.8A no less!!. No doubt they are of Asian extraction so they should be available from outlets in the UK and elsewhere.

Paul correctly states that inrush current situations, can cause core saturation problems with toroidal trannys, as they do not have an air gap; 'Inrush Current Suppressors' can be used which limmit the current at switch-on no matter at what point on the sine wave.
These have a variety of characteristics in terms of current and restore time.

Also these current suppressors will help to reduce the initial secondary current through the rectifier diodes with large smoothing cap values such as 20,000uF-40,000uF, as the winding see an initial short circuit before the caps charge up to the working voltage.

Using the two 18V windings (approx 23VDC with a FW rectifier) Then one supply can be used to feed the motor Drive/Regulator circuit at 21.0V
The second can be used to provide the 21V to the other control circuits and be further regulated down to provide the 9V if required.

Shunt any RF by using ceramic and tantulum caps. as suggested in the reference circuits provided for the LM317.

In fact for a few extra dollars the better option would be to use 25V AC windings, which will give a much 'stiffer' regulated supply, as the rectified DC will be bit less than rt2 X Vac or in this case about 35V DC The max input Vdc of the LM317 is rated at 40V.

UV101
10-01-2011, 10:10
By the sounds of it, my transformer is woefully inadequate!

I think a much larger VA TX is in order along with a jump in uF and pre regulation within the external PSU. Will a larger TX deal with core saturation? A 25v 120va would provide a possible 4.8A with parallel secondary's or a 25v 160va would give 6.4A. Both are less than £20 here from RS. How much better during normal operation would this PSU be given a larger better transformer?

My regs are FET based with feedback and should be more than capable of delivering large current to demanding loads so should be quite good here given the size of the heatsink!!:lolsign:

One final thing. My 18v TX is giving me about 28v when rectified. I ususally work on 1.4 x TX voltage but it seem this is incorrect. Can anyone shed any light for me please. The reason I ask is that my caps are 35v and I think I will se more than 35v DC on them using a 25vac TX.

Again Thanks :)

Clive
10-01-2011, 10:22
One final thing. My 18v TX is giving me about 28v when rectified. I ususally work on 1.4 x TX voltage but it seem this is incorrect. Can anyone shed any light for me please. The reason I ask is that my caps are 35v and I think I will se more than 35v DC on them using a 25vac TX.
You have the voltage drop from the diodes to take into account but most of all you have the "regulation" of the TX to add on. Small TXs can have a regulation factor of 15% or more so if you have a light load on such a TX you can be adding close to 15% to your TX output volts. Possibly I've over-simplified a touch but this is near enough.

A higher rated TX will have better regulation, you can check this in the TX specs. A very high VA TX will give you much closer to 25V but possibly more like 27V AC or 34V DC after the diodes (depending on diode type).

chrism
10-01-2011, 10:24
Hi Ian,

My trafo supplies 17.5v AC and around 27.5v DC after rectification. This gives a figure of about 1.5 to 1.6. Hope that this helps.

You could be close to 40v DC using the 25v AC trafo.

Regards

Chris

MartinT
10-01-2011, 10:46
One final thing. My 18v TX is giving me about 28v when rectified. I ususally work on 1.4 x TX voltage but it seem this is incorrect. Can anyone shed any light for me please.

Hi Ian

Your unloaded DC should be sqrt(2) * 18 = 25.4V but that could be rated for, say, 230VAC input. If your input voltage is the more typical 240-250VAC then that would account for the 28V you're seeing.

Mike_New
10-01-2011, 10:46
By the sounds of it, my transformer is woefully inadequate!

I think a much larger VA TX is in order along with a jump in uF and pre regulation within the external PSU. Will a larger TX deal with core saturation? A 25v 120va would provide a possible 4.8A with parallel secondary's or a 25v 160va would give 6.4A. Both are less than £20 here from RS. How much better during normal operation would this PSU be given a larger better transformer?

My regs are FET based with feedback and should be more than capable of delivering large current to demanding loads so should be quite good here given the size of the heatsink!!:lolsign:

One final thing. My 18v TX is giving me about 28v when rectified. I ususally work on 1.4 x TX voltage but it seem this is incorrect. Can anyone shed any light for me please. The reason I ask is that my caps are 35v and I think I will se more than 35v DC on them using a 25vac TX.

Again Thanks :)

Hi Ian,
A larger Tranny will not in itself deal with the saturation problem, but it will be less severe since there will be a lot more 'iron' in the circuit relative to the amount of current you are drawing from the secondary.

The correct way to solve this problem in my judgement, is to use 'inrush current suppressors' which only cost a few cents. However you must allow adequate space around them as they get hot! Essentially their resistance is inversely proportional to their temp. which is not exactly intuitive!!
They have a switching current of 3-6 amps at various switching times.

It is true that if you use the 25V AC option then you will need 50V rated caps. on the raw voltage side.

UV101
10-01-2011, 11:01
ok, that makes sense however, as I'm not a fan of anything "in line" how does this sound as an option.

using a quality relay with mains rated contacts that can be controlled by a simple timer circuit. An "inrush current suppressor" (a specific device or could be a resistor maybe???) could be placed in series with the primary windings. Once the initial start up has taken place, it could be shorted out effectively bypassing it.

Paul Hynes
10-01-2011, 11:28
Hello Ian,

The transformer I use in the SR5 is rated at 160 VA but it is wound on an oversize core with a lower flux density than typical “off the shelf” transformers. The secondary voltage is 25 volts AC. The cores and windings are carefully manufactured from high quality materials. The way the transformer is wound is also a large part of the performance and these transformers are manually wound on a toroidal winding machine to ensure absolute consistency throughout the windings. As Rolls Royce would say, to enquiries about how much engine power their cars possess, they are adequate sir. In other words the transformer is built to perform, not to a price. The price is worked out once the desired performance has been achieved.

Transformers you can buy off the shelf are built to a price and a number of compromises are used to give perceived high efficiency and value for money. The main problems I have had with these low cost transformers are that they are easily shocked into core saturation because of their high flux density. As Mike said there is no air gap in the core to help alleviate any core saturation effects on switch on or for that matter on transient load currents. Once the energy storage capacitor is charged up the load will continuously discharge them at a rate determined by the capacitor size and the load current. The transformer will only add charge once the voltage across the capacitor drops below the rectified input voltage minus the rectifier forward voltage drop at the rate of 50 times a second in the UK (60 in the USA). If the capacitor voltage has dropped say 1 volt lower than the incoming rectified voltage in this time, and the transformer secondary winding impedance is say 0.1 ohms, this will require a 10 amp surge from the transformer at the beginning of each charge period when the rectifiers switch on. I am not entirely happy with the effect that current surge suppressors have on transformer voltage regulation during these transient currents. Also these low cost transformers usually buzz like a hornets nest, especially in the larger core sizes, which is annoying when listening to music.

The SR5 transformer is virtually silent in operation.

Out of interest, if you are using a bridge rectifier for your rectification, you will also need to de-rate the transformer AC current delivery by a factor of 0.6 to arrive at the continuous DC current rating for the power supply. You will also need to allow for periods of heavy load on the grid, which can cause low mains voltage. I usually allow for a 15% mains voltage drop to ensure the regulators have enough headroom under these circumstances.

Regards
Paul

Marco
10-01-2011, 12:42
Hi Paul,

Just a quickie regarding transformers... You wrote:


The transformer I use in the SR5 is rated at 160 VA but it is wound on an oversize core with a lower flux density than typical “off the shelf” transformers. The secondary voltage is 25 volts AC. The cores and windings are carefully manufactured from high quality materials. The way the transformer is wound is also a large part of the performance and these transformers are manually wound on a toroidal winding machine to ensure absolute consistency throughout the windings.


The output transformers on my TD copper valve amp are hand-wound by a 'transformer guru', whom I believe was ex-GEC employee, and so not done by a machine.

What sonic advantages do you (or others here) perceive hand-wound transformers offer over those that are machine-wound?

Regarding the emboldened text above, I would've thought that a machine would wind transformers with more consistency than a human being, as if set correctly, they have presumably less margin for error - or not?

Educate me here! :)

Marco.

Mike_New
10-01-2011, 12:49
Hey Paul
Maybe there is a small extra market for you, selling you transformers to the cognoscenti

Reid Malenfant
10-01-2011, 13:01
You can get tighter wound windings by hand winding using a machine Marco. As each turn or two is added they can be gently knocked together so as to leave no gaps & thus get rid of one source of transformer noise. If the windings can't move they can't rattle or buzz ;)

Mike_New
10-01-2011, 13:15
ok, that makes sense however, as I'm not a fan of anything "in line" how does this sound as an option.

using a quality relay with mains rated contacts that can be controlled by a simple timer circuit. An "inrush current suppressor" (a specific device or could be a resistor maybe???) could be placed in series with the primary windings. Once the initial start up has taken place, it could be shorted out effectively bypassing it.

Hi Ian,

Yes your suggestion is a possible solution, allbeit a somewhat in-elegant one for a HiFi application. What do you have against current inrush suppressors?? Another better option would be to use solid state AC switches, and these are no longer expensive animals.

Marco
10-01-2011, 13:18
Hi Mark,


You can get tighter wound windings by hand winding using a machine Marco. As each turn or two is added they can be gently knocked together so as to leave no gaps & thus get rid of one source of transformer noise. If the windings can't move they can't rattle or buzz


Cool, cheers - I get that :)

Aside from reduced noise in the listening environment, I was wondering how the advantages of hand-winding with transformers would impact on audio performance, and in what way? :cool:

I'm thinking here mainly of output transformers (these presumanbly shouldn't buzz as there is no voltage going through them, no?), rather than mains transformers.

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
10-01-2011, 13:27
Aside from reduced noise in the listening environment, I was wondering how the advantages of hand-winding with transformers would impact on audio performance? :cool:
I'm not sure it would with regards to a power supply transformer other than to prevent it from intruding on the listening experience due to noise. On the other hand a transformer carrying audio such as a valve output transformer needs to be wound as precisely as possible to minimise leakage inductance. Interwinding capacitance may play a part as well, but i don't know a lot about this side of things, never looked into it ;)

Marco
10-01-2011, 13:44
On the other hand a transformer carrying audio such as a valve output transformer needs to be wound as precisely as possible to minimise leakage inductance.

Churz, dude. That sounds as good a reason as any why hand-wound output transformers on a valve amp would offer better performance than those made by a machine, but then I suppose it depends on who is doing the winding!

I'll be interested to see what Paul (and perhaps Nick G or Leo?) thinks on this matter :)

Marco.

UV101
10-01-2011, 14:41
So Paul.............

Will you be selling your transformers seperately? :rolleyes:

Paul Hynes
10-01-2011, 16:03
Hi Marco,

Mark is right about the mechanical issues with loose windings. There is also an electrical problem with them too. The vibrating loose windings induce varying electrical interference signals, in sympathy with the mechanical vibrations, into adjacent moving wires due to mutual coupling. Think of it as the electrical analogy of mechanical vibrations, then it is easy to see how important it is to minimise the problem. The target is to get rid of noise and interference rather than allow the power supply to generate it’s own interference because something has not been manufactured to the required quality level.

Mike,

I believe it can be tricky to switch transformers on consistently without risking core saturation using solid-state AC switches (Inteligent Triacs) due to the fact that the voltage and current waveforms can be out of phase at the moment of energising the primary. Because of this, switching on at the zero voltage point on the mains waveform is not a good thing. It will create interference and cause current surges up to 40 times the steady state condition with core saturation problems. I am not up with current technology in the field of solid-state AC switches, and things may be different now with new knowledge improving control systems, but it is worth checking this out because I believe transformer core saturation is something that should be avoided as it stops the transformer behaving properly.

Ian,

I do sell the transformers separately for £100 plus insured carriage and packing of £15 in the UK.

Regards
Paul

UV101
10-01-2011, 23:06
What could I expect to hear using a better transformer as opposed to a larger VA std toroid configured as I suggested previous?

I ask purely because I am looking to be subjective. As I stated previously, I plan to mod further. At this point I could put the money toward a bearing upgrade or even towards another arm. I plan to machine a couple of hardwood bodies to try with the Denon and it will definitely end up with the expert stylus company who sorted another 103 for me about 20 years ago (My old boss at Ashtead TV is a friend Wyndham - I remember seeing his electrostats and some other incredible kit at his house too!) Sadly I managed to destroy that cart he sorted for me during a "cleaning incident" :steam:

I guess what i am saying is, at this moment in time, the PSU as it stands is clearly significantly better than is was. I will run 2 or 3 regs in the TT within the next few weeks, but where should I look to spend £ next?

MCRU
10-01-2011, 23:16
Quote:- but where should I look to spend £ next? __________________

Can the Achromat be bettered?

My own Technics journey does not involve a new bearing or platter, I have put an Oyaide mat and stabilizer on the stock platter and a new PSU which I just fitted tonight and now it's sounding as if it cannot really sound any better!

I took the blue horizon mat off and funnily with my new PSU it sounds better without it, the RB300 and Nagoaka MP150 seem well suited to each other.

I know its expensive but the Oyaide mat is quite exceptional on the stock platter.

Tomorrow I am going to get some oak cone feet made to try instead of or as well as the Isonoe feet.

Paul Hynes
11-01-2011, 00:20
Ian,

You would be blessed with no mechanical noise and, from past experience with a variety of audio equipment, the effect of removing a layer of electrical interference caused by winding rattle results in a more stable musical presentation. Also removing core saturation effects allows the music to breathe dynamically in other audio electronics, and I see no reason why this should not be the case with the SL1200 control circuitry.

One thing I have found with transformers is that you get what you pay for. For example, earlier this year I removed a set of these high performance transformers from my system power amplifiers to help a trade customer meet a show deadline with a power supply for the Virtue Audio 2 power amplifier. The temporary replacements were some of the “off the shelf” range generally available for a quarter of the price. The wife and sprog immediately asked what I had done to the sound system as it sounded edgy and aggressive particularly on complex dynamic material. The mechanical noise was very apparent particularly during quiet musical passages. Hell, it even annoyed me with no music playing. We all found it quite annoying to listen to music with these low cost transformers in place and even a month of burn-in failed to alleviate the problem. When the replacement high performance transformers I had ordered arrived, I installed them, and the sound system was back to the performance we had missed so much. The low cost transformers are now used as door stops, which is a reasonable application for them. For those interested in boating and yachting they would also make good boat anchors.

However I cannot tell you how much bang for your buck you will get using the high performance transformer compared to the other upgrades you are considering, as I haven’t tried a bearing or arm upgrade yet. The transformer is relatively inexpensive compared to the other upgrades you are considering if cash flow is tight.

Regards
Paul

Mike_New
11-01-2011, 00:57
Hi Mark,

Cool, cheers - I get that :)

Aside from reduced noise in the listening environment, I was wondering how the advantages of hand-winding with transformers would impact on audio performance, and in what way? :cool:

I'm thinking here mainly of output transformers (these presumanbly shouldn't buzz as there is no voltage going through them, no?), rather than mains transformers.

Marco.

Marco,
In the past era of valve amplifiers, when there was nothing else! the better quality transfomers, both Mains and Output were often sealed and vacuum impregnated with oil or resin. This provides excellent insulation properties against short circuit windings and greatly improves the overall performance.
In fact as I write this I have on my desk a quality 7.5H choke made by Parmeko in the UK (do they still exist??) which is oil filled and sealed in a pressed steel package with ceramic terminal insulators! All this for a common inductance!!

The problem today is that many of the so called high quality Mains and output Tranny’s are not offered in vacuum oil filled versions simply because of the cost. This is why IMO people are having problems with output tranny’s that are burning out due to the higher voltages that are being use on the output valve anodes these days.

Mike_New
11-01-2011, 01:41
Hi Marco,

Mike,

I believe it can be tricky to switch transformers on consistently without risking core saturation using solid-state AC switches (Inteligent Triacs) due to the fact that the voltage and current waveforms can be out of phase at the moment of energising the primary. Because of this, switching on at the zero voltage point on the mains waveform is not a good thing. It will create interference and cause current surges up to 40 times the steady state condition with core saturation problems. I am not up with current technology in the field of solid-state AC switches, and things may be different now with new knowledge improving control systems, but it is worth checking this out because I believe transformer core saturation is something that should be avoided as it stops the transformer behaving properly.

Ian,

I do sell the transformers separately for £100 plus insured carriage and packing of £15 in the UK.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul,
I was was not proposing to use a solid-state AC switch, as the primary switch, rather as the bipass switch across the current suppressor. This was in answer to Ian's suggestion of using a relay across the supressor because he did not like the idea of having a device in series with the primary.

But now you come to mention it, I believe there are now 'soft start switches' which act like the soft start function in AC inverter motor controls.

Ian,
I believe you would be better off buying one of Pauls super duper transformers. I may be tempted myself!!

UV101
11-01-2011, 09:47
believe me I'm tempted!!!

Having just shelled out for the TT and then immediately spent another £300 ish on the cartridge, stabiliser so I could "nude" it, mat, shell and PSU parts (so far!), I'm trying to work out where would be best to spend next!

I'm in total agreement with the points made by Paul, and of course I fully agree with the theory regarding transformer performance, however, I think for me personally at the moment the £ could be spent elsewhere with bigger gains.

Its definately on the list of will do's

If money were no object, I'd be ordering platter, bearings, PSU etc today! :lolsign:

Marco
11-01-2011, 20:26
Hi Mike,


Marco,
In the past era of valve amplifiers, when there was nothing else! the better quality transfomers, both Mains and Output were often sealed and vacuum impregnated with oil or resin. This provides excellent insulation properties against short circuit windings and greatly improves the overall performance.
In fact as I write this I have on my desk a quality 7.5H choke made by Parmeko in the UK (do they still exist??) which is oil filled and sealed in a pressed steel package with ceramic terminal insulators! All this for a common inductance!!

The problem today is that many of the so called high quality Mains and output Tranny’s are not offered in vacuum oil filled versions simply because of the cost. This is why IMO people are having problems with output tranny’s that are burning out due to the higher voltages that are being use on the output valve anodes these days.

Thanks for that - most interesting....


the better quality transfomers, both Mains and Output were often sealed and vacuum impregnated with oil or resin...

I believe that the output transformers on my valve amp are finished in that way :)

Sadly, quality is lacking in so many areas of audio equipment these days (compared to how things used to be), not just with transformers...

Marco.

UV101
11-01-2011, 21:44
Paul, another question. I've been reading through the SR5 thread (awesome! I really like the idea of the downward fireing LED!) and seen the pictures of the internals. Whats the capacitance of the smoothers? They look like the larger FC's near the rectifiers. I had always been lead to believe that larger smoothers were a good thing which is why I got 2 x 10,000uF in my supply (although clearly in underestimated the TX requirements! :doh::lolsign:) Thanks:cool:

CableMaker1
05-06-2011, 04:01
Paul Hynes designs the best regulation I've come across so was pleased to find he can supply the PR3 modules without the rectifier , this makes them about half size of the full AC input module and makes them a good fit inside the Technics.
The PR3DC-21 DC input modules are suited for the standard 1200/1210 platter , the PR3DCHD-21 are higher current and suited for both standard platter and Mike New platter.


Does anyone know if you can use Paul Hynes regulators that are mentioned above (or those used in the PS5) in conjunction with a Timestep PSU for an improvement over the stock Timestep?

Ammonite Acoustics
05-06-2011, 07:00
Any regulator needs input voltage headroom to provide a given stable output, so the answer to that question is 'no', unless the Timestep PSU's output voltage can be adjusted upwards. Paul Hynes will no doubt specify the exact amount of that voltage headroom requirement.

Paul Hynes
05-06-2011, 15:13
Hi Mike,

Shuggie is correct about the regulator dropout voltage. The DC input version of the PR3 has a dropout voltage of around 5 volts.

The standard Timestep power supply uses a mains transformer with 2 x 9 vac secondaries in series to give 18 vdc which, when rectified would give just over 25 vdc. The regulation factor of the mains transformer would add to this but to allow for the charging ripple waveform super-imposed on the main energy storage capacitor steady state dc voltage, and the fact that the mains voltage can vary, often falling during heavy loading during peak times of the day, The PR3 cannot just be substituted for the LM317 used in the Timestep supply. The Transformer would have to be changed for one with 12 vac secondaries, with preferably a higher VA rating, subject to space limitations within the case.

The other factor to consider is that the PR3DC module would not fit in the Timestep case without removing the Timestep PCB, which has the rectification and energy storage on board. In these circumstances you would need the AC input version of the PR3, which will not fit into the Timestep case anyway. You would be better off getting a higher quality transformer and using a PR3AC input module built into another, larger case, to give you a good upgrade in sound quality.

Regards
Paul

Mike_New
06-06-2011, 01:37
I might also add that those users of the KAB PS should be OK as this unit outputs over 30 volts, which is designed to be inserted across the input rectifier. Although in my judgement this is not the ideal location to connect the voltage (it should be after the rectifier bridge) The output of 30V or more should provide a 'stiff' enough source for the majority of regulator modules.

Paul Hynes
08-11-2011, 20:06
Hi Folks,

Well I finally found some time to finish fitting the internal regulator modules for the SL1200/SL1210 motor board. It was worth the effort but I am not going to say what the results are as MartinT will be fitting the regulators to his deck in the near future and I feel that it would be better to leave Martin to describe the resulting changes this upgrade makes to the musical presentation especially as, currently, his deck has the Mike New upgrades and the a much better Arm and cartridge than me.

Martin has kindly agreed to describe the upgrade from the point of view of a DIY enthusiast and post pictures of his progress. No doubt there will be a few PMs between us while the upgrade information is transferred. At the end of this we will hopefully have a well-documented path for DIY enthusiasts to follow.

For those who are interested in the internal regulator upgrades I have posted a photo on Photobucket and the link is :-

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/SR1MS3034.jpg

Regards
Paul

Reid Malenfant
08-11-2011, 20:16
I seem to remember Leo doing similar but with twin regulators, looks like you now have a dedicated unit to do the job of both Paul ;)

Nice work :)

leo
08-11-2011, 20:35
Looks great Paul! is that the new series regs? a nice tidy fit.

Clive
08-11-2011, 20:38
Sure looks neat! I fully expect it'll sound at least as good as it looks.

MartinT
08-11-2011, 20:50
The regulators look superb, as with all of Paul's modules. I have them safely in my hands and am awaiting some detailed PCB instructions before making a start.

leo
08-11-2011, 20:53
Using a top quality external psu like the SR3/5 is great mod worth the effort which to my ears wasn't subtle, I thought the added separate internal regs was the icing on the cake, it was enough to not want to go back to the stock internal version. Looks like this latest version takes things even further.
I bet going from a totally stock unit to external psu plus internal regs would be quite an ear opener :eyebrows:

leo
08-11-2011, 20:54
Look forward to see how you get on with these Martin

REXTON
08-11-2011, 21:23
omg omg omg (cue panic attack) :eek:, I was just thinking about these latest mods, do you think these will be available before Xmas. Whats the cost?? This could be a neat xmas pressie to ones self! :eyebrows: :cool::cool:

Paul Hynes
08-11-2011, 23:44
Hi Mark,

Leo said that fitting the two PR3 regulators securely in the transformer well was a bit of a fiddle so I designed a new board called TDR21, with two PR3 regulators on board, to fit the pitch of the transformer mounting pillars. The transformer mounting screws are then recycled to mount the new board securely.

Hi Leo,

The two mini regs consist of one series reg and one shunt reg. They do add some more to the performance. I have wired the regs in with fine silver wire too.

Hi Clive,

I should have sent this to Leo for wiring. He is much neater than me. Now I have got this out of the way I can get on with the phono stage. I will let you know when it is on the way.

Hi Martin,

It’s a little late to get the info organised and sent tonight and I need to crash soon. I will make a start on it tomorrow.

Hi Andrew,

Don’t Panic. Now I have boards for these regs I can make them to order. They are not going to break the bank. I will post some price info in the trade section tomorrow when I get a break.

Regards
Paul

MartinT
27-12-2011, 23:25
Here are my Paul Hynes internal regulator upgrades on an already heavily modified SL-1210. This phase 1 involved simply mounting the TDR-21 (twin PR3) regulator board inside the deck, setting one reg to exactly 21V and driving the entire PCB from the one supply. My external SR5-21 became an SR5-27 by adjusting it for 27V output. I went for phase 1 to start with because I wanted to evaluate just a single internal regulator compared with phase 2 which involves a further three regulators (2 x 9.4V & 5V), several components to remove and PCB tracks to cut.

Opening up the deck and preparing to mount the TDR-21 into the transformer well at top left. Beware those die cast posts! I used a self-tapper just a little too large and broke it inside the post :steam: I then attempted to drill it out and broke the drill bit in there :steam: :steam: Several hours later and I had the situation under control. I also spent some time removing the base and replacing the expired bulb inside the pop-up post with a white LED. This was more fiddly than I expected.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8399/8633223906_5283898d6f_b.jpg

Showing the TDR-21 wired in and running, generating 21V from the incoming 27V from the already adjusted SR5. Left meter showing SR5-27 output and right meter showing TDR21 motor drive (nearest reg) output. I've also set the other reg to 21V ready for phase 2. There is some settling time with all the Paul Hynes regs so the meters are showing a little drift, which I have now brought back in.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8540/8632116473_62f7737c46_b.jpg

Phase 1 fully wired and tested.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8099/8633223788_40c31c182d_b.jpg

That's it for now. There's not enough time to reinstall the arm and get eveything balanced up. I have a two-hour drive tomorrow morning so first impressions and phase 2 coming later in the week :)

The Grand Wazoo
28-12-2011, 01:08
I can't help thinking all that gubbins would be better off in a box away from the motor, Martin - is that do-able?

MartinT
28-12-2011, 01:22
It goes against the design principle of having the regulators as close to the active circuitry as possible, Chris. This keeps voltage drop to a minimum and 'stiffens' the voltage rails. The real villain of the piece, the transformer, is long gone and inside the SR5, where it belongs.

The Grand Wazoo
28-12-2011, 01:25
Ah, OK - fair enough then!

sq225917
28-12-2011, 08:36
You could use a reg with Kelvin sense then it wouldn't matter where they were as wire is compensated for in the reg itself.

Reid Malenfant
28-12-2011, 11:59
You could use a reg with Kelvin sense then it wouldn't matter where they were as wire is compensated for in the reg itself.
Indeed, this is exactly what was employed on various SMPS that I used to mess about with in my previous job ;)



Looking forwards to seeing how it all pans out Martin :)

REXTON
28-12-2011, 20:40
Here are my Paul Hynes internal regulator upgrades on an already heavily modified SL-1210. This phase 1 involved simply mounting the TDR-21 (twin PR3) regulator board inside the deck, setting one reg to exactly 21V and driving the entire PCB from the one supply. My external SR5-21 became an SR5-27 by adjusting it for 27V output. I went for phase 1 to start with because I wanted to evaluate just a single internal regulator compared with phase 2 which involves a further three regulators (2 x 9.4V & 5V), several components to remove and PCB tracks to cut.

Opening up the deck and preparing to mount the TDR-21 into the transformer well at top left. Beware those die cast posts! I used a self-tapper just a little too large and broke it inside the post :steam: I then attempted to drill it out and broke the drill bit in there :steam: :steam: Several hours later and I had the situation under control. I also spent some time removing the base and replacing the expired bulb inside the pop-up post with a white LED. This was more fiddly than I expected.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P1000495.jpg

Showing the TDR-21 wired in and running, generating 21V from the incoming 27V from the already adjusted SR5. Left meter showing SR5-27 output and right meter showing TDR21 motor drive (nearest reg) output. I've also set the other reg to 21V ready for phase 2. There is some settling time with all the Paul Hynes regs so the meters are showing a little drift, which I have now brought back in.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P1000497.jpg

Phase 1 fully wired and tested.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P1000498.jpg

That's it for now. There's not enough time to reinstall the arm and get eveything balanced up. I have a two-hour drive tomorrow morning so first impressions and phase 2 coming later in the week :)

Well done cant wait for the report.

MartinT
29-12-2011, 13:32
So, I've had time to listen to Phase 1 (two-stage, SR5-27 followed by TDR-21) and I'm rather surprised as I didn't really expect this upgrade to provide any more performance over the SR5-21 alone.

In fact, there is a further refinement across the board but particularly in the midrange area and the level of the acoustic of the recording versus the surroundings, or the vividness of the presentation if you prefer. Leo summed it up rather well in post #1 as "I did notice a further layer of background muck (best way to describe it) removed".

Next stage will involve cutting the 21V PCB track and using both sides of the TDR-21 regulator.

Reid Malenfant
29-12-2011, 13:35
Interesting test Martin, I didn't realise you were going to try it both ways. I'd expect the seperated regulators to make the more significant difference :)

Paul Hynes
29-12-2011, 14:12
Hi Martin,

Disregarding your Power Plant, which will be quieter than direct mains connection, you have doubled the supply line rejection of mains born interference and rectification artefacts of your composite Technics power supply, which would drop the background noise level being fed to the control and motor drive circuitry. This would clean up the low-level information presentation.

The rest of the regulator mods take this a little further although the law of diminishing returns will apply to a degree with this noise reduction, as other circuit noise sources will start to dominate. The additional individual stage regulators will show a more pronounced effect on the reduction of power supply inter-modulation around the circuit power supply distribution on the motor board between the various control circuit stages and the motor drive section. This inter-modulation clutter can be considered as a noise source. Reducing this will also clean up the presentation in quite interesting ways.

Regards
Paul

MartinT
29-12-2011, 20:51
I have now completed phase 2 - separate 21V power supplies to the motor control and motor drive circuitry.

Showing the cut PCB track to separate the motor control (left side) from the motor drive (right side) electronics. I used a test meter to confirm that the power rails were isolated from each other. A new power wire (seen at bottom) feeds 21V to the leg of C110 for motor drive.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8264/8633224040_74d3d2176a_b.jpg

Reassembled into the deck. The TDR-21 dual regulator pinout is (from the rear) 1. +27V in, 2. disused, 3. disused, 4. +21V out to Motor Control, 5. 0V to chassis earth, 6. +21V to Motor Drive.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8111/8633223792_265feef587_b.jpg

Listening to it, I am hearing interesting things. There is not much change to foreground instruments, but material in the background, deep back into the stage, is now more finely resolved. Tiny cues and things happening in the mix are now clear, what was a 'something' now becomes detectable as a cymbal, bell or other persussive sound. Overall background noise is very well suppressed and that sense of the music coming from a black background is now more pronounced.

Furthermore, and this is obvious even from another room, the Technics' metronomic pitch accuracy and timing gradually impresses on the mind as better than ever.

This is excellent, and confirms what Leo and Paul have discovered, which is that two-stage regulation and division of the noisy motor drive from the sensitive motor control is well worth implementing. The TDR-21 custom dual regulator module is a winner, all driven from the excellent SR5-27 outboard PSU. If you stop at this point, you will already have one hell of a good sounding deck.

I'm going to give it a couple of weeks now, to let everything bed in and to listen to a lot more music. Phase 3 will come later :)

Marco
29-12-2011, 21:05
Respect, and very interesting stuff, Martin! I look forward to reading more of your thoughts on these mods, in due course :)

Marco.

Mike_New
30-12-2011, 00:10
Hi Martin and also Paul,

Looking at the image of Martin’s PCB indicating where the track should be cut, alerts me to a possible improvement. Looking at where Martin has marked a line to separate the 21V supply into two separate supplies.
You will notice that there is another track on the RHS of the cut, which goes up to the motor coil assembly. This track supplies the common 21V to the three pairs of position-detect coils, which are stimulated by the ‘star wheel’ on the underside of the platter.

I believe that for the ultimate isolation from the drive motor, these coils should also be fed from the second 21V supply.
This can be achieved by cutting the track at an angle where the DR is in the word ‘DRIVE’ as shown in Martin’s image of the PCB.
This then leaves these coils to be supplied by the second 21V supply.

MartinT
30-12-2011, 00:54
I've been looking at it and the circuit diagram, Mike. Interesting, however it seems to me that those sense coils are leading into the motor drive chip IC101. I'm not sure how that IC would behave with two different power supplies to different parts of it (albeit through one of the coils - P1)?

Mike_New
30-12-2011, 01:27
Hi Martin,
This could be possible, but if you look at the 'Block Diagram' of the system the coil inputs really are just another set of circuits within an IC with a common supply voltage which powers the various internal active components as well as being the current source for the motor coils.
I suppose my idea could be accademic, since the active components of the position dectect coils and the oscillator and comparators are powered by the 21v motor source.

MartinT
30-12-2011, 05:58
I was thinking that common mode noise could be worse if the power rail for the coils was different from the power rail for the IC electronics. Paul will no doubt answer this when he takes a look.

REXTON
30-12-2011, 17:42
:popcorn: Lovin these posts! I honestly cant wait for 2012 to get started, mainly so things can get back to normal and then the 1210 can have its next phase of updates! ;)

Artifolk
30-12-2011, 20:16
I'm sitting comfortably waiting for the results... even though most of this electronics malarkey is going straight over the top:scratch:

Paul Hynes
31-12-2011, 12:20
Mike and Martin,

At this point I could not say what the effect of separating the coil supply from the AN6675 supply would be, as I have not tried it. With systems like this, where details of the chip circuitry are not generally available, it is a difficult prediction to make from just a block diagram (which incidentally has errors on it). Some experimentation will be required to verify the results. I will look into it further once I have my current projects out of the way. It is not going to make any difference to the current internal regulator upgrades, as it would be an easy retrofit to add another regulator.

Regards
Paul

Pete
13-01-2012, 03:54
Bravo Martin!

I've fallen behind ;)

Now I need to order the TDR-21 custom dual regulator module from Paul.

I assume Paul provides info on what resistor must change on the SR5-21 to convert it to 27V output?

Cheers
Pete

MartinT
13-01-2012, 06:00
It's straightforward, Pete. Just open up the SR5 front panel (the end with the LED) and you will see an adjustable pot with a small screw on the PCB. Using a digital voltmeter, turn it until you get 27V.

With your system resolution, I think you'll find the mod very worthwhile.

Pete
14-01-2012, 03:01
It's straightforward, Pete. Just open up the SR5 front panel (the end with the LED) and you will see an adjustable pot with a small screw on the PCB. Using a digital voltmeter, turn it until you get 27V.

With your system resolution, I think you'll find the mod very worthwhile.

Indeed! But according to Paul I have to check my regulator because it may have older parts not rated high enough for the 27v output. Time to crack open the case on my DIY SR5.

Isn't this fun? :eyebrows:

Pete
14-01-2012, 18:58
Martin,

Good news. I do have the higher rated powersupply module!
TDR-21 here I come!

I built a DIY version of the SR5, so no LED :lol:

Now I need to get a higher voltage transformer... arghh... its always something.

Cheers,
Pete

MartinT
14-01-2012, 19:04
Nice one!

Ask Paul for advice on the transformer as he told me there are many inferior toroids around.

MartinT
18-01-2012, 19:30
Please see my further thoughts here, not wanting to double-post the same item. Take especial note of my new earthing arrangements, these are critical to get the best from the mods (and a happy find by dint of changing my armboard):

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=286285&postcount=76

REXTON
18-01-2012, 20:31
Martin,

1. Your describe your "earthing" setup as follows :-

"Earthing: rather than the original earthing arrangement where the deck was earthed via the arm's earth cable, the steel arm plate and into the deck at a different point from the PCB earth; the deck and arm are now split in two (insulated by the wood) and each is independently earthed back to the same earthing post on the phono preamp (the deck from that all-important lower-left PCB post), so true star earthing both inside and outside the turntable"

Is this the same earthing setup that is described in the second picture in your post http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=279735&postcount=89

2. Is this the recommended version of earthing the regulator mods from Paul or is this something that you have devised?

3. Have you implemented stage 3 of the regs yet and would the proposed superclock mod take into consideration and be designed around current regulator mods??

Andy

MartinT
18-01-2012, 20:53
Hi Andy

It's an extension to that picture (I fixed your broken link): I deviated from Paul's wiring recommendation by adhering to strict star earthing as much as I can accommodate it. So the negative return from the external SR5-27, one of the grounds from the TDR-21 (wire with green sleeve), and now a new green wire going out to my phono preamp, all go to that single ground post where the PCB tracks also return to.

Further, my arm is not earthed to another part of the deck, its earth cable also goes to the phono preamp earth post.

As for stage 3 (three further tertiary regs), that comes next. I haven't even thought as far as accommodating the Superclock, if it can be done, but I would naturally use another PH module to supply that with clean power.

REXTON
19-01-2012, 19:43
Thanks for the replies. I'll be buying the regs when they become available and when I've got my PSU from Paul. I'll have to get in contact with you if you dont mind with regards to helping me to earth my techie like you've done with yours. Toodle Pip :eek:

MartinT
19-01-2012, 19:54
No problem, Andy. Shout when you're ready.

REXTON
19-01-2012, 20:11
I've nearly finished my Garrard 301 restoration project which I started at Xmas so it might be sooner than you think. I just had a thought about adding an additional regulator for the potential superclock mod. What it be a good idea to do away with the pitch stabiliser altogether and use the space that it takes up to add more regulators?? I think I recollect seeing a simple mod where this can be achieved. I must admit I think the pitch stabiliser to be pretty pointless and if we intend to use a super accurate clock to stabilise everything why the hell do we need a pitch stabiliser polluting up the PCB???? :scratch::scratch:

MartinT
19-01-2012, 20:34
Well indeed, although a revised clock circuit shouldn't take up much room. However, don't get too excited about a Superclock just yet until Audiocom come back with a yes/no. Failing that, maybe a small crystal oven with either the original or a superior crystal.

REXTON
19-01-2012, 20:43
:popcorn:

Pete
21-01-2012, 13:40
Anyone hear from Paul lately? I asked him about transformer manufacturer suggestions for the TDR-21 but he has not responded in several days.

I think I am going to get a 250va 25vdc primaries transformer, either Avel Lindberg or Plitron toroidal, unless someone can steer me to a better choice. A bit overspeced, but I think that may yield some benefits, as a bit stiffer power supply is never a bad thing :)

MartinT
21-01-2012, 14:52
Parts Connexion in Canada have some nice Hammond toroids, I've used them before and they're very quiet.

Mike_New
21-01-2012, 22:23
I think Paul's philosophy concerning transformers for top rate DC power supplies, is that they need to be specialy designed to prevent inrush currents at switch-on causing saturation of the core. He offers his own very specially wound transformer which unfortunately is very heavy. I considered getting one but the postage to OZ was about the same as the cost of the tranny.

Pete
21-01-2012, 22:41
Mike

So what transformer did you go with?

Martin,
I have used AVELs and never had a noise issue so far, like the transformer humming.

Pete

Mike_New
21-01-2012, 23:15
Hi Pete,
At the current time I am still trying to decide what path to take.
At the moment I am still using a KAB would you believe; but I have changed the DC connection point to bypass the rectifier bridge, increased the size of the input cap on the PCB (effectively across the incoming DC line that ) and doubled the size of C3, the main 21V DC cap. This has provided me with what I consider to be a moderately decent PS. However I really must bite the bullet and build a much impoved supply if I can locate a local quality torroidal transfomer. The problem as Paul indicated some time ago, a lot of these components although they may be indicated as being of high quality local manufacture, actually come from that large country next to Taiwan

I should also mention that I have replaced the KAB connection lead with far more substantial quality wiring and a better plug/socket.

Paul Hynes
22-01-2012, 12:40
Hi Pete,

Sorry for the tardy reply. I am very busy at present catching up will all the production delays through December into the New Year for various weather issues (no transit of incoming or outgoing goods and loss of mains power during gales up to hurricane force), holidays and the occasional virus attack (yes we get them out here too). Aside from all the catch up effort my e-mail inbox is overflowing with a much larger than usual influx of enquiries both technical and sales, oh and the trading figures for the end of January Tax assessment have taken a few days to deal with. Expect delays with everything for a while.

A 250VA 25vac transformer will work.

Re the transformer I use, these are a special build and custom made in small quantities to my specification for each application. Sorry this is costly but there is no way around this for high quality transformers in a relatively small market. I would not have these transformers made if there were no benefits to sound quality. Added to the transformer cost is the high cost of overseas insured and tracked shipping via fast air services.

I have not used AVEL transformers for a long time or Plitron transformers at all so cannot comment on their abilities.

Regards
Paul

MartinT
22-01-2012, 13:57
inbox is overflowing with a much larger than usual influx of enquiries both technical

Sorry :o

Paul Hynes
22-01-2012, 14:07
No need to be sorry Martin, most of the e-mail is from abroad and nothing to do with Technics power supplies.

Regards
Paul

MartinT
24-01-2012, 18:03
I'm knee-deep in the phase 3 regulator upgrades. More later...

REXTON
24-01-2012, 19:10
I'm knee-deep in the phase 3 regulator upgrades. More later...

Fantastic. Once again, cant wait for your update.

MartinT
24-01-2012, 20:46
Reminder: phase 2 involved splitting the motor control electronics from the motor drive and feeding each with a separate 21V supply from the Paul Hynes TDR-21 dual regulator, itself fed from an SR5-27. Phase 3 feeds a clean 5V to IC302 (4011 CMOS quad NAND gates performing clocking duties) and 9.4V to IC301 (AN6682 pitch control).

Assuming phase 2 is already done, preparation involves removing the main PCB and bearing and performing the following mods:
- remove D301 and R304 to isolate the 5V supply
- cut the track leading to pin 9 of IC301 to isolate the 9.4V supply
- solder two wires to D301 holes to provide 5V and return
- solder wire to pin 9 of IC301 for 9.4V (underside of board)
Now the main PCB and bearing can be carefully reassembled into the deck.

I mounted the two mini-regulators using plastic posts as shown in the photo (9.4V top-left, 5V top-right). Both are fed 21V from the motor control (top) regulator of the TDR-21, leaving the lower motor drive 21V for that duty alone. I took the 9.4V regulator return to the main star earth (bottom left post). However, Paul advised connecting the 5V regulator return to D301 anode because this needs to be a tight loop, which is why this reg is not star earthed. Finally, the 9.4V +ve and 5V twisted +ve/return wires were soldered to the regulator outputs.

It's a little fiddly keeping it all neat while leaving enough wire to first get the main PCB back in position and then the regulator PCBs snapped into place and I dressed the wires as best I could, taking care not to allow anything to foul the underside of the platter.

Final testing involved switching it all on and checking that both 21V rails, 9.4V and 5V were all present. Finally, I put the platter back on and tested both speeds with a strobe disc just to ensure that all was well with the drive electronics. Everything is running perfectly and I'm listening to it now.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8248/8633246538_0e815d8717_b.jpg

REXTON
24-01-2012, 21:26
you must do at least 12 hours of listening now and report back tomorrow morning with a 1000 essay on the changes you can hear. :D

Pete
25-01-2012, 01:40
you must do at least 12 hours of listening now and report back tomorrow morning with a 1000 essay on the changes you can hear. :D

Then reverse the mods going back to phase 2, just to double check the differences you think you heard with phase 3. Then redo phase 3, and check again :lol:

Pete
25-01-2012, 01:48
Martin,

Seriously, great job milking every drop from this motor circuit.....

BTW, what wire did you use for hooking up all the circuits?

Cheers,
Pete

MartinT
25-01-2012, 06:58
you must do at least 12 hours of listening now and report back tomorrow morning with a 1000 essay on the changes you can hear. :D

:lol: Actually, I only needed about one minute, the changes are that easy to hear. More later today when I get home.

MartinT
25-01-2012, 07:06
BTW, what wire did you use for hooking up all the circuits?

The wire is Paul Hynes Fine Silver, the same as used for my external feed from the SR5 (different gauge). If you order the regs from Paul, I strongly advise that you also order about 0.5m of this stuff plus sleeving as it makes everything consistent and it solders easily enough using Shark 5.5% silver solder.

Marco
25-01-2012, 10:06
Nice one, Martin. Look forward to finding out what you think! :)

Incidentally, now that you've done the regulator mods, can the whole shebang be connected to an SR7EHD (to take advantage of that massive tranny inside it, and its other benefits), or will it only work with your SR5?

If it's the former, then you've still got some fun to come, and goodness knows what that combination will do!! :eek: :D

Marco.

MartinT
25-01-2012, 11:51
There are two issues, Marco: different connector and different voltage. Both can be overcome by using an adapter and adjusting the voltage inside the SR7 to 27V - and remembering to adjust it back again before you connect it to your deck :eek:

Marco
25-01-2012, 12:01
So the ultimate is for you to get an SR7, and make the necessary adjustments?

If you rate the final regulator mods (which I'm sure you do), I think that will be the route I'll go: SR7 (suitably adjusted), plus all the 'gubbins' you've just installed inside your T/T.

That'll be a wee job for Anthony! :D

Marco.

MartinT
25-01-2012, 12:04
So the ultimate is for you to get an SR7, and make the necessary adjustments?

I'm just not sure if the SR7 will have any more impact through the TDR21 or if it will once more lower the noise floor and output impedance over the SR5. Perhaps Paul could comment?


That'll be a wee job for Anthony!

I'm sure he'll love it :eek:

Paul Hynes
25-01-2012, 14:48
Hi Martin,

You will hear an improvement with the SR7EHD compared to your SR5. It’s not just the transformer that has been increased in size. The rectification has been altered to a balanced arrangement allowing the transformer secondary to retain it’s ground reference even when the rectifiers are not conducting. The energy storage capacitor bank has been increased and the supply rail for the output stage control circuitry has been improved.

Marco heard a substantial improvement with the SR7 over the SR5. You should hear this upgrade with your power supply even though the internal regulators have been applied. It might not be to the same degree but it will be significant.

Regards
Paul

MartinT
25-01-2012, 15:05
Ok, thanks Paul. I'll be coming to you at some point for a price :eek:

REXTON
25-01-2012, 19:21
Ok, thanks Paul. I'll be coming to you at some point for a price :eek:

Martin,

Why not go for what I'm getting the SR7EHD-XL! You'll need to speak to Paul with regards to what you get for your money. :eyebrows:

PS Paul, now that Martin has installed all these regs can you PM me the price for a complete set??

synsei
25-01-2012, 19:40
This thread is a fascinating read chaps and even though much of the technical stuff is beyond my ken, I applaud you all for your dedication and ingenuity. I will continue to follow your adventures with intense interest, especially as I now have an SL1210 to feed :D

MartinT
25-01-2012, 20:14
What these final upgrades have brought to the table builds upon the already excellent sound from the phase 2 split 21V upgrades previously detailed. I had not expected, at this stage, to hear anything much different since there is already a lot of regulation going on and, by inference, noise reduction in the phase 2 mods.

What I immediately noticed were two effects: a lifting and resolving of previously buried detail and, related to this, a further lowering of the noise floor and general hash around the three-dimensional soundstage.

A few examples from my listening: Joan Armatrading (eponymous) starts with Down to Zero, and in there is a buried cymbal. I've always heard it, but now I can hear its shimmer and the way it is struck. Gordon Giltrap's Fear of the Dark sounds superbly detailed and clean despite getting busy in Fast Approaching. The leading edge of his guitar has fantastic attack. In Supertramp's Crime of the Century, Dreamer features an incredibly vivid piano and very front-of-stage voice in a mesmerising spacial presentation. The intro to ZZ Top's Eliminator, Gimme All Your Lovin, features a very dry bass drum with real shape to it. Norah Jones' album Not Too Late features a song, Sinkin' Soon, with her incredibly palpable voice and harmony, as well as gorgeous raspy synth sax (I guess). Yello's Flag features a track, Tied Up, with such a wealth of detail as to assault the senses. Out of this mix come bongos with amazing attack and dynamics.

In my thought experiment about what is going on here, I can only surmise that the impact of these mods, particularly affecting the clocking and pitch regulation circuits, is to feed the motor with an ultra-clean drive waveform lacking in noise components. This would give a reduction in vibration of the motor (even at its low speed) and rotational noise (or pitch micro-imperfections, if you prefer). These are just my ideas and I would entertain any other thoughts on why these particular regulators should make such a difference.

We are into exotic territory here and the mods are not for the faint of heart, although they will present few problems to anyone with electronics experience. Very highly recommended if you want pretty much the best vinyl reproduction you can lay hands on for reasonable money - provided you have performed all the other mods I have so far accumulated, and a system capable of high resolving power.

synsei
25-01-2012, 20:40
Martin, what is the total cost of the mods you have fitted please? I'd also be interested to learn how much it would cost to have the work done as they are beyond my capabilities ;)

Dingdong
25-01-2012, 20:48
I'd be tempted to have a look at the Vantage Audio mods if I were you Dave. They seem good value to me.
Or just flog it and get an SP-10;)

synsei
25-01-2012, 20:59
I was thinking of a combination of the regs mods represented on this thread and the VA Platter, bearing and feet ;)

Dingdong
25-01-2012, 21:04
Personally I'd do the VA feet, bearing and get a good mat for it. Then maybe think about the psu.
Or flog it and get an SP-10;)

synsei
25-01-2012, 21:14
Mark, you wouldn't be wanting me to buy and SP10 by any chance, would you? :lol:

Dingdong
25-01-2012, 21:17
Moi? No.

Just think how pretty that series 3 would look mounted on a custom plinth with an SP-10 though. It would be a thing of beauty.

MartinT
25-01-2012, 21:23
Martin, what is the total cost of the mods you have fitted please?

I'll leave this to Paul to answer as I am unsure of his up to date pricing. The PH units I have are:

- SR5-27 external PSU
- TDR-21 dual 21V reg module
- 9V4 series reg mini module
- 5V shunt reg mini module
- Fine silver braided DC cable

HOWEVER - all my other mods are relevant, too. It gets expensive relative to the base cost of the deck, but that's missing the point. It performs to the equivalent of a far higher price point.

- Dynavector DV507-II arm
- Ebony armboard
- Funk Firm platter and Achromat
- Mike New bearing and base plate
- Isonoe feet
- Bruil weight

synsei
25-01-2012, 21:42
Thanks a lot Martin. I realise that the improvements are due to an accumulation of upgrades but I'm keen to choose a different and slightly more cost effective path. I'm thinking of employing the Vantage Audio mods together with an external PS and the regs mods you have been so diligently fitting and reviewing. Not the accepted upgrade path perhaps, but cashflow dictates necessity and I feel it would be both interesting and educational to pursue the alternatives ;)

Dingdong
25-01-2012, 21:57
You could always try my Technics upgrade path Dave.

Okay, I'll get me coat.

Marco
25-01-2012, 22:07
Or flog it and get an SP-10...

And end up with something (sonically) worse ;)

When you've heard just how good Martin T's or my deck sounds, SP10's barely raise a 'semi'! :eyebrows:

Marco.

MartinT
25-01-2012, 22:08
I'm thinking of employing the Vantage Audio mods together with an external PS and the regs mods you have been so diligently fitting and reviewing.

Yup, sounds like a good path to me, and plenty of people have written positively about the Vantage mods. Go for it, and keep us informed of your progress.

synsei
25-01-2012, 22:08
You could always try my Technics upgrade path Dave.

Okay, I'll get me coat

:lol:

Dingdong
25-01-2012, 22:11
And end up with something (sonically) worse ;)

Marco.


I know which one I prefer. Can you guess which one it is?;)

synsei
25-01-2012, 22:15
And end up with something (sonically) worse ;)

Marco.

With respect Marco you don't know that for sure. The SP10 is a superb deck and having heard Mark's unmodified specimen in his system I am deeply impressed by its grip and outstanding resolution of dynamics. I feel that if the same mod development idiom was deployed for the SP10 it is likely to eclipse the results achieved by the SL significantly... :eyebrows:

Why, in your opinion, would the Techy SP10 not respond favourably to the type of mods available for the SL series, not including feet made out of materiel gleaned from the Ark Of The Covenant of course? :D

Marco
25-01-2012, 22:24
Hi Dave,


With respect Marco you don't know that for sure.

It depends what you mean by "sure". I've heard about 7 different SP10s in the last 3 three years, most in direct comparison to my own T/T in the same system, which very good indeed, but none that I'd swap my modded Techy for.

That's about as "sure" as I need to be ;)

Do you honestly think that if I seriously thought that an SP10 was better, I'd not have gone out and bought one? You should know me by now, Dave - I don't do compromises...

I've not heard a 'tweaked' SP10, which I'm sure would be superb, but in my experience, the SP10's reputation far exceeds its actual ability (in stock from).

There... Now it's time to get MY coat!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Dingdong
25-01-2012, 22:29
I don't really plan to do much in the way of upgrading the SP-10. get a decent plinth on it and play some music is the plan.

Anyhow, back to 1210 mods.

I think the psu mods have been taken just about as far as they can go now with the internal regs and a decent psu.
The bearing upgrades seem to be quite good.

The only path I can see at the moment is maybe to stick a heavy platter on it and alter the drive to suit it. I'll have to have a read up on the circuit one day. There is a good chance that it might be limited by the ic's in the circuit.

synsei
25-01-2012, 22:29
I understand that you are comfortable with your lot Marco, but I am intrigued as to whether the SP10 would benefit as much or perhaps more from some of the amazing mods that have been developed for the SL series on these pages ;)

Marco
25-01-2012, 22:31
I know which one I prefer. Can you guess which one it is?;)

How can you possibly say that, when you haven't heard a modded Techy at the level mine (or Martin's) is at? At least I'm speaking from experience of having heard both it and MANY very good SP10s!!

If you want to hold a T/T bake-off at yours or mine, Mark, I'm well up for it, mate... Or we can do it at Scalford? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco
25-01-2012, 22:33
I understand that you are comfortable with your lot Marco, but I am intrigued as to whether the SP10 would benefit as much or perhaps more from some of the amazing mods that have been developed for the SL series on these pages ;)

Yes, but I don't see anyone doing it, do you? Therefore, until it's been done, and we get to hear a suitably modded example, and compare it to a Techy, like Martin's or mine, it's simply all 'pie in the sky'! :)

Marco.

synsei
25-01-2012, 22:37
That's my point, no one is doing it, hence my post suggesting that it might be worth a go. The quality of the raw materials would suggest the results might be impressive especially as in standard form the SP10 outguns a standard SL by quite a wide margin... :ner: ;)

Marco
25-01-2012, 22:45
Sure, I totally agree. But at the moment, the only benchmark we have with an SP10 is that which the stock model equals, therefore at the moment that's all we can judge.

The problem I have is that, even though it's been reported at length just how good an SL-1200/1210 gets when it's been taken to the level of the likes of Martin's and mine, I can still detect more than a faint whiff of disbelief and smugness from the detractors who can't (or won't) accept that an old 'DJ deck' could ever be better than the 'mighty SP10'....

And there's nothing I enjoy more than bursting that particular bubble!! ;)

Marco.

REXTON
25-01-2012, 22:49
The problem I have is that, even though it's been reported at length just how good an SL-1200/1210 gets when it's been taken to the level of the likes of Martin's and mine, I can still detect more than a faint whiff of disbelief and smugness from the detractors who can't (or won't) accept that an old 'DJ deck' could ever be better than the 'mighty SP10'....

And there's nothing I enjoy more than bursting that particular bubble!! ;)

Marco.

Marco,

There is only one 'um, and thats f_ck 'um! Let them believe what they want. I nearly bought an sp10 best thing I ever did spending 90 quid, yep, 90 quid on my 1210, then several thousand getting it to the position its in now :eek:

Dingdong
25-01-2012, 22:52
How can you possibly say that, when you haven't heard a modded Techy at the level mine (or Martin's) is at? At least I'm speaking from experience of having heard both it and MANY very good SP10s!!

If you want to hold a T/T bake-off at yours or mine, Mark, I'm well up for it, mate... Or we can do it at Scalford? :eyebrows:

Marco.

I'd be interested to hear an upgraded Sl-12xx at Scalford. If I get a plinth sorted for my SP-10 it will be in our room along with Dave's 1210. I can't see us doing comparisons, though. I'm quite keen to show the sound we've achieved with a modest budget in our system.

Maybe it's a good idea for the future to have a turntable bake-off. I'm always up for a comparison. It'd be nice to hear different stuff, with different presentations.

MartinT
25-01-2012, 22:54
Mark - my deck will be at Scalford.

synsei
25-01-2012, 22:56
I might have been dubious about such claims before but I'm not anymore, hence why I have traded up to a 1210 from my TD160. I'm certainly not denigrating the good work done by so many to bring the humble SL out of the closet and into the hallowed halls of the HiFi Gods equivalent of Mount Olympus, the modded Sl's of all incarnations deserve the plaudits they get. I just think it is a shame that some of the love and attention lavished on the SL family isn't filtering up and down the chain to other laudable Technics TT's as well as some of the superb classic DD TT's from other manufacturers... :cool:

We do need to avoid exuding a sense of elitism about the whole Technics scene though and just concentrate on letting the turntable do the talking. If people like what they hear then the choice will be obvious to them... ;)

NRG
25-01-2012, 23:01
Mods to the SP-10 have been done, there where a couple of HFW articles many years back detailing regulator and PSU mods for the deck plus theres a few owners who have completley re-designed the electronics :eek: this is primarily DIY stuff though....however, there's at least one UK company who can supply an upgraded or replacement PSU.

The trouble with the SP-10 is its age. You can replace 'lytic caps etc but the decks also need proper electrical adjustment and setup with attention paid to cleaning and oiling of the bearing. When setup correctly they are impressive, when not their age works against them.

Dingdong
25-01-2012, 23:02
I'll be popping by to have a listen to it Martin.

Marco
25-01-2012, 23:05
Marco,

There is only one 'um, and thats f_ck 'um! Let them believe what they want. I nearly bought an sp10 best thing I ever did spending 90 quid, yep, 90 quid on my 1210, then several thousand getting it to the position its in now...


Andrew, the last SP10 I heard was Speedy Steve's, when I was down at his place having my ebony armboard fitted last month.

Steve's SP10 is superb - it's in a lovely plinth, is fitted with a gorgeous FR64 tonearm and SPU Silver Meister, and he runs it through an UBER-REVEALING horn-based system (you've all seen the pictures in the DIY room).

Obviously, when the armboard had been fitted, we had a listen to my T/T in his system, after listening to Steve's SP10 up until that point, so I could ascertain what the armboard was doing.

He'll tell you himself what happened, but let's just say that we both agreed that superb as his T/T was, no-one would be rushing out to buy an SP10, after hearing how good my modded SL-1210 sounded ;)

I'm sure that the results were exactly the same when Martin's T/T was put into Steve's system, after his ebony armboard had been fitted. I'm afraid the fact is that unless you've taken part in these sort of comparisons, and heard the results for yourself, you simply don't have a clue.

Marco.

synsei
25-01-2012, 23:06
Mods to the SP-10 have been done, there where a couple of HFW articles many years back detailing regulator and PSU mods for the deck plus theres a few owners who have completley re-designed the electronics :eek: this is primarily DIY stuff though....however, there's at least one UK company who can supply an upgraded or replacement PSU.

The trouble with the SP-10 is its age. You can replace 'lytic caps etc but the decks also need proper electrical adjustment and setup with attention paid to cleaning and oiling of the bearing. When setup correctly they are impressive, when not their age works against them.

Thanks for that Neal. Granted, availability is an issue, after all there are many thousands of SL's out there in the wild and probably far fewer SP10's, in which case I suppose it comes down to simple economics regarding mods :rolleyes:

NRG
25-01-2012, 23:08
Thanks for that Neal. Granted, availability is an issue, after all there are many thousands of SL's out there in the wild and probably a lot less SP10's, in which case I suppose it comes down to simple economics regarding mods :rolleyes:

Yes, and in the end getting a good return from modding is probably best performed on the SL...

Marco
25-01-2012, 23:15
The trouble with the SP-10 is its age. You can replace 'lytic caps etc but the decks also need proper electrical adjustment and setup with attention paid to cleaning and oiling of the bearing. When setup correctly they are impressive, when not their age works against them.

Completely agree, Neal!

And the trouble is, how do you know for sure beyond any doubt that a correctly set-up/fettled one today is as good as it would have been when brand new, many years ago, when it left the Panasonic factory....?

There's no way of ever *really* knowing that, short of taking a journey in a time machine.

Marco.

synsei
25-01-2012, 23:16
I am looking forward to taking my SL through its various mods as I am to hearing Marco's SL at Scalford. Marco you are absolutely right, it is impossible to come to any conclusions until one has heard a Techy that has had loads 'o' love lavished on it so I await Scalford with baited testicles... :lol:

synsei
25-01-2012, 23:18
Completely agree, Neal!

And the trouble is, how do you know for sure beyond any doubt that a correctly set-up/fettled one today is as good as it would have been when brand new, many years ago, when it left the Panasonic factory....?

There's no way of ever *really* knowing that, short of taking a journey in a time machine.

Marco.

To be fair, the same goes for any classic TT, even an SL ;)

Marco
25-01-2012, 23:21
Nope, not when it was bought brand new three and a half years ago (like mine)! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Mike_New
25-01-2012, 23:22
The basic unknown in the SP10 and a very very important one, is the condition of the bearing. I have had a number of people from around the globe ask if I can produce a bearing for the SP10 (and the other models) of the same High Precision quality as the one I offer for the SL1200 series.
Unfortunately this is not a very practical proposition due to the design of the system.
So in reality anyone contemplating an SP10, whilst they may have been regarded as a superb TT in their day; must put out up with all of it's shortcomings which normal wear would produce.

And in any TurnTable the only thing that is going to seriously wear over time is the bearing. The tone arm of course will also wear but this can be replaced as many have done.

Further I am pretty sure that the SP10 has a less capable speed and control circuitry than is available in the SL1200 series.

NRG
25-01-2012, 23:25
Completely agree, Neal!

And the trouble is, how do you know for sure beyond any doubt that a correctly set-up/fettled one today is as good as it would have been when brand new, when it originally left the Panasonic factory....?

There's no way of ever *really* knowing that, short of taking a journey in a time machine.

Marco.

True...but the setup and performance information is very well detailed in the service manual so you can certainly compare the phase timing, wave forms and voltages to whats required and conclude if the deck is in spec. or not. I suspect the majority are not.

Marco
25-01-2012, 23:28
Same here. But we also know that there are other things which age (and extensive use/abuse in studios) over many years affects - and not all of it can be measured....

Mike hits the nail on the head, here:


The basic unknown in the SP10 and a very very important one, is the condition of the bearing.

I have had a number of people from around the globe ask if I can produce a bearing for the SP10 (and the other models) of the same High Precision quality as the one I offer for the SL1200 series.
Unfortunately this is not a very practical proposition due to the design of the system.

So in reality anyone contemplating an SP10, whilst they may have been regarded as a superb TT in their day; must put out up with all of it's shortcomings which normal wear would produce.


Indeed! Wear which simply isn't there on, say, a three and a half year old T/T like mine, with new (as opposed to 40-year old) electronics and one of your superb bearings... ;)

Marco.

NRG
25-01-2012, 23:31
The basic unknown in the SP10 and a very very important one, is the condition of the bearing. I have had a number of people from around the globe ask if I can produce a bearing for the SP10 (and the other models) of the same High Precision quality as the one I offer for the SL1200 series.
Unfortunately this is not a very practical proposition due to the design of the system.
So in reality anyone contemplating an SP10, whilst they may have been regarded as a superb TT in their day; must put out up with all of it's shortcomings which normal wear would produce.

And in any TurnTable the only thing that is going to seriously wear over time is the bearing. The tone arm of course will also wear but this can be replaced as many have done.

Further I am pretty sure that the SP10 has a less capable speed and control circuitry than is available in the SL1200 series.

Not sure I agree about the speed control, if its setup correctly its rock solid. There's a plot of mine over on the PFM speed analysis thread and I don't think you'll find it lacking.

The bearing yes I agree with, if its not been correctly maintained it will be worn and the deck worthless, however, I've not heard reports of a maintained one failing....yet ;) (now somebody will post a link :) )

Marco
25-01-2012, 23:33
Hi Mike,


Further I am pretty sure that the SP10 has a less capable speed and control circuitry than is available in the SL1200 series.


Most interesting... Care to expand on that? :)

Marco.

Marco
26-01-2012, 00:02
We do need to avoid exuding a sense of elitism about the whole Technics scene though and just concentrate on letting the turntable do the talking. If people like what they hear then the choice will be obvious to them...

Absolutely, but it's when people haven't heard what they need to hear, in order to hold a valid opinion, appear to have formed firm conclusions on the matter, regardless, which scuppers that laudable notion! ;)

Anyway, Dave, you're more than welcome to come and hear my T/T or Martin's at Scalford. It'll be nice to meet you and buy you a few beers :cool:

Marco.

synsei
26-01-2012, 00:09
Cheers Marco, likewise :) I doubt I will have been able to do too much to my 1210 before Scalford however, although a set of VA feet may fall into my lap before then :D

Mike_New
26-01-2012, 00:56
Marco,
You should all know that today is OZ day, the day Mr. Cook lost his way and discovered Australia!! And that the best of our forefathers came from the worst of English jails.

I have just had a look at the circuit diagrams for the SP10 and I must admit I did not realize they were so extensive. It would seem that the control circuitry should certainly be capable of decent control of the motor/platter and it does have more coils on the stator which would potentially enable more smooth rotation.
However I would venture to sugest that the SL1200 series does have a more refined control circuitry than the SP10.

I cannot see from a copy of the manual that I have, exactly what form the bearing takes.
It does look as though a replacement could be possible but I would have to get hold of the actual motor assembly myself.
If there is anyone out there that has an old and useless SP10 or one which does have just a defunct bearing, I would be happy to further investigate the possibility of perhaps producing a replacement bearing for the SP10 if there are enough takers.

However looking at the considerable amount of discreet circuitry on the four or five PCBs would make me aware, as Marco indicated that a lot of the caps would possibly need replacement.
It is not difficult to see that the genesis of the SL1200s lay in the SP10 design.
Excepting that the SL1200s were produced with mass production in mind at a much lower retail cost.

synsei
26-01-2012, 01:15
That's very interesting Mike and perhaps there's life in the old girl yet, eh?

I take onboard what has been said in relation to the SP10, in particular that the average age of the SP is going to be greater than that of the SL and consequently the wear issue is going to be greater. What needs to be factored in here however is that the SP10 exhibits battleship build quality and I believe that if it is handled correctly a well modded SP10 could become the next Technics superdeck ;)

Marco
26-01-2012, 01:28
I agree, Dave, and have no problem at all with that theory.

However, we await someone turning that theory into a reality - and it *only* becomes such when said SP10 outperforms a modded SL-1210 at the level of the likes of Martin's or mine (i.e. about the best that the beast can get).

Somehow, I think we'll be waiting a while for that to happen.... Bring it on, though! ;)

Yup, an insightful post, Mike, as usual :)

Marco.

synsei
26-01-2012, 01:36
I agree, Dave, and have no problem at all with that theory.

However, we await someone turning that theory into a reality - and it *only* becomes such when said SP10 outperforms a modded SL-1210 at the level of the likes of Martin's or mine (i.e. about the best that the beast can get).

Somehow, I think we'll be waiting a while for that to happen.... Bring it on, though! ;)

Yup, an insightful post, Mike, as usual :)

Marco.

I wish I had the technical nouse to do so because I think it would be an enjoyable project :D

Vantage supply several upgrades for the SP10 so they may be a decent springboard to begin the odyssey...

Marco
26-01-2012, 01:43
Indeed. I also suspect that Mr Cawley could provide a valid sample of such a beast...

In any case, I'd welcome with open arms putting my T/T up against an uber-upgraded SP10. Let's face it, I couldn't lose, because if it won, I'd simply buy one like it and sell my SL-1210 - simples!

It's important to bear in mind that the reason why I don't own an SP10, and have so far not been tempted to buy one, is because to my ears it's not better than what I've got. However, if that situation were to change, then you can bet your boots that I'd do something about it, pronto!

Remember, I don't do compromises ;)

Marco.

synsei
26-01-2012, 01:55
Remember, I don't do compromises ;)

Yup, I know that. I'm looking forward to hearing your TT, it'll give me a baseline to aim for :D

I'm not in a position to buy some of the upgrades you guys have fitted to your 1210's but I am looking forward to trailblazing my own path using other mods. It will be interesting to hear what can be achieved on my particular journey. I'm keen to try the regs mods in combination with a slightly less pricey PS. Who knows, I may even bite the bullet and attempt to build my own based on an existing design. One things for sure, I'll always have the insightful expertise of some of the boffins on AoS to draw from :D

MartinT
26-01-2012, 06:45
We do need to avoid exuding a sense of elitism about the whole Technics scene though and just concentrate on letting the turntable do the talking. If people like what they hear then the choice will be obvious to them... ;)

Absolutely, Dave. I'm happy to let my deck do the talking. Those who hear it usually stop talking... :)

chris@panteg
26-01-2012, 10:17
I know which one I prefer. Can you guess which one it is?;)

SP10 for me too ! Remember if the 1200 can be elevated so high , the SP10 has a superior motor which can also be tweaked quite a bit ! The 1200 is always playing catch up:eyebrows:

Just a thought about the Vantage mods , I suggest getting the bearing , PSU and platter as complete solution ! Rather than mix and match .

Dingdong
26-01-2012, 10:36
SP10 for me too ! Remember if the 1200 can be elevated so high , the SP10 has a superior motor which can also be tweaked quite a bit ! The 1200 is always playing catch up:eyebrows:

Just a thought about the Vantage mods , I suggest getting the bearing , PSU and platter as complete solution ! Rather than mix and match .


Hello Chris,

Maybe I'll start a thread up on what to do with an SP-10 rather than go off topis with this thread. I'd be interested to hear what you have done with yours. I don't really want to get into a fight over which Teccy is the best. I think, with any hifi component, it's down to personal preference.

MartinT
26-01-2012, 10:38
Yes, can we please keep this thread for 1210 regulator mods? By all means start a new thread to discuss the SP10 in more detail.

Marco
26-01-2012, 10:39
SP10 for me too !


Yes, perhaps based on what you've heard so far from a modified SL-1200/1210. Ever thought of entertaining the notion, Chris, that your opinion might change once you've had more experience of listening to the former, especially the best examples of the breed?

I refer you to what I wrote yesterday:


He'll ['he' being Speedy Steve] tell you himself what happened, but let's just say that we both agreed that superb as his T/T was, no-one would be rushing out to buy an SP10, after hearing how good my modded SL-1210 sounded

I'm sure that the results were exactly the same when Martin's T/T was put into Steve's system, after his ebony armboard had been fitted. I'm afraid the fact is that unless you've taken part in these sort of comparisons, and heard the results for yourself, you simply don't have a clue.


I suggest that you read, and most importantly digest, the bit in bold ;)


Remember if the 1200 can be elevated so high , the SP10 has a superior motor which can also be tweaked quite a bit ! The 1200 is always playing catch up:eyebrows:


Aye, "catch up" with a 40-year old antique!! :lol: :ner:

Marco.

chris@panteg
26-01-2012, 10:47
One small point Marco my old sweetie , the SP10 is over 40 of course but I just realised the 1200 is guess what ? 40 this year lol:st:)

Marco
26-01-2012, 10:49
How old are all those EMT's that everybody raves about?


Superb - once they've been properly set-up and fettled by an expert, much like an SP10, and again much like an SP10, you'd never know for sure whether it was performing optimally, as it did when new, the day it left the factory...

Like Mike and Neal said yesterday, we need to accept that with vintage T/Ts of any description, there is always the possibility that wear and tear, through age, could ultimately limit their performance, in a way which cannot be rectified, short of replacing key parts (such as bearings).

Marco

Marco
26-01-2012, 10:56
One small point Marco my old sweetie , the SP10 is over 40 of course but I just realised the 1200 is guess what ? 40 this year lol:st:)

LOL - indeed. But the point is that the SP10 was discontinued long before the SL-1200!

The latter were on sale up until last year, matey. Therefore, if you've bought a new one recently, or reasonably recently (like me) you're not running a 40-year old T/T (or even a 23-year old 1989 one, when SP10s were last produced), but a one year old, or in my case, three and a half year old one ;)

Marco.

REXTON
26-01-2012, 20:42
:offtopic: I'm not really interested in the SP10, I'd like to learn more about the internal regs thanks. ;)

Marco
26-01-2012, 20:43
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P1000507.jpg

Hi Martin,

Just to check something, matey... Is that green wire connected to the L/H post on the PCB the extra earth you fitted to kill hum after getting your ebony armboard? :)

Marco.

MartinT
26-01-2012, 22:59
Is that green wire connected to the L/H post on the PCB the extra earth you fitted to kill hum after getting your ebony

Yes, that's the one. It goes to the phono preamp earth post together with the arm's earth cable.

Marco
26-01-2012, 23:17
Cheers, dude. I might try it with mine, as when listening through headphones, there is a very faint hum that comes and goes when I move the arm from its rest onto a record, and back again. You don't notice it when listening externally.

I'll report back with the results :)

Marco.

BTH K10A
27-01-2012, 06:53
Superb - once they've been properly set-up and fettled by an expert, much like an SP10, and again much like an SP10, you'd never know for sure whether it was performing optimally, as it did when new, the day it left the factory...

Marco

The great thing about EMT's is that you can have a service done to bring them back to factory specs. :D

MartinT
27-01-2012, 07:27
The mini-regulators have run in nicely now and the deck continues to sound quite wonderful.

In case anyone has lost their way in this thread, my recent listening was summed up here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=288712#post288712. I am more than ever convinced that the benefits in sound quality are due to the improved purity of the drive waveform to the motor, reducing noise/vibration/harshness and audibly lowering the noise floor.

I am still in discussion with both Mark Bartlett of Audiocom and Paul Hynes about clock upgrading possibilities. If anything emerges I will keep you informed.

REXTON
27-01-2012, 10:42
In case anyone has lost their way in this thread, my recent listening was summed up here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=288712#post288712. I am more than ever convinced that the benefits in sound quality are due to the improved purity of the drive waveform to the motor, reducing noise/vibration/harshness and audibly lowering the noise floor.

I am still in discussion with both Mark Bartlett of Audiocom and Paul Hynes about clock upgrading possibilities. If anything emerges I will keep you informed.

Martin,

Thats excellent news. I want to say thanks to you and Paul for all your hard work pushing the 1210 to sonically better levels. :cool:

sq225917
27-01-2012, 12:38
£10 says Paul says it makes no difference and that Mark says he has a £500 solution for you. ;-)

REXTON
27-01-2012, 16:02
:laugh:

MartinT
27-01-2012, 17:46
£10 says Paul says it makes no difference and that Mark says he has a £500 solution for you. ;-)

You've lost your £10 already :)

MartinT
27-01-2012, 20:26
Playing it tonight and I swear it's still getting better!

Artifolk
28-01-2012, 15:05
That will be the burn in Martin..:eyebrows:

MartinT
28-01-2012, 15:33
Indeed, Paul only hinted at how much those min-regs would need.

Marco
29-01-2012, 01:05
Hi Martin,

Just to let you that I tried your earth wire idea, and you're not deaf - it is better! :)

In my set-up, however, it's not really about reducing hum (apart from the tiny bit I had, as described, lifting the tonearm on and off its rest, which has now gone), but eliminating an underlying 'hash' which superimposes itself on the music, and that one doesn't know is there, until running an earth wire from the PCB to the earth post on the preamp/phono stage, as you outlined.

Doing this results in substantially lowering the noisefloor, which is especially noticeable when listening through headphones, where any playback noise is immediately obvious. What adding the earth wire does is create 'blacker silences' between tracks, and when music is playing, vocals are projected more clearly, due to said reduced noise, giving them more presence and realism. Detail retrieval on all material is also notably increased.

The positive benefits of this little tweak make it very worthwhile doing, and I would thoroughly recommend it to all Techy users, not just those with ebony armboards - nice one, Martin! :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
29-01-2012, 10:23
Nice one, Marco. Good earthing affects sound quality in many different ways.

However, the second earth wire trick will not work with metal arrmboards - you will get an earth loop and more hum! It's only because ebony is an insulator that a separate earth path for arm and turntable is required.

Marco
29-01-2012, 10:28
Yup, hadn't thought of that, although perhaps it might depend on the earthing arrangement of the partnering PSU, preamp/phono stage and system?

If not, well it's now even more reason to get an ebony armboard! :)

Marco.

Artifolk
29-01-2012, 12:02
Paul,

Do the prices you gave me a little time back for the Internal regs still stand, and does this include all three stages?

Paul Hynes
29-01-2012, 12:20
Charles,

The prices still stand, as they are my normal price for each module. Do not forget to allow yourself the AoS member discount of 10%. This applies to all items I offer for the SL1200/SL1210 upgrades.

The lead time for the modules and cables is approx 36 working days at present as I am running behind schedule after work schedule delays caused by December’s bad weather damage to the local grid and the kind person who gave me their Flue-like virus in the New Year. I am hoping to reduce this lead time down to the more normal level of around 25 working days over the next month.

Artifolk
29-01-2012, 12:41
Thanks Paul,

Will be in contact very soon.
BTW, any news on my SR7?

Pete
30-01-2012, 13:48
Martin,

I have been thinking of upgrading my wiring from DIY Hynes SR5 PSU to the turntable. What gauge wiring are you using in your setup. I was thinking 16ga would be sufficient but not sure.

I have decided to use an XLR connector on the PSU end, I was wondering if using a shielded signal cable like the mogami quad mic cable would be appropriate for the powersupply cable? I see you use a loose braid unshielded.

I wonder if someone can elucidate me on the pros and cons of such an approach for the technics off-board PSU DC supply cable.

Cheers,
Pete

DSJR
30-01-2012, 13:52
You mean that you guys weren't connecting the chassis earth point up to the arm earth?????

MartinT
30-01-2012, 15:01
You mean that you guys weren't connecting the chassis earth point up to the arm earth?????

Not when a metal armboard is used on the Technics - that provides the arm earth to the turntable. Not ideal, but avoids a loop.

The insulated arm board and two earths back to the preamp scheme sounds better to my ears.

Marco
30-01-2012, 17:06
Ditto! :)

Marco.

Marco
30-01-2012, 17:30
Hi Pete,


I have decided to use an XLR connector on the PSU end, I was wondering if using a shielded signal cable like the mogami quad mic cable would be appropriate for the powersupply cable? I see you use a loose braid unshielded.


Just in case you're interested, I have a very nice Furutech CF60 XLR plug available for sale.

It's the male version of the one shown below, and unquestionably the finest XLR plug I've used (actually, I'd say that it's arguably the best that has ever been made):

http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Furutech_CF-602F_(R)_High_End_Performance_XLR_Connector_CF602R

The only reason I'm selling it is because since installing Paul's SR7 EHD, I've used the lead and connector he supplied with it.

If you're interested in the CF60, PM me and I'll give you an offer you can't refuse! ;)

Marco.

Pete
02-02-2012, 03:14
Thanks for the offer Marco.
I've got a silver neutrik xlr pair I am going to use that I just dug up out of my parts bin.

Cheers
Pete

Marco
02-02-2012, 05:54
No worries, dude - enjoy :cool:

Marco.

Mike_New
02-02-2012, 06:39
You have all convinced me I have ordered a set of PS mudules from Paul
Expect to get them some time in March, he is a busy cherub.

Paul Hynes
02-02-2012, 11:15
Yes, and I’ve ordered a boring and boring buse plot from Mike. :lol:

Pete
03-02-2012, 02:12
Yes, and I’ve ordered a boring and boring buse plot from Mike. :lol:

Wow! That totally did not translate into American :scratch:

Mike_New
03-02-2012, 04:24
Hi Pete,
They are funny people in the Islands, it's all those sheep!!

Alex_UK
03-02-2012, 07:40
Don't tell anyone else, but I don't have a clue either!

MartinT
03-02-2012, 07:47
boring and boring buse plot

Nope. I've parsed this two dozen times and still don't understand it.

Marco
03-02-2012, 08:18
Me neither, and I'm a half-Scottish daftee! :scratch: :eyebrows:

Marco.

Stratmangler
03-02-2012, 08:20
Hi Pete,
They are funny people in the Islands, it's all those sheep!!

Don't you mean girlfriends? :eyebrows:

Marco
03-02-2012, 08:45
No, more like brothers and sisters! :lol:

;)

Marco.

Paul Hynes
03-02-2012, 12:31
Looks like my attempt at humour fell at the first hurdle. :)

I take it you did not notice Mike’s spelling error in the post 217 before my post 218. :doh:

The first one to work this out :scratch: gets an SR3-21 SL1200 power supply as a prize. :champagne:

This puzzle is open to any none-trade member of the AoS Forum on the planet except Marco, as he does not need an SR3-21. ;)

I sent Marco a series 2 SR3-21 to try a while back and he either has, or is, sending it to Neil (DSDL) for part of a power supply assessment for the SL1200. Once Neil has finished with this SR3-21 I will pay for it to be shipped to the prize winner. :D

Dingdong
03-02-2012, 12:35
That'll be the modules spelling mistake then?

MartinT
03-02-2012, 13:09
Ah - got it! :lol:

P.S. how about an SR7-27 then? :eyebrows:

Marco
03-02-2012, 13:36
Hi Paul,


I sent Marco a series 2 SR3-21 to try a while back and he either has, or is, sending it to Neil (DSDL) for part of a power supply assessment for the SL1200. Once Neil has finished with this SR3-21 I will pay for it to be shipped to the prize winner. :D

Nice one - that's a very generous offer! Neil's defo got the SR3-21. PM him to confirm and make the necessary arrangements :)

Marco.

synsei
03-02-2012, 13:49
That'll be the modules spelling mistake then?

Well done Mark, mudules - non, modules -oui ;)

synsei
03-02-2012, 13:52
That'll be the modules spelling mistake then?

Well done Mark, mudules - non, modules - oui ;)

MartinT
03-02-2012, 13:54
Ok, Paul told me to post it publicly: Bearing and Bearing Base Plate.

:lol:

Paul Hynes
03-02-2012, 15:13
Hmm I can see a potential conflict arising here. Looking back at my post 218 it may appear that I was looking for someone to highlight Mike’s spelling mistake in which case Mark (Dingdong) would be the winner. However I was looking for someone to unravel the bearing misspelling which places Martin as the winner. He actually PM’d me with his answer so I told him to post on the tread to register his effort.

I think the fairest way to do this is to give the SR3 to Mark and give Martin the current equivalent value of the Series 2 SR3, which is £180 as a discount on an SR7 he is lusting after. :)

Hi Marco,

Just something to liven up the day for someone. I will PM Neil later when I get a break.

MartinT
03-02-2012, 15:17
Ooh, cheers Paul and very generous of you. I think I'll be placing an order for an SR7-27 with you soonly :)

Mike_New
03-02-2012, 22:16
I'm thinking of becoming a games show host

Paul Hynes
03-02-2012, 22:57
There is always someone after your job. :)

Dingdong
03-02-2012, 23:05
Hmm I can see a potential conflict arising here. Looking back at my post 218 it may appear that I was looking for someone to highlight Mike’s spelling mistake in which case Mark (Dingdong) would be the winner. However I was looking for someone to unravel the bearing misspelling which places Martin as the winner. He actually PM’d me with his answer so I told him to post on the tread to register his effort.

I think the fairest way to do this is to give the SR3 to Mark and give Martin the current equivalent value of the Series 2 SR3, which is £180 as a discount on an SR7 he is lusting after. :)

Hi Marco,

Just something to liven up the day for someone. I will PM Neil later when I get a break.

That's incredibly generous of you Paul. I realised there may have been some confusion after Martin posted. I'd have got that answer anyway;)

Paul Hynes
06-02-2012, 17:40
Hi Mark,

The confusion was my fault as I should have been more precise about the requirements to win the power supply.

Neil needs the SR3 for a while for his power supply comparisons, so I have placed your prize power supply in the build schedule, then you will not have to wait too long for it and Neil can continue without rushing things. Current lead time for the SR3 is in the region of 25 to 30 working days. I should be able to ship to you mid March. PM me your shipping address so I can get my office lass dealing with the paperwork.

Regards
Paul

Dingdong
06-02-2012, 17:44
pm'd

REXTON
03-04-2012, 20:56
Right, thats my money sent off! I should be getting these in the next 30 days or so. Cant wait!!:cool::cool::cool::cool:

Paul Hynes
05-05-2012, 12:02
This has been a while coming but I wanted to be sure the instructions were clear and accurate before posting the upgrade information.

I have revised the upgrade application instructions after feedback from Martin T and Anthony TD who have both applied the upgrade to SL1210 decks. Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. I have upgraded another SL1210 this last week, using these instructions, to verify that they are correct. If you decide to apply this upgrade yourself it is your responsibility to follow the instructions carefully. If you have any questions that need clarification, ask for this on this forum thread, so the information may benefit others. If you doubt your ability to apply this upgrade correctly, and safely, find a technically capable person to do it for you. I am looking into the possibility of appointing technically competent agents in key areas of this country, and overseas to provide a fitting service for those who require it.

PHTAP3
Paul Hynes Technics SL1200/SL1210 Application Note 3 (PHTAP3).
Modification of internal power supply regulation.

Modification procedure.

TAP3.1 to TAP3.11 are photographs showing the modification procedure.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP31.jpg
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP32.jpg
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP33.jpg
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP34.jpg
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP35.jpg
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP36.jpg
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP37.jpg
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP38.jpg
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP39.jpg
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP310.jpg
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/paulhynes/TAP311.jpg

Remove the Technics mains transformer and power supply board. (TAP3.1) These are now redundant.
Remove the Motor board. (TAP3.1)
Install TDR21 dual regulator board using the transformer mounting screws. (TAP3.2)

Remove the motor board
Remove the following components from the motor board :-

Resistors
R1 – 5K6
R2 – 6K8
R3 – 2K7
R4 – 470R
R5 – 470R
R304 – 560R

Transistors
Q1 – 2SD1265
Q2 – 2SD637
Q3 – 2SD637

Capacitors
C1 – 1,000uf 50V
C2 – 33uf 25V
C5 – 0.022uf
C6 – 0.022uf

Diodes
D1 – Bridge rectifier
D3 – 5v1 Zener diode
D301 – 5V1 Zener diode

Cut pcb track to separate the motor control electronics from the motor drive electronics. (TAP3.3)

Cut pcb track to pin 9 of IC301 (AN 6682). This disconnects IC301 from the 9v4 supply generated by IC201 (AN 6680). (TAP3.5)

Drill a 1mm hole in the now isolated pad next to pin 9 of IC301. (TAP3.5)

Drill a 1mm hole in the pad between IC301 pin 5 and test point G

Drill a 1mm hole in the pad between the junction of C108, C110 and R7. This pad is also connected to pins 19 and 20 of IC101 (AN6675) via a track on the PCB.

TDR21 terminals 1 to 6 are marked on the TDR21 PCB, Z1705, and S1709v4 pin outs are marked on the boards. TDR21 has two 21v regulators on board. The first 21v regulator nearest the 27v input side feeds the control circuitry 21v rail and the two regulators Z1705 and S1709v4. The second 21v regulator furthest away from the 27v input side feeds the motor drive circuitry.

If using Fine Silver wire or annealed copper wire with Teflon insulation it helps to cut and prepare the leads first. The modification requires 1.3 metres of wire if the external power supply lead is wired into the deck or 1.5 metres of wire if a DC inlet connector is fitted to the inlet flange. Fitting a coloured coded rubber sleeve over each end of the Teflon insulation will help with wire identification during assembly. Use red sleeves for positive and black sleeves for 0v wires.

Prepare 2 x 65mm wires for connecting the Z1705 regulator to the motor board in place of D301 zener diode as shown in (TAP3.10). Fit the wires to the motor board and solder.

Prepare 2 x 75mm wires for connecting the S1709v4 regulator to the motor board as shown in (TAP3.9). Fit the wires to the motor board and solder.

Prepare 1 x 240mm wire for 0v and 1 z 300mm wire for +21v to feed the motor drive circuitry as shown in (TAP3.7). Fit the wires to the motor board and solder.

The motor board can now be replaced in the Deck chassis and the various connectors can be refitted.

Fit 12mm stand-offs to Z1705 and S1709v4 and mount them as shown in (TAP3.10) Solder the wires from the motor board as shown in ((TAP3.10).

21v outputs from the first regulator from terminal 4 on TDR21 regulator module. Prepare 1 x 150mm wire for connection to the jumper wire (Marked J on the motor board next to C3), 1 x 140mm wire for connection to Z1705 and 1 x 190mm wire for connection to S1709v4. Solder these wires to the motor board jumper, Z1705 and S1709v4 as shown in ((TAP3.10). Twist the three wires and fit to terminal 4 on TDR21.

21v outputs from the second regulator from terminals 5 and 6 on TDR21 regulator module. The 240mm and 300mm wires that feed the motor drive section are connected to TDR21 with the 240mm 0v wire to terminal 5 and the 300mm 21v wire to terminal 6.

Connect the external 27v power supply to TDR21 input terminals either directly from the power supply DC lead or via an input connector as shown in ((TAP3.11). The DC input 0v wire should be fitted to terminal 2 and the +27v wire to terminal 1.

Thoroughly check all wiring before refitting the platter and applying power to the external power supply.

REXTON
05-05-2012, 15:10
OH FCUK! WHAT HAVE I LET MYSELF IN FOR :eek::eek: :cool:

RobbieGong
05-05-2012, 15:14
OH FCUK! WHAT HAVE I LET MYSELF IN FOR :eek::eek: :cool:

Ha Ha, I was just thinking exactly the same - You guys a far braver men than me :eek:

Paul Hynes
05-05-2012, 15:20
Andy,

I have already told you that FCUK is not French. :eek:

If you do not feel comfortable fitting the internal regulator upgrades send the deck, sans (that’s French for without) the arm, to me. I can do the modifications for you.

PS. I have Made in Japan and will spin it once I have finished my bearing and platter upgrades.

Regards
Paul

Stratmangler
05-05-2012, 16:10
I have Made in Japan and will spin it once I have finished my bearing and platter upgrades.

Regards
Paul

The best live rock album ever!
Bar none.

REXTON
05-05-2012, 17:49
Andy,

I have already told you that FCUK is not French. :eek:

If you do not feel comfortable fitting the internal regulator upgrades send the deck, sans (that’s French for without) the arm, to me. I can do the modifications for you.

PS. I have Made in Japan and will spin it once I have finished my bearing and platter upgrades.

Regards
Paul

Paul,

I'm trying to stop swearing hence the usage of fcuk, I suppose I could use fook instead!! :( I want to learn how to do these regs so i'm going to buy a spare 1210 PCB and if I fook (there you go!!!) it up I have a spare. I also fancy having ago at doing that little project I was telling you about over the phone with the spare PCB :eyebrows: Thing is you need to remove so many components that there will be nothing left of the PCB to upgrade which is even better for me. :cool: Anyway, all I can say is that your PSU is getting better and thanks for all your hard work.

Andy

Paul Hynes
05-05-2012, 18:05
Hi Andy,

If you manage to stop swearing, will you tell me how to do it?

I’m here for any support you need with the internal regulator upgrades.

Regards
Paul

MartinT
05-05-2012, 20:15
OH FCUK! WHAT HAVE I LET MYSELF IN FOR :eek::eek: :cool:

I kinda warned you :rfl:

Mike_New
05-05-2012, 23:55
OH .....! WHAT HAVE I LET MYSELF IN FOR :eek::eek: :cool:

No Problem Andrew, when you have finished just tune for maximum smoke!!

You will have no problem with Paul he really knows what he is doing and I'm sure he will be able to hold your hand while you quiver and quake with you soldering iron hovering above the PCB.

Mike_New
06-05-2012, 04:49
Paul
I have been studying your Instructions with some interest as I will need to modify both my PCB and the one for my Lathe cutting friend. and I have one observation which may help those who are not adept at weilding a soldering iron, especially when trying to remove components.

The Resistors R2 & R4 are the only ones connected to the regulated 21V rail which are directly associated with the regulator circuitry which we are removing.
Now if we cut the copper track just below J3 where the regulator Q3 output is connected. This will isolate R2 & R3 from the new regulated supply from your module. We will also need to remove Q3 but this is relatively easy as it is connected to the main PCB with three wires, these wires can even be cut if required.
This will still leave C3 connected across the new supply. The common 0V tracks are track 1 & 3 as veiwed from the top of the PCB

In this way surely people can now leave in the board, all the 21V regulator components down at the bottom LH corner if they wish and opt to cut another track instead. Your image TAD34 shows a nice clean space and this is the way I would do it.
However the option would remove a lot of heartach for the likes of Andrew and others.

Also a word of caution for those people who have fitted my bearing and who will have removed the plastic cover over the coil assembly.
In order to avoid any damage to the coil assembly when working on the board, refit this cover during the work.
If you do not have the cover then use a soft towel to rest the coil assembly on.