PDA

View Full Version : New digital coax cable



magiccarpetride
24-12-2010, 18:24
A friend of mine was looking to get a digital coax cable so I pointed him to Stan's cable (http://www.homehifi.co.uk/products/TRC-222.html). And I asked him, since he's ordering it, to order one for me too.

Well, last night he called me up and said that the cable has arrived. I went to his place, took the cable, went home, installed it, and gave it a listen.

Interesting. It really, definitely makes a difference. I was hearing previously unheard details. But... this newly unveiled clarity apparently comes with a price. The visceral oomph! and the slam seem to have been compromised. The overall sound, while silkier and smoother, now also seems much more polite.

So my question now is: does this cable need to be burnt in? And if yes, for how long? I'd hate to be asked to sacrifice the visceral aspect for more clarity. Can't we have both? Admittedly, I know nothing about cables, but I'm hoping someone in here can guide me in my choices.

Gazjam
24-12-2010, 18:43
Good cable, I had a couple of those.
Agreed that digi cables can sound different...

(Flame suit ON!)

John
24-12-2010, 19:06
In my experience cables do not burn in like components

DSJR
24-12-2010, 19:21
Apparently, digital cables with lots of RF reflections can distort the digital waveform enough to make an audible difference. If Stans wires take the edge off, then that may be exactly what's required, a Gator then properly restoring the sense of "push" and "urgency" you claim to be missing. All of this should be easily measurable too and not "snake oil."

Reid Malenfant
24-12-2010, 19:36
It's just a shame they are phono connectors :doh:

Mr Pig
24-12-2010, 19:48
Could some one explain to me some of the reasons digital cables can sound different?

magiccarpetride
24-12-2010, 19:52
In my experience cables do not burn in like components

Then how do they burn in in your experience?

DSJR
24-12-2010, 20:06
Could some one explain to me some of the reasons digital cables can sound different?

Paul Miller did the research a good few years ago and apparently it's down to cables' RF performance.

The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2010, 21:00
Then how do they burn in in your experience?

I think he means they don't burn in in his experience ... It's not something I have noticed either ... That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I haven't ever noticed it ...

magiccarpetride
25-12-2010, 07:52
I think he means they don't burn in in his experience ... It's not something I have noticed either ... That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I haven't ever noticed it ...

I agree with him (and, by proxy, with you too). After giving the TRC-222 a decent 20+ hours burn in, I'm sorry to report that nothing, absolutely nothing improved.

Even worse than that, things look (read: sound) much bleaker tonight than they looked last night, when I was seemingly too tired to think straight. This time, I've managed to get a small panel of seasoned audio enthusiasts to assist me with the audition. The results are unanimous: after conducting various double-blind tests, everyone pretty much (well, not pretty much, but totally) consistently gave the TRC-222 digital coax big thumbs down.

Most shockingly of all, this cable appears to almost act as a muffler, removing a lot of musical information from the tracks we tested. I must say this had rendered me speechless, as I don't really understand how's that even possible.

Suffice it to say that, after polling my small group of friends who generously assisted me with this audition, the claims on average range from 45% muffling all the way to 70% muffling. Shocking, I know.

For example, on Annie Lennox "Wait in Vain" from her album "Medusa", we've all consistently and repeatedly heard how the nylon string acoustic guitar completely lacks the snap that gets happily restored the moment I switch back to my old previously enjoyed Nordost Silver Shadow.

I must say with a lot of sadness that I'm extremely disappointed, as I've expected nothing short of miracle from this cable. I'm always partial to the so-called 'giant killers' (one of which is our beloved Caiman), and in general I love to root for the underdog. However, this time the underdog stayed just that -- the underdog, and it failed to bring home the bacon.

Live and learn...

Edit: anyone who may be skeptical that cables can make audible difference in audio is cordially invited to visit me in my home in Vancouver and plainly hear for themselves. The audible differences between the two cables are EXTREME. Imagine if some component were to remove 45% or more of the music you're used to hearing. It's that staggering!

AlanS
25-12-2010, 10:23
I agree with him (and, by proxy, with you too). After giving the TRC-222 a decent 20+ hours burn in, I'm sorry to report that nothing, absolutely nothing improved.

Even worse than that, things look (read: sound) much bleaker tonight than they looked last night, when I was seemingly too tired to think straight. This time, I've managed to get a small panel of seasoned audio enthusiasts to assist me with the audition. The results are unanimous: after conducting various double-blind tests, everyone pretty much (well, not pretty much, but totally) consistently gave the TRC-222 digital coax big thumbs down.

Most shockingly of all, this cable appears to almost act as a muffler, removing a lot of musical information from the tracks we tested. I must say this had rendered me speechless, as I don't really understand how's that even possible.

Suffice it to say that, after polling my small group of friends who generously assisted me with this audition, the claims on average range from 45% muffling all the way to 70% muffling. Shocking, I know.

For example, on Annie Lennox "Wait in Vain" from her album "Medusa", we've all consistently and repeatedly heard how the nylon string acoustic guitar completely lacks the snap that gets happily restored the moment I switch back to my old previously enjoyed Nordost Silver Shadow.

I must say with a lot of sadness that I'm extremely disappointed, as I've expected nothing short of miracle from this cable. I'm always partial to the so-called 'giant killers' (one of which is our beloved Caiman), and in general I love to root for the underdog. However, this time the underdog stayed just that -- the underdog, and it failed to bring home the bacon.

Live and learn...

Edit: anyone who may be skeptical that cables can make audible difference in audio is cordially invited to visit me in my home in Vancouver and plainly hear for themselves. The audible differences between the two cables are EXTREME. Imagine if some component were to remove 45% or more of the music you're used to hearing. It's that staggering!

Alex doesn't like the cable in his system which has removed so much from the music he cannot recognise what is playing. Send it back move on.

Fi-Wi
25-12-2010, 12:39
Suffice it to say that, after polling my small group of friends who generously assisted me with this audition, the claims on average range from 45% muffling all the way to 70% muffling. Shocking, I know.

How on earth can one (not) hear 45% muffling? How is that different from hearing 50% muffled music? :scratch:

Gazjam
25-12-2010, 12:56
Best Digi cable I've heard (and use) is the NVA Super Sound Pipe.
Its unusual construction (hollow copper tube) probably contributes to why it sounds different to a stranded cable IMHO.

Reid Malenfant
25-12-2010, 14:43
The problem here is the phono plugs :eyebrows:

Here is a quote from the site


If your digital coax cable’s dielectric isn’t perfect, it won’t precisely match the 75 Ohm impedance of your components and speakers. This means it won’t be immune to jitter, which can be substantial enough to produce audible imperfections like phase distortion, increased noise floor, decreased bandwidth and lack of clarity. The TRC-222 superior quality construction and advanced features help maintain 75 Ohm signal integrity, while ultra-wide bandwidth capabilities—in excess of 2GHz—help eliminate jitter to give you superior speed, accuracy and sound.

Notice the bold & underlined bit...
& the big problem is that phono connectors don't have any specific impedance at all :doh: They are not an RF connector, but an audio one ;)

So it doesn't matter how well the cable itself matches the 75 ohm specific impedance, simply because the plugs & sockets mess it up..

If you look on top quality equipment you'll find BNC connectors used for single ended digital links. These actually do have a specific impedance & can be bought as 50 or 75ohm. 75ohm being the optimum in this case..

If anyone can go one better & use 110 balanced connections via AES/EBU (XLR connectors) i seriously recommend it, the difference isn't subtle :eyebrows:

DSJR
25-12-2010, 15:25
This may have changed in modern times, but early DACs and transports often had terrible impedance mismatching, irrespective of the cables used. Sometimes, this was so severe it appeared almost deliberate .

Mr Pig
25-12-2010, 16:19
Stupid question, but why did they use phono plugs when they are the wrong impedance?

Reid Malenfant
25-12-2010, 16:21
You'll need to talk to the knobbers at Sony & Philips who developed the Sony/Philips Digital Interface (S/PDIF) :eyebrows:

Personally i have no idea :scratch:

Actually they may well have developed it with BNC plugs & sockets in mind, like i mentioned earlier if you look at more expensive kit you'll often find BNC connectors ;)

It could well be that things were then built down to a price which is often pretty common unfortunately :rolleyes:

goraman
25-12-2010, 19:48
I have found a pure glass Tolsink cable to work very well as a digital transfer.
THe plastic ones made from plexy turn yellow inside and is the reason people think tolsink is crap,real glass works very well but you have to look hard to find it.
Coaxial cables will sometimes make music sound very flat,the best I've heard came via Audio Note and Kimber.
The best budget cable was made for me by a freind Tom at whitezombieaudio.com I use it from transport to my DAC.
The closer the cable messures to 75ohm the better it will transfer,Tom found low mass conectors to be key in getting his cable right.

Mark Grant
26-12-2010, 10:04
Stupid question, but why did they use phono plugs when they are the wrong impedance?

I would guess low price and keeping things simple for consumers.
BNC cables might be too complicated for some consumers to connect :eek: push and twist rather than just push it onto the socket.

DSJR
26-12-2010, 12:05
Those darned phono plugs had taken over by this point and I seem to remember that digital outputs weren't on the first players.

I wish to be corrected on this, but I suspect that modern input buffers these days should be able to deal with a certain amount of jitter in different transmission cables/terminations. Remember that older players especially were sensitive to rf interference and sprayed all sorts back out as well, via mains leads and also the connecting sockets.

Mr Pig
26-12-2010, 22:06
Can anyone recommend a cheap toslink cable? One available in the UK that is? What these Mark Grant cables, are they any good? Need another as my son's nicked the one off the DVD player for his DAC ;0)

synsei
27-12-2010, 15:40
Can anyone recommend a cheap toslink cable? One available in the UK that is? What these Mark Grant cables, are they any good? Need another as my son's nicked the one off the DVD player for his DAC ;0)

I use these: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370469737698&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_1964wt_1158.

They are very well made, sound fantastic and won't break the bank ;)

Mr Pig
27-12-2010, 19:44
Sorry, my mistake. I meant digital coax, with phonos on.

Reid Malenfant
27-12-2010, 19:59
Buy whatever length of this cable you need (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=9512) ;)

& two of these phono plugs (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=1007&OrderCode=JZ13P) :) Make sure you order JZ13P as it needs to be able to take an 8mm diameter cable :eyebrows:

Perfect digital interconnect that'll eat £50+ commercial stuff for breakfast ;)

Welder
27-12-2010, 20:43
Or, raid your nearest Virgin Media installers for a length of CTFC-T10 10208.
Solid core, decent dielectric and foil and braid screen.
Dont know if its any better than Marks suggestion but it's decent enough stuff.

Reid Malenfant
27-12-2010, 20:57
Or, raid your nearest Virgin Media installers for a length of CTFC-T10 10208.
Solid core, decent dielectric and foil and braid screen.
Dont know if its any better than Marks suggestion but it's decent enough stuff.
Neither do i, but you just reminded me of CT100 satelite cable which is also solid core with a braided screen & foil as well. Still 75ohm so perfectly acceptable ;)

As i'm not sure of the dielectric of that stuff you mentioned John i'd just say foam is about as good as it gets due to high velocity factor & the Maplin stuff has got a foam dielectric surrounding the centre conductor.. The CT100 hasn't but it's cheaper ;)

Mr Pig
27-12-2010, 21:00
Or, raid your nearest Virgin Media installers for a length of CTFC-T10 10208.

I have some of that in the house. So you think that's ok then? Not very confident about the Maplin stuff. I've bought quite a few things from Maplin over the years and I have to say that the quality is generally not startling!

chrism
27-12-2010, 21:07
The foam vs air core surround on coax cables is only intended to offer better moisture resistance and improved cable bending when used outside.

I don't think that it make any difference to the sound if using it as a SPDIF cable though so give it ago. I tend to think that it is the connections that make a difference really in cables and I have tried a few.

Regards

Welder
27-12-2010, 21:10
Well tbh Colin Mark is right about foam dielectric being about as good as you can get but yes I think the Virgin stuff is good enough for the job.
I’ve made interconnects out of it and it’s been fine.
Try both mate and get the welding kit out ;)

goraman
27-12-2010, 21:11
Can anyone recommend a cheap toslink cable? One available in the UK that is? What these Mark Grant cables, are they any good? Need another as my son's nicked the one off the DVD player for his DAC ;0)


Colin,This cable is cheap and it is real glass not plastic that turns yellow inside.
After a couple of years the differance is night and day.
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-3-ft-GLASS-TOSLINK-DIGITAL-OPTICAL-CABLE-Premium-/380296347884?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588b6dc0ec

I use the exact same cable,I have several others by Monster ect.. as plastic ones should be changed once a year or two at the most.
plastic can be bent alot more than glass but even when both are new glass has far less jitter and loss.

Talk to them I'm sure they can do USPS shipping to you cheap, if not you can ship it to me and I can usps it to you.

Reid Malenfant
27-12-2010, 21:13
Not very confident about the Maplin stuff. I've bought quite a few things from Maplin over the years and I have to say that the quality is generally not startling!
I generally agree, however this cable isn't manufactured by Maplin ;)

I use the stuff on damn near every single ended interconnect on my system & used it as a digital interconnect when i was running that single ended. There are a few others on here that also use the stuff if i remember correctly :)

I'll shortly be buying a 50M reel of the same make of cable but balanced as i need to make some balanced cables. It's very good cable indeed...

What was it John said to me on another thread recently??

ah yes, pearls before swine :lolsign: how apt :)

Welder
27-12-2010, 21:18
I want paying for that re quote mate :eyebrows:

Stratmangler
27-12-2010, 22:37
I use these: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370469737698&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_1964wt_1158.

They are very well made, sound fantastic and won't break the bank ;)

I'm still trying to work out the relevance of gold plated anything on an optical lead:scratch:
Still, they're cheap enough, and the gold plating won't have a negative effect:lolsign:

Mark Grant
28-12-2010, 11:30
? What these Mark Grant cables, are they any good?

If it was a high quality glass optical these would be good :)

http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=40_17

Not as cheap as plastic toslink, but they are probably the lowest price Glass core with the best service.

Mark Grant
28-12-2010, 11:34
Sorry, my mistake. I meant digital coax, with phonos on.

Belden 1694A with Canare phonos is a low price and high quality.

http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_3&products_id=3

or go wild and try these:
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_3&products_id=183

(There are of course many others available )

Mark Grant
28-12-2010, 11:47
I'm still trying to work out the relevance of gold plated anything on an optical lead:scratch:


Not a lot, a plastic connector is OK as long as it fits well, some are really slack.

If there was tin plating on a metal part would anyone buy it :)

Would anyone buy a BMW if they had steel wheels :)

Mr Pig
28-12-2010, 11:52
Belden 1694A with Canare phonos is a low price and high quality.)

That's the sort of thing I had in mind. Although you would say they were good! ;0)

It's not for me but for my son's room. £16 is pretty cheap though if you think that would be better than a bit of Virgin's cable with phonos nailed on the end?

If digital coaxial cables with phons have issues would it not be better to use USB if possible? The Firestone DAC has a USB input.

Mark Grant
28-12-2010, 12:00
I only do perfect :) not a box shifter, I only sell anything that I would be happy to use myself :)

No issues with the Canare crimped phonos, should be better than DIY soldered connectors.

USB would be worth a try if you have USB out and an input as they are cheap.

Maybe try both. returns are welcome if not needed.

Mr Pig
28-12-2010, 12:30
I only do perfect.

Ha ha ha, I've yet to see a manufacturer who says their products are crap! ;0)

Well there was this one guy called Gerald Ratner who did just that but it didn't work out very well...

Only noising you up ;0) I've found a few other people who think your cables are good. I'll run the idea past junior ;0)

chrism
28-12-2010, 15:33
I use one of Mark Grant's Belden 1694A cables with Canare phonos for my SB into Caiman and it does the job very well. Can't see any point spending more.

I have also made my own cable with standard RCA's and it was not as good as Mark Grants.

Regards

jantheman
28-12-2010, 16:23
ALL my cables are Mark's. They do for me very well.

Mr Pig
28-12-2010, 22:08
ALL my cables are Mark's. They do for me very well.

Evil looking dog you've got there.

Ali Tait
28-12-2010, 23:37
Nearly as evil as your pig.

Mr Pig
29-12-2010, 09:39
Nearly as evil as your pig.

That's a happy pig ;0)

John
29-12-2010, 09:48
Yes I never noticed new cables burning in sorry to hear about your bad experience

Ali Tait
29-12-2010, 11:18
That's a happy pig ;0)

Looks like an evil grin to me! :lol:

trailer
29-12-2010, 11:27
That's the sort of thing I had in mind. Although you would say they were good! ;0)

It's not for me but for my son's room. £16 is pretty cheap though if you think that would be better than a bit of Virgin's cable with phonos nailed on the end?

If digital coaxial cables with phons have issues would it not be better to use USB if possible? The Firestone DAC has a USB input.

Doesn't the Firestone use a different chip for the USB than the SPDIF?

Mr Pig
29-12-2010, 12:09
Doesn't the Firestone use a different chip for the USB than the SPDIF?

Oh I don't know. I did notice that it sounded markedly different when using the USB instead of the coaxial. I'm going to say to him to try both.


Looks like an evil grin to me!

That's a happy smile, how can you say that? That dog looks like it would enjoy nothing better than ripping your face off! ;0)

trailer
29-12-2010, 12:39
Oh I don't know. I did notice that it sounded markedly different when using the USB instead of the coaxial. I'm going to say to him to try both.

This is from Russ Andrews site:

"Featuring a Burr Brown 24-bit 96kHz DAC for the optical and coax inputs, and a 16-bit 48kHz DAC for the USB input".

That'll probably explain the differences!

magiccarpetride
29-12-2010, 18:10
Yes I never noticed new cables burning in sorry to hear about your bad experience

Now that I reflect on it, not sure if the cable length (1 meter) has some bearing on it. I seem to remember someone telling me to avoid 1 meter cable length, because it does something blah blah blah. Does anyone know anything about that theory. Apparently, 1.5 meter length is better?

magiccarpetride
29-12-2010, 18:13
How on earth can one (not) hear 45% muffling? How is that different from hearing 50% muffled music? :scratch:

What?

magiccarpetride
29-12-2010, 18:16
The problem here is the phono plugs :eyebrows:

Here is a quote from the site


Notice the bold & underlined bit...
& the big problem is that phono connectors don't have any specific impedance at all :doh: They are not an RF connector, but an audio one ;)

So it doesn't matter how well the cable itself matches the 75 ohm specific impedance, simply because the plugs & sockets mess it up..

If you look on top quality equipment you'll find BNC connectors used for single ended digital links. These actually do have a specific impedance & can be bought as 50 or 75ohm. 75ohm being the optimum in this case..

If anyone can go one better & use 110 balanced connections via AES/EBU (XLR connectors) i seriously recommend it, the difference isn't subtle :eyebrows:

Does that mean that Logitech Touch is messing things up? Surely it cannot be at the Caiman's end?

Reid Malenfant
29-12-2010, 18:32
Does that mean that Logitech Touch is messing things up? Surely it cannot be at the Caiman's end?
You'll have to explain what you mean Alex ;)

If we are talking about phono connectors on digital cables then it messed at both ends innit :eyebrows:

magiccarpetride
29-12-2010, 18:41
You'll have to explain what you mean Alex ;)

If we are talking about phono connectors on digital cables then it messed at both ends innit :eyebrows:

I mean Stan is selling his TRC-222 digital coax which should (in my mind, at least) be optimized to work with his Caiman. Pair that with the Touch on the other end, which may not be optimized to use those particular phono connectors, and you get the above described empirically verifiable loss of signal.

I don't know, I'm most likely talking out of my ass here, but I'd be surprised if Stan was selling a component which would not be optimally paired with his other best selling component. I know for a fact that Stan is a very meticulous and conscientious person.

Reid Malenfant
29-12-2010, 18:50
Ah, cheers for the full explanaition :)

So what you are saying then or should i say suggesting is that because you don't like the sound of the cable that there must be some kind of mismatch with one of your bits of kit? :scratch:

I'd simply suggest you try other cables until you find one you like in the position that the present cable is employed in. This is where it's handy to know a decent hifi dealer near you, they'll often lend equipment or cables out to you until you find something that suits :cool:

magiccarpetride
29-12-2010, 19:00
Ah, cheers for the full explanaition :)

So what you are saying then or should i say suggesting is that because you don't like the sound of the cable that there must be some kind of mismatch with one of your bits of kit? :scratch:

I'd simply suggest you try other cables until you find one you like in the position that the present cable is employed in. This is where it's handy to know a decent hifi dealer near you, they'll often lend equipment or cables out to you until you find something that suits :cool:

Thanks Mark, that's a very good suggestion. It's not that I'm not satisfied with my current digital coax cable, it's just that I was hoping that Stan's cable will blow it out of the water. You see, I'm always open for experimenting, and one never knows that better sound is to be had unless one tries various new scenarios.

Sometimes the experiment backfires.

Gazjam
29-12-2010, 20:15
Alex...
I'd try the NVA Sound Pipe or Mark Grant's 1000HD.

Both better than Stans with the Caiman in my opinion.
Tried them all and the NVA is best.

Money back guarantee if not satisfied with them both.

magiccarpetride
29-12-2010, 23:42
Ah, cheers for the full explanaition :)

So what you are saying then or should i say suggesting is that because you don't like the sound of the cable that there must be some kind of mismatch with one of your bits of kit? :scratch:

I'd simply suggest you try other cables until you find one you like in the position that the present cable is employed in. This is where it's handy to know a decent hifi dealer near you, they'll often lend equipment or cables out to you until you find something that suits :cool:

Another quick question that just popped to mind: is this cable directional? Should I try reversing it?

Reid Malenfant
29-12-2010, 23:51
No it won't be, at least it shoudn't be ;)

What you have there is basically a coaxial cable with just the centre conductor & screen to shield it. Only when you have two cores in the centre (a balanced cable) can you cut the outer screen at one end & make it directional. This only applies for audio cables though, a digital cable will have a full length screen & be connected at both ends :)

In that case i don't see how directionality can come into it :scratch: Feel free to try it though :cool: