PDA

View Full Version : EMI Elliptical Drivers



Spur07
20-12-2010, 16:15
A very nice chap local to me called Michael gave me some old EMI elliptical drivers in sturdy cabinets couple of weeks back. He bought them for a £1 whilst working for EMI in his younger days in the 60's I believe and built the cabinets himself. They'd been sitting in his loft for the last 30 years and I guess it was either me or the skip!

They're not matched units. Here's a link to an album of pics for those interested. Click on the image twice to get full size:

http://s601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/spur07/EMI%20Elliptical%20Drivers/

And here's the reason they're not matched (probably). Below is part of an email exchange with a guy who goes by the name Goldieduck. He's written some ebay guides to EMI elliptical drivers and appears to be the oracle when it comes to these things. I enlisted his help in identifying them and this was part of his response:

Yea well er, these are possibly special units and were possibly research prototypes!

The basket of the gray one is not like the pre 92390 series 48000N basket seen in my Ebay AlNiCo guide as it has holes drilled near the cube magnet to take the 10 watt coil and x-over you see there!

Your unusual '10 watt' green basket 350 has a PVC edge co-axial tweeter and although PVC edge tweeters appeared in baffle form in the EMI 215 (seen in the Ebay EMI enclosure guide), this is the first PVC edge co-axial tweeter I've seen, these quite possibly special units! Your green basket 350 has the original EMI wiring from the 1960s, suggesting it's a research item with the person you knew buying these as souvenirs of nostalgic value?

Guides updated, thanks!

I heard of another EMI worker who kept a pair of EMI branded speakers in his front room until the day he died, some workers were very loyal to these odd drivers. EMI 319 are just exceptional although the EMI 711A version is liked more. Today you'd need a very high power Dynaudio speaker to get close to what the EMI 319 can do in a small cabinet but you'd also need a special amplifier. The harman/kardon A 402 usually used with Tannoy Dual Concentric gives a good idea of the sound EMI 319 are meant to give at 70dB of S/N ratio FM tuner. - The Peter Walker QUAD II tube amplifier is 70dB S/N ratio and the intended amplifier for the EMI 319, they're 15 watt although very much QUAD II 15 watt. QUAD II don't sound very good on modern speakers, not very powerful but connect EMI 319 and I doubt most anyone would have any complaints!

Upgrading X-overs is in the Ebay Wharfedale Glendale XP2 guide and not recommended, unless you have Lab equipment to know what effect any upgrade is having on performance. The EMI x-overs are more specialist than modern mass market designs and aimed a tube amplifiers, so a bit different from Solid State.

Ali Tait
20-12-2010, 16:59
Interesting.Have you tried them yet How about some pics?

Spur07
20-12-2010, 18:01
There's a link to some pics of the drivers in my initial post Ali. It takes you to a Photobucket album, click each image a couple of times to get the full size pic, they're good quality pics, I spent a bit of time on them.

I haven't had a chance to test the drivers yet. I've confirmed polarity on the speaker wire using the pop test with a battery and the cones seemed to be moving fine. The speaker wire is quite short and the only amp I've got at the moment is a Nap 250, so I wont be plugging them into that. :) I've ordered one of those cheap 25 Watt amp boards from 'Shure' on ebay. It'll probably reach me after christmas.

He did a pretty good job with the cabinets tbh, I think he must have followed or copied a design. The wood is pretty thick. I can't decide whether to refurbish and re-lag them. I did think originally of just knocking up some basic open baffles. Obviously I wont be modernizing the x-overs due to the possible posterity value. Whatever I do I'll post some more pics.

If I had some spare cash lying around I'd be tempted to find or buy a Quad II to hook them up to, just to hear what he's getting so excited about.

Anyone out there with a Quad II? :)

DSJR
20-12-2010, 19:12
Those drivers were very highly thought of at the time I understand and in the late 60's, the version available was with the two tweeters (from memory). My Hacker record player had a single cone 10x6 speaker (Celestion in my case I think) and I wondered if the EMI units would fit into the cabinet.

The B&W DM1 used a modified EMI driver as a bass unit and, I think, the Monitor Audio MA3 used an updated version, although memory is lacking on this..

Dave Hewitt
20-12-2010, 19:15
Hi my first proper speakers were emi units in homemade cabs,they were 13by 8inches with two tweeters across the front,I thought they were very good at the time and can see that they would suit avalve amp,would love to try some again.Speakers like these became unfashionable about then when transistor amps were coming on the scene and the trend was toward low efficiency speakers as watts were becoming cheap.
Dave.

spendorman
20-12-2010, 19:36
For quality of sound and EMI 13"x 8", look up B&W DM3

Spur07
20-12-2010, 19:46
Here's Goldieduck's ebay guide To EMI Ellipticals:

http://reviews.ebay.com/E-M-I-tweeter-450-speaker-HACKER-B-amp-W-ELLIPTICAL-OVAL_W0QQugidZ10000000010079859

Spur07
20-12-2010, 19:47
For quality of sound and EMI 13"x 8", look up B&W DM3

As I understand it I think the EMI drivers used in the B&W's were considered to be superior.

spendorman
20-12-2010, 19:54
As I understand it I think the EMI drivers used in the B&W's were considered to be superior.

They tended to have bigger magnets than the average EMI's and used a fibreglass composite cone.

Spur07
20-12-2010, 20:01
They tended to have bigger magnets than the average EMI's and used a fibreglass composite cone.

Yes I think you're right Spenderman. Many people are still enjoying those B&W today, apparently the Quad 303's were a good match if I'm not mistaken.

Spur07
20-12-2010, 20:07
Sorry all, just worked out how to embed the images in the thread. Here are the pics:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/spur07/EMI%20Elliptical%20Drivers/E4.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/spur07/EMI%20Elliptical%20Drivers/E3.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/spur07/EMI%20Elliptical%20Drivers/E2.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/spur07/EMI%20Elliptical%20Drivers/E1.jpg

That's much easier than following a link :)

spendorman
20-12-2010, 20:09
Yes I think you're right Spenderman. Many people are still enjoying those B&W today, apparently the Quad 303's were a good match if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, if in good condition, the B&W DM1 and DM3 are pretty good and don't need much power to drive them. I still have some of each.

DSJR
20-12-2010, 20:24
HMV in Oxford St had a lovely quality system for rock music on the first floor for years - TD150/M15e, Quad 33/303 and DM1's set high in the suspended ceiling. This system lasted years and the Td150 became a TD160/M75-6s before the whole floor was re-developed and some crummy cheapo KEF's or similar came in and the treble and bass were turned to maximum (or that's how it seemed).

A few months before I left my final audio employer for the last time, we traded in some DM3's. They must have been faulty or knackered, as all I could hear was a thrummy bass and little else. I'd love to hear a "proper" pair :)

SPS
21-12-2010, 20:26
i have 6 of those emi drivers, 4 have tweeters speakers across the front both twin & single tweeters , the other pair have larger magnets and were the bass drivers from a late type decca decola, i used these in some open baffles the other week with a pair of saba lookalike telefunken 3" mid/tweeters

they where a good match with a nice sound.. but not enough bass in ob, so they are back in the garage.

i also have a pair of older dm1's... sounds like there may be another pair inside

cheers
steve

DSJR
21-12-2010, 21:34
The CM1's had mass added to the cones to take the bass down further (Tannoy did similar with their "Girdacoustic" cones). I don't know the physics, but it worked at the time for B&W in any case.

hornucopia
22-12-2010, 11:58
Circa 1965-6, I made a nice Coffin shaped box for my Garrard Lab-A deck, plus 2 mono one-valve, off-the-shelf, amps, running 2 awful looking boxes with 13 X 8 ellipticals.
No padding; must have had a cavernous sound.
should have kept the EMIs
AND I gave my brother the B+W DM1s a few years back.
I have impeccable taste in stuff I've given away!

My best friend used to work in that HMV shop for years too.

spendorman
22-12-2010, 12:11
In the 70's my friend worked at EMI as a sales engineer for loudspeaker units. They supplied many manufacturers including B&W, Monitor Audio and IMF. The MA3 used an EMI elliptical 14"x9" with a cast chassis and massive magnet (think part number may be 14A770C).

You may have to be logged on to see these MA3's


http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=243338


The MA7 used an EMI 6" bass/ mid and an EMI dome tweeter.

Spur07
05-02-2011, 17:47
Further update on my Eliipticals,

just before christmas I bought a cheap 25 watt Class D amp from Shure Electronics in China for £11.00 specifically to run the EMI drivers. (I think now I probably should have paid an extra £20 for a fully boxed model with volume control).

Here are some pics. Please excuse the dust :)

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/spur07/EMI%20Elliptical%20Drivers/_MG_0183-1.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/spur07/EMI%20Elliptical%20Drivers/_MG_0180.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/spur07/EMI%20Elliptical%20Drivers/_MG_0182.jpg

The amp has 4 gain settings so itunes has to perform the volume duties into my Beresford 7510. Not an ideal set up. I tried using the 7510 as a pre-amp but it's not recommended by Shure and the resulting sound was insipid.

When I switched to fixed output from the 7510 I had to turn the itunes volume right down to its minimal setting, (in fact it's not really low enough), but the results were excellent. Both drivers seem to be in good working order and I quickly became addicted - they are much more transparent than my Royds with whole levels of music appearing on certain tracks that I'd never heard before. The first thing I noticed was how the splash of a cymbal sounded so much sweeter and authentic and there's a real twang to the guitars. Predictably these drivers sound best with jazz, acoustic, and straight rock. Bass is lacking, especially in this temporary set up. Vocals can be a forward at times on certain tracks (female vocals) but not shouty. Unfortunately, the driver on the right (single tweeter) has slightly less gain than the other. I'm now intrigued as to how these will sound with valves, in particular the Quad II which the drivers were designed to be used with. So I've made a few enquires.

Anyway, I've decided to build some JE Labs OB's for the EMI drivers to see how much bass I can get. My local builders can supply 3/4" birch ply and one of the guys there is happy to cut the design out for me. I'll change the speaker wire and install some binding posts as well but the drivers will remain untouched as they maybe prototypes.

Steve,

what OB design did you try with your EMI's?

Anyway, plugging my Naim/Royd system back in the other day it did sound good so we'll see what happens, but I've been thinking about selling the Naim gear for some time now. Could do with paying a few small debts and after some sterling service my 7510 probably needs upgrading.

P

John
05-02-2011, 18:08
Good luck with the build

Spur07
10-02-2011, 20:05
Good luck with the build

Thanks John.

Wood now bought and being cut - I'll try and post some pics.

Martyn Miles
30-05-2016, 20:56
I have acquired a pair of unusual PWB speakers which, I understand from PWB, were fitted with Kef B139 drivers.
They were bought new in the '70s from an audio dealer in Richmond by the person I've bought them
from.
He has never removed the grilles until I asked for pictures.
EMI bass/mid. drivers have been fitted in place of the '139s.
The EMI elliptical driver was well thought of, so perhaps the dealer in Richmond modified them before the sale took place.
I am picking them up soon, so it will be interesting to give them a listen...

struth
30-05-2016, 20:58
might have a set of 139's if your not happy with the emi's. Most of their stuff was good though... good luck

walpurgis
30-05-2016, 21:09
Show us a piccie.

I would not be surprised if PWB tried various drive units, so the EMIs may be original.

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 07:26
Show us a piccie.

I would not be surprised if PWB tried various drive units, so the EMIs may be original.

I have been in touch with May Belt of PWB and sent her a picture of their NS2 speakers that I'm collecting today.
PWB's archives show the NS2 had a T27 and a B139.
The NS4 had four (!) T27s and a B139.

The ones I bought look as though they have a T52 tweeter, but I will find out for sure later today.
It's all rather intriguing...

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 13:04
I have them up and running and they're remarkably good.
The EMI driver ( which is coated ) is quite transparent and the T27 is well, a T27.
A good tweeter...

The bass end is a little 'wooly' as the cabinet is quite resonant.
Considering I was listening to Harbeth P3-ESRs earlier, these PWB's are excellent.

I am still intrigued that PWB told me that a Kef B139 was fitted to this model.
Did the Retailer modify them?
The seller confirmed that he never ever took of the grilles.

Martyn.

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 13:40
I have looked closely at the drivers and there is a gap around the EMI units which is filled by the ( now crumbling ) putty.
The EMI driver was removed and a cut-out for the B139 is there on the baffle.

Whoever fitted the EMI units did a good job.
Screw inserts and a wooden block between the back of the driver and the cabinet rear panel.
Shades of my Radford Bookshelves there...

Struth of this Parish says he may have two B139s, so I may try those.
If all's well the EMI units might be of interest to speaker builders/repairers.

Martyn.

spendorman
31-05-2016, 13:43
B139 cossing over to a T27 might be a problem, T27 does not really go low enough. B139 to T15 is even pushing it a bit.

Any chance of pictures, especially of the bass/ mid units? The part number might be 92390 followed by some letters.

struth
31-05-2016, 13:52
Just checked and i must have moved them on as i cant find that pair or the tweeters...sorry martyn.. Only got a passive rad a set of 3 point 200,s now, plus a plethora of full range drivers i really need to move on. Oh and a set of horn tweeters and ribbon ones. No wonder i cant get moving out there.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEF-B139-SP1044-Pair-bass-drivers-/291775250137?hash=item43ef28fed9:g:81kAAOSw6btXSI2 d

A few on bay.. These are the cheapest

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 14:05
B139 cossing over to a T27 might be a problem, T27 does not really go low enough. B139 to T15 is even pushing it a bit.

Any chance of pictures, especially of the bass/ mid units? The part number might be 92390 followed by some letters.

Please send me your email address and I'll you send pics. of the EMI drivers.

They have numbers printed on the chassis.
I'll check them and post here, and/or email you later.
I think I'll go for the '139s Struth showed me on eBay and sell the EMI units.
There seems a market for them.

By the way, Radford crossed the B139 over to an HF1300 successfully.

Martyn.

walpurgis
31-05-2016, 14:54
By the way, Radford crossed the B139 over to an HF1300 successfully.

Martyn.

Not very successfully I'm afraid. The B139 simply does not do midrange. Above about 800Hz it starts entering a nasty honk zone.

walpurgis
31-05-2016, 14:58
B139 cossing over to a T27 might be a problem, T27 does not really go low enough. B139 to T15 is even pushing it a bit.

Yes. The original KEF Concord and Celeste proved that. The mid was coloured to say the least.

The T27 is far better off working with the EMI drive unit. At least that was designed to work up to about 5kHz.

spendorman
31-05-2016, 15:12
By the way, Radford crossed the B139 over to an HF1300 successfully.

Martyn.

Don't forget, that was a special B139 with a lighter diaphragm, still not ideal in my view.

spendorman
31-05-2016, 15:16
Yes. The original KEF Concord and Celeste proved that. The mid was coloured to say the least.

The T27 is far better off working with the EMI drive unit. At least that was designed to work up to about 5kHz.

I agree, have some Celestes here.

I have seen Martyn's pictures, and the EMI elliptical is of a style I've not seen before, and I've seen a lot! From the look of it, the cone is not too heavy, and the voice coil diameter is not too big, so yes, it should probably work well with the T27.

struth
31-05-2016, 15:18
Better with full range lads. Lol

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 16:09
With advice I've had, I am inclined to stick with the EMI drivers, but it would be interesting to try B139s.
But then, if I didn't like them I'd have to sell them.

Whoever fitted the EMIs knew what he was doing.
The wood blocks to stiffen them to the cabinet back panels was a good idea.
As I said, Radford did it successfully in the Bookshelf model.

That model sounded quite good to me, especially with a Quad 34/303 driving them.
As these PWBs are somewhat different with the EMI ellipticals I would like to keep them
that way.

I am wondering if to fit some bitumatic damping to the cabinets.
It slightly improved the bass end of a pair of original Wharfedale Diamonds.

Aren't loudspeakers fascinating?

Martyn.

spendorman
31-05-2016, 16:49
Looking at Martyn's pictures, the tweeter does not look like a T27 or T52 to me. Looks more like a cone tweeter in it's own separate small enclosure, so it's more likely to go down quite low, therefore perhaps a better match to the B139.

walpurgis
31-05-2016, 17:14
I'm still waiting to see a photo.

spendorman
31-05-2016, 17:19
I'm still waiting to see a photo.

Can I put them up Martyn?

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 17:55
Looking at Martyn's pictures, the tweeter does not look like a T27 or T52 to me. Looks more like a cone tweeter in its own separate small enclosure, so it's more likely to go down quite low, therefore perhaps a better match to the B139.

You are correct.
It is a cone/dome tweeter, a plate over the place where a T27 used to be.
I looked in with a mirror, and you can see the three ( filled ) holes for the T27
mounting plate.
The tweeter has a plastic up over it, sealing it against pressure from inside the box.

This mystery deepens...

As I said previously, the Seller bought them from an audio dealer, F. Cave in Richmond Surrey, over 40 years ago.
He had never removed the grilles in all the years he owned them.

Someone has removed the B139 & T27 and substituted two alternative drive units.
And crossovers ?
I am tempted to remove the square plate holding the tweeters and investigate.

Martyn.

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 17:57
Can I put them up Martyn?

Please do put up the photos.

Martyn.

spendorman
31-05-2016, 18:17
Please do put up the photos.

Martyn.

1706317064170651706617067


Goodmans tweeter?

spendorman
31-05-2016, 18:24
17069One more

walpurgis
31-05-2016, 18:46
I don't think that's an EMI drive unit. It looks like either Fane or Audax to me (having owned both). I suspect Audax is more likely, as I think that's an Audax tweeter. Bit hard to tell from the photo though. The Fane elliptical usually had a Bextrene cone, not paper pulp.

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 19:01
I don't think that's an EMI drive unit. It looks like either Fane or Audax to me (having owned both). I suspect Audax is more likely, as I think that's an Audax tweeter. Bit hard to tell from the photo though. The Fane elliptical usually had a Bextrene cone, not paper pulp.

Useful to know.

It does look like a Bextrene cone.
I was going by the shape of the chassis, etc. and the cork on the front for rear mounting.

I haven't removed the tweeter plate yet.

I was going down the road of fitting B139s, but I think I'll stick with what I have.
After all, it all sounds pretty good...

They are PWB NS2 cabinets, never touched by the owner from new.
Presumably he didn't check when he bought them, why I don't know.

I can only speculate the Retailer changed them and then sold them as PWBs.

Martyn.

walpurgis
31-05-2016, 19:07
Trust me. The B139 would be a disaster!

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 19:51
I am going off any idea of using B139s
and carefully re-assembling these speakers
with the ellipticals I have.

Martyn

Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 20:07
I don't think that's an EMI drive unit. It looks like either Fane or Audax to me (having owned both).

It is deffo an EMI Geoff

Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 20:20
Heres the same style basket not the shape but notice the ribs

walpurgis
31-05-2016, 20:21
http://i67.tinypic.com/2vacpzt.jpg

Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 20:25
No ribs down the side Geoff & the mounting holes have no impressions like Alex pic

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 20:33
Thank you, all, for the pictures and information.
I continue to be intrigued by this continuing speculation on the actual manufacturer of
these drive units.
Come to that, the tweeters as well.

I wonder if those are the original PWB crossovers?

Martyn.

walpurgis
31-05-2016, 20:36
Can't find a picture of the Audax examples. They were very similar too.

Martyn Miles
31-05-2016, 20:52
I recall some Kef and Dalesford chassis/baskets were very similar.
If a particular shape/configuration works I can understand
why different manufacturers would use it.

Martyn.

Martyn Miles
01-06-2016, 07:13
Trust me. The B139 would be a disaster!

The B139 used in the Radford Bookshelf speakers I had were an alternative lighter-weight model Kef made for Arthur Radford.
Radford tried various drive units before setting on the '139.
Pairing it with the Celestion HF1300 was a good move.
Those Bookshelf models are very good.
My friend, an audio engineer, has them but I might get them back sometime.

I still would like to try the B139 instead of these ( unknown make ) elliptical drivers,
to hear what the results would sound like.

Martyn.

spendorman
01-06-2016, 08:11
http://i67.tinypic.com/2vacpzt.jpg

Well, there is no doubting that it says Fane on the label. But the chassis is very EMI like, so is the printing of the date code and part number, and even the small holes for mounting tweeter straps across the unit.

Perhaps EMI made the chassis for Fane?

struth
01-06-2016, 08:28
Fane made some nice full range stuff. Ive a set and they sound very nice indeed

struth
01-06-2016, 08:55
These look similar again from fane out of hestabel speaker.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FANE-HEAVY-DUTY-HIGH-FIDELITY-LOUD-SPEAKER-43-72-FROM-HESTABEL-AD40-free-post-/381646570957?hash=item58dbe885cd:g:Cg8AAOSw0vBUYoh 5

Martyn Miles
01-06-2016, 18:07
I was looking closely at my drivers and pictures of EMI units.
There are many similarities in the chassis/basket between the various drive
units shown here.
I have definitely decided to re-install these drive units
and get the speakers up and running.
It has been fascinating trying to discover what drivers these are...

Martyn.

Martyn Miles
05-06-2016, 08:19
I was looking closely at my drivers and pictures of EMI units.
There are many similarities in the chassis/basket between the various drive
units shown here.
I have definitely decided to re-install these drive units
and get the speakers up and running.
It has been fascinating trying to discover what drivers these are...

Martyn.

I have finished refurbishing the speakers.
There will be some pictures up soon.

They do sound remarkably good...

Martyn.

SPS
05-06-2016, 08:47
Perhaps EMI made the chassis for Fane?

Looking at my hifi year books the fane and EMI are on slightly different size chassis, i would doubt if they where the same maker
Most of the sixties speaker manufacturers had various elliptical drivers in there range
I would like to see and hear one of the large EMI elliptical bass drivers performing i think they where around 19x14

spendorman
05-06-2016, 09:25
Looking at my hifi year books the fane and EMI are on slightly different size chassis, i would doubt if they where the same maker
Most of the sixties speaker manufacturers had various elliptical drivers in there range
I would like to see and hear one of the large EMI elliptical bass drivers performing i think they where around 19x14

Yes, the 19" x 14" EMI should be good. never managed to get one, I do have 14" X 9" EMI's with cast chassis, they are nice.

spendorman
05-06-2016, 09:53
1714117145171421714317144
I have finished refurbishing the speakers.
There will be some pictures up soon.

They do sound remarkably good...

Martyn.

Pics as attachments:

spendorman
05-06-2016, 09:54
17146One more picture:

walpurgis
05-06-2016, 09:56
Yes, the 19" x 14" EMI should be good. never managed to get one, I do have 14" X 9" EMI's with cast chassis, they are nice.

I recall seeing KEF 19" x 14" (or thereabouts) units too. They looked like a big B139 derivative.

Martyn Miles
14-07-2016, 01:26
As I have too many speakers I decided to sell these.
I was rather surprised they were 'snapped up' by someone in China.

They appear to like old LS3/5as, so as these were old British speakers perhaps
they appealed to a Collector...